#Spygate

[Turkish]

Well said Nicky Butt 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-row-latest-33949202?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwRlRTSARzmJBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeckMV3DffXRmlBwQFPP0OF1T8ECaOV-5w-RosfBwAJx7TlxOmV_0o9gLqRfw_aem_aFxi3cID-l0Pm-LtFgR9VA

 

[coalman]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Well said Nicky Butt 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-row-latest-33949202?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwRlRTSARzmJBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeckMV3DffXRmlBwQFPP0OF1T8ECaOV-5w-RosfBwAJx7TlxOmV_0o9gLqRfw_aem_aFxi3cID-l0Pm-LtFgR9VA

 

"Gibbo" needs to get on the phone sharpish and nip this kind of thing in the bud. At this rate he's going to spend so much money currying opinion in the court of public opinion that he's never going to be able to extort it back through litigation.

[CB Fry]

Lead story on BBC Breakfast sports news this morning. Still going with the "....could it be Hull vs Middlesbrough in the final" stuff.

[Toussaint]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Well said Nicky Butt 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-row-latest-33949202?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwRlRTSARzmJBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeckMV3DffXRmlBwQFPP0OF1T8ECaOV-5w-RosfBwAJx7TlxOmV_0o9gLqRfw_aem_aFxi3cID-l0Pm-LtFgR9VA

 

Fair play,l Nicky Butt.  I’ve always maintained that “spying” in this sense would only provide a very small marginal gain, if any. Tonda would know the lineup over an hour before kickoff and would know the tactics within a few minutes and could react accordingly . One would think we’d drugged or nobbled their players from the widespread reaction.

[AlexLaw76]

I guess it is a situation where we try and mitigate our way to the final on Saturday.

Boro's best/only chance of us not being there is to get proof to the EFL that we have been at this for weeks/months, and it it include involvement from those with greater influence at at the club.

We have already put the line out that this was the act of someone working alone.

To reach a decision that means we do not play against Hull, surely the 'panel' have to be very certain we gained enough sporting advantage that we cheated Boro entirely out of the fixture (or Wrexham and Derby for example). That is a huge leap to make and would require pretty concrete proof that means any appeal by Saints would be largely a waste of time, as I am sure we would appeal the shit out of it.

Now, a large fine and a few points (even suspended) would likely result in, Saints at least, "begrudgingly" accepting it as a means of 'closure', whilst then feeding the local press their story. However, Boro "Gibbo" will keep going on until they get something else (which is what Simon Jordan suggested he should do)

 

I believe time is our friend here as reaching a conclusion in (ironically) about 72 hours that has enormous ramifications is surely impossible, noting we will appeal the shit out of it if we are somehow removed from they final. Also, as for points, how can they conclude -6 is sufficient when Leicester (we know the story) got that. The real wiggle room available (IMO) is the fine. I think this will be significant when comparing to Leeds' £200k. This will be north of £1m, but then Boro Gibbo will cry foul.

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[Willo of Whiteley]

Some news outlets really are desperate for us to not be there when the simple truth is we will be.

The sooner the northern lot get over this simple fact the happier the world will be. 😂

[scumbag]

7 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

See, for me the whole premise of it being ‘morally repugnant’ plays inappropriately into Boro’s narrative. Let’s remember that the regs state that spying is unacceptable <72 hours before the teams play against each other. This in itself suggests the practice of ‘spying’ is perfectly acceptable and indeed accepted outside of 72 hours. So who’s to say it’s not a widespread practice across the entire EFL? This has to be at least a part of the context talked about.

Please, just one person in the media point this out! 

72hrs - permitted

71.59 - moral outrage, national shame, expelled, 20m to the other team to silence them, whole country behind Hull...

[Saint86]

7 hours ago, trousers said:

Blackmore making a tit of himself again here. Still doesn't know any facts (and if he does he should shut up anyway) and he's on social media calling the club morally repugnant... Meanwhile you have all and sundry in the game saying it's standard for analysts to be watching training, it's common throughout Europe and South America etc, and the premier league (the richest League in the world) doesn't even bother with a rule to stop it.

Saints are the victims at this point. Any minor offence we may have commited pales in significance to the media witch hunt and national defmation that Boro have whipped up. Normally we deserved a slap on the wrist for the initial offence... We've even got some people acting like the equivalent of a £100M (sporting chance) to 200M fine (assuming we win) and points deduction is in some way justified FFS.

The entire club is trying to stay professional, keep quiet, trying to let this wash past us and deal with the inquiry and prepare for the playoffs... And Blackmore is out there feeding the media storm and calling the club morally repugnant because it's aledged that a young lad from the club stood at a boundary fence with his mobile phone... aledged - still. The man is an idiot at times. He knows less than the telegraph journalist that said we had a spy hiding in the bushes with professional photography and sound equipment....

Edited 4 hours ago by Saint86

[Willo of Whiteley]

All that said, there are some pundits and journos that are now saying how ridiculous this all is.

Glad to see the tide is turning.

[coalman]

It's interesting just how differing the views of the two sets of fans are. Boro fans seem increasingly convinced that the EFL have already decided to kick us out. We're increasingly convinced it's a fine and points deduction.

[Saint86]

3 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

All that said, there are some pundits and journos that are now saying how ridiculous this all is.

Glad to see the tide is turning.

Hopefully they've been given a view that it's not happening and needs to try and save face.

[TestValley]

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

[Chris cooper]

1 minute ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Leave off mush ffs 

[macca155]

8 hours ago, obelisk said:

If they've found evidence of systematic rule breaking over a period of time after just a few days then it begs the question of why it hasn't previously come to light. Unless Saints fessed up to the wrongdoing of course but that would be a very stupid thing to do unless a plea deal was in place.

Only way it can happen I reckon and they would be bloody stupid to do that. 

Guess we'll find out soon.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Absolutely people will complain, and rightly fucking so.

Leicester got 6 points for systematically gaining a sporting advantage over a huge period of time (remember when the smashed us 5-0). Not only did they knowingly gain said advantage over at least 46 games, they did everything they could to prevent any investigation into it.

We cheated, I accept that. But to what extent?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

There will be plenty of complaint in the form of strong legal action. No one on the entire forum has suggested we aren't in the wrong or culpable but attempting to kick us out of the playoffs is absurd. 

[NewYorkSaint]

Some thoughts.  It's likely this wasn't just one incident. Could be 10 or more.  If we really gained advantage in each case we would not have reached playoffs.  In which case the real loser is Wrexham not Boro.  But it's impossible to know if we gained advantage. The Boro games gave no evidence of this. And it creates innumerable new problems to delay or cancel the final. To cancel the feeling of unfairness, why not give saints a deficit of one or poss 2 goals going in.  Plus a fine.  If I was offered this now I'd take it.  It would actually add to the excitement of the final.  We'd suddenly have a bunch of neutrals rooting for us. And it would feel like the result of the game either way would offer closure. Anything to this?  Haven't seen it suggested anywhere.  

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

2 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Behave if it is expulsion,  plenty can complain. The club will be one entity for certain.

The punishment needs to fit the offence. Its the EFLs issue for not clearly defining these .

[egg]

4 minutes ago, coalman said:

It's interesting just how differing the views of the two sets of fans are. Boro fans seem increasingly convinced that the EFL have already decided to kick us out. We're increasingly convinced it's a fine and points deduction.

That's understandable given the EFL press release mentioned possible appeal (either side can appeal, ie the EFL if we receive an outcome they think too generous) and postponement. The EFL could have simply said that "there is an imminent disciplinary tribunal and we will release the outcome in early course. Pending any decision to the contrary, it's business as usual". They didn't do that and instead put the prospect of a draconian verdict, and challenge, into the public arena. 

[Midfield_General]

2 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Errr, yes they can. Saints can. It’s called an appeal process. They can, they should and they will. And it would result in the final having to be moved. Which is why expulsion won’t happen. 

Saying ‘Rules are rules’ in football is the most pathetic argument imaginable. Every team and club, at every level, bends or outright ignores rules every day trying to get an advantage. 

[saintant]

8 hours ago, Turkish said:

How did they get it from that angle? The sky reporter at the crime scene said the security guards came from the left and he ran off, the picture was taken from Right and before he ran off. Maybe it’s a CCTV image but they but All rather suspect 

Agree. I keep wondering if Taylor the analyst we sacked in December who previously worked for Boro had a hand in all this.

I also wonder whether the club demanded Will Salt hand over his phone when this first broke. A forensic investigation might have shown who he'd been talking to or texting which would have been interesting.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Most disliked club in the country? Can't complain about being kicked out of the playoff final and denied a potential promotion?

All because we did something that all clubs do but were careless enough to get caught?

Have a word with yourself FFS 🤦

[macca155]

5 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

I don't think we are being charged with "systemic rule breaking". Just with the specific charge about spying on Boro.

I'm not sure you can charge someone with shoplifting and then just lob on top a charge of armed robbery or attempted murder.

Of course not, either other clubs have found evidence or Saints have admitted it. Ludicrously small chance of that.

Just annoying that the club have refused to make any meaningful comment. Allows all this conjecture to thrive.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

We could and will complain of there's expulsion as that's disproportionate. However, you highlight the relevant point that's being overlooked, namely intent. It doesn't matter that we didn't benefit from whatever happened, but we plainly intended to in what was a massive game. That'll be the focus of the tribunal. 

[Maggie May]

5 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

The 72 hour rule is what creates so many grey areas for me. If spying is so frowned upon, just ban it outright.

[Midfield_General]

3 minutes ago, NewYorkSaint said:

Some thoughts.  It's likely this wasn't just one incident. Could be 10 or more.  If we really gained advantage in each case we would not have reached playoffs.  In which case the real loser is Wrexham not Boro.  But it's impossible to know if we gained advantage. The Boro games gave no evidence of this. And it creates innumerable new problems to delay or cancel the final. To cancel the feeling of unfairness, why not give saints a deficit of one or poss 2 goals going in.  Plus a fine.  If I was offered this now I'd take it.  It would actually add to the excitement of the final.  We'd suddenly have a bunch of neutrals rooting for us. And it would feel like the result of the game either way would offer closure. Anything to this?  Haven't seen it suggested anywhere.  

No offence, but you haven’t seen it suggested anywhere because it’s a fucking stupid suggestion that an 8 year old would think of

Or James Corden

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

Agree. I keep wondering if Taylor the analyst we sacked in December who previously worked for Boro had a hand in all this.

I also wonder whether the club demanded Will Salt hand over his phone when this first broke. A forensic investigation might have shown who he'd been talking to or texting which would have been interesting.

Taylor is the grass apparently 

[Osvaldorama]

15 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Blackmore making a tit of himself again here. Still doesn't know any facts (and if he does he should shut up anyway) and he's on social media calling the club morally repugnant... Meanwhile you have all and sundry in the game saying it's standard for analysts to be watching training, it's common throughout Europe and South America etc, and the premier league (the richest League in the world) doesn't even bother with a rule to stop it.

Saints are the victims at this point. Any minor offence we may have commited pales in significance to the media witch hunt and national defmation that Boro have whipped up. Normally we deserved a slap on the wrist for the initial offence... We've even got some people acting like the equivalent of a £100M (sporting chance) to 200M fine (assuming we win) and points deduction is in some way justified FFS.

The entire club is trying to stay professional, keep quiet, trying to let this wash past us and deal with the inquiry and prepare for the playoffs... And Blackmore is out there feeding the media storm and calling the club morally repugnant because it's aledged that a young lad from the club stood at a boundary fence with his mobile phone... aledged - still. The man is an idiot at times. He knows less than the telegraph journalist that said we had a spy hiding in the bushes with professional photography and sound equipment....

It’s a joke that all of Middlesbrough’s journalists are going mental trying to get the club a bye to the final 

 

Whereas our journalists are being fucking wet wipes and buying into it all

Where are the people willing to defend saints and say how stupid this whole thing is?

 

Bunch of fannies. Can’t wait to smash hull at Wembley and annoy everyone 

[Toadhall Saint]

8 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Knowingly? I thought that was part of the hearing that has yet to take place. 

[obelisk]

9 minutes ago, TestValley said:

if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain

I think you'll find they most certainly can.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Maggie May said:

The 72 hour rule is what creates so many grey areas for me. If spying is so frowned upon, just ban it outright.

Our crime appears to be around 48 hours before wonder if the fact it’s nearer to the 72 hours then the kick off time will part of our mitigation 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Of course not, either other clubs have found evidence or Saints have admitted it. Ludicrously small chance of that.

Just annoying that the club have refused to make any meaningful comment. Allows all this conjecture to thrive.

They've done exactly the right thing. Any meaningful comment at all would just feed the story and allow Boro to counter with more newspaper bollocks. 

[Cumbria Saint]

Let's assume we are found guilty by the commission. Who decides what the punishment should be? Independent commission or EFL?

[whelk]

Call Nicky Butt as first witness

[whelk]

Are Middlesbrough players still training?

[whelk]

Also think I may even want Portsmouth to beat these cunts next season

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Knowingly? I thought that was part of the hearing that has yet to take place. 

I think TestValley is more TeesValley. 

[TestValley]

10 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

We cheated, I accept that. But to what extent?

The argument and answer to that will be 'well you won the tie'

[Adman]

12 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Even the Monkey Hangers are embarrassed  by your carry on. Punishing saints doesn’t mean rewarding Boro for appointing a weak manger who took you from challenging for first to fifth, nor failing to address your shit strikers or inability to play for more than 45 mins. 
 

Derby fans are desperate for you to go up. They think the record could go.

[Farmer Saint]

25 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Blackmore making a tit of himself again here. Still doesn't know any facts (and if he does he should shut up anyway) and he's on social media calling the club morally repugnant... Meanwhile you have all and sundry in the game saying it's standard for analysts to be watching training, it's common throughout Europe and South America etc, and the premier league (the richest League in the world) doesn't even bother with a rule to stop it.

Saints are the victims at this point. Any minor offence we may have commited pales in significance to the media witch hunt and national defmation that Boro have whipped up. Normally we deserved a slap on the wrist for the initial offence... We've even got some people acting like the equivalent of a £100M (sporting chance) to 200M fine (assuming we win) and points deduction is in some way justified FFS.

The entire club is trying to stay professional, keep quiet, trying to let this wash past us and deal with the inquiry and prepare for the playoffs... And Blackmore is out there feeding the media storm and calling the club morally repugnant because it's aledged that a young lad from the club stood at a boundary fence with his mobile phone... aledged - still. The man is an idiot at times. He knows less than the telegraph journalist that said we had a spy hiding in the bushes with professional photography and sound equipment....

I think he's morally repugnant, the fat greedy cunt. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

The 72 hour rule is what creates so many grey areas for me. If spying is so frowned upon, just ban it outright.

Agreed, but that isn't the rule. We'll be disciplined on the actual rule, not commonsense. 

[TestValley]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I think TestValley is more TeesValley. 

Romsey boy lad. You?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, TestValley said:

The argument and answer to that will be 'well you won the tie'

Give it a rest. You pissed all over us for the first half of the first game and you couldn't finish your dinner 

[egg]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

They've done exactly the right thing. Any meaningful comment at all would just feed the story and allow Boro to counter with more newspaper bollocks. 

Absolutely this. When you're accused of playing with a wonky bat, you keep your powder dry and deal with it quietly and correctly. Whatever we've done wrong to get to this point, we've dealt with it properly since. 

Edited 3 hours ago by egg

[sadoldgit]

24 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

Fair play,l Nicky Butt.  I’ve always maintained that “spying” in this sense would only provide a very small marginal gain, if any. Tonda would know the lineup over an hour before kickoff and would know the tactics within a few minutes and could react accordingly . One would think we’d drugged or nobbled their players from the widespread reaction.

Exactly. It has been blown up out of all proportion. It is one thing to break into the manager’s office and photocopy all of the dossiers, download the vids or whatever. But from what we have been privy to so far amounts to something less than a storm in a tea cup. It just goes to show how quick and effective social media is in whipping up public opinion. For some time now actual facts haven’t mattered. Give the mob a reason to get their pitchforks out and they will happily do so. The problem now is that the “mob” has grown from a few hundred in a town square to the whole country and beyond thanks to technology. There will be people in Mongolia reading about it, looking at picture of THB’s “bins” celebration and calling us cheating bastards. Whatever the club have to say about it, either pleading innocent or in mitigation, is no longer of any consequence to most people. We have been tried, found guilty and should be hanged, drawn and quartered for our sins. 

There are a few voices of reason out there, but fewer people willing to listen. Millwall have turned the hatred of their club into a badge of honour. The way things are currently going we might need to learn to do likewise!

If there is one concrete thing that has come from “Gibbo’s” smear campaign against us, it has got all of the neutrals rooting for Hull at Wembley and hoping that we get smashed.
 

[macca155]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

They've done exactly the right thing. Any meaningful comment at all would just feed the story and allow Boro to counter with more newspaper bollocks. 

Come on Hypo, they are doing what their lawyers are telling them to do. Doesn't make it right though. They are hanging their own supporters out to dry.

The story is gathering pace now, I can't watch, listen, or read any ws now without this bloody fiasco being mentioned.

Predictably we are starting to see people hitting out at each other on here. Goodness knows what will happen when we do actually know something.

 

[trousers]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Are Middlesbrough players still training?

I'll send someone up to have a look...

[Southner]

30 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Please, just one person in the media point this out! 

72hrs - permitted

71.59 - moral outrage, national shame, expelled, 20m to the other team to silence them, whole country behind Hull...

Was thinking the exact same thing yesterday. Ridiculous, hey. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Romsey boy lad. You?

Good to hear. Lower chilworth, aka lordshill. 

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, TestValley said:

The argument and answer to that will be 'well you won the tie'

It's only the outcome of the first leg that's in the frame here. The second leg was outside the 72 hour embargo period...