Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Saint86]

11 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

 

I don't buy this as a reason for them to be unhappy, if we lost on Saturday there would be the same outcome - ditto if we didn't make the Top 6. This bit feels like nonsense.

 

They had a 50% chance at recovering 40% pay cuts... Which has been cost through no fault of their own, and despite frankly incredible sporting efforts... You can't see why they'd be pissed?

[davefizzy14]

2 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

Exactly. Gibson seems to have dictated all this from the very start. 

Hopefully we can use this in the appeal. 

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

They had a 50% chance at recovering 40% pay cuts... Which has been cost through no fault of their own, and despite frankly incredible sporting efforts... You can't see why they'd be pissed?

But they'd have left anyway had we not got promoted, and got that 40% pay cut back which they cry about. And the final wasn't this cut and dried result either, Hull could have beaten us.

They'll be pissed, of course, but crying about not getting a pay rise on promotion feels a weird angle. They'd have known that when they signed.

[SaintBobby]

It seems insane. Sure we’re guilty. We cheated. But it’s like getting capital punishment for shoplifting. (Or shoplifting maybe 3 times).

[Owen The Saints]

6 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

It seems insane. Sure we’re guilty. We cheated. But it’s like getting capital punishment for shoplifting. (Or shoplifting maybe 3 times).

We've cheated 3 times by our own admission. Changes everything from a one-off to a culture. Fuck the final, fuck the points deduction, if I was a 1st team player I'd be telling the club to stick their contract somewhere where the sun doesn't shine. As it is it's 50/50 I'll re-new my season ticket. If our best players do leave over this, I won't be attending any more games. There is something badly wrong at SFC.

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

It seems insane. Sure we’re guilty. We cheated. But it’s like getting capital punishment for shoplifting. (Or shoplifting maybe 3 times).

Yeah, that's where it doesn't sit with me. If this happened in the regular season, I'd accept a points deduction and fine as a fair punishment if found guilty. The angle they are using here as I see it is that the playoffs are a cup competition, so separate from the league and must be dealt with differently (using the Swindon example). 

It feels like they've tied themselves up in knots, caught between two scenarios (this has never happened before) and made a right royal mess of it.

One of the rules we breached, not acting in good faith, was around when Leeds did this. That was the rule Leeds breached and they had a fine. So, how has the 'not acting in good' faith charge resulted in this, given that Leeds just got a fine? I understand there is the additional 'Spying' rule now, but we were charged with both -  I'm confused how the charges stack up and what punishment is tied in with which rule breaking.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Interesting reading through the thread. Many are saying sack Tonda etc., with others suggesting they’ll walk away from the club because of the ‘cheating’. The punishment is undoubtedly harsh and assuming the appeal is not successful, surely we the innocent supporters should feel a high level of indignation with the outcome? Surely now is the time to form a close huddle with the club and its staff in continued support and stick two proverbial fingers up at the EFL? “We will prevail” sort of position.

When I look back over the stewardship of SR, I cannot help but reflect on one disaster after another. Lack of cohesive player and coaching appointments. Embarrassing season and relegation from the Prem. And now this, with potential further decline a result of sullied reputation, lowered morale, player departures and a further reduction of squad quality. If you wanted to fuck a football club over in a slow death process, SR have seemingly developed and executed the blueprint perfectly.

Parsons head should role - he’s overseen much of the decline and his performance versus Gibson confirms his incompetence in a senior managerial capacity.

Edited 10 hours ago by Saint Fan CaM
Typo

[Saint Paul C]

The expulsion of Southampton from the play-offs is more than just an embarrassing sporting failure, it’s a textbook breakdown in internal controls and corporate governance. Basic compliance, oversight, and risk management procedures clearly failed somewhere within the executive structure of the club.

At a professional football club operating at this level, there should be multiple layers of review to prevent exactly this kind of scenario. The fact it still happened points directly to incompetence or negligence at the executive level.

Supporters, players, and staff are now the ones paying the price for failures made in the boardroom.

Accountability has to mean something, and in any properly governed organisation, senior executives responsible for this mess should be removed from their positions immediately.

[maxi_sopez]

I’m obviously gutted about playoffs. But what really really hurts/makes me feel sick is the long term consequences, the ripple effect will be huge.

- manager and staff sacked

- no director of football 

- all of the players wanting to leave.

- club reputation in tatters

 

we will now be stuck in the championship doldrums for a long time (if we’re lucky).

 

all for a totally pointless thing to do. Which gained us nothing. The risk v reward is inexcusable.

Tonda great coach - but genuinely might have fucked the club for years and years.

[Saint_clark]

I know it's still raw, but I'm honestly feeling like I won't even really be following the club from here on out. I'm thinking ahead to next season and trying to imagine watching the games or even checking the results and I just don't imagine myself giving a shit at all.

[Jack]

Think there are more twists and turns yet. It’s Wednesday morning, there’s an appeal Wednesday evening, I just can’t see that the losing semi finalists will be playing at Wembley on Saturday afternoon when their 38000 tickets have already been sold to the winning semi finalists, with the only legitimate finalists being punished by the shambles of the whole situation. It’s not right. 
 

I’m disgusted by the whole thing, angry with the club, but it doesn’t feel like it’s done yet. 

[Saint_clark]

4 minutes ago, Jack said:

Think there are more twists and turns yet. It’s Wednesday morning, there’s an appeal Wednesday evening, I just can’t see that the losing semi finalists will be playing at Wembley on Saturday afternoon when their 38000 tickets have already been sold to the winning semi finalists, with the only legitimate finalists being punished by the shambles of the whole situation. It’s not right. 
 

I’m disgusted by the whole thing, angry with the club, but it doesn’t feel like it’s done yet. 

Only thing I will say is that the argument of "they won't overturn it now, it's too disruptive etc" holds no weight. Throwing us out when we'd sold out, 4 days to the game, was disruptive and they still did it. 

You can argue that we have no chance based on what we did etc but to say they won't do it purely because it's too much hassle is wrong.

[Jack]

18 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Only thing I will say is that the argument of "they won't overturn it now, it's too disruptive etc" holds no weight. Throwing us out when we'd sold out, 4 days to the game, was disruptive and they still did it. 

You can argue that we have no chance based on what we did etc but to say they won't do it purely because it's too much hassle is wrong.

Yeah I agree, they don’t give a fuck about the disruption. If the appeal is upheld, they’ve got to try and sell Boro our 38k tickets on Thursday and Friday. I just feel for Hull in all this, it’s a shit show. Putting a losing semi finalist back in is bollocks. 
 

It’d be absolutely ridiculous to overturn yesterday’s decision based on the disruption caused, but clearly we’d welcome it based on how severe the punishment is. What a mess. 

[James]

52 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I know it's still raw, but I'm honestly feeling like I won't even really be following the club from here on out. I'm thinking ahead to next season and trying to imagine watching the games or even checking the results and I just don't imagine myself giving a shit at all.

I think that it’s natural to want to disown the situation. I do agree though, how can the club expect us to continue to spend our hard earned on tickets, shirts, beers etc. when what we’ve watched this season was essentially all for nothing. The silence from the club is deafening, they need to say something. I had thought silence projected confidence, more likely at his point sheer incompetence. SR need to go, we need a fresh start away from their chaos. 

[OttawaSaint]

55 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I know it's still raw, but I'm honestly feeling like I won't even really be following the club from here on out. I'm thinking ahead to next season and trying to imagine watching the games or even checking the results and I just don't imagine myself giving a shit at all.

I feel the same. 

[Bobsmith]

I want to see some balls and competence from a club that has demonstrated a complete lack of it over the last month. Put out a message that inspires confidence, hire a top lawyer and go after the EFL, show that we don’t roll over and except unreasonable punishments and tie them up in litigation 

[St. Ciervo]

Dragan couldn't sell even if he wanted to now. It's going to be like lighting money on fire, much like what his leadership has done to our club. 

[Soton7]

There’s so many questions that need to be answered:

- who the fuck was our legal team that were so incompetent 

- why didn’t we get the best lawyers that money can buy

- why did we admit to the other two charges 

- do the EFL agree with the draconian outcome?

- we had trial by media. What connections does Gibson have to the three ‘independent’ barristers 

- how can this case be heard so quickly v the penalty (why didn’t we play the long game)

- how is this outcome fair on Hull City

This decision stinks of corruption at the highest order. Yes, we fucked up but throwing us out of the competition will set us back 10 years and will start many legal battles for all those involved. This has opened up a can of worms, and we the fans have been fucked over the most.

[bangkoksaint]

Our starting point for next season needs to be staying up……..in the Championship. Can’t believe I’m saying that but that’s the reality. Forget the final, this punishment virtually condemns the club for years to come.

[CB Fry]

4 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

 

I don't buy this as a reason for them to be unhappy, if we lost on Saturday there would be the same outcome - ditto if we didn't make the Top 6. This bit feels like nonsense.

 

Losing a match vs being removed from even contesting that match are not "the same outcome".

[maxi_sopez]

8 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Losing a match vs being removed from even contesting that match are not "the same outcome".

This. 

this is the worst outcome for player fallout. In hindsight would have been better if we lost to Boro in second leg.

[benjii]

9 minutes ago, maxi_sopez said:

This. 

this is the worst outcome for player fallout. In hindsight would have been better if we lost to Boro in second leg.

Yes, unless we miraculously get reinstated. 

[Saint_clark]

13 minutes ago, maxi_sopez said:

This. 

this is the worst outcome for player fallout. In hindsight would have been better if we lost to Boro in second leg.

It would be interesting to know what their punishment would have been if we HAD been knocked out already.

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Bobsmith said:

I want to see some balls and competence from a club that has demonstrated a complete lack of it over the last month. Put out a message that inspires confidence, hire a top lawyer and go after the EFL, show that we don’t roll over and except unreasonable punishments and tie them up in litigation 

I don’t see how we can be expected to properly prepare for an appeal within 24 hours of a decision that is on one of the most draconian in footballing history. That of itself must be grounds for a claim that the appeal process is irrational.

Someone mentioned we have signed an agreement not to refer matters to the Courts but if I was the club I would be looking at the legitimacy of that.

I would also be looking at the extent to which other clubs have been engaged in similar practices and if so why the EFL has not take action there. From what I read these practices are widespread. If other clubs have been found to have engaged in ‘spying’ what will the EFL do there ? There has to be a similar sanction - relegation  ?

We have admitted breaches and deserved a significant punishment but this is disproportionate and it can’t be said that absent the offences we would have lost the game. That’s absurd as we clearly won that second leg due to being fitter and having the better squad.

The decision is out of all kilter with the offence and it punishes the fans and players to an extent totally unnecessary. I’m not sure what the panel was thinking really and the appeal panel will have some serious thinking to do to try and correct this. 

 

 

 

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Galway saint said:

I don’t see how we can be expected to properly prepare for an appeal within 24 hours of a decision that is on one of the most draconian in footballing history. That of itself must be grounds for a claim that the appeal process is irrational.

Someone mentioned we have signed an agreement not to refer matters to the Courts but if I was the club I would be looking at the legitimacy of that.

I would also be looking at the extent to which other clubs have been engaged in similar practices and if so why the EFL has not take action there. From what I read these practices are widespread. If other clubs have been found to have engaged in ‘spying’ what will the EFL do there ? There has to be a similar sanction - relegation  ?

We have admitted breaches and deserved a significant punishment but this is disproportionate and it can’t be said that absent the offences we would have lost the game. That’s absurd as we clearly won that second leg due to being fitter and having the better squad.

The decision is out of all kilter with the offence and it punishes the fans and players to an extent totally unnecessary. I’m not sure what the panel was thinking really and the appeal panel will have some serious thinking to do to try and correct this. 

 

 

 

Almost makes you wonder if Saints have said that most clubs do it, and so the expulsion was to send a message to everyone else.

[bangkoksaint]

We are not getting reinstated 

[rallyboy]

Yesterday I fell a little bit more out of love with football, angry that my club has been so stupid and bemused at the bizarre way that the EFL have dealt with it.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that if rules are broken another club should be rewarded, they didn't go back through Leicester's results and start dishing out points to others.

The correct impact of our removal should surely be Hull straight to the Premier League, but the EFL, with their key Middlesbrough board member, have gone back in time to alter the result of a two-legged tie that they allowed to be fairly played after the offence.

We're guilty, mainly of unprofessionalism and gross stupidity, but have been severely punished over TWO seasons, and more, if you take into account the effect on players, squad and management.

There is no way the punishment fits the crime and I believe the appeal will revisit that aspect, unless the new panel gets the same briefing from the Middlesborough-driven EFL board as the first one clearly had.

For the EFL to allow this confusion to be happening three days before a final is ridiculous and like everything around this case, it only benefits Middlesbrough.

 

 

 

[Hussar Saint]

This is the final straw for me. At 51 years old and after 45 years of support, this club can fuck off!!

The whole game has been royally fucked with money and corruption and as always, it’s us who suffer. It breaks my heart thinking of all the kids who have had their dreams shattered over this.
Even if we got reinstated (we won’t) the magic has gone, it’s flat, ruined, totally stomped out!!

The stupid fuckers didn’t even win any of the games they fessed up to spying for!! 

The c**ts haven’t even addressed us on the matter!!!!!!

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Hussar Saint

[saintstowin]

I imagine if we'd lost the semi final that the punishment would have been points and fine. 

And if we hadn't done it in the play offs against a then disgruntled opponent it would have been similar. 

So the consequences are directly linked to the timing and the attention.

I doubt that's enough of an appeal.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

Starting to think the ex boro analyst and boro had this in the back pocket for awhile.

Now we've been royally stitched up by the efl and this panel.

Complete incompetence from Saints

 

[NewYorkSaint]

I think it's clear that a points deduction did not feel to the panel like enough of a sporting penalty because it didn't address the main issue that we ended up getting promoted.  They felt that chucking us out was the only option: but forgot that they're imposing pretty much  the highest penalty ever given a sporting team  A much fairer option would have been to let the final go ahead but give Hull a 2-goal advantage.    This then benefits Hull, rather than a club that was - by any independent view - fairly beaten.  It could be accompanied by large fine, football bans, etc.     I still think that if by some miracle we ended up reversing into this outcome, we could look forward to a sensational game, and hold our heads just a little higher.    Whatever happens, the club could do itself a lot of favours by getting out a statement that shows a compelling combination of contrition and determination to put right.

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, NewYorkSaint said:

I think it's clear that a points deduction did not feel to the panel like enough of a sporting penalty because it didn't address the main issue that we ended up getting promoted.  They felt that chucking us out was the only option: but forgot that they're imposing pretty much  the highest penalty ever given a sporting team  A much fairer option would have been to let the final go ahead but give Hull a 2-goal advantage.    This then benefits Hull, rather than a club that was - by any independent view - fairly beaten.  It could be accompanied by large fine, football bans, etc.     I still think that if by some miracle we ended up reversing into this outcome, we could look forward to a sensational game, and hold our heads just a little higher.    Whatever happens, the club could do itself a lot of favours by getting out a statement that shows a compelling combination of contrition and determination to put right.

You will never ever see a game played with one side being given a handicap, it's just such an amateur idea and would never get off the ground in the professional game.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

Think the appeal should be based on:-

1) Was due process followed. Thought we had 14 days to appeal the charge.

2) Proportionality of the punishment to fit the crime.

3) There's the implication that we're not the only club doing this. Is there any evidence.

[SaintNate]

Not fair on Millwall either.

Why do Boro deserve another bite when they were fucking shite in the two games played?

As bad as we look, and yeah we look like a fucking joke, the EFL looks fucking worse. 

[Katalinic]

7 minutes ago, Hussar Saint said:

This is the final straw for me. At 51 years old and after 45 years of support, this club can fuck off!!

The whole game has been royally fucked with money and corruption and as always, it’s us who suffer. It breaks my heart thinking of all the kids who have had their dreams shattered over this.
Even if we got reinstated (we won’t) the magic has gone, it’s flat, ruined, totally stomped out!!

The stupid fuckers didn’t even win any of the games they fessed up to spying for!! 
 

 

Why do you think they were the ones they fessed up to? 

This was systemic, those 2 additional games were selected as low impact in terms of result and league positions.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Katalinic said:

Why do you think they were the ones they fessed up to? 

This was systemic, those 2 additional games were selected as low impact in terms of result and league positions.

I don't think we volunteered the information, I think those two were the ones who had some sort of evidence so we admitted it. 

Of course it was systemic though, probably every single game.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

I don't think we volunteered the information, I think those two were the ones who had some sort of evidence so we admitted it. 

Of course it was systemic though, probably every single game.

Uncanny / pure coincidence we went on an amazing unbeaten run with the 2 admissions.

Almost, as it, by magic at times.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

I obviously wouldn't expect it to say anything of interest, but unbelievable that a statement hasn't been made yet. Even a one liner, holding statement would be better than nothing.

The last things posted on social media are about Wembley.

[Osvaldorama]

5 minutes ago, SaintNate said:

Not fair on Millwall either.

Why do Boro deserve another bite when they were fucking shite in the two games played?

As bad as we look, and yeah we look like a fucking joke, the EFL looks fucking worse. 

Yes, if I were millwall I would not let this go. They should sue the EFL immediately. 
 

Boro have been using media pressure and Lawfare to be in the final. 

Why on earth should they be there instead of Millwall? I keep coming back to this. It makes absolutely no sense. 
 

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

I obviously wouldn't expect it to say anything of interest, but unbelievable that a statement hasn't been made yet. Even a one liner, holding statement would be better than nothing.

The last things posted on social media are about Wembley.

It's absurd isn't it. I can only assume the hierarchy of the club are in such disarray with arguments taking place that nothing is being filtered down to be put out.

[Katalinic]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I don't think we volunteered the information, I think those two were the ones who had some sort of evidence so we admitted it. 

Of course it was systemic though, probably every single game.

It seems convenient but you may be right.  The final report will make depressingly interesting reading. 

[AlexLaw76]

Guess the precedent in the league (a nod to the league and the playoffs being different competitions) is -2 points for every proven/admitted instance.

Do it in the playoffs/knock out football, you are out.

[drd]

5 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Interesting reading through the thread. Many are saying sack Tonda etc., with others suggesting they’ll walk away from the club because of the ‘cheating’. The punishment is undoubtedly harsh and assuming the appeal is not successful, surely we the innocent supporters should feel a high level of indignation with the outcome? Surely now is the time to form a close huddle with the club and its staff in continued support and stick two proverbial fingers up at the EFL? “We will prevail” sort of position.

When I look back over the stewardship of SR, I cannot help but reflect on one disaster after another. Lack of cohesive player and coaching appointments. Embarrassing season and relegation from the Prem. And now this, with potential further decline a result of sullied reputation, lowered morale, player departures and a further reduction of squad quality. If you wanted to fuck a football club over in a slow death process, SR have seemingly developed and executed the blueprint perfectly.

Parsons head should role - he’s overseen much of the decline and his performance versus Gibson confirms his incompetence in a senior managerial capacity.

When Bournemouth got the -17 deduction it brought the players and fans together in lots of ways. Saints need to summon that spirit of fuck the FL

[SaintNate]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

Yes, if I were millwall I would not let this go. They should sue the EFL immediately. 
 

Boro have been using media pressure and Lawfare to be in the final. 

Why on earth should they be there instead of Millwall? I keep coming back to this. It makes absolutely no sense. 
 

An absolute shambles. 

I have absolutely no doubt that Millwall will be exploring their options today.

I hope Hull maul Boro tbh, petty fuckers. Saints are a joke, but boro have come off so fucking sanctimonious over this. 

[Saint_clark]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Uncanny / pure coincidence we went on an amazing unbeaten run with the 2 admissions.

Almost, as it, by magic at times.

...I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm agreeing that it was systemic and that we probably spied every game? Not suggesting that we only did it for those three games.

[James]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Guess the precedent in the league (a nod to the league and the playoffs being different competitions) is -2 points for every proven/admitted instance.

Do it in the playoffs/knock out football, you are out.

The sad thing is, I wouldn’t bank on any of this forming any kind of precedent. The EFL will just continue to make it up as they go along. I hope we raise hell in litigation. 

[Katalinic]

1 minute ago, drd said:

When Bournemouth got the -17 deduction it brought the players and fans together in lots of ways. Saints need to summon that spirit of fuck the FL

The way things are going we may soon be rattling buckets asking Bournemouth to put a few quid in. 

[Saint_clark]

One thing I'd love to know is if any Prem teams observe other teams training within 72 hours. If it's happening up there but is banned in the EFL and worthy of expulsion, it kind of makes a mockery of the situation, no?

[BH_Saint]

I think expousion from the play-offs is the correct decision - Admitting to cheating in 3 games, no doubt there were other games where this also happened.

But there's no way Boro deserve to be anywhere near the playoff final. I think Boro's outrage has worked well for them there.

Eckert needs to go. Not knowing the rules is a piss-poor excuse. 

Edited 5 hours ago by BH_Saint
spelling

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

My two cents having slept on it.

We're guilty. We're idiots. There's absolutely no way we decided to spy on Oxford (no disrespect, but FFS!)/Ipswich/Borough and not the other 20 teams in the league. The marginal gains of spying must be miniscule, it just beggars belief. Whilst no defence though, I can absolutely guarantee that multiple clubs do it.

Assume it's been treated as a cup game, hence kicked out. Had it been the second round of the Carabao Cup I expect we'd hold our hands up and say fair enough, and it'd barely make a one line article in the Daily Mail.

If that's the case though and it's effectively a cup game, why has a points deduction also been applied? Seems like a double punishment to set the future precedent. Assume that's what will be wiped/reduced following appeal.

Unfortunately, it's going to have a generational impact on the club, barring some sort of miracle later today.