Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane

[derry]

Now i’ve Been successful In posting, it’s obviously all my machines are having trouble with the Quote facility, since the reporting of this incident i have been trying to find out whether the regulations have changed since I last looked.

If you look at EASA single engine operation it may become more clear. The way I read this now single engine flight is allowed over certain EU areas at night and in poor weather in a turbo prop, but not a piston engine. If this was a hire and reward flight then........

 

Bloody sight easier than flying a glider:lol:

[John Boy Saint]

Bloody sight easier than flying a glider:lol:

........and a bloody great big one at that!

[benjii]

Cardiff are saying (according to BBC Wales) that the player made his own arrangements and the plane/flight was nothing to do with them.

 

That seems quite surprising. There are plenty of direct commercial flights from Nantes into London and Southampton and I'm sure Cardiff would have happily picked him and hot-footed him over to Wales. This guy was obviously doing well in France but it's not like he's a global superstar who can't travel on commercial flights. I guess everyone was just in a rush. If Cardiff didn't book it and neither did Nantes then I suppose it was probably his agent.

 

Horrible situation for his family who will always be left with the thought that if he'd got one of those commercial flights he would have arrived safely.

Edited 23 January, 2019 by benjii

[West Stand]

I do know a little more about this event, I think, but I do have to be careful what I write in case I offend!! However when I was at Hamble were weren't allowed to cross the Solent in a single engine aircraft at a height below which you be able to glide to dry land in the event of an engine failure. Some lessons we were taught in the 50's and the 60's stay with me to this day. Some of my instructors were old aviators who had learned lessons the hard way so it was sensible to listen. Always in all aeroplanes I flew I would do a mental check at 1000 feet on approach that the undercarriage was down and locked it was the correct runway and we were clear to land, simple stuff but it can save embarrassment. I do tell my 1982 story quite frequently to support a local charity, but I usually get the opportunity when asked questions to point out that when I learnt to fly in the 1950's, when pilot's did not expect to see out their natural days as accidents were very common, you just hoped to be lucky, that when I learned to fly flying was dangerous and sex was safe, however when I retired in the 1990's it had reversed!! A pilot is really only interested in the four inches of flesh that holds his head off his body...…… his neck. with the local Odeon strapped to his back where he goes the rest will follow

Still I am more interested these days in who Ralph is going to buy and when we are going to get a ref biased towards us!!

[OldNick]

For anybody interested here is a link to a BBC interview with David Henderson the pilot of N264DB in 2015. He gives a tour of that aircraft. It looks like he was operating it since then.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk>news>my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

 

That doesn't seem to work. Google David Henderson ferry pilot brings up my life as a ferry pilot BBC news you'll see the link

All info regarding this seems to be erased online. The Sun Mail and mIrror pieces are deleted it seems. Probably to protect the family

[Saint Albert]

I am trying to post but am having trouble!i

I am Eric Moody, and I have been a saints supporter since 1946 at the end of the war and a present day ST holder!

I read this forum frequently but rarely post unless upset by the ref.

I do have a view on this accident, it looks very much like a cheapskete charter!

 

Perhaps you posted after the Everton game last Saturday? I had to take a walk afterwards, I was so irritated by the ref.

 

Anyway, my impression of this situation from an entirely non-expert, layperson, I’ve-always-been-afraid-of-flying perspective, was that it seemed odd to put Sala in a dinky little one-engined plane. From reading this thread, it looks like folks with more expertise might be thinking the same thing.

[OldNick]

Perhaps you posted after the Everton game last Saturday? I had to take a walk afterwards, I was so irritated by the ref.

 

.

Have you seen the sky sports bit on twitter, I am about to post it on the everton match thread

 

Brilliant

[derry]

The Google link I mentioned is working and another link to the same video just below it.

 

On another subject. In the film he mentions ice and descending to find warmer air. He mentions he has a dinghy. As for ice, the aircraft has de-icing boots whether serviceable is not known. there is also a possibility of intake icing or pitot icing if the heater failed or wasn't switched on. He was a ferry pilot experienced on the North Atlantic and all that it entails. He sounded switched on to the dangers but also commented he didn't think it would happen to him. I've always operated from the other side, be aware of what can happen and be ready for it.

[Saint Albert]

Have you seen the sky sports bit on twitter, I am about to post it on the everton match thread

 

Brilliant

 

Yes! V. Funny - I’m glad to see I wasn’t the only one getting worked up by the ref.

[derry]

More is coming out. It appears that although the plane was registered to Southern aircraft consultancy it was owned by Scottish football agent Willie McKay who was involved in the transfer from Nantes.

 

That could then be a private flight. However it is difficult to see how the aircraft registered in the US and consequently has to have a US owner, could be legally used if is owned by Scot unless he is also a US citizen.

Edited 23 January, 2019 by derry

[Whitey Grandad]

I do know a little more about this event, I think, but I do have to be careful what I write in case I offend!! However when I was at Hamble were weren't allowed to cross the Solent in a single engine aircraft at a height below which you be able to glide to dry land in the event of an engine failure. Some lessons we were taught in the 50's and the 60's stay with me to this day. Some of my instructors were old aviators who had learned lessons the hard way so it was sensible to listen. Always in all aeroplanes I flew I would do a mental check at 1000 feet on approach that the undercarriage was down and locked it was the correct runway and we were clear to land, simple stuff but it can save embarrassment. I do tell my 1982 story quite frequently to support a local charity, but I usually get the opportunity when asked questions to point out that when I learnt to fly in the 1950's, when pilot's did not expect to see out their natural days as accidents were very common, you just hoped to be lucky, that when I learned to fly flying was dangerous and sex was safe, however when I retired in the 1990's it had reversed!! A pilot is really only interested in the four inches of flesh that holds his head off his body...…… his neck. with the local Odeon strapped to his back where he goes the rest will follow

Still I am more interested these days in who Ralph is going to buy and when we are going to get a ref biased towards us!!

 

As I once read somewhere:

 

"Don't run out of altitude, speed and ideas all at the same time"

[shurlock]

Thanks Derry and West Stand for the continued ‘required reading’. It’s fascinating, notwithstanding the very tragic circumstances.

[Lighthouse]

More is coming out. It appears that although the plane was registered to Southern aircraft consultancy it was owned by Scottish football agent Willie McKay who was involved in the transfer from Nantes.

 

That could then be a private flight. However it is difficult to see how the aircraft registered in the US and consequently has to have a US owner, could be legally used if is owned by Scot unless he is also a US citizen.

 

I don't think that bit is entirely accurate. For example GE leases aircraft to operators around the world and most of Alitalia's aircraft are registered to an Irish company, despite not actually being based there.

[Cabbage_Face]

Probably one of the most interesting threads on here in a long time.

 

I see the Daily Fail are claiming Willie McKay chartered the flight...

Edited 23 January, 2019 by Cabbage_Face

[derry]

I don't think that bit is entirely accurate. For example GE leases aircraft to operators around the world and most of Alitalia's aircraft are registered to an Irish company, despite not actually being based there.

 

A US law apparently.

[Lighthouse]

A US law apparently.

 

Fair enough. There are hundreds of N- registered aircraft operating in and around Europe, so there must be some loophole somewhere.

[derry]

The story takes another big turn. David Henderson the pilot reported to be flying the aircraft has been on Facebook saying he wasn't on the flight. The plane left Cardiff for Guernsey on Saturday. Presumption: on it's way to Nantes. The pilot has been named now as David Ibbotson a gas engineer and private pilot from Lincolnshire. Allegedly he had been hired with the aeroplane to take Sala from Nantes to Cardiff. Private pilots are not allowed to fly for hire and reward. The PPL is the most basic qualification. He has dropped parachutists which he is allowed to do.

 

This sounds like the sort of mess professional pilots are trained to avoid. David Henderson has been quoted saying that this aircraft is susceptible to icing on the airframe and the propeller in icing conditions. the way to get out of icing is to descend into warmer air if that doesn't work the plane will stall.

 

Better still stay out of icing conditions. I can't remember what the upper conditions were but flying higher in clear air would avoid picking up ice. Climbing and descending through icing conditions would mean picking up ice. It might be that as a private pilot the pilot didn't have the ratings to fly IFR on the Airways at higher levels. That would explain the planned low level flight unless the forecast icing was at the higher levels.

[derry]

Fair enough. There are hundreds of N- registered aircraft operating in and around Europe, so there must be some loophole somewhere.

 

As I understand it the owner has to be US and the pilot FAA rated.

[simo]

Has anyone else seen the old press conference with Warnock discussing the chances of singing Sala ?

[Cabbage_Face]

The story takes another big turn. David Henderson the pilot reported to be flying the aircraft has been on Facebook saying he wasn't on the flight. The plane left Cardiff for Guernsey on Saturday. Presumption: on it's way to Nantes. The pilot has been named now as David Ibbotson a gas engineer and private pilot from Lincolnshire. Allegedly he had been hired with the aeroplane to take Sala from Nantes to Cardiff. Private pilots are not allowed to fly for hire and reward. The PPL is the most basic qualification. He has dropped parachutists which he is allowed to do.

 

This sounds like the sort of mess professional pilots are trained to avoid. David Henderson has been quoted saying that this aircraft is susceptible to icing on the airframe and the propeller in icing conditions. the way to get out of icing is to descend into warmer air if that doesn't work the plane will stall.

 

Better still stay out of icing conditions. I can't remember what the upper conditions were but flying higher in clear air would avoid picking up ice. Climbing and descending through icing conditions would mean picking up ice. It might be that as a private pilot the pilot didn't have the ratings to fly IFR on the Airways at higher levels. That would explain the planned low level flight unless the forecast icing was at the higher levels.

 

I see that his agent (W.Mckay) may have booked or owned the charter......

[Weston Saint]

The Pilot has been named as David Ibbotson and the plane hired by representatives of Sala.

 

Mr Ibbotson, a gas engineer who operates his own boiler repair company in North Lincolnshire, has extensive experience in private flights and parachute expeditions.

[derry]

What a mess.

[derry]

I see that his agent (W.Mckay) may have booked or owned the charter......

 

It's being said that he owns the aircraft. Wasn't he involved with somebody at Saints a while back? Does he live Bournemouth way?

[shurlock]

It's being said that he owns the aircraft. Wasn't he involved with somebody at Saints a while back? Does he live Bournemouth way?

 

He was Henri Camara’s and Fabrice Fernandes agent.

[derry]

He was Henri Camara’s and Fabrice Fernandes agent.

 

Thanks, I remembered something but I couldn't pin it down.

[derry]

A football agent's 34 year old US registered single piston engine aircraft hired with a private pilot to fly at low level across the channel at night. What could go wrong?

 

I would think the insurance claims are going to be in some difficulty.

Edited 23 January, 2019 by derry

[Window Cleaner]

What a mess.

 

 

As are many things that McKay seems to be involved in. Nothing ever proved against him though, the Arry Redknapp of the agenting world..

[derry]

As are many things that McKay seems to be involved in. Nothing ever proved against him though, the Arry Redknapp of the agenting world..

 

If he does own this US registered aircraft and the pilot hasn't US licences there is going to be a lot of effluent hitting the oscillator. Furthermore if it's a hired aircraft and private pilot the CAA are going to get involved. There is a massive mess waiting to come out. This one might take some dodging because under the counter deals will become transparent under the sort of scrutiny that this will get from the associated authorities, insurance companies and the media because of the high profile of the £18m player's death.

[Window Cleaner]

If he does own this US registered aircraft and the pilot hasn't US licences there is going to be a lot of effluent hitting the oscillator. Furthermore if it's a hired aircraft and private pilot the CAA are going to get involved. There is a massive mess waiting to come out. This one might take some dodging because under the counter deals will become transparent under the sort of scrutiny that this will get from the associated authorities, insurance companies and the media because of the high profile of the £18m player's death.

 

Perhaps Nemesis will catch up with him then. Seem to remember he was investigated for a couple of years in the bungs scandal but nothing ever stuck.

Edited 23 January, 2019 by Window Cleaner

[derry]

Perhaps Nemesis will catch up with him then. Seem to remember he was investigated for a couple of years in the bungs scandal but nothing ever stuck.

 

I think this is beginning to look like a massive cluster****. It could run and run.

[Batman]

I think this is beginning to look like a massive cluster****. It could run and run.

 

did you ever have any dodgy moments as a Pilot?

what about when 9/11 happened, did the lack of security around and in a plane ever concern you?

[suewhistle]

I think this is beginning to look like a massive cluster****. It could run and run.

 

This thread is chilling. I must admit I thought of icing earlier but I'm not a pilot - they wouldn't let me join Southampton Uni UAS back in the day and never had the money since.. But like in sailing or skiing the precautionary principle always holds good and saying NO to a dodgy situation is a very important instinct. I think it was my dad who told me that there were "old pilots, bold pilots but no old, bold pilots".

He was on duty as a BEA D.O. at Manchester Airport at the time of the Munich air disaster: another aircraft that should never have tried to leave the ground after the first attempt.

[derry]

did you ever have any dodgy moments as a Pilot?

what about when 9/11 happened, did the lack of security around and in a plane ever concern you?

 

Nothing we couldn't cope with due to training and common sense. I passed over Manhattan, a beautiful night on 9/10 I had about five minutes looking at it clear as a bell from 33000 ft. I was passing Port Solent next morning when my wife rang me with the news of the first aircraft. I just assumes it was a lost light aeroplane. I was changing with the Tv on and saw the second plane hit, no doubt then. I flew over the Pentagon quite a few times on my way down to Orlando and the damage was unbelievable.

 

My next trip after 9/11 was a 757 trip to Sharm El Sheikh. I ****ed off the locals by making them pile all the bags outside the aircraft, made the passengers identify their bags before boarding and immediately putting them in the hold. In the end we had two bags not claimed.

 

Never really felt uncomfortable anywhere, including a 36000 nm round the world 26 day trip.

[SaintStinger]

A football agent's 34 year old US registered single piston engine aircraft hired with a private pilot to fly at low level across the channel at night. What could go wrong?

 

So it seems this could have and should have been avoided. A heavy price to pay. Sad for everyone involved.

[hasper57saint]

More is coming out. It appears that although the plane was registered to Southern aircraft consultancy it was owned by Scottish football agent Willie McKay who was involved in the transfer from Nantes.

 

That could then be a private flight. However it is difficult to see how the aircraft registered in the US and consequently has to have a US owner, could be legally used if is owned by Scot unless he is also a US citizen.

 

When I was flying, many US registered light aircraft (and I include twins) were kept that way to avoid import duties.Whether the practice continues I am not certain.

PS. GA rules require the access to a life jacket for over water flights.

[derry]

This thread is chilling. I must admit I thought of icing earlier but I'm not a pilot - they wouldn't let me join Southampton Uni UAS back in the day and never had the money since.. But like in sailing or skiing the precautionary principle always holds good and saying NO to a dodgy situation is a very important instinct. I think it was my dad who told me that there were "old pilots, bold pilots but no old, bold pilots".

He was on duty as a BEA D.O. at Manchester Airport at the time of the Munich air disaster: another aircraft that should never have tried to leave the ground after the first attempt.

 

That wasn't the only thing, BEA screwed the pilot. Although both pilots were training captains cleared to fly in either seat the designated captain was acting as the first officer whilst the other Captain was doing the take off from the left seat. He died but the Captain was sacked because he was in the right seat. In later years for operational reasons the company wanted experienced Captains to fly together. I made them rewrite their operations manuals to read that where two Captains were flying together, the pilot occupying the left hand seat was the commander. We decided between ourselves who flew the legs and in preference usually occupied the left (captain's) seat.

[derry]

When I was flying, many US registered light aircraft (and I include twins) were kept that way to avoid import duties.Whether the practice continues I am not certain.

PS. GA rules require the access to a life jacket for over water flights.

 

That sounds familiar. Football agent? In light single engine aircraft I used to wear mine and got anybody in the plane to do the same.

[Cabbage_Face]

Old Harry and McKay has some dealings in the past

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hasper57saint]

That sounds familiar. Football agent? In light single engine aircraft I used to wear mine and got anybody in the plane to do the same.

 

Ditto. Like Ralph. Comply or get off!

[Lets B Avenue]

He was Henri Camara’s and Fabrice Fernandes agent.

 

Wasn't he also Davenport and Bernard's as well. All bought in that wonderful January 2005 transfer window.

 

The fact that he was arrested, along with Redkrapp, Mandaric and Storrie-Teller a couple of years later, was just a coincidence.

[LGTL]

I do know a little more about this event, I think, but I do have to be careful what I write in case I offend!! However when I was at Hamble were weren't allowed to cross the Solent in a single engine aircraft at a height below which you be able to glide to dry land in the event of an engine failure. Some lessons we were taught in the 50's and the 60's stay with me to this day. Some of my instructors were old aviators who had learned lessons the hard way so it was sensible to listen. Always in all aeroplanes I flew I would do a mental check at 1000 feet on approach that the undercarriage was down and locked it was the correct runway and we were clear to land, simple stuff but it can save embarrassment. I do tell my 1982 story quite frequently to support a local charity, but I usually get the opportunity when asked questions to point out that when I learnt to fly in the 1950's, when pilot's did not expect to see out their natural days as accidents were very common, you just hoped to be lucky, that when I learned to fly flying was dangerous and sex was safe, however when I retired in the 1990's it had reversed!! A pilot is really only interested in the four inches of flesh that holds his head off his body...…… his neck. with the local Odeon strapped to his back where he goes the rest will follow

Still I am more interested these days in who Ralph is going to buy and when we are going to get a ref biased towards us!!

 

Brilliant to have your insight in this thread, thanks for posting.

[suewhistle]

However when I was at Hamble were weren't allowed to cross the Solent in a single engine aircraft at a height below which you be able to glide to dry land in the event of an engine failure.

 

Still the same with helicopters from what I learnt when I accompanied my GF on a training flight to the IOW. She's having a lesson tomorrow morning from Hurn and in this weather I'm a bit worried about icing: Schweitzers aren't particularly powerful.

 

These days with larger commercial aircraft there's a bit more margin for error. When my dad started at Eastleigh and was doing the load sheets for Dragon Rapides he would note that Jersey Senator Le Mesurier was on the passenger list and ask to be sent one of the lighter captains and restrict crew baggage, please..

[Whitey Grandad]

I came across this link on another blog.

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=220997

[John Boy Saint]

These days with larger commercial aircraft there's a bit more margin for error. When my dad started at Eastleigh and was doing the load sheets for Dragon Rapides he would note that Jersey Senator Le Mesurier was on the passenger list and ask to be sent one of the lighter captains and restrict crew baggage, please..

That just made me think of my first flight between Guernsey and Jerrsey on “The Little Yellow Plane” off we went out to the plane and were loaded 2 by 2, sat there waiting for the pilot, all of a sudden doors opened and people were shuffled about into different seats, doors shut again. Drivers door opens and in pops the pilot, has a quick fiddle about, turns around casually leans over the back of his seat looking like he is about to share a bag of boiled sweets and says, “Sorry about having to move you about Ladies and Gentlemen” “but if they had read my mind rather than what I had written down, we wouldn’t have had to mess about......right let’s go!”.

[Batman]

I do know a little more about this event, I think, but I do have to be careful what I write in case I offend!! However when I was at Hamble were weren't allowed to cross the Solent in a single engine aircraft at a height below which you be able to glide to dry land in the event of an engine failure. Some lessons we were taught in the 50's and the 60's stay with me to this day. Some of my instructors were old aviators who had learned lessons the hard way so it was sensible to listen. Always in all aeroplanes I flew I would do a mental check at 1000 feet on approach that the undercarriage was down and locked it was the correct runway and we were clear to land, simple stuff but it can save embarrassment. I do tell my 1982 story quite frequently to support a local charity, but I usually get the opportunity when asked questions to point out that when I learnt to fly in the 1950's, when pilot's did not expect to see out their natural days as accidents were very common, you just hoped to be lucky, that when I learned to fly flying was dangerous and sex was safe, however when I retired in the 1990's it had reversed!! A pilot is really only interested in the four inches of flesh that holds his head off his body...…… his neck. with the local Odeon strapped to his back where he goes the rest will follow

Still I am more interested these days in who Ralph is going to buy and when we are going to get a ref biased towards us!!

 

"a bit like negotiating one's way up a badger's arse”

 

 

 

One of the best - in the face of adversity - quotes I have ever seen

 

:-)

Edited 24 January, 2019 by Batman

[badgerx16]

"a bit like negotiating one's way up a badger's arse”

I don't care how much 'negotiation' takes place, you stay well clear or it's the badger's teeth and claws for you.

[so22saint]

The BBC played his voicemail from the plane to his parents on the news last night - bloody heartbreaking

[skintsaint]

The BBC played his voicemail from the plane to his parents on the news last night - bloody heartbreaking

 

Engine sounds a bit on and off in that clip.

[LeBizzier69]

I know it's the last thing most are thinking about, but i wonder what the implications are for the fee being paid etc and how all the admin and costs would work in this situation?

[so22saint]

I know it's the last thing most are thinking about, but i wonder what the implications are for the fee being paid etc and how all the admin and costs would work in this situation?

 

Cardiff will get the money back from insurance eventually, but I would imagine there was a down payment and they have a cash hole now if they want to sign a replacement.