EU referendum

[Wade Garrett]

Won't the much vaunted TTIP agreement ensure that the US gets what it wants with regard to Europe?

 

Another reason to leave. TTIP is an affront to democracy.

[Wade Garrett]

We may be a bit worse off, we may be better off, we won't know unless we leave.

 

To be honest I made up my mind after watching my wife go through agonising pain waiting ages for a qualified doctor in an overstretched hospital full of Polish and Romanians - in Southampton. My best mate is a builder who is having to compete with Polish guys willing to work for peanuts and a friend of mine had to wait for 2 hours for an ambulance whilst in agony because they were too busy. The housing crisis is a simple supply and demand problem, where is next year's extra 300,000 going to live? And the 300,000 or more that will turn up in 2017?

 

Hard to argue with any of that. It doesn't tend to affect the Westminster elite and the Notting Hill set as much.

[Whitey Grandad]

I don't think you can underestimate how much the need to for Britain to pay off massive war debts affected levels of investment in new models and modernised production. There was also a feeling that we were owed something after six years of hardship and having won WW2. which of coursed the Germans and Japanese didn't have. The wealth of the Americans during the 1950s and 1960s was largely due to a lack of manufacturing competition and it took 50 years for that to fully unwind.

 

What is often not realised is that Britain also received it share of the Marshall Plan money but it was not used to rebuild our industry,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

[buctootim]

What is often not realised is that Britain also received it share of the Marshall Plan money but it was not used to rebuild our industry,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

 

That's a good article Whitey, but it ignores the debt forgiveness Germany received that Britain and others didn't. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015-economic-marshall-plan-debt-relief (its primarily about Greece but has useful side info).

[Whitey Grandad]

That's a good article Whitey, but it ignores the debt forgiveness Germany received that Britain and others didn't. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015-economic-marshall-plan-debt-relief (its primarily about Greece but has useful side info).

 

You are quite right. We often say that we 'won' the war but it bankrupted the country in the process and cost us an empire whilst it was the making of the USA as an industrial giant and a superpower. It all feels like smoke and mirrors to me. Coincidentally I was watching one of the last episodes of 'The World at War' the other evening discussing the economic and social outcome of it all with a very interesting appraisal by a young Stephen E Ambrose (Band of Brothers etc.). We are still living with the consequences of the cataclysmic upheavals of the struggles amongst nations of the last century.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/03/britains-first-world-war-debts-repaid-what-does-it-mean

http://qz.com/290183/in-2014-countries-are-still-paying-off-debt-from-world-war-one/

I particularly like this paragraph:

 

So the solution to this was brokered by the future US vice-president Charles Dawes, who in 1924 proposed that the US lend money to Germany to fund its reparation payments to France and the UK, who in turn would use the money to repay their war debts. The solution was so good that Dawes won the Nobel Peace Prize the next year in recognition. And the plan worked.

 

I guess that means that the Americans leant money to Germany so that it could pay back France and Britain who could then pay the money back to America. In effect Germany took on the burden of the allied debts added to its own reparations as dictated to it at Versailles. No wonder Hitler rose to power.

[melmacian_saint]

Another reason to leave. TTIP is an affront to democracy.

 

Except the UK will 100% not be left out of it even if we leave the EU.

[Wade Garrett]

Except the UK will 100% not be left out of it even if we leave the EU.

 

Not sure any sovereign government with elections to win would impose that. Europe, with no elections or accountability yes.

[CB Fry]

Not sure any sovereign government with elections to win would impose that. Europe, with no elections or accountability yes.

How about the US, they've got elections to win, or is that not sovereign enough for you?

 

If we go out of Europe we'd be utterly helpless in negotiations with the US and we'd be signing up deeper and quicker than the EU ever will.

 

Also, Europe does have elections.

Edited 16 October, 2015 by CB Fry

[Wade Garrett]

How about the US, they've got elections to win, or is that not sovereign enough for you?

 

If we go out of Europe we'd be utterly helpless in negotiations with the US and we'd be signing up deeper and quicker than the EU ever will.

 

Also, Europe does have elections.

 

I don't see it that way CB. Also I don't think the actual decision making in the EU is done by the democratically elected.

 

Just the way I see it.

[BlakeySFC]

How many can you take into your household?

 

3 with ease, 5-6 at a push.

 

If I had any last remaining doubts , you've convinced me - OUT !!!

 

I expected no less from this righty Tory/UKIP loving circle-w@nk of a forum.

[Johnny Bognor]

I expected no less from this righty Tory/UKIP loving circle-w@nk of a forum.

 

This forum is predominently left wing, although I am not sure if anyone buys socialist worker round here anymore or votes for Arthur Scargill for that matter

[BlakeySFC]

This forum is predominently left wing

 

Edited 19 October, 2015 by BlakeySFC

[Johnny Bognor]

 

[buctootim]

 

Johnny, Johnnny, Johnny. That survey was fun and interesting but the results were whack. Hypo and Unbelievable Jeff as left leaning and liberal? Ukipper Wes as political centre? Not really.

 

I'd say there is a reasonable balance of left and right of the people who post in the lounge.

Edited 20 October, 2015 by buctootim

[Johnny Bognor]

Johnny, Johnnny, Johnny. That survey was fun and interesting but the results were whack. Hypo and Unbelievable Jeff as left leaning and liberal? Ukipper Wes as political centre? Not really.

 

I'd say there is a reasonable balance of left and right of the people who post in the lounge.

 

I think it is reflective, but the current cross hairs need to move left and down 4 blocks

[buctootim]

the current cross hairs need to move left and down 4 blocks

 

Agree, that would make it about right. Would make Blakey an off the scale authoritarian though.

[Wade Garrett]

3 with ease, 5-6 at a push.

 

 

 

I expected no less from this righty Tory/UKIP loving circle-w@nk of a forum.

 

Dont be fooled into thinking anti Euro feeling is confined to the right. There are plenty of lefties who feel the same way. Lots of working class union members are having wages and conditions eroded by the euro influx. Would be churlish to deny otherwise.

[Johnny Bognor]

Dont be fooled into thinking anti Euro feeling is confined to the right. There are plenty of lefties who feel the same way. Lots of working class union members are having wages and conditions eroded by the euro influx. Would be churlish to deny otherwise.

 

Ah, but it's fun bashing those tory ****s

[Wes Tender]

Johnny, Johnnny, Johnny. That survey was fun and interesting but the results were whack. Hypo and Unbelievable Jeff as left leaning and liberal? Ukipper Wes as political centre? Not really.

 

I'd say there is a reasonable balance of left and right of the people who post in the lounge.

 

The trouble with somebody applying labels to others, is that when others wish to believe them, they stick. Despite saying on more than one occasion that I am a Conservative, you label me as a UKIP voter. Well, I did vote for them in the European Elections, as did many others whose traditional allegiance is with other parties, but that is one single incidence against dozens upon dozens of votes for the Conservative candidate in various elections since I was 21.

 

The trouble is that some have difficulty in differentiating between parties when some important issues overlap party boundaries. Believe it or not, concerns about immigration and membership of the EU is not the exclusive preserve of UKIP. There are factions of the other major parties who also share those concerns. Wade Garrett recognises this, but it seems beyond you.

[Wade Garrett]

Liam Fox reckons Cameron is making a prat of himself crawling round Europe begging for scraps. He says that Cameron's requests won't do much to change things anyway.

[badgerx16]

Liam Fox reckons Cameron is making a prat of himself crawling round Europe begging for scraps. He says that Cameron's requests won't do much to change things anyway.

 

He's almost certainly correct.

[cambsaint]

Having previously been pro-Europe with varying enthusiasm, I am rather surprised that one thing has changed my mind.

That is the Eastern European leaders saying they will not allow us to make our own policy regarding benefits.

I was prepared to accept free movement as I believed that our economy needed an influx of younger workers to pay the pensions of my generation.

However while being prepared to accept the original terms with a veto, I cannot accept that British policy can be made in Poland, hungary etc.

I will therefore now vote to leave, unless we get very significant progress.

Albeit with considerable regret and trepidation.

[Wes Tender]

There is an effective riposte to these Eastern European leaders who will not allow us to impose a four year ban on benefit claims for their countries' nationals. Offer them the alternative; that we will pay the benefits for their unemployed nationals, but bill them so that we are reimbursed.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Having previously been pro-Europe with varying enthusiasm, I am rather surprised that one thing has changed my mind.

That is the Eastern European leaders saying they will not allow us to make our own policy regarding benefits.

I was prepared to accept free movement as I believed that our economy needed an influx of younger workers to pay the pensions of my generation.

However while being prepared to accept the original terms with a veto, I cannot accept that British policy can be made in Poland, hungary etc.

I will therefore now vote to leave, unless we get very significant progress.

Albeit with considerable regret and trepidation.

 

Has it finally sunk in ? We've been on this journey since day one .

 

The EU want the relationship between nations to be the same as England is with Scotland . It is unthinkable that a Scotsman could work in London and not claim inwork benefits or send his child benefit home to Jockland . That's how the EU view a Polish worker in the UK . He is a citizen of the EUSSR & is therefore entitled to the same treatment as you or I .Our VAT rates are subject to European laws , now it's sinking in that our benefit system is as well. If a country can't set its own tax rates, can't decide who receives benefits and can't decide who is allowed in, can it call its self an independent nation?

[derry]

In 1975 I voted to remain in a common market. In the referendum I will vote to come out of what the cheating politicians have made it into without a mandate from the people.

[Colinjb]

In 1975 I voted to remain in a common market. In the referendum I will vote to come out of what the cheating politicians have made it into without a mandate from the people.

 

Nutshell

[Batman]

will vote out.

[TheCholulaKid]

 

Look at how many of those in the bottom left no longer post here. Kinda tells a story.

[badgerx16]

Look at how many of those in the bottom left no longer post here. Kinda tells a story.

 

It's the quiet ones you need to watch out for.

[Wade Garrett]

I am voting out, even if Cameron gets his 4 conditions agreed.

 

We still wouldn't have full control of our borders, and some of his conditions seem so wishy washy we wouldn't see any difference anyway.

[JakkoUK]

I'm voting in, solely to protect my own future. I'm currently studying Wildlife Conservation and many of the jobs tied in with this sector of work rely on EU Directives. Without the EU influence the UK has little to no protection for wildlife and their habitats, so will be a great loss in that aspect.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm voting in, solely to protect my own future. I'm currently studying Wildlife Conservation and many of the jobs tied in with this sector of work rely on EU Directives. Without the EU influence the UK has little to no protection for wildlife and their habitats, so will be a great loss in that aspect.

 

We are considerably better qualified to regulate on our own wildlife than somebody from the EU. If there was ever an example of one size does not fit all it is conservation.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm voting in, solely to protect my own future. I'm currently studying Wildlife Conservation and many of the jobs tied in with this sector of work rely on EU Directives. Without the EU influence the UK has little to no protection for wildlife and their habitats, so will be a great loss in that aspect.

 

Fair enough. But isn't that like saying a fisherman would vote in as well because there are directives on fishing?

[Batman]

I'm voting in, solely to protect my own future. I'm currently studying Wildlife Conservation and many of the jobs tied in with this sector of work rely on EU Directives. Without the EU influence the UK has little to no protection for wildlife and their habitats, so will be a great loss in that aspect.

 

couldnt we protect wildlife outside of the EU

[Verbal]

couldnt we protect wildlife outside of the EU

 

Where do you have in mind? Uzbekistan?

[Lord Duckhunter]

couldnt we protect wildlife outside of the EU

 

The Australians , Canadaians , Swiss, Norweigans , and all other non eussr countries , don't give a flying **** about wildlife . Spainish Bulls are particularly grateful to the wonderful EU and the protection it brings them .

 

**** the poor whose wages are kept low , we need to stay in the EU so that lefties can get jobs conserving wildlife.

[Sevvy]

I'd vote to leave just so the Scots have an excuse for a second referendum and hopefully vote to leave.. I am fed up with their constant moaning,the government has helped them too much giving them shipbuilding etc and they can't even get that right.

[Sour Mash]

What a lot of us knew anyway. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12063052/Mass-migration-driving-down-wages-offered-to-British-jobseekers.html.

[buctootim]

What a lot of us knew anyway. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12063052/Mass-migration-driving-down-wages-offered-to-British-jobseekers.html.

 

Thats not an EU issue though. All industrialised countries have mass immigration, exactly because it drives the wages cost down. Its the interests of big companies which drives government policy - not the interests of existing citizens. We had mass immigration in the 1950s and 60s before the EU and we have it now. Regardless of what you're told by the politicians before an election it wont change whether in or out.

 

[aintforever]

Thats not an EU issue though. All industrialised countries have mass immigration, exactly because it drives the wages cost down. Its the interests of big companies which drives government policy - not the interests of existing citizens. We had mass immigration in the 1950s and 60s before the EU and we have it now. Regardless of what you're told by the politicians before an election it wont change whether in or out.

 

 

Not sure of the relevance of historic migration - we have never experienced immigration on this level before. At least leaving the EU will mean our government can control it if they want to (which they probably will).

[buctootim]

leaving the EU will mean our government can control it if they want to (which they probably will).

 

Thats the point. They wont. How do we know? because they haven't significantly reduced non EU immigration, which they have the power to do. The majority of immigration comes from outside the EU. Kicking the EU is just an easy target which makes people feel good but deflects from the real issue - the government could reduce immigration but they dont want to, despite all the rhetoric and promises. Nett migration from the EU is relatively minor (the difference between UK citizens living in the EU and EU ciiitzens living here). People are angry about the wrong target, just as intended.

 

 

Edited 23 December, 2015 by buctootim

[Sour Mash]

Thats the point. They wont. How do we know? because they haven't significantly reduced non EU immigration, which they have the power to do. The majority of immigration comes from outside the EU. Kicking the EU is just an easy target which makes people feel good but deflects from the real issue - the government could reduce immigration but they dont want to, despite all the rhetoric and promises. Nett migration from the EU is relatively minor (the difference between UK citizens living in the EU and EU ciiitzens living here). People are angry about the wrong target, just as intended.

 

 

 

You're working on the basis that all immigration is the same, when clearly it isn't.

[buctootim]

You're working on the basis that all immigration is the same, when clearly it isn't.

 

Thats right. We import mostly working age, tax paying people and export to France and Spain millions of retired people who need lots of healthcare. Its not fair, I agree.

[Sour Mash]

Thats right. We import mostly working age, tax paying people and export to France and Spain millions of retired people who need lots of healthcare. Its not fair, I agree.

 

So you think all our immigration is the same? Same industries, skills, language?

 

And do we not block significant numbers of people from migrating to the UK from outside the EU?

 

If France and Spain have a problem with Brits migrating to their countries, I'd fully support them. Can't he's too much of a campaign from them on that, from them on the Brits spending their substantial pensions in restaurants, shops, golf courses, not diluting and depressing wages, unfair indeed.

[buctootim]

So you think all our immigration is the same? Same industries, skills, language?

 

You seem to be implying migrants from outside the EU are specialist skilled workers the UK needs but migrants from the EU are basic education unskilled workers who depress wages. Interesting idea, you might change my mind if you can prove it rather than just assert it. Go on then post up some stats.

[Orange]

You seem to be implying migrants from outside the EU are specialist skilled workers the UK needs but migrants from the EU are basic education unskilled workers who depress wages. Interesting idea, you might change my mind if you can prove it rather than just assert it. Go on then post up some stats.

 

The point is why should we discriminate on what continent someone was born on? Why should we commit to unlimited/unrestricted immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe, and then make it so difficult for someone outside the EU to gain residence even if they have much better reasons/are more qualified to move here? Makes no sense to me.

[Sour Mash]

You seem to be implying migrants from outside the EU are specialist skilled workers the UK needs but migrants from the EU are basic education unskilled workers who depress wages. Interesting idea, you might change my mind if you can prove it rather than just assert it. Go on then post up some stats.

I'm not "implying" all are one way or another, but this might help you understand a little easier https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/afghanistan/work/longer_than_six_months

[buctootim]

The point is why should we discriminate on what continent someone was born on? Why should we commit to unlimited/unrestricted immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe, and then make it so difficult for someone outside the EU to gain residence even if they have much better reasons/are more qualified to move here? Makes no sense to me.

 

Because of reciprocity - the equal right of UK citizens to move to the EU countries - something which doesn't exist for the other countries you refer to.

Edited 23 December, 2015 by buctootim

[Sour Mash]

The point is why should we discriminate on what continent someone was born on? Why should we commit to unlimited/unrestricted immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe, and then make it so difficult for someone outside the EU to gain residence even if they have much better reasons/are more qualified to move here? Makes no sense to me.

All immigration is the same to him. A skilled, in demand professional from Australia is the same as an unskilled labourer from Romania in his eyes it seems.

[Sour Mash]

So you're back tracking on the "not all immigration is the same" schtick? Probably wise, as Im sure you know the large majority of non EU immigration is students, followed by family dependants joining people here followed by a long distant third by labour visas.

You're getting more and more confused.