The RB Conundrum

[Sarisbury Saint]

Colossal balls up letting our back up full backs leave without having a replacement in place.

[beatlesaint]

7 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

Colossal balls up letting our back up full backs leave without having a replacement in place.

Yeah and this argument that they aren’t very good only goes so far. The truth is they are options, options we have removed from the table. I’m no fan of Valery but he’s played what, 40 Prem League matches and it’s his position. No matter how average or poor he can be he’s not any worse than Stephens playing right back or god forbid Moussa or Redmond playing right wing back. 
 

Why the hell Ralph thought it was a good idea is beyond me. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[CamSaint]

The free agent market doesn't really solve any problems - you're not going to find anyone who's match fit & ready to go. Even if you could get someone without any work permit issues you'd have to ask whether, even when fully fit (& that could take some time), would they offer anything better than our current 'square peg' solutions such as Stephens? 

After all, on paper, you'd say Martina would be the obvious choice - PL experience with Saints & Everton - and an actual RB. But would anyone really want him back here? Unless KWP is going to be out for a very long time, bringing in a free agent will just add to the wage bill for someone who may never be in a position to get any game time.

[Dark Munster]

19 minutes ago, CamSaint said:

The free agent market doesn't really solve any problems - you're not going to find anyone who's match fit & ready to go. Even if you could get someone without any work permit issues you'd have to ask whether, even when fully fit (& that could take some time), would they offer anything better than our current 'square peg' solutions such as Stephens? 

After all, on paper, you'd say Martina would be the obvious choice - PL experience with Saints & Everton - and an actual RB. But would anyone really want him back here? Unless KWP is going to be out for a very long time, bringing in a free agent will just add to the wage bill for someone who may never be in a position to get any game time.

If we end up one place higher as a result that'll more than pay for the wages.

[Dark Munster]

33 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Yeah and this argument that they aren’t very good only goes so far. The truth is they are options, options we have removed from the table. I’m no fan of Valery but he’s played what, 40 Prem League matches and it’s his position. No matter how average or poor he can be he’s not any worse than Stephens playing right back or god forbid Moussa or Redmond playing right wing back. 
 

Why the hell Ralph thought it was a good idea is beyond me. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Exactly. They did the same thing with Cedric, shipping him off mid season with only Valery (!) as RB. They got away with it then so thought they could do it again. Penny wise, pound foolish.

[CamSaint]

14 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

They did the same thing with Cedric, shipping him off mid season with only Valery (!) as RB.

Actually they didn't. They brought in KWP on loan to replace Cedric. In fairness, KWP was injured when he arrived, but he started his first match for us at home against Burnley on Feb 15 2020. I don't know if Valery was injured, but JWP played RB in the few games before KWP's debut & Valery wasn't even on the bench. KWP got hooked in the Burnley match & didn't start a match for us again until the 3rd match after lockdown against Watford, having replaced Valery at 1/2 time in the previous match at home to Arsenal. In the 3 matches before lockdown following KWP's debut, JWP played RB twice & Valery once. Valery started ahead of KWP immediately after lockdown at Norwich and then again against Arsenal.

[beatlesaint]

3 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Exactly. They did the same thing with Cedric, shipping him off mid season with only Valery (!) as RB. They got away with it then so thought they could do it again. Penny wise, pound foolish.

The main difference between the Cedric and Valery loans is that Cedric was on big wages so there was some financial sense in the decision. Valery must be one of the lowest paid in the squad so the savings must be minimal.

[Dark Munster]

9 hours ago, CamSaint said:

Actually they didn't. They brought in KWP on loan to replace Cedric. In fairness, KWP was injured when he arrived, but he started his first match for us at home against Burnley on Feb 15 2020. I don't know if Valery was injured, but JWP played RB in the few games before KWP's debut & Valery wasn't even on the bench. KWP got hooked in the Burnley match & didn't start a match for us again until the 3rd match after lockdown against Watford, having replaced Valery at 1/2 time in the previous match at home to Arsenal. In the 3 matches before lockdown following KWP's debut, JWP played RB twice & Valery once. Valery started ahead of KWP immediately after lockdown at Norwich and then again against Arsenal.

I stand corrected. I remember Valery being the only senior option at the time. But playing JWP there shows we were short of options.

[DT]

I thought this was going to be about Red Bull and whether or not to rail against a possible takeover. Personally I think it would be great. Can only dream. Stick Stephens in at right back or JWP with Romeu and Diallo/Jankevitz in the middle

[Saint Garrett]

4 hours ago, DT said:

I thought this was going to be about Red Bull and whether or not to rail against a possible takeover. Personally I think it would be great. Can only dream. Stick Stephens in at right back or JWP with Romeu and Diallo/Jankevitz in the middle

Would be daft given they have never been linked with buying the club. 

Edited 17 February, 2021 by Saint Garrett

[supersonic]

I wonder if we have a recall option on Valery?

I'm guessing not as that would be as a result of us having initiative. Secondly, we surely would have recalled him by now.

The options left aren't exactly great: Stephens, Bednarek, Djenepo, JWP or do we try someone like Armstrong there in the hope that he is a little more 'solid' than the likes of one of the other wingers.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

16 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

The main difference between the Cedric and Valery loans is that Cedric was on big wages so there was some financial sense in the decision. Valery must be one of the lowest paid in the squad so the savings must be minimal.

Everyone is assuming it was a financial decision. If it was then it helped to fund Minamino. But it might simply have been that Ralph knew he wasn't going to be able to trust Valery so he might as well leave and get some experience in a lower league

[Greenridge]

2 hours ago, DT said:

Stick Stephens in at right back.

Or just play with 10. 

[Jeremy Corbyn]

With the personnel we have available, we should just flip to a 3-4-3 and be done with it:

Forster

Bednarek Vestigaard Salisu

Djenepro JWP Romeu Bertrand

Amrstrong Ings Redmond

[egg]

22 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

With the personnel we have available, we should just flip to a 3-4-3 and be done with it:

Forster

Bednarek Vestigaard Salisu

Djenepro JWP Romeu Bertrand

Amrstrong Ings Redmond

Talk of Djenepo at right wing back is crazy. He'll get mullered by Alonso/Chilwell and Werner. 

Our only available players who can stand at right back are Stephens or Ramsey. Neither are good enough, but both are preferable to Djenepo, and it allows us to retain our system.

[Bobbyboy]

Is Tommy Widdrington available?

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Talk of Djenepo at right wing back is crazy. He'll get mullered by Alonso/Chilwell and Werner. 

Our only available players who can stand at right back are Stephens or Ramsey. Neither are good enough, but both are preferable to Djenepo, and it allows us to retain our system.

I think you mean, "In Djenpo we trust"!!

😆

[VectisSaint]

31 minutes ago, Bobbyboy said:

Is Tommy Widdrington available?

Doddsy might be a better bet. Could also help out with the B team coaching.

[SKD]

9 hours ago, supersonic said:

I wonder if we have a recall option on Valery?

I'm guessing not as that would be as a result of us having initiative. Secondly, we surely would have recalled him by now.

The options left aren't exactly great: Stephens, Bednarek, Djenepo, JWP or do we try someone like Armstrong there in the hope that he is a little more 'solid' than the likes of one of the other wingers.

Valery will not get recalled because he’s absolutely rubbish. Not good enough for us and funny enough getting pelters by the Birmingham fans as well. He’ll fade off into the abyss in a year or 2. 
 

even without a recognised back up RB, we have better options than Valery. 

[Saint Garrett]

8 hours ago, SKD said:

Valery will not get recalled because he’s absolutely rubbish. Not good enough for us and funny enough getting pelters by the Birmingham fans as well. He’ll fade off into the abyss in a year or 2. 
 

even without a recognised back up RB, we have better options than Valery. 

And thats why it makes complete sense to loan them out, because even a terrible Stephens, or an out of position Bednarek or Diallo, would do a better job than Valery, same for Vokins on the other side.  I think it was the right decision to loan them both out, the club just f*cked up by not bringing in a replacement full back.

[macca155]

Stephens at RB is the best option. I'm guessing KWP is out for the majority of the remaining matches so someone needs to slot in and be a regular.

Not perfect obviously, but won't be a disaster. He'll need Redmond or Armstrong in front of him because he doesn't have the attacking prowness of a regular full back. Nevertheless he is an experienced defender and that's what we need right now.

Bigger issue for me is adapting the game plan to ensure the midfield can last the game. That is where the problems all start. Fatigue sets in, possession lost, players out of position, defence under pressure. It seems to happen every game.

Take a hard fought draw on this one.

[Greenridge]

1 hour ago, macca155 said:

Stephens at RB is the best option. 

A phrase I never thought I would see written down. 

[Roo1976]

8 minutes ago, Greenridge said:

A phrase I never thought I would see written down. 

millionaire  too ..............

[macca155]

2 hours ago, Greenridge said:

A phrase I never thought I would see written down. 

Well it's him or Ramsey and in our current predicament I'd take experience every time. He is ok, certainly doesn't deserve the ridiculous nonsense some fans throw at him. He can do a job there and that's what is required now.

In fairness the defence looks a little stronger now that we have Salisu in contention. My major point was that it doesn't matter who you have at the back, if you keep giving the ball away in midfield and have players committed upfield, you will concede goals.

Every team (including Saints) have predatory attackers who only need a few sniffs at goal. The Premier league is all about keeping attackers away from goal scoring opportunities. If they do venture into danger zone, zonal marking is employed to snuff out any threat. That's why the football is so boring these days.

A back 4 of KWP, Bendarek, Vestergaard, Bertrand, guarded by JWP, Armstrong, Diallo, and Romeu can play that game as well as anyone. However add in injuries and fitness issues, it is no surprise that the team ships goals.

I'm so looking forward to the Chelsea game.

[beatlesaint]

3 hours ago, Greenridge said:

A phrase I never thought I would see written down. 

Doesn’t make it right though

[Dusic]

Ralph talking about a switch to 3 CBs. 

Extremely frustrating that an injury to one player, a right back, potentially causes a change to the formation that the team has proven it is best suited to playing.

Can argue about bad luck with injuries etc but this is simply poor squad construction and there have been two windows in which to secure a backup full back yet a failure to do so has really disrupted the season.

 

Edited 18 February, 2021 by Dusic

[Turkish]

20 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Ralph talking about a switch to 3 CBs. 

Extremely frustrating that an injury to one player, a right back, potentially causes a change to the formation that the team has proven it is best suited to playing.

Can argue about bad luck with injuries etc but this is simply poor squad construction and there have been two windows in which to secure a backup full back yet a failure to do so has really disrupted the season.

 

I’m sure MLG will confirm but a lot of the time on FM if you suddenly change formation it fools the opposition and you can go on a good run for a few games before it gets worked out, so maybe Ralph has tried it out this week.

[Wade Garrett]

No harm changing the formation on the back of 6 straight league defeats.

Better than having an inexperienced or garbage player playing RB.

[Dusic]

This is a big problem, and ridiculous scenario for a PL side to get into.

I think our only win of the season without KWP was vs Shrewsbury.

The Bednarek experiment has failed, he is playing neither as a RB or a CB and it totally stunts the output goijg forward down that side of the pitch.

With Ramsay and Stephens already tried and discarded, there isnt really anyone else to turn to apart from risking either Redmond or Djenepo there.

With KWP likely to miss at least another 4 or 5 games we need to find something that provides a 6/10 stopgap at RB.

[S-Clarke]

7 minutes ago, Dusic said:

This is a big problem, and ridiculous scenario for a PL side to get into.

I think our only win of the season without KWP was vs Shrewsbury.

The Bednarek experiment has failed, he is playing neither as a RB or a CB and it totally stunts the output goijg forward down that side of the pitch.

With Ramsay and Stephens already tried and discarded, there isnt really anyone else to turn to apart from risking either Redmond or Djenepo there.

With KWP likely to miss at least another 4 or 5 games we need to find something that provides a 6/10 stopgap at RB.

Free transfer emergency time? Surely an option to look at now?

[Kenilworthy]

9 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Free transfer emergency time? Surely an option to look at now?

We need to look seriously at three out of contract players - right back, midfield and striker. It will be expensive. But not as expensive as relegation.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

We need to look seriously at three out of contract players - right back, midfield and striker. It will be expensive. But not as expensive as relegation.

Nobody will be fit enough to play anytime soon so it's pointless. People need to be realistic and accept that we have to go with what we have. 

[S-Clarke]

7 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

We need to look seriously at three out of contract players - right back, midfield and striker. It will be expensive. But not as expensive as relegation.

I had a quick look on Transfermkt - not really anyone of note available. Only player that stands out for me is Rafinha. RB/WB who played for Bayern etc. Released by Olympiacos in Feb. No idea if he's injured.

[Kenilworthy]

9 hours ago, egg said:

Nobody will be fit enough to play anytime soon so it's pointless. People need to be realistic and accept that we have to go with what we have. 

There are two and a half months of the season left. So we could allow a month for them to get fit and they might still help win the handfull of points we need. With Romeu probably out for some time I don't think we have enough with what he have.

[Trout-Tickler]

Given the importance of KWP to our system I don't think he should've started both games against Wolves. After recovering from an injury you always run the risk of picking up another and playing 2 games in 3 days clearly heightens that risk. He should've played one and been rested for the other to ensure his fitness for the rest of the season.

[Delmary]

The club has been totally negligent by not having suitable fullback cover.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Delmary said:

The club has been totally negligent by not having suitable fullback cover.

We always seem to leave a glaring gap in the team.

Some years it's been CB, other years CM, now full back. Not sure why we have these brain farts sometimes. It's a real toss of a coin and this time it's failed us as the first choice is injured.