buctootim Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Here's the aforementioned Corbyn interview He objected to a general shoot to kill policy and instead backed proportionate force, including deadly force if necessary. No-one in their right minds would want security services given a blanket right to shoot to kill. Otherwise you end up like the UIS where you can get shot for running away from a traffic officer. Their are plenty of real views to debate. Theres no need to make views up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 He objected to a general shoot to kill policy and instead backed proportionate force, including deadly force if necessary. No-one in their right minds would want security services given a blanket right to shoot to kill. Otherwise you end up like the UIS where you can get shot for running away from a traffic officer. Their are plenty of real views to debate. Theres no need to make views up. do you think he was commenting on the US shoot to kill policy in the first place? or the current one used by UK security services that he now all of a sudden defends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 do you think he was commenting on the US shoot to kill policy in the first place? or the current one used by UK security services that he now all of a sudden defends? This is from 18 months ago. You do the maths. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/17/jeremy-corbyn-allow-shoot-to-kill-exceptional-circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 do you think he was commenting on the US shoot to kill policy in the first place? or the current one used by UK security services that he now all of a sudden defends? What do you think, oops i forgot you dont think you just react! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 This is from 18 months ago. You do the maths. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/17/jeremy-corbyn-allow-shoot-to-kill-exceptional-circumstancesbut it is not cut and dried is it. I feel for the Policeman with the gun who has to decide whether he is allowed to shoot or not. A split second and he might be dead himself if he is not sure of his position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 but it is not cut and dried is it. I feel for the Policeman with the gun who has to decide whether he is allowed to shoot or not. A split second and he might be dead himself if he is not sure of his position What Corbyn has said is no different to what happens already - shootings must be within the law. The whole argument about shoot to kill is a political construct designed only to portray him as soft on crime and terror. In reality there is no civil shoot to kill policy and anybody authorising / working to one would be in court on murder charges. What we have is a minimum necessary force policy, which is what everybody, Tories, Labour and police have worked to for decades, if not centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 What Corbyn has said is no different to what happens already - shootings must be within the law. The whole argument about shoot to kill is a political construct designed only to portray him as soft on crime and terror. In reality there is no civil shoot to kill policy and anybody authorising / working to one would be in court on murder charges. What we have is a minimum necessary force policy, which is what everybody, Tories, Labour and police have worked to for decades, if not centuries. It comes down if you believe he is a weak man who thinks that he can be soft on terrorist regimes/groups. Personally I dont think he would give the Police etc the backing that most of us want. He may of course being portrayed wrongly but his actions and words have hardly been convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 You show me a police officer who believes they are getting the full support of government and I'll show you a nurse who feels overpaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Anyone who wants Abbott in charge of law & order is bonkers. She couldn't run a bath. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Been busy all day & now watching the news. Seems Corbyn has called for May to resign. Funny I thought there was an election on Thursday. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Been busy all day & now watching the news. Seems Corbyn has called for May to resign. Funny I thought there was an election on Thursday. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So has Steve Hilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Been busy all day & now watching the news. Seems Corbyn has called for May to resign. Funny I thought there was an election on Thursday. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk On sky news they show Jezza getting really angry when this is pointed out to him. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 So has Steve Hilton. Strangely Steve Hilton has a TV show starting on Fox News today... It's almost as if he's chucking something out to seek publicity. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 (edited) Strangely Steve Hilton has a TV show starting on Fox News today... It's almost as if he's chucking something out to seek publicity. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk I didn't realise you were telepathic and knew his inner motives, Les mini me. Edited 5 June, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Such a gutsy leader our Theresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millbrook Saint Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Such a gutsy leader our Theresa Without trying to be rude, you do understand politics do you? Theresa May will hopefully be the one who has to deal with Trump in the future, getting into a public spat is not what she would want to do, and nor should she, no matter how the press try and goad her into it. I'm sure she will raise any concerns with him in private, which is how it should be. It's nice and easy for people in other parties who know they have no real chance of having to deal with Trump to get on their high horse and have a go but the prime minister has to show a bit more class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Without trying to be rude, you do understand politics do you? Theresa May will hopefully be the one who has to deal with Trump in the future, getting into a public spat is not what she would want to do, and nor should she, no matter how the press try and goad her into it. I'm sure she will raise any concerns with him in private, which is how it should be. It's nice and easy for people in other parties who know they have no real chance of having to deal with Trump to get on their high horse and have a go but the prime minister has to show a bit more class. Agree. Trump puts people between a rock and a hard place with these sort of antics. I'm sure she thinks he's a dinlow and a liability but saying it isn't going to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Without trying to be rude, you do understand politics do you? Theresa May will hopefully be the one who has to deal with Trump in the future, getting into a public spat is not what she would want to do, and nor should she, no matter how the press try and goad her into it. I'm sure she will raise any concerns with him in private, which is how it should be. It's nice and easy for people in other parties who know they have no real chance of having to deal with Trump to get on their high horse and have a go but the prime minister has to show a bit more class. Yet the French and German leaders don't have a problem being direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Without trying to be rude, you do understand politics do you? Theresa May will hopefully be the one who has to deal with Trump in the future, getting into a public spat is not what she would want to do, and nor should she, no matter how the press try and goad her into it. I'm sure she will raise any concerns with him in private, which is how it should be. It's nice and easy for people in other parties who know they have no real chance of having to deal with Trump to get on their high horse and have a go but the prime minister has to show a bit more class. Classic British subservience. So he can slag of London's mayor but you expect diplomacy back. That is the problem - same with the Saudis and why so few have any faith in leaders having any integrity or conviction. Glad we are severing ties with Europe and rely on our cosy little special relationship bs - such a reciprocal agreement eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millbrook Saint Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Classic British subservience. So he can slag of London's mayor but you expect diplomacy back. That is the problem - same with the Saudis and why so few have any faith in leaders having any integrity or conviction. Glad we are severing ties with Europe and rely on our cosy little special relationship bs - such a reciprocal agreement eh? No, Classic British class and integrity, aren't we always taught to raise above the bait, just because we're not shouting it from the roof tops doesn't mean we're not letting Trump know our feelings about it. Agree with the 'special relationship' bit, nothing makes me cringe more than when I hear politicians of any party spouting that, we're Britain, we brought democracy to the world, we should be a little more proud of our achievements and more confident of our standing in the world instead of kowtowing to any other nation, that includes the EU. Oh and we're not severing ties with Europe, we're restoring governance to our great country, I'm sure we would all love keep a nice close relationship with Europe, it just seems like the blowhards over there feel that the thing to do is punish a whole nation of people for exercising their democratic right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 No, Classic British class and integrity, aren't we always taught to raise above the bait, just because we're not shouting it from the roof tops doesn't mean we're not letting Trump know our feelings about it. Agree with the 'special relationship' bit, nothing makes me cringe more than when I hear politicians of any party spouting that, we're Britain, we brought democracy to the world, we should be a little more proud of our achievements and more confident of our standing in the world instead of kowtowing to any other nation, that includes the EU. Oh and we're not severing ties with Europe, we're restoring governance to our great country, I'm sure we would all love keep a nice close relationship with Europe, it just seems like the blowhards over there feel that the thing to do is punish a whole nation of people for exercising their democratic right Les? Is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Anyone who wants Abbott in charge of law & order is bonkers. She couldn't run a bath. Cheers Diane, backed up my post within 5 hours. http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5935c42ee4b0099e7fae7337 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Cheers Diane, backed up my post within 5 hours. http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5935c42ee4b0099e7fae7337 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It's definitely racist to say she's an effing moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Yet it's under Theresa May's watch, and then Amber Rudd's, that terrorism is getting worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 5 June, 2017 Share Posted 5 June, 2017 Yet it's under Theresa May's watch, and then Amber Rudd's, that terrorism is getting worse. Are you trying to say that Westminster,Manchester & London Bridge wouldn't have happened if Abbott was home sec? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 OK, what's everyone's predictions for Thursday? Percentages and seat majority I reckon Cons on 42, Labour on 36. Majority of 40-50 ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) These general polls are singularly useless as a guide. It might be that the parties are a close at a national level but the Tory lead is much wider in marginals in which case it's all over for Labour. National polls obscure this difference and thus bias upwards Labour's electoral prospects. It's a mystery why pollsters don't poll marginals more systematically - the practice is much more established in the US. Philip Stephens from the FT suggests that ministerial gossip has it that anything less than a majority of 50 would be a serious disappointment. A happy ending for May would be a margin of over 70. Of course when Thatcher beat Michael Foot in 1983, she won a majority of 144. Will go for a majority of 60-75, though I'm basically guessing. Edited 6 June, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) it appears that corbyn, Mcdonall and Abbott had voted in favour of allowing British ISIS fighters to return home never a good look if true I see Dianne Abbott is allowed out again. Deary me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq8Dd5Sa7fI Edited 6 June, 2017 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 Tories only 1 point lead this morning in polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 OK, what's everyone's predictions for Thursday? Percentages and seat majority I reckon Cons on 42, Labour on 36. Majority of 40-50 ish. Cons on 43, Labour 38, majority of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 Cons on 43, Labour 38, majority of 10. So a general election with all the inherent expense for absolutely sod all then..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 So a general election with all the inherent expense for absolutely sod all then..... It does mean May now gets a replica in Madame Tussauds (only elected PMs are eligible for one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 It does mean May now gets a replica in Madame Tussauds (only elected PMs are eligible for one). I did not know that so at least the election will have served some purpose.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 It does mean May now gets a replica in Madame Tussauds (only elected PMs are eligible for one). Do they sell small replicas that you could stick pins in? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) So a general election with all the inherent expense for absolutely sod all then..... I wouldnt say that. It will have utterly screwed May as a credible leader. Unfortunately it will also install Corbyn as one. She will be dumped as PM, then we will have another unelected PM who will want their own mandate and we can do it all again in a couple of years after another referendum on the dodgy Brexit deal. Hours of fun yet. Edited 6 June, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) Abbot doesn't seem right. On drugs or ill or something. I'm no fan of hers but she's not usually incoherent to this extent, a bit batty certainly but usually 'alert'! **$sed perhaps. Edited 6 June, 2017 by Manuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 Abbot doesn't seem right. On drugs or ill or something. I'm no fan of hers but she's not usually incoherent to this extent, a bit batty certainly but usually 'alert'! Agreed. I generally hate her but she seems spaced out at the moment- I almost felt a bit sorry for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 Agreed. I generally hate her but she seems spaced out at the moment- I almost felt a bit sorry for her. You might disagree or not like Abbott. But why do you (generally) hate her? You seem to hate a lot of people, pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 You might disagree or not like Abbott. But why do you (generally) hate her? You seem to hate a lot of people, pal. I think Abbott is a racist whose identity politics does more to divide and upset this country than most other politicians I have seen. I don't hate her personally as I don't know her but I certainly despise the ideology she represents and many of her actions. I don't believe I've ever claimed to hate anyone else on here pal so not sure why you felt the need to add that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 No evidence, so far, that the under-30s intend to go out and vote, a key ssumption in some of the closer polls: https://www.ft.com/content/127f8778-49e6-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) I think Abbott is a racist whose identity politics does more to divide and upset this country than most other politicians I have seen. I don't hate her personally as I don't know her but I certainly despise the ideology she represents and many of her actions. I don't believe I've ever claimed to hate anyone else on here pal so not sure why you felt the need to add that comment. So you hate her in the same way you hate Katie Hopkins, then? Identity politics - depending on what you mean by it, it may be profoundly flawed but it's not intentionally divisive. Not sure why Abbott gets you so worked up - she has an odd effect on some parts of the public. I certainly find her pompous and complacent and despite her progressive pretensions, very elitist. But the same can be said about a lot of politicians. Edited 6 June, 2017 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 No evidence, so far, that the under-30s intend to go out and vote, a key ssumption in some of the closer polls: https://www.ft.com/content/127f8778-49e6-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b I can believe only 50% of under 30s will vote but doubt that is a drop from 2015. The FT article claims 62% of the same age group voted in 2015 - but the nationwide turnout for all age groups was only 66%. Seems suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 One indicator if you don't trust the polls ( which are all over the place) is where the leaders are campaigning. If you look at that it doesn't indicate much concern in Tory HQ. She was in Wales today, recently she went to Don valley number 104 in the list of target seats , a seat which has been labour since the 1920's & their majority is 9k odd. Crosby isn't an idiot, if internal polling & feedback from the doorstep matched the polls , surely she'd be in marginals & Tory areas with small majorities? Corbyn hasn't been in the marginals much either, probably because he's toxic in these. I just can't see how you swing marginals if your leader has to stay away, rather than chooses to stay away. It's also worth noting how many times Farron has visited his own constituency, extremely unusual for a leader. Based on this & my gut feeling, I'm going with May majority of 87, provided things stay pretty much as they are today. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 I can believe only 50% of under 30s will vote but doubt that is a drop from 2015. The FT article claims 62% of the same age group voted in 2015 - but the nationwide turnout for all age groups was only 66%. Seems suspect. Seems the survey is biased towards those who are more politically engaged, despite its best efforts. In 2015, 43% of 18-24s and 54% of 25-34s voted respectively, a figure that is significantly lower than the 62% of respondents who voted. Of course, many respondents likely responded before the Manifestos came out, the dementia tax fiasco and Corbyn's surge in exposure which roughly took place in the final week/ten days of the survey period. Notwithstanding this, you'd still expect numbers to be slightly higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 I just looked again at the 2010 election, only 7 years ago. The combined left vote of Labour and LDs was 52% whilst the Tories and UKIP were only 39.2%. With the LDs and UKIP now largely out of the picture somehow it doesn't seem so hard now to imagine Labour doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 (edited) Based on this & my gut feeling, I'm going with May majority of 87, provided things stay pretty much as they are today. The Tories had a lead of 6% over Labour last time and only got an overall majority of 14. They'd need a lead of something like 9% or more to get a majority like that. Edited 6 June, 2017 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/872041623286411264/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/872041623286411264/photo/1 If speaking at an event where lots of arseholes were present were a crime your boss would be mute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 If speaking at an event where lots of arseholes were present were a crime your boss would be mute. keep defending it, keep going part of the reason why he will get soundly beaten in a few days. Had he not been an IRA sympathiser, shared platforms with people who murder kids/slit the throats of the general public and spit on marching forces.....oh, and not surround himself with racists like dianne abbott...his policies may have had a chance. before you point out what the tory's have done, it simply is not in the same league as jezza and his band of rabble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 June, 2017 Share Posted 6 June, 2017 So you hate her in the same way you hate Katie Hopkins, then? Identity politics - depending on what you mean by it, it may be profoundly flawed but it's not intentionally divisive. Not sure why Abbott gets you so worked up - she has an odd effect on some parts of the public. I certainly find her pompous and complacent and despite her progressive pretensions, very elitist. But the same can be said about a lot of politicians. This sums it up well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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