Four days later - should Saints still sack Tonda?

[trousers]

42 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They are working out how their first bit of comms can include how good Baz has been since being back in the building.

No wonder they're taking such a f***ing long time in that case...

Edited yesterday at 19:02 by trousers

[SNSUN]

I think the players should all hold a vote to see if they are in favour of keeping him.  Then 4 days later they should have another vote to see if things have changed.

[Farmer Saint]

I was not sure before, no now. As per usual, we have some emotional ninnies on this site, so now they seem to be changing their minds I think it's only the FA that will make us have to push him.

By the way, I have heard the bonuses for promotion next season are absolutely mindbogglingly good, to ensure we keep some of our players who are annoyed about the loss of this years.

Edited yesterday at 19:05 by Farmer Saint

[Barry the Badger]

It's also fair to say that just as people on here have clearly softened on the idea of sacking him as the anger has faded, it's entirely possible that the players are going through the same thing. 

[Mr X]

Tonda should be made to stay and the contract should stipulate it's an ongoing contract where you can't leave until promotion is achieved and each season it's not achieved a 20% wage cut... It's the only way and he owes us! 😜

that said do we want to be stuck with him he's probably useless without the spying 😂

[East Kent Saint]

Sacking him wasn't my reaction, total lack of consistent rules , punishments that pile points deduction on point deduction . Clubs being allowed to sue other clubs just to get £££ , lunatic club owners that won't sell up etc . Football needs proper regulation not the clubs getting together to agree or not agree rules , It's all bad bad overall management , like F1 , boxing , tennis rugby etc etc ...

[Badger]

16 minutes ago, Barry the Badger said:

It's also fair to say that just as people on here have clearly softened on the idea of sacking him as the anger has faded, it's entirely possible that the players are going through the same thing. 

Probably too busy doing what they would normally be doing this time of year - talking to their agents 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, LegalEagle said:

Fucking a sheep is a little different to sending a spotty intern to spy on Middlesbrough FC training for a football match. Spying is far worse. At least according to Steve Gibson.

Not if you fuck said sheep within 72 hours of meeting it. 

[Cuddles]

8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Not if you fuck said sheep within 72 hours of meeting it. 

"You can't marry a sheep you've just met"

Kristoff, Frozen (fersiwn cymraeg)

[AlexLaw76]

Throwing in a massive own goal has fucked us. Cheers Tonda.

Someone on here previously said the cupboard was empty next season. 

[Football Special]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Throwing in a massive own goal has fucked us. Cheers Tonda.

Someone on here previously said the cupboard was empty next season. 

The club will be aware of their liabilities and should have a plan based on non-promotion, they will also be due transfer fee payments but it doesn't tell us how much? 

[sadoldgit]

Not being one to miss the opportunity of starting a conspiracy theory, perhaps Dragan spelt out the financial situation to Spors and Eckert and told them it was promotion this season at all costs?

🤔

[Eire Saint]

Is there any gauge on what a possible FA sanction could be? Is there precedent? 

He broke EFL rules and there were EFL sanctions. What's the FA's role here? To enforce EFL rules? If he did this in the Prem there would be no repercussions as there are no regulations against it. So does the FA's opinion change depending on what league the manager is in? Makes no sense. 

[Cuddles]

1 minute ago, Eire Saint said:

Is there any gauge on what a possible FA sanction could be? Is there precedent? 

He broke EFL rules and there were EFL sanctions. What's the FA's role here? To enforce EFL rules? If he did this in the Prem there would be no repercussions as there are no regulations against it. So does the FA's opinion change depending on what league the manager is in? Makes no sense. 

Maybe they are looking at the alleged bullying? It's a bit odd.

[skintsaint]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Not being one to miss the opportunity of starting a conspiracy theory, perhaps Dragan spelt out the financial situation to Spors and Eckert and told them it was promotion this season at all costs?

🤔

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 hours ago, Eire Saint said:

If he did this in the Prem there would be no repercussions as there are no regulations against it.

I keep reading this pony. Do people really believe sides can go round secretly watching other sides shape, formations, set piece routines etc a day or two before they play them? You’d be done exactly the same way as Leeds were, under the “good faith” rules. 

[James]

26 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I keep reading this pony. Do people really believe sides can go round secretly watching other sides shape, formations, set piece routines etc a day or two before they play them? You’d be done exactly the same way as Leeds were, under the “good faith” rules. 

Yes, and based on that precedent presumably would be fined £200k which is irrelevant.
 

It’s a moot point though as I doubt many Premier League clubs have training grounds that can be “observed” in the same way so there’s probably no way to even get an analyst in there! 

[badgerx16]

11 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Throwing in a massive own goal has fucked us. Cheers Tonda.

Someone on here previously said the cupboard was empty next season. 

Well, if promotion was such a "must" the Board are more culpable for not going up, having appointed Still. When Tonda took the full time job even the playoffs were not much more than a pipe dream and a relegation scrap was a distinct possibility.

Edited 13 hours ago by badgerx16

[adrian lord]

Why sack our best manager since at least Koeman? Self-harm is not  a recommended strategy. 

[trousers]

8 hours ago, Eire Saint said:

Is there any gauge on what a possible FA sanction could be? Is there precedent? 

He broke EFL rules and there were EFL sanctions. What's the FA's role here? To enforce EFL rules? If he did this in the Prem there would be no repercussions as there are no regulations against it. So does the FA's opinion change depending on what league the manager is in? Makes no sense. 

I keep pondering on this myself and my conclusion always is: they'll surely have to be consistent and treat him the same as Bielsa, where their actions are/were the same.... BUT....  if Eckert did more 'bad stuff' than Bielsa did (e.g. bullying) then that could/should give the FA reason to treat him differently to Bielsa (assuming Bielsa was never accused of bullying?). The EFL rules are there to sanction clubs, not individuals, ergo the FA shouldn't be taking into account what club rules were broken when dealing with an individual. They should just be concentrating on the severity of the acts carried out, and judge that against their own 'code of conduct' rulebook.

Anyway, I'm probably sounding like a scratched record on this now so will quit going on about it!

Edited 13 hours ago by trousers

[Saint_lambden]

The whole in/out discussion is a mute point - he'll be banned for at least a year by the FA. Having said that, it completely baffles me that people think, regardless of some miracle that he avoids a ban, he should stay on as manager. It's as if Boro losing the final flicked a switch in some people and they completely forgot and forgave everything. The man who instigated a campaign of systemic rule breaking, brought the club in to national/international shame and who intimidated young interns in to cheating, then having the audacity to complain to them about the output they were providing. I don't want that representing this football club, and neither should any self-respecting fan. 

The club are just waiting for the internal review (being done by an external party) to be complete and then they will take action in terms of suspensions/sackings, which cannot come soon enough so we can at least try to move on from this whole sorry saga. 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

I keep pondering on this myself and my conclusion always is: they'll surely have to be consistent and treat him the same as Bielsa, where their actions are/were the same.... BUT....  if Eckert did more 'bad stuff' than Bielsa did (e.g. bullying) then that could/should give the FA reason to treat him differently to Bielsa (assuming Bielsa was never accused of bullying?). The EFL rules are there to sanction clubs, not individuals, ergo the FA shouldn't be taking into account what club rules were broken when dealing with an individual. They should just be concentrating on the severity of the acts carried out, and judge that against their own 'code of conduct' rulebook.

Anyway, I'm probably sounding like a scratched record on this now so will quit going on about it!

Aren't the allegations of bullying verbally only? It's an easy accusation to make by somebody who's been caught doing wrong. 

"Boo hoo. They made me do it. I didn't want to. Boo hoo"

[trousers]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Aren't the allegations of bullying verbally only? It's an easy accusation to make by somebody who's been caught doing wrong. 

Who knows? Maybe there's a trail of WhatsApp messages (or such like) which provide evidence...?

[AlexLaw76]

49 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Well, if promotion was such a "must" the Board are more culpable for not going up, having appointed Still. When Tonda took the full time job even the playoffs were not much more than a pipe dream and a relegation scrap was a distinct possibility.

only to the fans as we are fickle and generally clueless.

the very reason why Will Still was sacked and seen as such an abject failure as he had one of the very best squads' in the league which had no business being near the bottom 3. Playoffs were always a possibility when you change the manager when we did.

[Eire Saint]

8 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Maybe they are looking at the alleged bullying? It's a bit odd.

A bullying charge could set a dangerous precedent for them, are they gonna charge Pep for every time he verbally berated his players on the pitch after a game? Spurs manager for humiliating their keeper by taking him off after 20 mins? Did they punish Ferguson for launching a boot at Beckham and injuring him? Nope. Seems like theres this 'throw the book at them' approach when it comes to us. 

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

A bullying charge could set a dangerous precedent for them, are they gonna charge Pep for every time he verbally berated his players on the pitch after a game? Spurs manager for humiliating their keeper by taking him off after 20 mins? Did they punish Ferguson for launching a boot at Beckham and injuring him? Nope. Seems like theres this 'throw the book at them' approach when it comes to us. 

Depends if someone filed a bullying charge in those incidents.

This is an era where asking someone to do their job properly comes with the risk of being labelled a bully. You only have to look at politicians who get fucking pelters for failing and get labelled a bully for asking some wet lettuce with a lanyard to step up.

[sadoldgit]

36 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

The whole in/out discussion is a mute point - he'll be banned for at least a year by the FA. Having said that, it completely baffles me that people think, regardless of some miracle that he avoids a ban, he should stay on as manager. It's as if Boro losing the final flicked a switch in some people and they completely forgot and forgave everything. The man who instigated a campaign of systemic rule breaking, brought the club in to national/international shame and who intimidated young interns in to cheating, then having the audacity to complain to them about the output they were providing. I don't want that representing this football club, and neither should any self-respecting fan. 

The club are just waiting for the internal review (being done by an external party) to be complete and then they will take action in terms of suspensions/sackings, which cannot come soon enough so we can at least try to move on from this whole sorry saga. 

 

You blew three opportunities for promotion Gibbo. Get over it.

[sadoldgit]

8 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Tongue in cheek…

[Whitey Grandad]

46 minutes ago, trousers said:

Who knows? Maybe there's a trail of WhatsApp messages (or such like) which provide evidence...?

Bullying by WhatsApp? That's new.

[sadoldgit]

For all of those who are still convinced that this was the footballing crime of the century, think about this.

I don’t know about Coventry’s training ground, but should Millwall and Middlesbrough have gone up with them, absolutely anybody could spend all day watching them train any time they liked and it would not be a case of “spying.” This rule that you are so hung up on is an absolute nonsense. Just think about it for goodness sake. You can watch everything the opposition does over every match in a season and as often as you like, but you can’t watch them run around up to three days before a match? FFS, on what planet does that become such a heinous crime?

But, but, but….it’s the rules.

I’ve lost count of how many well respected figures in football who have come out and said that this is bullshit. 

No one is suggesting that we did not break a (very stupid) rule. What we are saying that the penalty should be proportionate. That does not mean throwing the club out of a final that they fully deserved to be in and sacking people.
 

[trousers]

11 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Bullying by WhatsApp? That's new.

Welcome to the 21st century Grandad...

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

For all of those who are still convinced that this was the footballing crime of the century, think about this.

I
 

We all know your bar for what is 'Crime of the Century' is pretty f-ing high.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Saint_lambden said:

The whole in/out discussion is a mute point - he'll be banned for at least a year by the FA. Having said that, it completely baffles me that people think, regardless of some miracle that he avoids a ban, he should stay on as manager. It's as if Boro losing the final flicked a switch in some people and they completely forgot and forgave everything. The man who instigated a campaign of systemic rule breaking, brought the club in to national/international shame and who intimidated young interns in to cheating, then having the audacity to complain to them about the output they were providing. I don't want that representing this football club, and neither should any self-respecting fan. 

The club are just waiting for the internal review (being done by an external party) to be complete and then they will take action in terms of suspensions/sackings, which cannot come soon enough so we can at least try to move on from this whole sorry saga. 

 

You talk a lot of sense until one considers the total lack of integrity in football. Every team cheats in every match they play.

[saintant]

16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

For all of those who are still convinced that this was the footballing crime of the century, think about this.

I don’t know about Coventry’s training ground, but should Millwall and Middlesbrough have gone up with them, absolutely anybody could spend all day watching them train any time they liked and it would not be a case of “spying.” This rule that you are so hung up on is an absolute nonsense. Just think about it for goodness sake. You can watch everything the opposition does over every match in a season and as often as you like, but you can’t watch them run around up to three days before a match? FFS, on what planet does that become such a heinous crime?

But, but, but….it’s the rules.

I’ve lost count of how many well respected figures in football who have come out and said that this is bullshit. 

No one is suggesting that we did not break a (very stupid) rule. What we are saying that the penalty should be proportionate. That does not mean throwing the club out of a final that they fully deserved to be in and sacking people.
 

Plus, imagine a scenario where replays clearly show that a player dived to win a match-winning penalty in the last seconds of a play-off semi final. There is no VAR to check the incident. Everybody just shrugs their shoulders and says 'that's football'. There is no nation wide recrimination of the player or his club. Nobody calls for them to be removed from the final and replaced by the club they defeated. Nobody calls for the player to face a lengthy ban. This whole saga has been blown up out of all proportion by pundits and journos who think nothing of blowing smoke up the arses of Man City with their 115 charges.

[AlexLaw76]

I guess Pompey cheating to win the FA Cup is no biggie around these parts....

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Anyway, I'm probably sounding like a scratched record on this now

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, Saint_lambden said:

The whole in/out discussion is a mute point - he'll be banned for at least a year by the FA. Having said that, it completely baffles me that people think, regardless of some miracle that he avoids a ban, he should stay on as manager. It's as if Boro losing the final flicked a switch in some people and they completely forgot and forgave everything. The man who instigated a campaign of systemic rule breaking, brought the club in to national/international shame and who intimidated young interns in to cheating, then having the audacity to complain to them about the output they were providing. I don't want that representing this football club, and neither should any self-respecting fan. 

The club are just waiting for the internal review (being done by an external party) to be complete and then they will take action in terms of suspensions/sackings, which cannot come soon enough so we can at least try to move on from this whole sorry saga. 

 

Im sorry but I feel you are taking this a bit far. National and international shame!! lol. No most fans of other clubs in the UK laugh at it and the comical way it was handled by us. Listen to respected foreign journalists on the BBC they think it is hilarious and came up with lots of instances of this happening all the timein Europe, where it is commonplace, they just shrugged it off. Other ex-pros who know it happens all the time, we have been hit too hard and thrown to the wolves. Iam not condoning cheating as I hate it but I dont see the way we are laying there and taking extra kickings without defending ourselves being the best way.

I feel there is a section of the fanbase that is a bit precious, as Ive stated before my Saints have been involved in many disappointing episodes in the nearly 60years Ive been supporting us, and this breach is not that great IMO.

We are victims of a superbly run agenda by Boro and Gibson who used his fanboys in the press up there to really go for it, and perhaps using them to gain an advantage by putting pressure on the club leading up to those games.

Yes we broke the rules, why we bothered at that time was the crime in my eyes, as it wasnt needed.

I do wonder if Tonda is right on the spectrum and needs to be sure, and sure again when making his plans for games. An obsession that made him lose his focus what is right or wrong. 

Finally if fans are worried about away fans calling us cheats next season, it wont matter who is in charge we will get it anyway, as much as its unpaletable 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Saint_lambden said:

The whole in/out discussion is a mute point - he'll be banned for at least a year by the FA. Having said that, it completely baffles me that people think, regardless of some miracle that he avoids a ban, he should stay on as manager. It's as if Boro losing the final flicked a switch in some people and they completely forgot and forgave everything. The man who instigated a campaign of systemic rule breaking, brought the club in to national/international shame and who intimidated young interns in to cheating, then having the audacity to complain to them about the output they were providing. I don't want that representing this football club, and neither should any self-respecting fan. 

The club are just waiting for the internal review (being done by an external party) to be complete and then they will take action in terms of suspensions/sackings, which cannot come soon enough so we can at least try to move on from this whole sorry saga. 

 

Not sure why the FA will ban him - did they punish Marcelo Bielsa in any way? 

Edited 11 hours ago by aintforever

[Sheaf Saint]

32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

For all of those who are still convinced that this was the footballing crime of the century, think about this.

I don’t know about Coventry’s training ground, but should Millwall and Middlesbrough have gone up with them, absolutely anybody could spend all day watching them train any time they liked and it would not be a case of “spying.” This rule that you are so hung up on is an absolute nonsense. Just think about it for goodness sake. You can watch everything the opposition does over every match in a season and as often as you like, but you can’t watch them run around up to three days before a match? FFS, on what planet does that become such a heinous crime?

But, but, but….it’s the rules.

I’ve lost count of how many well respected figures in football who have come out and said that this is bullshit. 

No one is suggesting that we did not break a (very stupid) rule. What we are saying that the penalty should be proportionate. That does not mean throwing the club out of a final that they fully deserved to be in and sacking people.
 

That's essentially like trying to argue that you should be let off of a speeding fine because you think the limit on that road should be higher anyway. 

However stupid you might think the rule is, the point is that it exists as one of the conditions that we signed up to when entering the competition. And if you're going to break that rule then you have to make damn sure you're clever enough about it to not get caught out by walking right into an avoidable trap and then lying about it afterwards.

[OldNick]

8 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

That's essentially like trying to argue that you should be let off of a speeding fine because you think the limit on that road should be higher anyway. 

However stupid you might think the rule is, the point is that it exists as one of the conditions that we signed up to when entering the competition. And if you're going to break that rule then you have to make damn sure you're clever enough about it to not get caught out by walking right into an avoidable trap and then lying about it afterwards.

To be fair with a speeding ticket you know the fines are set, I doubt anyone in football would feel that expulsion would be the penalty, especially after the first one issued gave a minimal penalty

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, OldNick said:

To be fair with a speeding ticket you know the fines are set, I doubt anyone in football would feel that expulsion would be the penalty, especially after the first one issued gave a minimal penalty

We were removed from a knockout competition, in line with another team cheating in a knockout competition the same season.

[James G]

Another thought is that if the FA ban him, we won't owe him any compensation as he'll be in breach of contract.

If they don't ban him, then he might stay

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Welcome to the 21st century Grandad...

I uee WhatsApp.  I never get bullied.

[Cuddles]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I uee WhatsApp.  I never get bullied.

What's your number? 😉😅

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

We all know your bar for what is 'Crime of the Century' is pretty f-ing high.

No babies were eaten in the commission of this 'crime'.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

That's essentially like trying to argue that you should be let off of a speeding fine because you think the limit on that road should be higher anyway. 

However stupid you might think the rule is, the point is that it exists as one of the conditions that we signed up to when entering the competition. And if you're going to break that rule then you have to make damn sure you're clever enough about it to not get caught out by walking right into an avoidable trap and then lying about it afterwards.

As I said, the issue isn’t about breaking the rule, it is about the proportionality of the sentence. It is about the punishment fitting the crime. As far as cheating goes this was not the crime of the century was it? I can’t be bothered to go through all of the reasons again but as far as cheating goes it was low level and with zero benefit. If you take things into account you do not impose the highest sanction going.

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

We all know your bar for what is 'Crime of the Century' is pretty f-ing high.

If you are referring to my previous comment on another thread about Huw Edwards, would you like to remind us, how many people did he kill? How many people do you know who have committed the crime of the century and walked away with a suspended sentence?

Edited 9 hours ago by sadoldgit
Added text

[trousers]

44 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I uee WhatsApp.  I never get bullied.

I never used to get bullied in the playground at a kid.... (You can probably finish this analogy for me... )

[Teamsaint1]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

We were removed from a knockout competition, in line with another team cheating in a knockout competition the same season.

There  are significant differences in the precedents and the actual  effect of the punishment though.

[Mk1J]

1 hour ago, OldNick said:

To be fair with a speeding ticket you know the fines are set, I doubt anyone in football would feel that expulsion would be the penalty, especially after the first one issued gave a minimal penalty

Exactly, if I got a £100k speeding ticket I’d be kicking off, which is a similar percentage increase.