Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, LGTL said:

Our lot are a disgrace, but we’ve been royally done over by a far more competent, experienced and savvy board. 

This is the root of it. These type of things happen within football clubs but it’s how they’ve handled it on a professional level on different levels. Very naive and keystone cops.

It should be the cue for SR to realise football isn’t for them and sell up in quick order. 

[bpsaint]

1 minute ago, beatlesaint said:

I think the EFL have really screwed up how they’ve handled this. 
Did they not think for a second that Saints wouldn’t appeal that decision straight away? 
What they should have done is made a statement saying Southampton have appealed the ruling which will be heard on Wednesday and not made any mention of being expelled from the final

That way they didn’t need to put in that line about that decision could in turn be reversed upon the result of the appeal.

So as things stand how can Middlesbrough possibly sell tickets until Thursday when the appeal outcome is known?

If they sell tickets tomorrow and the appeal wins those tickets are null and void. 
 

There should be no way they can hold this game on Saturday with different opposition facing Hull. The logistics of it are beyond ridiculous.

 

Southampton FC have been a disgrace here, don’t get me wrong. But the EFL aren’t smelling of roses either.

Agreed. If there was a possibility of us being thrown out, then our semi final simply should not have gone ahead until the investigation and possible appeal. The EFL have made an absolute pigs ear out of this whole thing, and Hull are the ones suffering the most. 

[saintant]

48 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I have absolutely no idea how widespread this is, but someone with contacts in the game says everybody does it. If that is the case, why would anyone in the club think it was that much of a problem? 

The last few hours prove that it obviously is that much of a problem. A big pro football club should know all the rules and regulations back to front. This all smacks of a total lack of professionalism.

[trousers]

Have Ipswich and Oxford thanked us yet for highlighting security vulnerabilities in their training facilities...?

[RedArmy]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

I would hazard a guess Arsenal's training ground is like Fort Knox.

Yeah not sure I go along with the notion that we managed to spy on Arsenal and City. 
 

Which begs the question, why spy in the first place if we are capable of those performances. 

[skintsaint]

I guess if we don't get reinstated, next best thing is to pass them on their way down if they go up, after scraping to 10 points next season in the EPL.

Edited 1 hour ago by skintsaint

[TwoPints]

So I have a thought about this apparent whistleblower. How long has he been at Boro then? 

It strikes me that he may have mentioned what he'd seen at Southampton long before the matches between the two teams. Why would they not?  So have Boro been sitting on this evidence hoping that it would be useful to them at a later date? And low and behold, they get us in the play offs and knowing about our antics, merely wait for our intern to turn up, catch them red handed and cry foul play in the hope that things turn our as they have.  

If this is what really happened then had they disclosed this knowledge earlier we'd likely have got our 4 point penalty this year, still been in the playoffs and beat Boro fair and square as we did.

This whole whistleblower thing strikes me as highly suspicious. I hope our legal types have pondered about this. 

Edited 1 hour ago by TwoPints

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, bpsaint said:

Agreed. If there was a possibility of us being thrown out, then our semi final simply should not have gone ahead until the investigation and possible appeal. The EFL have made an absolute pigs ear out of this whole thing, and Hull are the ones suffering the most. 

The EFL are almost as bad as SFC. Very poor processes and policies.

When meshed with VAR and Infantino, it really is a piss poor sport these days. 

[badgerx16]

What do people think we are appealing ? Not getting the 14 days ? The punishment ?

We admitted everything and more besides.  Our only defence seems to be complete ignorance and incompetence.

The EFL can't change their minds again over the final, they'd have Hull and Middleborough sueing their arses.

Being expelled is a hard thing to take, but we weren't guaranteed to beat Hull so we are talking of a "potential" hit rather than a certain one.

[S-Clarke]

I've seen some Leeds fans applauding the EFL over this, and saying it was the right decision. I guess Bielsa doesn't count because he's Bielsa, and you know, he knows Pep.

[die Mannyschaft]

1 minute ago, Midfield_General said:

I'm starting the book on who's getting sacked, in what order, and when: 

I'll kick off —

Parsons will be first to get canned, at 5.30 on Thursday night

Most of the coaching team 3pm Friday 

PR team 1pm Saturday after the post next game is v Hull at Wembley 

Legal team not sure as find loop hole to stay.

SR for not managing this spy issue correctly from first hour Boro mention it.  Anytime in June.

Accountant who approved the spys travel and coffee expenses. Sept after we have sold a load of players. Actually SR may go after the players sales 

 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

The last few hours prove that it obviously is that much of a problem. A big pro football club should know all the rules and regulations back to front. This all smacks of a total lack of professionalism.

I’ve held seven figure contracts and you always refer back to the T&Cs you negotiated at the time of acceptance. This is really, really basic stuff.

[CanadaSaint]

I'm as angry and embarrassed as most about the club's mindless stupidity, but I don't see some of today's revelations about other instances of our "spying" making it worse unless the new instances also infringed to 72-hour rule, and I've seen no evidence of that. Those allegations are now coming out months after the fact. Seriously?

We've screwed up royally and need to admit it, but self-flagellation when the spying was legal is ridiculous. It's just doing what the sensationalist journos have done in their quest to make this issue even bigger than it already is. It seems like the committee bought into that as well.

[saintant]

49 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

It seems like Parsons was going for the fairplay mea culpa approach and no one told him how litigious

gibson was and to not admit anything.

 

Has Parsons been living on the moon?

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

What do people think we are appealing ? Not getting the 14 days ? The punishment ?

We admitted everything and more besides.  Our only defence seems to be complete ignorance and incompetence.

The EFL can't change their minds again over the final, they'd have Hull and Middleborough sueing their arses.

Being expelled is a hard thing to take, but we weren't guaranteed to beat Hull so we are talking of a "potential" hit rather than a certain one.

The appeal is just a default thing really, we were always going to do so. We'll probably appeal the severity, the game will be postponed, we'll get nowhere with it, and end up with a further 10 point deduction as Parsons admits to further occasions.

[The Wyvern]

10 minutes ago, Bobsmith said:

I don’t care about the crime, I care about the incompetence of the leadership, the PR/media team and the legal team. If we’ve been punished this harshly on weak evidence and no sporting advantage it shows how rubbish our defence was 

 

12 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Yeah, the one part I don’t agree with is why should our appeals process be expedited just because the EFL have an important game to play. We’re entitled to the 14 days and the game Saturday should be cancelled. 

 

10 minutes ago, Bobsmith said:

I don’t care about the crime, I care about the incompetence of the leadership, the PR/media team and the legal team. If we’ve been punished this harshly on weak evidence and no sporting advantage it shows how rubbish our defence was 

This is my take on it.  Unbelievably naive, ill-prepared, amateur approach.  Wheel out heavy-weight comms control and legal team, tie the process up in knots, drag it out like any other club seems to do when charges thrown at it.  We should have the resources at our disposal to do this, but instead have walked into the whole thing not realising how serious it all is and have been absolutely hammered as a result. 

[bpsaint]

9 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

Be interesting to see season tickets going on sale soon. 

If the club had even the slightest bit of sense, they would offer renewals at the absolute lowest price possible to win over the fans a little after this complete shit show.

Knowing the imbeciles running our club though they’ll probably put the prices up.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, 23rdSaint said:

I generally like your posts, but your continuous need to refer to women as "birds" is really strange.

It's not continuous. Occasionally LD types "chicks" 🙂 

[Bobsmith]

We need to go scorched earth with the EFL over this. We’re like the nice kid that never complains and is constantly taken advantage of and middlesborough are the local bully boys. If Dragan doesn’t do something then they can all leave and take the legal and media departments with them 

[James]

If the Telegraph report is accurate we have been fucking naive and outdone by a dangerous adversary in Gibson. Heads should roll.

[RedArmy]

Maybe Parsons is appealing because he didn’t get enough time to tell them about all of the other spying we did.

 

Thick CUNT. 

[Cascadia Saint]

I remember vividly how low and listless we all felt back in November as yet another SR gamble failed in Will Still.

And I remember thinking how it would take the club a long, long time to get us all back on side, and to produce a team we could truly get behind and feel proud of after the debacle of last season.

The fact that the club did JUST THAT, in the space of 6/7 months, and then have thrown it all in the fire is what pisses me off the most. We had something pretty special, or so I thought. 

I really feel for the players and us fans. The rest of the club can fuck right off if what we are starting to hear is true re: open knowledge of systematic cheating etc.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

59 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Shall we all just turn up and support hull 

I thought, due to the logistics of switching around the supports, we'd all be getting free 'boro shirts, and have to support them through gritted teeth. 🙂 

[skintsaint]

ChatGPT isn't confident..

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Pilchards said:

Saints playing ‘we didn’t know the rules card’ has screwed us up.

Once we knew we had been caught they should have got ruthless and put a plan together.
 

Parsons comments to Gibson had given them the chance to throw us under the bus and that is what they did. 200m up the shitter.

Parson you are a PRICK!

"ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a pretty basic one. One that no one seems to have told Parsons or anyone else, unfortunately. 

[Cuddles]

At least none of us can sit on the fence about this. 

 

 

We'll just have to lean up against a tree.

[saints1988]

1 minute ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Our legal dont have any football knowledge otherwise wouldn't be in this situation. We will end up getting another 2 points 

This has been handled poorly by all parties - they are an independent commission and by that nature do not care about the timelines (having a game on Saturday) the EFL do and should have prepared for this eventuality (sporting sanction) - not letting Saints or Hull sell tickets and fans making travel and accommodation plans.

Ultimately, the EFL set this rule in place (when Leeds spied on Derby in the playoffs) and should have had a punishment in place if a club was found guilty of “spying” this is the formal punishment - akin to FFP

The club are in the wrong and certain people should go for what has gone on, but this decision has one precedent to go of (200k fine) how have they come to the decision that a points deduction and forced withdrawal from the competition + loss of potential £200 Million windfall and the decision has to be swallowed without normal procedure being followed in relation to 14 days appeal.

It stinks just as much as the clubs stink on spying on other member clubs 

 

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

ChatGPT isn't confident..

Barring some miracle like we have evidence on Boro, hull and loads of other clubs doing the same thing, we are fucked tbh. 
 

Still don’t see how Boro are reinstated. That’s the most galling part of it all. Makes no sense for them to be back in 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

pretty sure it was illegal at barnsley

Just wait for the news that the season he was there, is also now under review. 🙂 

[Cuddles]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

Barring some miracle like we have evidence on Boro, hull and loads of other clubs doing the same thing, we are fucked tbh. 
 

Still don’t see how Boro are reinstated. That’s the most galling part of it all. Makes no sense for them to be back in 

The Boro but is surely media pressure. It's nuts.

[Fabrice29]

8 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I've seen some Leeds fans applauding the EFL over this, and saying it was the right decision. I guess Bielsa doesn't count because he's Bielsa, and you know, he knows Pep.

There wasn’t a rule when Bielsa done it. 

[sadoldgit]

11 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

That's because the sanctions are ridiculous.

Potentially £200m for scouting 3 teams with the 72 hour limit does not sound proportionate no matter which way you look at it.

[Bobsmith]

Its clear the commission wasn’t independent and has been used by middlesborough to overcome their inability to win on merit

Edited 1 hour ago by Bobsmith

[woodsaint1]

Spying on Oxford....fucking hell.

I can accept Boro and Ipswich due to the magnitude of both games (still incredibly naive of us), but fucking Oxford.

Its being reported that Tonda is holding his hands up and didnt realise the practice of spying wasnt allowed in England. Like come on! Just pack your things and fuck off out of the club, take Spors with you on the way

[Saint_clark]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What do people think we are appealing ? Not getting the 14 days ? The punishment ?

We admitted everything and more besides.  Our only defence seems to be complete ignorance and incompetence.

The EFL can't change their minds again over the final, they'd have Hull and Middleborough sueing their arses.

Being expelled is a hard thing to take, but we weren't guaranteed to beat Hull so we are talking of a "potential" hit rather than a certain one.

That proper process hasn't been followed I guess, which might see us get compensation if we take them to civil court but won't do anything now.

[Forester]

Like everyone else, appalled at the motive and incompetence to orchestrate spying against the rules.

However I do feel the level of punishment is too harsh, and feel strongly that we are entitled to a fair appeal.  From my experience of disciplinary and legal cases, this requires:

 

- Full disclosure by EFL panel of grounds for their decision.  This is typically a letter running to several pages (often more than ten) which should not only set out the evidence but also the considerations on punishment, options excluded, mitigation (including the fact that we admitted things and co-operated).

- I read in recent days that we will only get a brief summary today, and full letter to follow later in the summer.  But that isn’t good enough.  If we are to have fair appeal we need to know everything in that letter.

- We need time for our legal advisers to prepare the grounds for appeal.   How is this credible in 24 hours?

- And so the only fair approach is for appeal to be delayed, which means postponing final, and this to flow from the panel’s letter.

This may also sound legalistic and focussed on process, but even if we just get the points reduction reduced it is important to see this through.  It’s not about denying guilt, but just as burglary and murder don’t carry the same sentence this situation demands proportionate response.

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

There wasn’t a rule when Bielsa done it. 

But apparently it is still cheating as you get more of an advantage by scouting within 72 hours.       Apparently.

[Chez]

1 minute ago, bpsaint said:

The EFL have made an absolute pigs ear out of this whole thing

Have they? Pretty difficult circumstances, in terms of the lack of time available, created by us alone.

Personally. I thought the whole thing was a bit of a storm in a tea cup and the "crime" of spying was pretty small fry, but I guess I was completely mistaken. The punishment seems pretty harsh in comparison to Leeds. I thought we'd get a fine and maybe a pints deduction (suspended). 

That said, I also feel that the EFL have shown fucking balls for chucking us out. With the likes of UEFA and FIFA showing absolutely no regard for the game over the last few decades, it's refreshing that a governing body has done something to protect the game rather than just make money. Shame we are the ones to cop it, but that's life. 

 

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

Have they? Pretty difficult circumstances, in terms of the lack of time available, created by us alone.

Personally. I thought the whole thing was a bit of a storm in a tea cup and the "crime" of spying was pretty small fry, but I guess I was completely mistaken. The punishment seems pretty harsh in comparison to Leeds. I thought we'd get a fine and maybe a pints deduction (suspended). 

That said, I also feel that the EFL have shown fucking balls for chucking us out. With the likes of UEFA and FIFA showing absolutely no regard for the game over the last few decades, it's refreshing that a governing body has done something to protect the game rather than just make money. Shame we are the ones to cop it, but that's life. 

 

It'll look all the more ridiculous when City get a 5 point deduction for their 115 charges.

[Cuddles]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

It'll look all the more ridiculous when City get a 5 point deduction for their 115 charges.

This is the bloody great herd of elephants in the trophy room.

[obelisk]

Saints seem to have approached these charges with the idea that an expedited mea culpa would result in a heavy fine but little more. I don't suppose they expected that they'd be carted off to the guillotine for what is after all a fairly trivial and seemingly widespread practice. Maybe sidling up to "Gibbo" to offer an admission of guilt wasn't the best idea in the world either.

I'd hope that they've got some harder legal minds lined up for the appeal because they'll need to get down in the dirt if there's even a small chance of success. The likely failure of that appeal is then only going to be the start of some pretty severe ramifications. Baz in goal and Damion Downs up front might well be the best we can hope for next season.

[S-Clarke]

Quote

Parson is then understood to have told Gibson that they would accept the punishment and pay the fine.
The suggestion provoked the previously calm Gibson. His whole demeanour changed and the conversation became more barbed. Gibson made it clear that would not be acceptable to him and Middlesbrough would be seeking the toughest possible sporting sanction, which would mean Southampton’s expulsion from the play-offs. The atmosphere inside the boardroom darkened and worsened after Middlesbrough were held to a goalless draw in front of an angry and hostile Riverside crowd.

 

[hippo]

No statement tonight from Parsons to the fans who’ve been majorly fucked over, but he was so quick to blabber to Gibson and show our entire hand? 
 

Get fucked the lot of em 

Edited 1 hour ago by hippo

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Lone ranger said:

You tell them as any parent would that even good people sometimes do bad things and if you do something bad it usually affects a lot of other people too. You can also add that when you do bad stuff you should own up, say sorry and beg for forgiveness. Simples. 

Noes! That's what li'l Parsons got told, when he was a kid! 

Look where that's got us! 

🙂 

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

 

Reading this I find it very very funny MLT was sent out at half time Tuesday to tell the fans to stop singing about Spygate. Board room was obviously an awkward place. 

[The Wyvern]

2 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Saints seem to have approached these charges with the idea that an expedited mea culpa would result in a heavy fine but little more. I don't suppose they expected that they'd be carted off to the guillotine for what is after all a fairly trivial and seemingly widespread practice. Maybe sidling up to "Gibbo" to offer an admission of guilt wasn't the best idea in the world either.

I'd hope that they've got some harder legal minds lined up for the appeal because they'll need to get down in the dirt if there's even a small chance of success. The likely failure of that appeal is then only going to be the start of some pretty severe ramifications. Baz in goal and Damion Downs up front might well be the best we can hope for next season.

Anyone know which lawyers we’ve used for this?

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

 

What a fucking idiot.

He needs to be gone by Friday.

I can’t be associated with these morons, take Solak, Ankerson, Tonda and all of the rest with you.

I don’t care what happens to SFC over the next few season now but at least stop besmirching the city of my birth you shitheads. 

[skintsaint]

1 minute ago, The Wyvern said:

Anyone know which lawyers we’ve used for this?

Dr Gonzo.

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I’m wondering whether our legal team agreed to a quick turnaround believing  we’d never be chucked out & being seen to help in the hastening of a decision would earn us a lighter sanction. Probably would have done, if the other stuff hadn’t come to light at the weekend. With hindsight, we obviously should have applied time pressure on the EFL, but sticking to the strict letter of the law. Taking the maximum time to answer the charge & insist on 14 days to appeal after the full reasoning was published. 

Sadly the EFL regs allow the panel chair to, at the request of the EFL, us, or off their own back, reduce the 14 day period - the rule applies to the main disciplinary process, and the appeal.

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

Reading this I find it very very funny MLT was sent out at half time Tuesday to tell the fans to stop singing about Spygate. Board room was obviously an awkward place. 

Their judgement gets worse and worse.