Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 Engine sounds a bit on and off in that clip. I heard that clip the day of the accident. First thing I thought was that the plane sounded like it was struggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 All sorts of weird theories emerging on the CFC forum I am reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 All sorts of weird theories emerging on the CFC forum I am reading. CCFC not Chelsea's one, I presume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 All sorts of weird theories emerging on the CFC forum I am reading. Feel free to share them. It does seem an odd one. Private hire of an old single engine plane 'flying by night' over water, when he could have gone the formal option. Why do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 CCFC not Chelsea's one, I presume Perhaps the theories involve aerosol gas in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=204309 theres one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=204309 theres one.. None of those theories are remotely possible. As for the photo taken from Brighton, they look like vapour trails to me. Never in a million years are they distress flares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=204309 theres one.. Next there will be a theory that they are sheltering on Paul Allen's yacht somewhere in the channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 None of those theories are remotely possible. As for the photo taken from Brighton, they look like vapour trails to me. Never in a million years are they distress flares. It’s a hell of a long way from Brighton - we are closer and I doubt very much we would have seen a thing. As you say vapour trails no more, unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=204309 theres one.. Christ, I'm sure Guernsey police really appreciate those "helpful" phone calls from Cardiff telling them where and how they should be searching Having said that I'm sure if the missing person was one of our players we'd have a few fans offering similar "advice". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 TBF, I wouldn't over-endow the Channel Islands authorities with competence or capacity. These are very small, sleepy, slightly odd places. That said, I very much doubt he is living off barbequed puffin in a hut on Burhou and do suspect the authorities have better uses of their time than fielding calls from well-meaning idiots. If by some miracle, they did make it to the island, find a fresh water source and heat themselves up sufficiently to survive, I'm pretty sure they would have come out and waved their arms at passing search aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 None of those theories are remotely possible. As for the photo taken from Brighton, they look like vapour trails to me. Never in a million years are they distress flares. FFS, I have gone onto Google maps and measured Burhou to Brighton and its about 120 miles. You are not going to see a flare from 120 miles away. If you did, then every Tom **** and Harry in the CIs would be blinded by the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasper57saint Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 No doubt the Insurers will demand access to the Aircrafts Maintenance Record and the actual Flight Log which are mandatory requirements in Aviation Law for all aircraft irrespective of size. No Pilot worth his/her salt would drive any aircraft without first checking these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 (edited) Firstly, I once had the then Coxwain of the Guernsey lifeboat on the cockpit jump seat. I had a long chat with him and was mightily impressed with his professionalism and experience. The scenarios surrounding this accident are getting worse and worse. It is reported that Willie McKay has denied owning the plane but it is understood it was chartered by the McKay family, as his son Mark was acting on behalf of Nantes to take Sala to and from Cardiff. Obscurely when you look for an owner it comes up with a Minnesota chiropractor company???? Even stranger, David Henderson the originally named pilot had completed passport checks with Sala and had been expected to board the flight. Officials at Nantes-Atlantique airport insisted that David Henderson, a highly experienced pilot in his 60s, was set to take the controls of the Piper PA46 Malibu on Monday night. But he pulled out, leaving Mr Ibbotson to fly Sala to Wales. The UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch said it was investigating the loss of the plane and working with authorities in the US, France and Argentina. This looks extremely strange because the professional pilot pulls out at the last minute and a private pilot looks like he stepped in and took a hire and reward flight when it is possible that he was not properly licenced in both the EU and US. Edited 24 January, 2019 by derry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 Seach has now been called off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangy Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 Search has been called off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 24 January, 2019 Author Share Posted 24 January, 2019 Probably the best thread in a while, interesting. Shame about the circumstances though. And one of the only ones that hasn't been trolled to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 TBF, I wouldn't over-endow the Channel Islands authorities with competence or capacity. These are very small, sleepy, slightly odd places. That said, I very much doubt he is living off barbequed puffin in a hut on Burhou and do suspect the authorities have better uses of their time than fielding calls from well-meaning idiots. If by some miracle, they did make it to the island, find a fresh water source and heat themselves up sufficiently to survive, I'm pretty sure they would have come out and waved their arms at passing search aircraft. They were never ever going to be there, although I can understand the Cardiff fans clinging to any hope they can. It would have been some bizarre combination of the Castaway and Road Wars, surviving on a desert island, then hiding from the helicopter in a wheelie bin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 24 January, 2019 Share Posted 24 January, 2019 see the PC edit Police are around today then, you can't even question the validity of it being Saints related (because Cardiff are relegation rivals, whilst neither is in the bottom three) without upsetting someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 (edited) Looks like the media are catching up. Reporting AAIB investigating the pilot's licence. As he passed an FAA medical recently it looks like he had an FAA PPL however years ago it was quite easy to get an FAA commercial without ratings on production of licence and log book showing at least 250 hours experience. To fly a single, a basic licence was Ok in VFR. The US top licence is an ATR compares to UK/EU ATPL which airline Captains have to have. I believe ab initio pilots do the course, have a CPL which is then automatically upgraded to ATPL after reaching a certain experience level. (I believe it used to be 1200 hours) I'd be happy to be updated on the current criteria. As a US registered aircraft it comes under FAA supervision and FAA licences or maybe exemptions are required to fly it. It looks though that the pilot whilst entitled to carry out the flight privately and fill the aircraft with friends, with only a PPL would not have been allowed to carry a passenger that was paying for the hire of the aircraft or that a third party was hiring the aircraft. It looks like the aircraft was hired with two pilots to carry out the flights. The qualified pilot dropped out and Ibbotson carried on at the last minute. It was quite common on light aircraft commercial flights for a single pilot to fly but a PPL dogsbody flies as extra crew in the right hand seat dealing with passengers, paperwork, radio etc. There maybe also an age question. It used to be that if a pilot was over 60 he could fly a two crew with a pilot under 60. Private flights had no restrictions. Edited 25 January, 2019 by derry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behind Enemy Lines Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Looks like the media are catching up. Reporting AAIB investigating the pilot's licence. As he passed an FAA medical recently it looks like he had an FAA PPL however years ago it was quite easy to get an FAA commercial without ratings on production of licence and log book showing at least 250 hours experience. To fly a single, a basic licence was Ok in VFR. The US top licence is an ATR compares to UK/EU ATPL which airline Captains have to have. I believe ab initio pilots do the course, have a CPL which is then automatically upgraded to ATPL after reaching a certain experience level. (I believe it used to be 1200 hours) I'd be happy to be updated on the current criteria. As a US registered aircraft it comes under FAA supervision and FAA licences or maybe exemptions are required to fly it. It looks though that the pilot whilst entitled to carry out the flight privately and fill the aircraft with friends, with only a PPL would not have been allowed to carry a passenger that was paying for the hire of the aircraft or that a third party was hiring the aircraft. It looks like the aircraft was hired with two pilots to carry out the flights. The qualified pilot dropped out and Ibbotson carried on at the last minute. It is quite common on commercial flights for a single pilot to fly but a PPL dogsbody flies as extra crew in the right hand seat dealing with passengers, paperwork, radio etc. 1500 hours is the minimum for issue of an ATPL. You need to show 200 hours of night, and, I think, from memory, 100 hours of instrument flying. Then you need to be assesed for Command suitability, usually in the sim, and be signed off. This is for EASA, I believe the FAA is similar. For commercial, passenger carrying flights, two qualified pilots are required. By qualified, both have the relevant licences, are typed on that particular aircraft, and have an OPC with the operator. You cannot fly single crew with passengers on a commercial (AOC) flight. You cannot use a single engine aircraft either for passenger carrying flights as far as I am aware, unless those regs have changed recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 see the PC edit Police are around today then, you can't even question the validity of it being Saints related (because Cardiff are relegation rivals, whilst neither is in the bottom three) without upsetting someone. I assume that was my post as it has vanished? Not sure why as this isn’t really Saints connected and should be in The Lounge. Hey ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 I assume that was my post as it has vanished? Not sure why as this isn’t really Saints connected and should be in The Lounge. Hey ho.Well if it upsets you that much dont read it no-one is forcing you to. Most of us are interested in Dave's input to this tragic event Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 see the PC edit Police are around today then, you can't even question the validity of it being Saints related (because Cardiff are relegation rivals, whilst neither is in the bottom three) without upsetting someone. I assume that was my post as it has vanished? Not sure why as this isn’t really Saints connected and should be in The Lounge. Hey ho. I'm not sure what either of you were expecting when you clicked on a thread titled, "Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane". Like the Leicester helicopter, it's relevant enough that many Saints fans would want to discuss it, without sending it to the wasteland that is the lounge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 1500 hours is the minimum for issue of an ATPL. You need to show 200 hours of night, and, I think, from memory, 100 hours of instrument flying. Then you need to be assesed for Command suitability, usually in the sim, and be signed off. This is for EASA, I believe the FAA is similar. For commercial, passenger carrying flights, two qualified pilots are required. By qualified, both have the relevant licences, are typed on that particular aircraft, and have an OPC with the operator. You cannot fly single crew with passengers on a commercial (AOC) flight. You cannot use a single engine aircraft either for passenger carrying flights as far as I am aware, unless those regs have changed recently. That's great, thanks. I was pretty sure things had got more restrictive in time. What about the 60 age limitations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 1500 hours is the minimum for issue of an ATPL. You need to show 200 hours of night, and, I think, from memory, 100 hours of instrument flying. Then you need to be assesed for Command suitability, usually in the sim, and be signed off. This is for EASA, I believe the FAA is similar. For commercial, passenger carrying flights, two qualified pilots are required. By qualified, both have the relevant licences, are typed on that particular aircraft, and have an OPC with the operator. You cannot fly single crew with passengers on a commercial (AOC) flight. You cannot use a single engine aircraft either for passenger carrying flights as far as I am aware, unless those regs have changed recently. All of that is assuming it was a commercial flight. From what I remember the EASA definition is some bo**ocks about 'in exchange for remuneration or other valuable commodity.' In other words if Sala wasn't paying for this flight and it was just a 'favour' from a friend of a friend of an agent, or whatever, then it wouldn't count. You could legally fly at night, single pilot, single engine. The pilot would only need a PPL with a night rating and to have filed a flight plan. No idea if the FAA have a different take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 The wasteland that is the lounge. Ahem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 That's great, thanks. I was pretty sure things had got more restrictive in time. What about the 60 age limitations? The pilot, Ibbotson, was 59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Whoooaaaa...! As other have said, probably one of the most interesting threads on this board in ages, good to see it untrolled as well. Like to thank the resident aviator experts for their input, makes for great reading and insight, but for the 'slightly dimmer' readers, please unencrypt: AAIB, FAA, CPL, ATPL, EASA, AOC, OPC...? Ta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Whoooaaaa...! As other have said, probably one of the most interesting threads on this board in ages, good to see it untrolled as well. Like to thank the resident aviator experts for their input, makes for great reading and insight, but for the 'slightly dimmer' readers, please unencrypt: AAIB, FAA, CPL, ATPL, EASA, AOC, OPC...? Ta! Air accident investigation board Federal aviation administration commercial pilots license air transport pilot's license European Aviation Safety Agency Air operators certificate operators proficiency check. Territorial Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Air accident investigation board Federal aviation administration commercial pilots license air transport pilot's license European Aviation Safety Agency Air operators certificate operators proficiency check. Territorial Army Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behind Enemy Lines Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Derry - For commercial ops, and operating in most of the countries, only one of the pilots may be over 60. A bit like only one pilot allowed an OML (medical restriction). Lighthouse - I think we are assuming this wasn’t a commercial flight as there are too many legalities making that impossible. Micky - Air Accidents Investigation Board, Fedoral Aviation Administration (The US version of our CAA (Civil Aviation Authority)), Airline Transport Pilots Licence (The level of license required to be a Captain on a passenger carrying commercial flight), European Aviation Safety Agency (policy makers for European standards), Air Operators Certificate (A Certificate issued when a company demonstrates to the governing body of their country that they are suitable to operate their aircraft for the type of flying they are involved with), Operators Proficiency Check (A simulator usually, or sometimes carried out in the aircraft with no passengers, check flight with an examiner. Carried out every six months, every other one is completed alongside an LPC (License Proficency Check (A more rigorous Check flight carried out every 12 months)). Aviation is full of acronyms! TTFN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 All of that is assuming it was a commercial flight. From what I remember the EASA definition is some bo**ocks about 'in exchange for remuneration or other valuable commodity.' In other words if Sala wasn't paying for this flight and it was just a 'favour' from a friend of a friend of an agent, or whatever, then it wouldn't count. You could legally fly at night, single pilot, single engine. The pilot would only need a PPL with a night rating and to have filed a flight plan. No idea if the FAA have a different take on it. Reported yesterday that Mark McKay was working for Nantes, facilitating the transfer and sourced the aircraft supposedly from Southern Aircraft Consultancy although they don't appear to be an aircraft operator. If the McKay family owned the aircraft and gave Sala a lift to Cardiff it would indeed be a private flight. My opinion for what it's worth is that if the aircraft was hired by the agent with a crew then it had to be commercial. Nobody has yet cast a light on why David Henderson went through the passport check with Sala, then pulled off the flight presumably leaving Ibbotson on his own, with Hobson's choice, **** or get off the pot. I wonder if Henderson filed the flight plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Derry - For commercial ops, and operating in most of the countries, only one of the pilots may be over 60. A bit like only one pilot allowed an OML (medical restriction). Lighthouse - I think we are assuming this wasn’t a commercial flight as there are too many legalities making that impossible. Micky - Air Accidents Investigation Board, Fedoral Aviation Administration (The US version of our CAA (Civil Aviation Authority)), Airline Transport Pilots Licence (The level of license required to be a Captain on a passenger carrying commercial flight), European Aviation Safety Agency (policy makers for European standards), Air Operators Certificate (A Certificate issued when a company demonstrates to the governing body of their country that they are suitable to operate their aircraft for the type of flying they are involved with), Operators Proficiency Check (A simulator usually, or sometimes carried out in the aircraft with no passengers, check flight with an examiner. Carried out every six months, every other one is completed alongside an LPC (License Proficency Check (A more rigorous Check flight carried out every 12 months)). Aviation is full of acronyms! TTFN. Thanks the 60 rule seems the same. Reported that David Henderson, the original designated pilot was in his sixties. I flew as a Captain after 60 with no problems. There seems to be some very real questions to be resolved pilot wise. I think this is going to turn out to be an absolute bugger's muddle. I just can't see how it was a private flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Great thread, although tragic circumstances. I can't claim any great knowledge of aviation but this seems set to run and run. Difficult question - but what impact could this uncertainty about registration and licencing have on insurance for those affected? Clearly, thoughts primarily with the friends and family of those involved but because there is an expensive elite sportsperson involved this could be complex from the outside looking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Reported yesterday that Mark McKay was working for Nantes, facilitating the transfer and sourced the aircraft supposedly from Southern Aircraft Consultancy although they don't appear to be an aircraft operator. If the McKay family owned the aircraft and gave Sala a lift to Cardiff it would indeed be a private flight. My opinion for what it's worth is that if the aircraft was hired by the agent with a crew then it had to be commercial. Nobody has yet cast a light on why David Henderson went through the passport check with Sala, then pulled off the flight presumably leaving Ibbotson on his own, with Hobson's choice, **** or get off the pot. I wonder if Henderson filed the flight plan. Surely this is the key question. Why hasn't Henderson explained this? Maybe he has but it's sub judice and not been make public. His comments will explain a lot as to what really or may have happened. In the absence of Sala and Ibbotson, his evidence is what we need to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 I'm not sure what either of you were expecting when you clicked on a thread titled, "Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane". Like the Leicester helicopter, it's relevant enough that many Saints fans would want to discuss it, without sending it to the wasteland that is the lounge. I was expecting to find exactly what I found. The point is that this site says that this section is for Saints issues and the lounge is for non Saints related issues. No big deal but I am sure the same people who are interested enough to post here would also have posted in the “wasteland” as you call it. No point in having rules if you don’t abide by them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasper57saint Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Reported yesterday that Mark McKay was working for Nantes, facilitating the transfer and sourced the aircraft supposedly from Southern Aircraft Consultancy although they don't appear to be an aircraft operator. If the McKay family owned the aircraft and gave Sala a lift to Cardiff it would indeed be a private flight. My opinion for what it's worth is that if the aircraft was hired by the agent with a crew then it had to be commercial. Nobody has yet cast a light on why David Henderson went through the passport check with Sala, then pulled off the flight presumably leaving Ibbotson on his own, with Hobson's choice, **** or get off the pot. I wonder if Henderson filed the flight plan. Where did the flight originate? If in the U.K. Then London Info would have to be told and the aircraft tracked through our airspace.However, I don't know about the French requirements but they must be parallel to ours. As Alice said "It gets curiouser and curiouser" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Surely this is the key question. Why hasn't Henderson explained this? Maybe he has but it's sub judice and not been make public. His comments will explain a lot as to what really or may have happened. In the absence of Sala and Ibbotson, his evidence is what we need to hear. I was thinking this some way up the thread. In my very limited experience of less experienced pilots like Ibbotson they don't like to turn down opportunities to get more hours in. If he was put under pressure by Mackay then I presume the AAIB have the power to obtain telephone records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 What would the private pilots motivation be if he wasn't being renumerated beyond expenses. Or is a coach and horses being driven through the system via cash payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 What would the private pilots motivation be if he wasn't being renumerated beyond expenses. Or is a coach and horses being driven through the system via cash payment. The point is that the passenger isn’t paying for the flight. The pilot could be getting paid but it wouldn’t necessarily make it a commercial flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 The point is that the passenger isn’t paying for the flight. The pilot could be getting paid but it wouldn’t necessarily make it a commercial flight. I think that may be flawed. If the aircraft was hired with a crew who were coincidently positioning an empty aircraft to Cardiff and gave a casual passenger a lift that's one thing but specifically hiring a plane and crew to position to Nantes to take a specific passenger to Cardiff it would be almost impossible to legally argue that wasn't a commercial flight. If the Mckay family owned the aircraft and gave Sala a lift to Cardiff with no money changing hands it would be I think ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Where did the flight originate? If in the U.K. Then London Info would have to be told and the aircraft tracked through our airspace.However, I don't know about the French requirements but they must be parallel to ours. As Alice said "It gets curiouser and curiouser" Cardiff to Guernsey on Saturday it's reported then presumably positioned to Nantes at some point. The safest way to operate VFR is to work the available radar stations civil and military close to track and any airfields that impinge. London Information purely pass information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 I think that may be flawed. If the aircraft was hired with a crew who were coincidently positioning an empty aircraft to Cardiff and gave a casual passenger a lift that's one thing but specifically hiring a plane and crew to position to Nantes to take a specific passenger to Cardiff it would be almost impossible to legally argue that wasn't a commercial flight. If the Mckay family owned the aircraft and gave Sala a lift to Cardiff with no money changing hands it would be I think ok. Yes, I was basing my assumption on your last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 It still begs the question "why on earth would you let a £15M asset make his own way via a tin pot plane/pilot etc " It is also beyond belief that a player on £40K a week would try to drive himself home after 10 pints and 12 cocktails but what do I know ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Yes, I was basing my assumption on your last sentence. Early in the eighties I had some arguments with members of the Hampshire Constabulary over aviation. Their social club subsidised flying training on a Fuji owned by Condor Engineering in Winchester at Thruxton. As I was an airline pilot with an instructor's rating I was one of those asked to instruct as we didn't have to be associated with a flying club as PPL instructors had to be. It eventually became apparent where this was going. HC were going to set up a flying unit run by a officer with a PPL/Inst Rtg who wasn't involved in the instruction. Eventually some of the officers got PPLs. An aircraft was rented hourly from Southampton School of Flying and used for police work flown by the PPLs most very inexperienced. I argued against this practice and tried to persuade that it had to be professional trained pilots as they had exemptions from low flying rules. I warned that there would be an accident but was ignored. The unit progressed and leased an Optica flown by the same people. On 15th May 1985 (yes another accident) Gerry Spencer who I had taught to fly was flying the Optica with a photographer another policeman. I was flying a Herald off R/w 21 at Southampton (now 20) climbing towards FAW beacon and was told by ATC of an Optica transiting E to W. Gerry recognised my voice and we exchanged brief greetings. When I finished in Guernsey I went to the hotel and checked the teletext news, there it was Police Optica crashes at Ringwood two fatalities. That pretty much finished the policemen working as pilots. They then bought a BN Islander and some CPLs were used, Eventually common sense prevailed and the Hampshire Police helicopter was purchased professionally operated. A couple of good men had to die to prove what we all knew. Only properly trained pilots should be used in whatever role they are required to work. The keen amateur no matter how enthusiastic just cannot cope with the demands that sometimes crop up if not trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Early in the eighties I had some arguments with members of the Hampshire Constabulary over aviation. Their social club subsidised flying training on a Fuji owned by Condor Engineering in Winchester at Thruxton. As I was an airline pilot with an instructor's rating I was one of those asked to instruct as we didn't have to be associated with a flying club as PPL instructors had to be. It eventually became apparent where this was going. HC were going to set up a flying unit run by a officer with a PPL/Inst Rtg who wasn't involved in the instruction. Eventually some of the officers got PPLs. An aircraft was rented hourly from Southampton School of Flying and used for police work flown by the PPLs most very inexperienced. I argued against this practice and tried to persuade that it had to be professional trained pilots as they had exemptions from low flying rules. I warned that there would be an accident but was ignored. The unit progressed and leased an Optica flown by the same people. On 15th May 1985 (yes another accident) Gerry Spencer who I had taught to fly was flying the Optica with a photographer another policeman. I was flying a Herald off R/w 21 at Southampton (now 20) climbing towards FAW beacon and was told by ATC of an Optica transiting E to W. Gerry recognised my voice and we exchanged brief greetings. When I finished in Guernsey I went to the hotel and checked the teletext news, there it was Police Optica crashes at Ringwood two fatalities. That pretty much finished the policemen working as pilots. They then bought a BN Islander and some CPLs were used, Eventually common sense prevailed and the Hampshire Police helicopter was purchased professionally operated. A couple of good men had to die to prove what we all knew. Only properly trained pilots should be used in whatever role they are required to work. The keen amateur no matter how enthusiastic just cannot cope with the demands that sometimes crop up if not trained. Was that Optica the bug eyed funny looking thing built at Sarum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 Yes, like a helicopter at front and a pusher engine. They thought Gerry had turned too steeply, had some fuel cock issues, lost height to about 150 ft and steepened the turn to 90 degrees and went in. There was suspicion that the other policeman who had hardly flown (photographer) panicked and grabbed the stick to avoid toppling over and caused the final spiral. Apparently the bubble cockpit was difficult to cope with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 25 January, 2019 Share Posted 25 January, 2019 A minute of reflection before all next weeks PL games has been called by the EPL. Hes never even played in the league before. Surely that means we should have one every time a player dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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