Liverpool 4-0 Saints - Match Thread

[64saint]

Merse giving us praise on Sky saying '...if we play like that against teams in bottom half we'll stay up definitely, not all doom and gloom'..... 

Edited 27 November, 2021 by 64saint

[TWar]

Just now, Chez said:

I honestly don't recall him doing anything at all in the whole game other than missing the header for their fourth. Whether he was genuinely going for it or indeed whether ti was even possible get I;'m not sure.

Scored what was probably an OG for the third too, although not sure how much blame he had for that, it was coming at him fast.

[OttawaSaint]

Just now, Chez said:

I honestly don't recall him doing anything at all in the whole game other than missing the header for their fourth. Whether he was genuinely going for it or indeed whether ti was even possible get I;'m not sure.

He also ran under the ball allowing them to break and get the corner that lead to their opening goal.

[OttawaSaint]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

The team selection made sense to me tbh. Three at the back to try and firm up our defence and so Lyanco could mark the false 9 they play with. Perraud over KWP as Perraud is better at wingback, KWP is better at fullback, not so bemusing. Since we only have room for one "ten" and we desperately needed someone who could hold up the ball and provide an outball as well as winning things in the air we played our player who was best at those attributes there, Adams. This left Broja and Che as the obvious choices up top.

It didn't work, but it is a tactically sound attempt. It's not dissimilar defensively to the style that worked so well against Chelsea and in the second halves against United and City. Che playing that lone 10 role behind Broja and Armstrong is new, but I didn't hate that and to be honest our attacking endeavour and chance creation wasn't the issue today, we actually had a good couple of chances at times. 

MLG hat: So Che played in 2 positions?

Edited 27 November, 2021 by OttawaSaint

[TWar]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

When doesn't it?

When we had lower quality managers.

Our manager is better than the team he manages, therefore most of the time we lose it is either individual mistakes (last week McCarthy shitting the bed) or just our opposition outplaying us in basically every position like today.

[TWar]

Just now, OttawaSaint said:

So Che played in 2 positions?

I ment Arma, typed this quickly on my phone so didn't have time to proof read. Sorry.

[Lighthouse]

Just now, beatlesaint said:

No, but I do wonder why he played a different formation than the one that worked against Man City and, bar the sending off, Chelsea.

And oh look, he reverted to that when we are 3 down !

Probably because Liverpool would have spent all week practicing how to break down our expected formation and watching footage of our games against other big sides. Ralph had a plan, it was the wrong plan but he gave it a go and tried something to catch them on the back foot, which is what you need to get a result in these games. I don’t see how playing 4-2-2-2 with Redmond and Moi would have yielded anything better result wise.

[Chez]

 

2 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

He also ran under the ball allowing them to break and get the corner that lead to their opening goal.

wasn't sure if that was him or Bednerek. Woeful.

IMO he still has a lot to learn. He dives in all the time. Against top players you get murdered. He has time on his side, but I don't trust him. Not sure Ralph does either.

[NewYorkSaint]

One of the enduring gifts of the two 9-0s is that today's 4-0 doesn't seem bad at all, especially given the start.  When the team first announced, most on Twitter were applauding Ralph's courage in going for it with a genuinely exciting, attacking side.  It's easy to be wise after the event, but I think he'd have taken heat for anything he tried. There are rumors diallo took a knock yesterday which forced him to the bench.   None of us has the full picture.  I took positives from Broja and Tesla, and remain excited to see how December unfolds. Big month coming up. 

 

 

[saint michael]

All very predictable and score doesn’t really reflect how bad we were. I loved seeing Ralph really smiling and hugging klopp at the end. We could have saved ourself a few bob by just giving them the points and saving on the expensive travel. No soul or identity in club. That is not based on winning or losing but on style of way we play. 

[TWar]

5 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

No, but I do wonder why he played a different formation than the one that worked against Man City and, bar the sending off, Chelsea.

And oh look, he reverted to that when we are 3 down !

I imagine he reverted because he wanted to have a go at coming back and getting a draw and the 3412 is more suited to sitting deep and absorbing pressure and then catching them on the break. Its not a team that can turn round a 3-0 deficit.

 

[captainchris]

24 minutes ago, TWar said:

We were beaten by one of the best teams in the world. It was a comfortable victory but so were their victories against Arsenal and United who are much bigger and richer teams than us. It is obviously a shame we lost but this isn't the end of the world.

The usual suspects will already blame the manager as if a good manager would easily brush aside a team like liverpool with our players. We played a back 3, it was effective against Chelsea earlier in the season and the second halves against United and City so there is definitely logic for using it, they were just too good. We deployed Che as a deeper 10 behind the two forwards which in my opinion isn't a bad shout and didn't cause the loss, Liverpools sheer quality caused the loss.

We deployed Che where ????? Lol Hardly !

Ralph plays with no midfield most games and in this league you cannot do that. As for against Liverpool, it’s suicide.

The problem is not too few forwards in our team selection, it’s too many 

What our coaches do all week is also worrying. Indeed does Ralph coach at all…. 
Yes yes it’s Liverpool, we know that but Christ we were very poor, tactically useless and badly managed.

 

 

 

 

[The Kraken]

7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Probably because Liverpool would have spent all week practicing how to break down our expected formation and watching footage of our games against other big sides. Ralph had a plan, it was the wrong plan but he gave it a go and tried something to catch them on the back foot, which is what you need to get a result in these games. I don’t see how playing 4-2-2-2 with Redmond and Moi would have yielded anything better result wise.

Playing 4 at the back or 3/5 is not the big miss for me. I don’t mind going with 3 CBs at all, especially against top sides. For me I thought having 3 up top was the bigger mistake, or Che as a 10, whatever we want to classify it as. I think having Diallo in there instead of one of the top three would have set us up a little bit more solidly. We’d have lost this game whatever happened, so we shouldn’t die in a ditch over it, but imo 3 up top was too cavalier and gave them every opportunity to play through us. The fact we changed it wholesale at HT says Ralph knows it was a mistake too, he chose to go back to a more settled formation.

Edited 27 November, 2021 by The Kraken

[waylander]

Was anyone seriously expecting a better result?

[Chez]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Probably because Liverpool would have spent all week practicing how to break down our expected formation and watching footage of our games against other big sides. Ralph had a plan, it was the wrong plan but he gave it a go and tried something to catch them on the back foot, which is what you need to get a result in these games. I don’t see how playing 4-2-2-2 with Redmond and Moi would have yielded anything better result wise.

you are probably right, but boy did the three striker press get exposed in that first 40 seconds and then the gap between midfield and defence was massive. IMO it had a major bearing on the first goal. Far too gung ho.

[TWar]

Just now, captainchris said:

We deployed Che where ????? Lol Hardly !

Ralph plays with no midfield most games and in this league you cannot do that. As for against Liverpool, it’s suicide.

The problem is not too few forwards in our team selection, it’s too many 

What our coaches do all week is also worrying. Indeed does Ralph coach at all…. 
Yes yes it’s Liverpool, we know that but Christ we were very poor, tactically useless and badly managed.

 

 

 

 

What? No he doesn't...

We play every game with JWP and Romeu who are a very strong midfield pairing. In front of them normally we play with two wingers/10s who press hard and take a very active role in controlling the middle of the park. Today we dropped one in order to have an extra CB to mark their false 9 and brought in our strongest hold up player in the role of single 10 to hold the ball up and give us an out ball. It didn't work too badly, we made a few chances. That was not at all why we lost.

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, waylander said:

Was anyone seriously expecting a better result?

Personally I was expecting zero points but a bit of a better performance. Formation not great but individual player errors more than played their part.

[TWar]

6 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Playing 4 at the back or 3/5 is not the big miss for me. I don’t mind going with 3 CBs at all, especially against top sides. For me I thought having 3 up top was the bigger mistake, or Che as a 10, whatever we want to classify it as. I think having Diallo in there instead of one of the top three would have set us up a little but more solidly. We’d have lost this game whatever happened, so we shouldn’t die in a ditch over but, but imo 3 up top was madness and gave them every opportunity to play through us. The fact we changed it wholesale at HT says Ralph knows it was a mistake too, he chose to go back to a more settled formation.

I think if we have a back three and also Diallo instead of Che then we create absolutely nothing. It would be 8 behind the ball and then a massive gap and then two isolated forwards. We needed atleast one 10 to connect defence and attack, my preference would be Stu but since he wasn't fit I don't mind Che in that role.

Also, I don't agree the change at half time is acknowledging it as a mistake. There is no guarantee 4222 would have done better from the start. I think it was more an acknowledgement we needed to chase the game at that point and the more defensive formation wouldn't cut it.

Edited 27 November, 2021 by TWar

[Saint Fan CaM]

Three key points to make on this…

• it was very likely we would lose this game - most teams would lose this game.
• we have far too many Championship level players and particularly in those loosely labelled as attackers…if you can’t score goals you can’t win games or even pose a threat that inhibits an opposing team from committing too many going forward.
• Ralph has no idea what to do with the players at his disposal…his is ham strung. BUT I’ve been told he does not accept criticism or advice from anyone let alone his coaching staff…they do as he commands.

This club needs new investment…it is the only way out of the stasis we’re seeing. However even if money was available wouldn’t trust the Board to spend it wisely. Not felt this despondent about the club since Lowe and that’s saying something!

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Playing 4 at the back or 3/5 is not the big miss for me. I don’t mind going with 3 CBs at all, especially against top sides. For me I thought having 3 up top was the bigger mistake, or Che as a 10, whatever we want to classify it as. I think having Diallo in there instead of one of the top three would have set us up a little but more solidly. We’d have lost this game whatever happened, so we shouldn’t die in a ditch over but, but imo 3 up top was madness and gave them every opportunity to play through us. The fact we changed it wholesale at HT says Ralph knows it was a mistake too, he chose to go back to a more settled formation.

Meh. Like I said, we gave it a go. The alternative is basically what we got under Puel, a nice safe 2-0 defeat in most of our games against the bigger teams. We never looked like getting embarrassed but we never looked like troubling our opponents either. Steady and disciplined, they could just play it easily around in front of us like a training exercise. I wouldn’t want that again, I much prefer going into big games knowing it could go like it did today or like it did at the Etihad.

[OttawaSaint]

Masterclass by Ralph to get those 2 9-0 defeats in so that 4-0 is somewhat palatable.

 

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Meh. Like I said, we gave it a go. The alternative is basically what we got under Puel, a nice safe 2-0 defeat in most of our games against the bigger teams. We never looked like getting embarrassed but we never looked like troubling our opponents either. Steady and disciplined, they could just play it easily around in front of us like a training exercise. I wouldn’t want that again, I much prefer going into big games knowing it could go like it did today or like it did at the Etihad.

Under Ralph I don’t think there’s any chance of doing a Puel! As you say, it’s all semantics, 99% of the time we lose this game whatever formation. I just think this one played right into their hands and the game was over too early, formation was a significant part of that IMO. End of the day, we got what we expected, but after any 4-0 loss it’s right that questions are asked of our set up, whoever we are playing.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Three key points to make on this…

• it was very likely we would lose this game - most teams would lose this game.
• we have far too many Championship level players and particularly in those loosely labelled as attackers…if you can’t score goals you can’t win games or even pose a threat that inhibits an opposing team from committing too many going forward.
• Ralph has no idea what to do with the players at his disposal…his is ham strung. BUT I’ve been told he does not accept criticism or advice from anyone let alone his coaching staff…they do as he commands.

This club needs new investment…it is the only way out of the stasis we’re seeing. However even if money was available wouldn’t trust the Board to spend it wisely. Not felt this despondent about the club since Lowe and that’s saying something!

To respond

• Agreed
• Championship level is harsh. They are nowhere near Liverpool level, but so are most prem players. There is a difference between championship level and midtable which is where most of our players are (JWP, Salisu, Livra are higher, Macca and Bednarek are relegations scrap level)
• I think he does have a decent idea, but no matter how good his ideas are when you are playing with such a disparity in player quality then the best you can do is set up in a way most likely to win, even if that is still quite unlikely and I think he did that today

The club needs hundreds and hundreds of millions to be at a point where we can reliably compete with a side of the quality we faced today, but that isn't happening and likely isn't the goal. We are good enough right now to be midtable imo, avoid relegation, and maybe push top half. But we aren't a team that is fit to take on CL winners like we did today.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Only a fucking half wit would go to Liverpool and play a different system than we’ve played most of the time he’s been here. I see the usual suspect is sticking up for him again, it’s getting silly now.Nobody really thinks we’d win, could  have won, or even nicked a point. They’re an unbelievably good side. But it’s about giving yourself the best opportunity to pinch something, we didn’t do this. Dead in the water once we lined up. Instead of making it difficult, we made it a piece of piss for them. Poor misjudgment from Ralph. 

[bpsaint]

Not the first team to get pumped at Anfield this season, won’t be the last. Not really worth trying to analyse too hard and looking for what went wrong, they’re just a far superior team in every way.

Next!

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

Masterclass by Ralph to get those 2 9-0 defeats in so that 4-0 is somewhat palatable.

Palatable as opposed to what? Liverpool have just beaten Man Utd and Watford 5-0, Arsenal 4-0, Porto 5-1, Norwich, Palace and Leeds 3-0. This is routine stuff.

[Chez]

8 minutes ago, captainchris said:

We deployed Che where ????? Lol Hardly !

Ralph plays with no midfield most games and in this league you cannot do that. As for against Liverpool, it’s suicide.

where is the Steven Davies type to sit in front of two deeper lying midfielders, cut out passes in their third, link play, fill gaps? I guess our 4-2-2-2 formation doesn't create a position for one, but like you say, not bolstering the middle to control games can be folly. To be fair, Liverpool just play around or through congested midfields, we also do control games with Romeu ad JWP, but I'd always add a body in midfield rather than at CB.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Only a fucking half wit would go to Liverpool and play a different system than we’ve played most of the time he’s been here. I see the usual suspect is sticking up for him again, it’s getting silly now.Nobody really thinks we’d win, could  have won, or even nicked a point. They’re an unbelievably good side. But it’s about giving yourself the best opportunity to pinch something, we didn’t do this. Dead in the water once we lined up. Instead of making it difficult, we made it a piece of piss for them. Poor misjudgment from Ralph. 

Why doesn't Ralph be more tactically flexible?

Also why doesn't he just play the same system he always plays?

He can't win with you lot, unless he wins, then you go strangely quiet.

We gave ourselves the best opportunity, it was a very small one, and it didn't come off.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The changing the formation during the game  is surely an admission an error was made. If Ralph can admit it, why can’t his fan club. 

Edited 27 November, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[OttawaSaint]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Palatable as opposed to what? Liverpool have just beaten Man Utd and Watford 5-0, Arsenal 4-0, Porto 5-1, Norwich, Palace and Leeds 3-0. This is routine stuff.

I know. It's just depressing that we barely laid a glove on them.

In any case, the Norwich loss hurts more.

[Chez]

11 minutes ago, TWar said:

What? No he doesn't...

We play every game with JWP and Romeu who are a very strong midfield pairing. In front of them normally we play with two wingers/10s who press hard and take a very active role in controlling the middle of the park. Today we dropped one in order to have an extra CB to mark their false 9 and brought in our strongest hold up player in the role of single 10 to hold the ball up and give us an out ball. It didn't work too badly, we made a few chances. That was not at all why we lost.

fair point. Why did we lose? Liverpool beat most, bit not all. How did the teams that didn't lose do it?

[TWar]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

The changing the formation half during the game  is surely an admission an error was made. If Ralph can admit it, why can’t his fan club. 

He set up defensively, it didn't work as their attack was too good and Bednarek was poor. He then needed to chase the game so changed to a more attacking formation. If he had started with the more attacking formation would we have been better off, probably not. But it was needed to overturn a 3 goal deficit.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

fair point. Why did we lose? Liverpool beat most, bit not all. How did the teams that didn't lose do it?

They probably played their tried and tested formation, got some luck, made Liverpool work for it, and caught Liverpool on an off day. 
 

Edited 27 November, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

fair point. Why did we lose? Liverpool beat most, bit not all. How did the teams that didn't lose do it?

Probably a similar reason to how we drew to City, in truth. Big teams have off days, small teams get lucky. If these two things coincide then they drop points but with the increasing quality of top teams it happens depressingly less and less often.

[Vancouver Saint]

Onwards. Early goal killed it - did others notice our win percentage chance was 2% after Liverpool's first goal! 

We needed Liverpool to be off their game and for us to play at the top of ours to get anything out of this - unfortunately they were on absolutely top form and pretty much everything fell for them. Their second goal would have been called back for handball if it were us - that's how it goes.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - I'm not afraid to admit I was happy to see our 'crazy' formation before kick-off - told me we were going to try to take it to them, yet still have five at the back if needed. So, it didn't work because we never got a chance to get settled - Bednarek got nutmegged for the first goal.

Positives for me...we kept going. Lyanco looked good to me (don't get the criticism on here). Salisu solid. Perraut played well. Tella did well both going forwards and running back. We should have scored - Armstrong could/should have had a couple. Anyone who plays the game knows how difficult it is to maintain energy and drive when you know the game is lost - 3-0 down after half an hour and the game is gone.

Broja, Adams and Armstrong together against lesser teams could be a winner.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

He set up defensively, it didn't work as their attack was too good and Bednarek was poor. He then needed to chase the game so changed to a more attacking formation. If he had started with the more attacking formation would we have been better off, probably not. But it was needed to overturn a 3 goal deficit.

Is there anything Ralph could do without you defending him. I reckon he could play Walcott in nets and you’d hail it as a master stroke. 

[Bob76]

35 minutes ago, TWar said:

That was down to two pretty poor goalkeeping errors.

So - last week was just the keepers fault, this week just better opposition(I agree they are better but no need to surrender from minute one)

Does the manager ever get to take any responsibility.

[vectraman]

18 minutes ago, waylander said:

Was anyone seriously expecting a better result?

This. Lots of teams get spanked by Liverpool. 4-0 not the worst result. Arsenal looked appalling against them last week, we are not alone….

[egg]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

He set up defensively, it didn't work as their attack was too good and Bednarek was poor. He then needed to chase the game so changed to a more attacking formation. If he had started with the more attacking formation would we have been better off, probably not. But it was needed to overturn a 3 goal deficit.

He got it wrong, pure and simple. He gave away the midfield, Adams as a kind of false 9 went as badly as you'd expect, 3 at the back went badly. Staggering that you defend that tactical clusterfuck. 

[TWar]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Is there anything Ralph could do without you defending him. I reckon he could play Walcott in nets and you’d hail it as a master stroke. 

Yes, a lot of things. I have criticised him in the past for playing Redmond over Adams, for example. I don't often criticise him, as I don't often find his actions worthy of criticism, as he is a good manager.

[Chez]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

Probably a similar reason to how we drew to City, in truth. Big teams have off days, small teams get lucky. If these two things coincide then they drop points but with the increasing quality of top teams it happens depressingly less and less often.

cant argue with that, but three strikers pressing and easily bypassed lead to the first goal. It not like we woudn't have pressed if we had gone 4-2-2-2, but in the first five minutes they ripped us to shreds and the gaps caused by the formation and having three strikers really far forward were a big reason for that IMO.

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Bob76 said:

So - last week was just the keepers fault, this week just better opposition(I agree they are better but no need to surrender from minute one)

Does the manager ever get to take any responsibility.

If he makes a mistake, yeah. But tbh when you have a manager who managers at Champions league level, like Ralph. And a team who spends like 2nd least in the league then a lot of the time (I'd argue most of the time), it will be down to the players.

[Toadhall Saint]

4 minutes ago, vectraman said:

This. Lots of teams get spanked by Liverpool. 4-0 not the worst result. Arsenal looked appalling against them last week, we are not alone….

And this - Christ on a bike most on here and elsewhere we’re predicting 3 nil so it was four, alot of teams will get spanked by what is one of the best teams in the world. As for Ralphs tactics - the way I see it he tried something different to start with - it didn’t pay off so he changed it. 

Edited 27 November, 2021 by Toadhall Saint

[trousers]

14 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Dead in the water once we lined up

If only you'd posted that before the start of the game, rather than waiting for the post match chat. We'd now all be hailing your prescience. 

Edited 27 November, 2021 by trousers

[TWar]

1 minute ago, egg said:

He got it wrong, pure and simple. He gave away the midfield, Adams as a kind of false 9 went as badly as you'd expect, 3 at the back went badly. Staggering that you defend that tactical clusterfuck. 

I don't think Che was a false 9, personally, I'd say he was more like a 10. 3 at the back went badly, but thats because it was up against one of the best attacks in the world. I don't think formation was the issue when you have the likes of Salah and Mane who are up there in the best in the world conversation against the likes of Bednarek.

It wasn't a "tactical clusterfuck" in the same way Liverpool getting 4+ goals against teams like United, Arsenal, Porto, etc. wasn't a tactical clusterfuck. It was a world class attack performing at a world class standard.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If Peligrino had gone to Anfield and played 4-2-4 and we got dicked , people wouldn’t be saying, “oh well, they’re better than us”. They’d be calling him a fuck wit. 

[northam soul]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

If only you'd posted that before the start of the game, rather than waiting for the post match chat. We'd now all be hailing your prescience. 

Textbook 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Peligrino had gone to Anfield and played 4-2-4 and we got dicked , people wouldn’t be saying, “oh well, they’re better than us”. They’d be calling him a fuck wit. 

You have no evidence for this. Also why a 424 and not the 3412 we actually played? A defensive formation against bigger teams is a tale as old as time.

[Boris Karloff]

People on here are so pathetic with the "he gave Klopp a hug" rubbish.

What do you want him to do? Stare at him and refuse to shake his hand bc we lost? He might be seething inside and go in and give the players hell, but he can't raise a smile for the winning manager?

I really don't think Saints lost today because Ralph gave Klopp a hug. Get over it and find something else to moan about. 

 

[captainchris]

8 minutes ago, TWar said:

What? No he doesn't...

We play every game with JWP and Romeu who are a very strong midfield pairing. In front of them normally we play with two wingers/10s who press hard and take a very active role in controlling the middle of the park. Today we dropped one in order to have an extra CB to mark their false 9 and brought in our strongest hold up player in the role of single 10 to hold the ball up and give us an out ball. It didn't work too badly, we made a few chances. That was not at all why we lost.

Oh dear….

Thanks for the tactics ‘lesson’ Ralph but I’m not buying your midfield/false 9/ 3 up front master class.

We were crap today and had no midfield, hence there were umpteen long balls in the general direction of the ‘front 3’

We also lose control of games as they wear on because we are having to cover so much ground to make up for lack of numbers in central areas. 

Your ‘very strong’ pairing of Romeu and JWP is not enough, not withstanding that neither are creative and both are defensive. ‘Very Strong’ is also a bit far fetched.

Too often we are tactically left wanting….