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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

    • Leave Before - Leave Now
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    • Leave Before - Remain Now
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    • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now
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    • Remain Before - Remain Now
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    • Remain Before - Leave Now
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    • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now
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    • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now
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    • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?
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    • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding
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7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

 

To be fair, it's pretty much just CB Fry that claims that Europe referendums are once in a lifetime events.

 

 

They probably are, but there’s absolutely nothing to stop having them every 3 months if enough people wanted it. I don’t understand what Mystic is on about. It looks like he’s implying that Leavers have somehow decided that’s it, we’re out of the EU forever, finito... Maybe his ire should be directed at Remainers who haven’t got the balls or the work ethic to do what Nigel did. 

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17 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

 

To be fair, it's pretty much just CB Fry that claims that Europe referendums are once in a lifetime events.

But then goes on to contradict himself as he expects a government to be elected 'sometime in the future' that will join the single market again :mcinnes:

He seems to have forgotten that we have elections every 5 years so we could rejoin Europe as early as June 2024 if there is enough support for anyone campaigining for the country to do so....

 

It's pretty spectacular how thick you are, so really well done.

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1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 Maybe his ire should be directed at Remainers who haven’t got the balls or the work ethic to do what Nigel did. 

Give them a chance, we’ve only been out for 26 days. The rubber-faced cunt must have spent half his life trying to get us out.

Any rejoin movement will obviously take time, most people were sick to death about Brexit ages ago, that’s why ‘get Brexit done’ appealed to so many regardless of their views. If the clusterfuck continues in the current vein then it probably won’t be too far away tho.

Edited by aintforever
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The comparison is not between could not and would not but rather should not.

 

There was a referendum in 1975 about the subject, which is probably within the lifetime of some of the people on here, so we should not have overturned that one when people changed their mind? I understand and acknowledge peoples decision, I think they made a bad decision and I would encourage people to subsequently change their stance. It is not like UKIP went away after each election it failed to become the government. Bad legal decisions get overturned, bad policies are reversed and bad government gets voted out I do not see that this is any different. You can accept something without liking it and work on doing something about it. In a democracy that would be trying to persuade a majority of people to side with you when voting, rather than taking over a legislative building, while carry flags bearing the name of your cult leader and looking to hang people insufficiently rabid for the cause as an example.

 

And yes I think people should work on persuading others that this should be reversed, not by some technical spanner jamming in the works, but building a consensus around an issue, but that obviously takes work, time and probably more than 160 characters in a tweet. Once you have a sure position of majority then work on reversing this, a ham fisted failure is worse than taking your time to do it properly. But as I currently live in the US the only real consequence will be when I visit Europe for work I will have to line up with the Americans rather than zip through the shorter EU line.

Edited by Mystic Force
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1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The ardent anti-Brexiters have had the last four years to get something going, not just 26 days.  How much time do they need?

Absolutely agree. Almost eerie silence from them. Four and a half years have passed and the entire Europhile/remain movement have done absolutely nothing whatsoever. Not a whisper. They've just let Brexit carry on and happen.

Pretty unbelievable really. But you have to admire their respect for the democratic will of the people.

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The Guardian Fri 10 Jul 2020 18.43 BST.

Quote

UK plan to shun EU vaccine scheme ‘unforgivable’, say critics

Health secretary says government believes there is a quicker way to source a coronavirus vaccine for Britons

Alex Harris, the head of global policy at the Wellcome Trust, said the EU scheme had been “morally right” and called for reassurance that the UK was not setting itself up as a competitor to the bloc. “The EU vaccine initiative’s cap on how many doses participating countries get is the best way to ensure there is enough vaccine for those in need in the rest of the world,” he said. “Delivering vaccine according to need and not who can pay the highest price is not just morally right, but also the fastest way to end this pandemic. We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
A spokesman for the European commission said its negotiations with manufacturers would continue and that it was believed the EU remained a big enough market for the right prices to be negotiated. He said: “The negotiations are ongoing with a series of vaccine producers. These are intensive negotiations which the commission is carrying out on behalf of the different member states. “The fact that the UK has apparently said it would not join up to whatever scheme, whatever contracts, we are able to negotiate is definitely not something which is going to inform our negotiations. We believe that the EU, with its significant population, represents an interesting market for the companies with which we are negotiating.”
In response to the UK government’s decision to walk away from the latest initiative, Munira Wilson, the Liberal Democrats’ health spokeswoman, said: “When coronavirus is such a threat to people’s lives and livelihoods, ministers should leave no stone unturned in their bid to end the pandemic. This government’s stubborn unwillingness to work with the European Union through the current crisis is unforgivable. The crisis does not stop at any national border. It is about time the prime minister started showing leadership, including fully participating in all EU efforts to secure critical medical supplies and a vaccine.”

 

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10 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

The Guardian Fri 10 Jul 2020 18.43 BST.

 

Indeed. An unforeseen benefit of not being in the EU was a more effective procurement process for vaccines. The EU signed vaccine contracts three months after the UK and are now bitching that they've not got their fair share. They dragged their feet, as they usually do, but somehow it's someone else's fault

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20 minutes ago, Johnny Bognor said:

Indeed. An unforeseen benefit of not being in the EU was a more effective procurement process for vaccines. The EU signed vaccine contracts three months after the UK and are now bitching that they've not got their fair share. They dragged their feet, as they usually do, but somehow it's someone else's fault

As has been stated before, the UK was always able to do it's own thing with vaccine procurement, and could have done so without Brexit. Nothing in the EU's laws and procedures prohibited this.

Edited by badgerx16
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58 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Absolutely agree. Almost eerie silence from them. Four and a half years have passed and the entire Europhile/remain movement have done absolutely nothing whatsoever. Not a whisper. They've just let Brexit carry on and happen.

Pretty unbelievable really. But you have to admire their respect for the democratic will of the people.

And yet no "rejoin" campaign off the ground yet. Four years and not even a single leaflet produced for the campaign.

WTF is all your waffle regarding eerie silence about - or are you just making up your usual pony and pretending that's what I said?

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12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

As has been stated before, the UK was always able to do it's own thing with vaccine procurement, and could have done so without Brexit. Nothing in the EU's laws and procedures prohibited this.

Able, yes, as was the rest of the EU.

Obliged to toe the line and work together as a bloc is the reality for those that weren't planning to leave - well, except Germany who have apparently gone behind every one else's backs and arranged their own deals on to of what the bloc agreed...

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50 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Able, yes, as was the rest of the EU.

Obliged to toe the line and work together as a bloc is the reality for those that weren't planning to leave - well, except Germany who have apparently gone behind every one else's backs and arranged their own deals on to of what the bloc agreed...

All 27 EU countries followed the strategy published by the Commission here. I particularly like the statement from my favourite Cypriot and EU Commissioner for Health and Food Safety Stella Kyriakides who said in the strategy document: 

Quote

Working together will increase our chances of securing access to a safe and effective vaccine at the scale we need and as quickly as possible. It will ensure fair and equitable access for all across the EU and globally, thus offering the best opportunity of finding a permanent exit strategy from the COVID-19 crisis. This is the EU at its best: pooling resources, joining efforts, bringing tangible results to the everyday lives of people. No one is safe until everyone is safe and we will leave no stones unturned in our efforts to protect EU and global citizens.

Yesterday she said:

Quote

You know that AstraZeneca's vaccine is currently in the final stages of the approval process with the European Medicines Agency. If all requirements are met, the European Medicines Agency could recommend market authorisation by the end of this week. But there is a problem on the supply side. Last Friday, the company AstraZeneca surprisingly informed the Commission and the European Union Member States that it intends to supply considerably fewer doses in the coming weeks than agreed and announced. This new schedule is not acceptable to the European Union. That is why I wrote a letter to the company at the weekend in which I asked important and serious questions. The European Union has pre-financed the development of the vaccine and the production and wants to see the return. The European Union wants to know exactly which doses have been produced by AstraZeneca and where exactly so far and if or to whom they have been delivered.

Another unelected, unaccountable and totally useless EU bureaucrat. I read the above press release from this no mark, but failed to see the word "sorry" or "apology", anywhere.  Still, it's not her fault. It's the fault of a UK/Swedish company who promised it would do it's best to produce a novel unapproved vaccine and supply doses to the EU, at cost. 

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2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And yet no "rejoin" campaign off the ground yet. Four years and not even a single leaflet produced for the campaign.

WTF is all your waffle regarding eerie silence about - or are you just making up your usual pony and pretending that's what I said?

As in previous post, 26 days. 

You keep reaching for those new heights, kid.

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4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The ardent anti-Brexiters have had the last four years to get something going, not just 26 days.  How much time do they need?

Yeah great idea, start a re-join campaign before we have left - that would have worked. :lol:

Thick as fuck as usual.

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1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

All 27 EU countries followed the strategy published by the Commission here. I particularly like the statement from my favourite Cypriot and EU Commissioner for Health and Food Safety Stella Kyriakides who said in the strategy document: 

Yesterday she said:

Another unelected, unaccountable and totally useless EU bureaucrat. I read the above press release from this no mark, but failed to see the word "sorry" or "apology", anywhere.  Still, it's not her fault. It's the fault of a UK/Swedish company who promised it would do it's best to produce a novel unapproved vaccine and supply doses to the EU, at cost. 

We are out of the EU, there is no need to keep trying to justify that decision. You are demonstrating a very worrying obsession.

Edited by badgerx16
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1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

All 27 EU countries followed the strategy published by the Commission here. I particularly like the statement from my favourite Cypriot and EU Commissioner for Health and Food Safety Stella Kyriakides who said in the strategy document: 

Yesterday she said:

Another unelected, unaccountable and totally useless EU bureaucrat. I read the above press release from this no mark, but failed to see the word "sorry" or "apology", anywhere.  Still, it's not her fault. It's the fault of a UK/Swedish company who promised it would do it's best to produce a novel unapproved vaccine and supply doses to the EU, at cost. 

WTF are you whittering on about. The EU working as a collective have negotiated some better terms then we did for purchasing the different vaccines and the Cypriot bloke is stating a fact (I know you hate facts), that by working as a block smaller countries like his are not disadvantaged by the buying power of bigger neighbours.

The other bit is just the EU wanting the terms of the deal to be honoured by the pharmaceutical companies, standard contractual stuff and certainly nothing to get so upset by. As for unelected, are you saying that you would get all angsty if Dido Harding or Kate Bingham, our bureaucrats, came out and said this. So if the EU stops exports if vaccine to us, is Kate Bingham expected to stay mute?

You just moan out loud without silently stress testing any of your thoughts.

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9 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

WTF are you whittering on about. The EU working as a collective have negotiated some better terms then we did for purchasing the different vaccines and the Cypriot bloke is stating a fact (I know you hate facts), that by working as a block smaller countries like his are not disadvantaged by the buying power of bigger neighbours.

Here's a fact for you, genius. the Cypriot bloke, Stella Kyriakides:

 

Stella_Kyriakides_(Cyprus).jpg

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3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

As has been stated before, the UK was always able to do it's own thing with vaccine procurement, and could have done so without Brexit. Nothing in the EU's laws and procedures prohibited this.

We have been able to do our own thing, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the EU's handling of vaccines as been nothing short of a shambles

"The EU is acting 'slowly, bureaucratically and protectionist... and if something goes wrong, it's everyone else's fault" fumed a front-page editorial in Die Zeit, one of Germany's best-respected broadsheets. The German's are now mugging the EU off LOL

 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Bognor said:

We have been able to do our own thing, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the EU's handling of vaccines as been nothing short of a shambles

"The EU is acting 'slowly, bureaucratically and protectionist... and if something goes wrong, it's everyone else's fault" fumed a front-page editorial in Die Zeit, one of Germany's best-respected broadsheets. The German's are now mugging the EU off LOL

 

The fact that the EU is having issues is not an indication of a benefit to the UK from Brexit, and it is more than disingenuous for certain posters to claim it is.

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Despite being very pro-EU it is becoming increasingly obvious that those in charge have rather fucked up when it comes to the vaccines.

I'm very glad, despite my loathing of them, that HMG ordered big and ordered early and that they left the Royal Logistical Corp to roll out the program. 

Criticism and credit where it's due.

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More EU fun and games, here.

Quote

The European Commission has demanded that AstraZeneca diverts tens of millions of coronavirus jabs made in British factories to the EU as the row between Brussels and the pharma giant deepened on Wednesday. 

EU officials said UK-made supplies from the two British plants should be diverted to the bloc or AZ would face legal action for breach of contract and efforts to recoup Brussels' roughly €300 million (£265.3 million) investment in vaccine production.

The European Commission's chief spokesman said: "If UK plants are working better, are we expecting UK plants to deliver doses to the EU? Yes we do." That was part of the contract signed with AstraZeneca, the spokesman said.

I look forward to the Remainers on here justifying that panicked response by the ever classy EU.

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3 hours ago, aintforever said:

Yeah great idea, start a re-join campaign before we have left - that would have worked. :lol:

Thick as fuck as usual.

Four years to organise, find a leader, get a coherent message together, design a leaflet.

What has been achieved, fuck all.

Stop whining about it and get those winning plans in place - obviously not you, but someone else!  You didn't have the cohones to vote one way or the other, no chance you'll have the stones required to get something this big off the ground ;) 

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1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

The fact that the EU is having issues is not an indication of a benefit to the UK from Brexit, and it is more than disingenuous for certain posters to claim it is.

It highlights the inefficiencies of the EU when it comes to negotiating... anything from trade deals to vaccines

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47 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

More EU fun and games, here.

I look forward to the Remainers on here justifying that panicked response by the ever classy EU.

A reasoned explanation from the CEO of AZ here

Essentially he's saying that EU processing is experiencing similar 'teething' problems to those encountered in the UK, however, the UK is three months ahead in terms of production due to signing the agreements three months earlier!

This quote from him is enlightening :

Quote

The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said, “ok, we're going to do our best, we’re going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind UK”. We knew it was a super stretch goal and we know it's a big issue, this pandemic. But our contract is not a contractual commitment. It's a best effort. Basically we said we're going to try our best, but we can't guarantee we're going to succeed. In fact, getting there, we are a little bit delayed”.

 

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Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

A reasoned explanation from the CEO of AZ here

Essentially he's saying that EU processing is experiencing similar 'teething' problems to those encountered in the UK, however, the UK is three months ahead in terms of production due to signing the agreements three months earlier!

This quote from him is enlightening :

 

Also no mention of the fact that the AZ vaccine is yet to be approved by the EU. What a shower of shit they are.

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34 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Four years to organise, find a leader, get a coherent message together, design a leaflet.

What has been achieved, fuck all.

Stop whining about it and get those winning plans in place - obviously not you, but someone else!  You didn't have the cohones to vote one way or the other, no chance you'll have the stones required to get something this big off the ground ;) 

I'm more than happy to stay out of the EU if it's going to be a great success like you and the other geniuses on here say, as I said and you typically failed to grasp, any rejoin campaign will depend on how it turns out. It's not rocket science.

We're not all weirdo jihadi obsessives like you and the Village Idiot, if Brexit turns out to be a good move then fantastic If it turns out to be a cluster-fuck, like it is looking, then I will look forward to going back in.

 

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9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I'm more than happy to stay out of the EU if it's going to be a great success like you and the other geniuses on here say, as I said and you typically failed to grasp, any rejoin campaign will depend on how it turns out. It's not rocket science.

We're not all weirdo jihadi obsessives like you and the Village Idiot, if Brexit turns out to be a good move then fantastic If it turns out to be a cluster-fuck, like it is looking, then I will look forward to going back in.

 

That's unlike you not to have the balls to make a decision and sit on the fence, oh, wait, no, that's not right is it!

What about your obsessed weirdos like Tamesaint and Unbelievable Jeff (same person) who have stated they will never accept Brexit - surely they would have a campaign to re-join up and running?

What happened to your 'we've only been out 26 days' mantra, or does that only apply to remain movements, given that you've decided that Brexit is looking like a cluster-fuck after only 27 days :mcinnes:  

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23 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

That's unlike you not to have the balls to make a decision and sit on the fence, oh, wait, no, that's not right is it!

What about your obsessed weirdos like Tamesaint and Unbelievable Jeff (same person) who have stated they will never accept Brexit - surely they would have a campaign to re-join up and running?

What happened to your 'we've only been out 26 days' mantra, or does that only apply to remain movements, given that you've decided that Brexit is looking like a cluster-fuck after only 27 days :mcinnes:  

You were a lot funnier and not quite as thick when you posted as Heisenberg. 

Edited by Tamesaint
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15 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

#obsessed

He wets himself with excitement at one aspect of the fight against Covid whilst conveniently forgetting that the UK has the worst Covid performance  in the world.

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46 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

That's unlike you not to have the balls to make a decision and sit on the fence, oh, wait, no, that's not right is it!

What about your obsessed weirdos like Tamesaint and Unbelievable Jeff (same person) who have stated they will never accept Brexit - surely they would have a campaign to re-join up and running?

What happened to your 'we've only been out 26 days' mantra, or does that only apply to remain movements, given that you've decided that Brexit is looking like a cluster-fuck after only 27 days :mcinnes:  

Brexit looks to me like a cluster-fuck so far yes, It’s early days though so I’m happy to see how it pans out. I didn’t buy most of project fear, at the moment it just seems like a lot of time, resources and money used up just to make the country a little bit worse off.

As I have said before, any rejoin campaign would only make sense after the full effects of Brexit become clear so I wouldn’t read anything into the fact that there are no rejoin leaflets on your doormat yet.

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5 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Here's a fact for you, genius. the Cypriot bloke, Stella Kyriakides:

 

Stella_Kyriakides_(Cyprus).jpg

Is that all you've got, the rest of my post must have been spot on then. I guess either my brain read 'Stelios' or my unconscious bias thought it would be a man, must be time to renew my public sector mandatory training.

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4 hours ago, View From The Top said:

Despite being very pro-EU it is becoming increasingly obvious that those in charge have rather fucked up when it comes to the vaccines.

I'm very glad, despite my loathing of them, that HMG ordered big and ordered early and that they left the Royal Logistical Corp to roll out the program. 

Criticism and credit where it's due.

Listening in a bit on Radio 4, they really did fuck it up, took far too long to finalise their advanced payment agreements and wanted the same delivery schedule as the Brits for a cheaper cost. AZ said they would make their best efforts and now the EU have to own the position they are in, the next move will be interesting.

Amoungst all the covid fuck ups the government have driven the vaccine procurement process well.

Edited by Fan The Flames
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16 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Is that all you've got, the rest of my post must have been spot on then. I guess either my brain read 'Stelios' or my unconscious bias thought it would be a man, must be time to renew my public sector mandatory training.

I must admit, you were spot on with this gem:

Quote

The EU working as a collective have negotiated some better terms then we did for purchasing the different vaccines.

You're a moron....

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31 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Is that all you've got, the rest of my post must have been spot on then. I guess either my brain read 'Stelios' or my unconscious bias thought it would be a man, must be time to renew my public sector mandatory training.

What makes you think Stelios would be a man & not a chick, or even a trans in the process of losing their tackle. Check your bias. 

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46 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

I must admit, you were spot on with this gem:

You're a moron....

Their purchase price is lower than ours, because they committed to buying more and possibly because they paid more up front (this is just an educated guess and maybe the reason why they are so pissed with AZ and Pfizer). Their larger buying power got a better deal, you know ordinary economics stuff that shouldn't be beyond even you.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What makes you think Stelios would be a man & not a chick, or even a trans in the process of losing their tackle. Check your bias. 

I'm all over the place, tomorrow I'm going to re-commit, I'm going to have to wear my ally rainbow lanyard and 'Some people are gay, get over it badge'.

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7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Source?

The link I posted to the AZ CEO statement said that they would not divulge details of the contract due to an NDA. Have you a link to them paying less?

There are clues out there, even with everybody supposedly signed up to NDAs;

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-pfizer-astrazeneca-moderna-vaccine-eu-revealed-belgian-mp-2020-12?r=US&IR=T

"For example, the EU appears to be paying 24% less for shots of the Pfizer vaccine compared with the US, the Guardian reported, citing analysis from Bernstein Research. The EU contributed significant funding to BioNTech, who developed the vaccine for Pfizer.

Similarly, the US is paying $4 a dose for the vaccine produced by AstraZeneca and developed in Oxford, UK, while the EU will pay $2.18 (€1.78,) Bernstein said."

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1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Source?

The link I posted to the AZ CEO statement said that they would not divulge details of the contract due to an NDA. Have you a link to them paying less?

Two days ago the EU were complaining that AZ were honoring deals that were paying a higher price for the vaccine. The CE of AZ came out and denied the suggestion that they were selling to the 'highest bidder'.

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39 minutes ago, trousers said:

Does it matter if we paid more? 

It all has to be paid for in the end but in the scheme of thing it doesn't really matter.

It came up because GM was mocking a Cypriot trans EU bureaucrat lauding their collective bargaining. Although he's not reveling in their pain, no it's because he feels sorry for all the people.

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