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Massive day tomorrow.


slickmick

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One thing for sure the league will close the loophole otherwise we shall see a spate of new holding companies being registered by those clubs not already managed by one. Unless they want to face a barrage of abuse especially from those clubs with recent deductions and likely lawsuits from them I think Malwhinney will dish out our just desserts. Saints will feel aggrieved and may issue their own legal action against the Football League but in their shoes its surely better to face one than half a dozen.

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One thing for sure the league will close the loophole otherwise we shall see a spate of new holding companies being registered by those clubs not already managed by one. Unless they want to face a barrage of abuse especially from those clubs with recent deductions and likely lawsuits from them I think Malwhinney will dish out our just desserts. Saints will feel aggrieved and may issue their own legal action against the Football League but in their shoes its surely better to face one than half a dozen.
I think that you're right. I have a feeling that as the loophole does exist, they will have to abide by it and then change the rules afterwards. Because of this, we might be the lucky ones, despite how agrieved some other club might be. Fingers crossed that that is what will be decided.
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I think the FL will impose the points deduction.

 

They will risk legal action from SFC (not that we have the money to initiate such action anyway) and plead the 'spirit of the law' and not the 'letter of the law'.

 

And in my heart of hearts I think that they would be quite right to do so.

 

We should just take the hit and move on, we would expect any other club to do the same should they be in a similar position.

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I think that providing we keep/ pay most of our football debt we may just may get away with it. If we agree a reduced mortgage/overdraft there by reducing the football debt then I fear the worst, I still feel we will get 10-points anyway but sincerely hope we get away with it . Our likely league position at the end of the season will determine when its applied. If we get enough points(doubtful I Know) we will get it this season & start next year with a clean slate BEST CASE scenario IMHO.

Worst case we get relegated anyway & start next year with 10-or more Like Leeds.

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I think that whichever way the Football League decide, it will be decided at tomorrow's meeting. They won't want it to drag on like the Leeds saga did last season.

 

I can see it from both points of view, the club believe they have a watertight legal case which should see us safe from the points deduction based on the letter of the law - it's the Football League's fault that the loophole exists, it's not as if it's not been known about for years - Spurs first exploited it in 1983, albeit for different reasons, and we did the same when we floated in 1997.

 

On the other hand, I think we'd be shouting from the rooftops if we were relegated because another team were in our position and ended up staying up at our expense, so a points deduction wouldn't be unjustified.

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I think that whichever way the Football League decide, it will be decided at tomorrow's meeting. They won't want it to drag on like the Leeds saga did last season.

 

I can see it from both points of view, the club believe they have a watertight legal case which should see us safe from the points deduction based on the letter of the law - it's the Football League's fault that the loophole exists, it's not as if it's not been known about for years - Spurs first exploited it in 1983, albeit for different reasons, and we did the same when we floated in 1997.

 

On the other hand, I think we'd be shouting from the rooftops if we were relegated because another team were in our position and ended up staying up at our expense, so a points deduction wouldn't be unjustified.

 

Agree with this. It's a toss-up. I reckon SFC should just accept the verdict, either way.

 

I would accept the 10 points being deducted if we are out of the relegation zone this season, but not being deducted if we are relegated, as a compromise if offered.

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Did someone say Derby survived a point deduction in a similar circumstance?

 

Before the points deduction was introduced. I'm not certain on that but it was posted as fact on here over the weekend so probably not true!

 

 

I heard somewhere the Derby situation was exactly the same except that they got taken over the next day and honoured their debts.

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I think the FL will impose the points deduction.

 

They will risk legal action from SFC (not that we have the money to initiate such action anyway) and plead the 'spirit of the law' and not the 'letter of the law'.

 

And in my heart of hearts I think that they would be quite right to do so.

 

We should just take the hit and move on, we would expect any other club to do the same should they be in a similar position.

 

I think you're right. Our only very faint chance is if we get a buyer quickly, meet all our football debts on time, and satisfy our other creditors somehow. In other words if the outcome is much the same as it would have been if someone had bought out the existing shareholders a few weeks ago, except for the shareholders not getting the price they wanted.

 

The points deduction was introduced mostly to stop other clubs missing out because those going into administration were thus avoiding paying *football* debts... balances of transfers etc. We might just get away with it if we get back on a even keel within days and no other club loses out on a payment from us. However didn't Notts County (?) say we owe them money for McGoldrick. We're stuffed if that is correct IMO.

 

In any event we now need to get as many points as possible so that the 10 points are deducted this season, not next.

 

 

K.

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However didn't Notts County (?) say we owe them money for McGoldrick. We're stuffed if that is correct IMO.

 

 

Their chairman stated on their OS a week or so ago that we defaulted on a "six-figure" payment for McGoldrick last month.

 

Latest NC fan gossip: http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=402&fid=17&sty=2&act=1&mid=2126393829

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I think that whichever way the Football League decide, it will be decided at tomorrow's meeting. They won't want it to drag on like the Leeds saga did last season.

 

I can see it from both points of view, the club believe they have a watertight legal case which should see us safe from the points deduction based on the letter of the law - it's the Football League's fault that the loophole exists, it's not as if it's not been known about for years - Spurs first exploited it in 1983, albeit for different reasons, and we did the same when we floated in 1997.

 

On the other hand, I think we'd be shouting from the rooftops if we were relegated because another team were in our position and ended up staying up at our expense, so a points deduction wouldn't be unjustified.

 

Pretty much where I stand.

 

The League can easily hide behind the rules that would appear to state that clubs are proteced if only their holding company go into administration and not the club itself. Despite it being potentially farcial and the rules being too loose, there is a clear fallback position for the League to rely on in court.

 

There is no subjectivity or interpretation in their decision, they're just applying the laws as they stand (as crass as they may appear to be). Although some others might have a moan, I don't see how you can argue that the rules haven't been applied coreectly (although expect them to changed staright after).

 

But at the same time I can see the League invoking some catch all clause (15) (b) (ix) (app a) that overrules everything else as they can see that the situation is not what they intended regarding holding companies and soolvent football clubs.

 

The problem with that is that they then open themselves up to question for being subjective and for interpreting the rules. Regardless of whether we could pull it off, we would most defintiely have a right for that decision to be questioned (although of course winning would beb a different matter as would peraps be funding a case).

 

50/50 split for me, but that's got more positive than when I first thought about it last week.

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That's not a compromise. If a 10 point penalty is imposed then those are the rules - it comes off this season if we stay up (and therefore go down), or next season if we go down anyway.

 

In which case, we'd still have to fight to stay up so the points come off this season.

 

Yes, it is a compromise.

 

We havent broken the letter fo the rules as it stands, but have broken the spirit of them.

 

Nobody goes down because we've been let off, because we go down either way.

 

But we get a clean slate for next season.

 

Clearly a compromise. We get punished, no legal action from other CCC teams.

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I think you're right. Our only very faint chance is if we get a buyer quickly, meet all our football debts on time, and satisfy our other creditors somehow. In other words if the outcome is much the same as it would have been if someone had bought out the existing shareholders a few weeks ago, except for the shareholders not getting the price they wanted.

 

The points deduction was introduced mostly to stop other clubs missing out because those going into administration were thus avoiding paying *football* debts... balances of transfers etc. We might just get away with it if we get back on a even keel within days and no other club loses out on a payment from us. However didn't Notts County (?) say we owe them money for McGoldrick. We're stuffed if that is correct IMO.

 

In any event we now need to get as many points as possible so that the 10 points are deducted this season, not next.

 

 

K.

 

 

Thats how I interperated it. Thing is, how many buyers will this scare off ?

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Agree with this. It's a toss-up. I reckon SFC should just accept the verdict, either way.

 

I would accept the 10 points being deducted if we are out of the relegation zone this season, but not being deducted if we are relegated, as a compromise if offered.

 

Is the administrator likely to spend thousands on fighting it if it goes against us? I think not.

 

Their remit is to reclaim as much as possible for Barclays as possible so they dont care about what division we are in. It may affect our attractiveness to any potential buyer but surely they would take the worst case scenario and assume its likely to be League 1 come what may.

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If we do get a points deduction will it definately be for NEXT season?

 

Yes. Unless we manage to escape the drop this season, then they just shove the points on for this season anyway. So basically no matter what we will be in League One next season, unless we survive by more than 10 points - highly, highly unlikely.

 

Unless of course we have found this loophole in the F.A rules, and escape without a points deduction. But I'm pretty sure we'll go down anyway.

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It would be a compromise if they took the points this season regardless, but that's dodgy ground. They'd effectively be saying, you're guilty, but not guilty enough for us to impose our rules. It would make a mockery of their system, AGAIN! So sadly, they'll have to be firm on this either way.

 

I think that is a good idea, and I wouldnt dismiss it out-of-hand.

 

It looks like if they deduct points from us it would ahve to be a "discretionary" action under their own rules. So they need to punish us without making it look like its a witch hunt. If they push too hard, they probably face a messy legal battle from us.

 

The thing that will stop them implementing the letter of the law (no points away) is that if we escape relegation, another team goes down and will start legal action.

 

We are definitely going down with your proposal, one way or the other, so I reckon it might happen that way.

 

I cannot see why anyone in League 1 will contest this at the end of this season when they dont know if they will be affected by us not being on -10 points yet, and by the end of next season any legal contest will be laughed at as sour grapes.

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If they dont deduct 10 points tomorrow, every other team in the world is going to set up a PLC, transfer all the debts to it, and put it in administration. If you were the football league, what would you do?

 

Tomorrow is going to be a sad sad day imo.

 

If I was the FL I would be worried that, once again, the rules aren't watertight and we are going to look like fools again.

 

I'm expecting a lot of vitriol heading in our direction from the FL about the "spirit of the rules" and an announcement that they can't dock us points along with a statement that they are going to revise the rules.

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But at the same time I can see the League invoking some catch all clause (15) (b) (ix) (app a) that overrules everything else as they can see that the situation is not what they intended regarding holding companies and soolvent football clubs.

 

Do you (or anyone else) have the text of this please?

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Can't see us avoiding the points to be honest. Will be shocked and very happy if we do.

 

The club are going to have to show that the football club and the company are two seperate things and run seperate from one another. This will be near impossible to prove.

The finances of the company come fully from the club. The company makes little money, the club does. The debts were probably caused by the club not the company.

 

If the FL decide in our favour tomorrow then you can expect this to get very messy. People suing everyone, companies making parrent companies and so on. The potential storm that could follow will lead to more problems especially because of the current financial enviroment.

 

They will have to show the club can run by itself but as the admin guy mentioned that has funds untill the end of the season then that will go under without investment. The two are the same and that will be easily proven i'm sure.

Thankfully though we do not have Lowe or Wilde around to bring about legal action if they find against us. Because that money would be better spent elsewhere.

The dark clouds over our head will just continue if we drag it out.

If they find against us then we should just accept it. Lowe made a mistake and we should take the punishment. Then if/when we are sold we can fully start a scratch and leave this whole sorry saga to the history books.

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The rules were set up to prevent teams gaining an advantage by going into Admin and having debts written off ala Leicester and Pompey. Derby's holding Company did go into admin, however the new owners then paid off the debt in full, within days. This meant Derby did not gain an advantage from other Clubs with debt, that stayed out of admin.

As the League can not know at this early stage whether our debts will be paid off in full, I fail to see how they can make a decision tomorrow. Personally I think they'll go for the points deduction and await legal action, or will delay the decision. Either way I can not see an annoucement that we're off the hook coming tomorrow. It's either bad news or a delay.

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One thing for sure the league will close the loophole otherwise we shall see a spate of new holding companies being registered by those clubs not already managed by one. Unless they want to face a barrage of abuse especially from those clubs with recent deductions and likely lawsuits from them I think Malwhinney will dish out our just desserts. Saints will feel aggrieved and may issue their own legal action against the Football League but in their shoes its surely better to face one than half a dozen.

 

So the FA should set new rules to stop this happening in future. They should not make up new rules after the event purely out of perceived 'fairness'. This is a basic rule of law that we should be proud of in this country.

 

Any penalty will be strongly contested by saints I'm sure.

 

[FWIW and IMHO we will be relegated regardless of any points deduction this year and frankly who cares about next year - we're not going to be in a position to push for promotion from Div 1 anyway - too much work to be done. The team were so disappointing on Saturday - they never rose to the occassion.]

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I think as someone else posted the key issue for the FL will be whether we are seeking to gain a competitive advantage over our rivals by renaging on our debts

 

Couple of things then may help - the structure, the fact that this was not a voluntary admin but by Barclays, the possibility to claim some reason for the delay of a few days past the deduction deadline. But I would expect ther could also be a wait and see element. So that if somebody is trying to do the "did this on purpose to buy us for a quid and not put any money in" trick they may leave themselves room to manouvere versus a professional keep most of it together bid...

 

In other words. I think we'll be stuffed both this and next season and like others I worry we can get a squad to actually stay up, it could be more than 10 next season

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So the FA should set new rules to stop this happening in future. They should not make up new rules after the event purely out of perceived 'fairness'. This is a basic rule of law that we should be proud of in this country.

 

Any penalty will be strongly contested by saints I'm sure.[FWIW

 

and IMHO we will be relegated regardless of any points deduction this year and frankly who cares about next year - we're not going to be in a position to push for promotion from Div 1 anyway - too much work to be done. The team were so disappointing on Saturday - they never rose to the occassion.]

 

I don't think any penalty will be strongly contested by the Administrators of SFC as discussed by others in this thread. You should care about a points deduction because we could start next season in Division 1 on -10pts and more dependent on any debt not repaid. We then have a push to avoid the drop into league 2.

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I think as someone else posted the key issue for the FL will be whether we are seeking to gain a competitive advantage over our rivals by renaging on our debts

 

Couple of things then may help - the structure, the fact that this was not a voluntary admin but by Barclays, the possibility to claim some reason for the delay of a few days past the deduction deadline. But I would expect ther could also be a wait and see element. So that if somebody is trying to do the "did this on purpose to buy us for a quid and not put any money in" trick they may leave themselves room to manouvere versus a professional keep most of it together bid...

 

In other words. I think we'll be stuffed both this and next season and like others I worry we can get a squad to actually stay up, it could be more than 10 next season

 

To make matters worse we have the Notts County situation. I'm not clear if we owe them money and if we do how much but if monies do remain unpaid re McGoldrick the FL are going to start throwing books at us IMO as I assume Notts County aren't exactly flush. Makes you wonder why the decision was taken last season to reduce the funds we were owed on Walcott and did we do the same with the Bale trade as well?

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We should take any punishment dished out with good grace. If we are bought out and our debts paid off then I suspect the penalty will not be imposed. If our debts are not cleared then we deserve to be punished appropriately. This the parent company and club are not the same thing is the biggest load of ****** I have heard in ages and it is definitely not in the spirit of the game.

 

League one on minus ten points next year will be a great result as it means someone will have bought us and we will still have a club and a fresh start for the future.

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Derby's holding Company did go into admin, however the new owners then paid off the debt in full, within days. This meant Derby did not gain an advantage from other Clubs with debt, that stayed out of admin.

 

This is the main reason I think we will get the ten point deduction. Unless someone comes in quick and the deal is sorted then -10 here come :(

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To make matters worse we have the Notts County situation. I'm not clear if we owe them money and if we do how much but if monies do remain unpaid re McGoldrick the FL are going to start throwing books at us IMO as I assume Notts County aren't exactly flush. Makes you wonder why the decision was taken last season to reduce the funds we were owed on Walcott and did we do the same with the Bale trade as well?

 

We would have got even less for them so far than we actually have.

We needed money, faced with the impossibility to offload any of the overpaid crap that we have on our books for a transfer fee we had to get whatever we could into the kitty.Fortunately we got an unexpected windfall from the Crouch resale,combined with the 1.3 million we got for Davies,the Bale add on and the couple of quid we got for Safri we were able to reduce the overdraft from 6.6 million to 4 million and keep afloat.Just think if we'd have been able to offload Skacel to Ipswich for a million we'd have been able to sign a left back at 5K a week and reduce our OD to 3 million. Maybe a couple of bob left for a right back as well.Skacel,Saganowski,John,Euell the death knell of SFC. Useless all of them. Even with 500K for Dyer we'd have been better placed to survive. But whilst clubs can obtain players on loan because so many Prem clubs have so many on their books that they jump at any chance to shift some for a month or two how are we supposed to actually sell players?

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To make matters worse we have the Notts County situation. I'm not clear if we owe them money and if we do how much but if monies do remain unpaid re McGoldrick the FL are going to start throwing books at us IMO as I assume Notts County aren't exactly flush. Makes you wonder why the decision was taken last season to reduce the funds we were owed on Walcott and did we do the same with the Bale trade as well?

 

If thats not settled, Saints wont be allowed to enter the league next season, all football debt has to be settled 100%.

 

player wages, transfer fees, gate receipts owed to away teams etc.

 

I would hope the FL pays Notts Co (and takes on the money owed) to keep them going because it would be really unfair if they got into trouble because of this.

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If thats not settled, Saints wont be allowed to enter the league next season, all football debt has to be settled 100%.

 

player wages, transfer fees, gate receipts owed to away teams etc.

 

I would hope the FL pays Notts Co (and takes on the money owed) to keep them going because it would be really unfair if they got into trouble because of this.

 

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/sport/Notts-McGoldrick-Best-cash/article-867113-detail/article.html

 

Notts 'will get McGoldrick and Best cash'

 

NOTTS County will still get all of the cash they are owed by Southampton, said chairman John Armstrong-Holmes today.

The Saints are in financial meltdown in the wake of their holding company going into administration.

The Magpies are still owed money by the Championship club from the transfer of David McGoldrick in 2005.

They were due a six-figure sum at the start of February because of an appearances clause in the 21-year-old's contract when he left Meadow Lane for St Mary's.

Notts are also still owed a final five-figure sum from the south coast club for Leon Best, as part of a sell-on clause in the Coventry City striker's contract when he joined the south coast club in July 2004.

 

1x1.gif

Armstrong-Holmes said the Magpies' money is protected.

He said: "It is ring-fenced by the Football League so we will get every penny.

"I don't know when we will get it but we will.

"The problems at Southampton will have no effect at all.

 

"The Football League is due to distribute money to every club in the League this month and they will take money out of Southampton's share and give it to parties they owe money to.

"It's far from ideal that we didn't get the money when it was due but we are managing without it as best we can."

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"The Football League is due to distribute money to every club in the League this month and they will take money out of Southampton's share and give it to parties they owe money to.

 

That's not very helpful is it!!!!!!

 

they just had a Leeds fan on Radio Hampshire having a moan about how Leeds suffered from the Football League's exceptional cirumstances clause.

 

 

This was on a BBC site back in August:

 

"The Football League Board agreed that, notwithstanding the manner in which this administration has been conducted, the club should be permitted to continue in the Football League," said a statement.

 

"Consequently, the board has decided to make use of the 'exceptional circumstances' provision within the League's insolvency policy, for the first time, and agreed to transfer the club's share in The Football League to LeedsUnited 2007 Ltd. Accordingly, the club's share has now been transferred."

 

However, it is acknowledged the club did go into administration and has been unable to comply with the terms of the League's well-established insolvency policy.

 

As a result, the board determined this transfer of membership should be subject to Leeds United having a 15-point deduction applicable from the beginning of the 2007/08 season."

 

 

 

I'm not sure whether this means the exceptional circumstances was to do with allowing the transfer of the share in the League allowing Leeds to stay in the League or whether it was used to give them another points deduction.

 

My worry is that this "exceptional circumstances provision" could be used as a catch all to ensure we get a deduction.

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With such a lot at stake regarding league status and take over potential, what do you think the odds are for us surving a points deuction tomorrow?

 

IMHO, there is no way Saints will escape the 10 point deduction .... in effect a Double Whammy

 

If we get out of the bottom three, we will get a Ten point penalty, which means RELEGATION

 

If we end up in the bottom three, that means Relegation .... starting off with minus 10 points next season

 

WELL DONE RUPERT ....... The Savior of Saints .....

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I truly believe we will get the 10 point deduction.

What happens then could be anyones guess wouldn't surprise me at all if SFC lodge an appeal, uproar will then ensue by the other clubs threatened with relegation and it will drag on and on,lets hope not eh.

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