Are we skint ?

[sfc1971]

Or is it just a matter of Solicitors sorting St Markus estate ?

 

What with hardly any New faces permanent or loans. Big worry I think But surley he left us something.

[iansums]

Or is it just a matter of Solicitors sorting St Markus estate ?

 

What with hardly any New faces permanent or loans. Big worry I think But surley he left us something.

 

Be prepared for some flak!

[Noodles34]

Or is it just a matter of Solicitors sorting St Markus estate ?

 

What with hardly any New faces permanent or loans. Big worry I think But surley he left us something.

 

oh dear mate, what have you let yourself in for by starting a thread when you have only posted seven times! Dont you know, its full timers only that can discuss finances etc....

[bjk]

Be prepared for some flak!

 

Some serious flak.

[moonraker]

You can’t relate how much money the club has or does not have to transfer activity; if there is no one available that the manager believes will improve the squad then you don’t spend money no matter how much you have. NA will be well aware of the where he needs to strengthen actually doing that is the difficult part. Numerous threads on here have identified the weaknesses, with a degree of agreement, but apart from wild speculation and wishful thinking none proposed a realistic solution. In short I very much doubt we are skint, cautious and businesslike, yes.

[NorthamSteve]

no we're not skint.

[bjk]

I'm skint.

[Dog]

You ******* **** I hope you ******* die of ******* ****!!!! ****!

[once_bitterne]

I think the 'tied up in his estate' thing is a red herring. The money dried up before Markus passed on. We spent a hell of a lot the Summer before last to lure Lambert and the rest and also a lot more to get Fonte and Barnard in the January window. However, things were very different in the Summer where we only signed 3 full backs, 2 of whom were out of contract.

 

The real question is whether this lack of cash in flow is due to a decision made by Markus (and now his family) or if it is Cortese being pig headed in wanting to accomplish his goals using only money the club itself produces and not having to go, cap in hand, to the Liebherr's asking for a hand out.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

The simple answer is we only know what we've been told, and that is that the 5 year plan will continue as normal regardless of Markus' death. We can therefore assume that we still have as much or as little money available to us at the moment as we would if Markus was still with us.

 

The fact that SSN is reporting that Cortese and Adkins were watching Ecklestone on Monday, as unreliable as it often is, suggests we are still actively looking for players.

[moonraker]

I think the 'tied up in his estate' thing is a red herring. The money dried up before Markus passed on. We spent a hell of a lot the Summer before last to lure Lambert and the rest and also a lot more to get Fonte and Barnard in the January window. However, things were very different in the Summer where we only signed 3 full backs, 2 of whom were out of contract.

 

The real question is whether this lack of cash in flow is due to a decision made by Markus (and now his family) or if it is Cortese being pig headed in wanting to accomplish his goals using only money the club itself produces and not having to go, cap in hand, to the Liebherr's asking for a hand out.

Or as I said above not willing to pay for something that does not improve what we have got, and of course our LI position means attracting better players is difficult and in my humble opinion we should not pay over the odds salaries. There is far to much inflationary pressure in football already and I do not want SFC to add to it especially as we are “only visitors” to L1 a place that has many great clubs and great supporters who will only suffer from reckless spending.

[Turkish]

I think the 'tied up in his estate' thing is a red herring. The money dried up before Markus passed on. We spent a hell of a lot the Summer before last to lure Lambert and the rest and also a lot more to get Fonte and Barnard in the January window. However, things were very different in the Summer where we only signed 3 full backs, 2 of whom were out of contract.

 

The real question is whether this lack of cash in flow is due to a decision made by Markus (and now his family) or if it is Cortese being pig headed in wanting to accomplish his goals using only money the club itself produces and not having to go, cap in hand, to the Liebherr's asking for a hand out.

 

they said from day one that the club would be self funding, that investment would be relative to the league we are in and they wouldn't throw cash at the project, this is fair enough, we have spent much more in the last year or so than any other club in this league, why people fail to grasp and think we should p*ss all Liebhers cash away is beyond me.

[Toadhall Saint]

Yes we are skint in fact we haven't got a pot to **** in.

[s0108787]

they said from day one that the club would be self funding, that investment would be relative to the league we are in and they wouldn't throw cash at the project, this is fair enough, we have spent much more in the last year or so than any other club in this league, why people fail to grasp and think we should p*ss all Liebhers cash away is beyond me.

 

Bang on, and given we have one of the largest fanbases in league and some of the highest attendances, this should not pose a problem.

[Gemmel]

I think the 'tied up in his estate' thing is a red herring

 

Whether there is money availble once everything is sorted out, is another question, but to suggest it is a red herring is rubbish.

We do not even know who owns us yet, Marcus is still listed at companies house along with Cortese, as Directors, so regardless of any future plans they wont make a move until everything is formalised (You dont decorate a house your about to buy or own before all the paperwork is rubber stamped and it's official)

It could take months even years to sort out the estate of a billionare, it just doesnt happen over night.

Cortese will no doubt have access to the solicitors, for running expenses if needed (Which might well include loan players) but i doubt he has access to great dollops of cash.

That said, cash flow doesnt seem to be an issue, so may be there was cash already in place. (Paid off 3 contracts, apparently just bought a property, building a sports facility through the foundation.)

Another point of interest is that the Liebherr family already own a football club in Austria. In might be worth finding out how they fund that. When Marcus bought us, he apparently came in for some critsicism for not investing locally, so dont hold your breath that whoever takes over will do so already in love with the Red and White.

[lordswoodsaints]

The club has been setup to run self sufficiently and employing Adkins is a clear sign of this,you could call him the cheap option because he will have a track record of doing well under financial restraints as compared to a 'big name' manager who would have wanted big money to spend to maintain his reputation.

Money will be released if we get into trouble as the liebher family will want to protect their investment but since ML died I think the urgency for success also died.

 

Adkins appointment sent out the clearest message yet of the road that saints are going up.

[Weston Saint]

Inheritance Law

Under Swiss law, descendants, parents and spouses are statutory heirs. In absence of a will or inheritance contract, in principle the following applies:

 

The surviving spouse gets:

a) half of the estate if there are descendants of the deceased, or

b) three quarters of the estate if there are no descendants but parental heirs, or

c) if there are no parental heirs either, the full estate. Children always inherit in equal shares.

Statutory heirs are protected by the mandatory rules on statutory legal portions (also called forced heirship). This means that a person may not dispose of his entire estate at their discretion. Rather, their descendants, surviving parents and spouses are entitled to a portion of the estate by statutory law.

 

The statutory legal portions are based on the aforementioned statutory quotas which the statutory heirs will get if a person dies intestate. Descendants are entitled to three quarters of their statutory quota, and surviving parents and spouses each to one half of their respective statutory quota.

 

It is important to note that under Swiss law, the heirs acquire all assets and all liabilities of the deceased at the moment of death. The heirs form a simple partnership (Communauté héréditaire/Erbengemeinschaft) until the estate has been divided according to the applicable rules.

 

You may dispose of your estate either by will or by inheritance contract.

 

While the will consists of a disposition by the testator only, an inheritance contract is an agreement made by and among the testator and the statutory heirs and/or third persons.

 

Wills: The testator may either choose to:

i) write a holograph will (which needs to be entirely handwritten, signed and must include date and place), or

ii) obtain a will drawn up and certified by a notary.

In case of emergency, an oral will can be made before two witnesses.

Wills can be changed at any time. However, you should make sure to state that the new will replaces all prior dispositions made with regard to your estate.

 

Inheritance Contract: By concluding an inheritance contract, the testator may oblige themselves to bequeath their estate or a legacy to the other party (or a third party). It is also possible to conclude an inheritance contract in order to waive an inheritance. Inheritance contracts need to be certified by a notary.

[Gemmel]

Inheritance Law

Under Swiss law, descendants, parents and spouses are statutory heirs. In absence of a will or inheritance contract, in principle the following applies:

 

The surviving spouse gets:

a) half of the estate if there are descendants of the deceased, or

b) three quarters of the estate if there are no descendants but parental heirs, or

c) if there are no parental heirs either, the full estate. Children always inherit in equal shares.

Statutory heirs are protected by the mandatory rules on statutory legal portions (also called forced heirship). This means that a person may not dispose of his entire estate at their discretion. Rather, their descendants, surviving parents and spouses are entitled to a portion of the estate by statutory law.

 

The statutory legal portions are based on the aforementioned statutory quotas which the statutory heirs will get if a person dies intestate. Descendants are entitled to three quarters of their statutory quota, and surviving parents and spouses each to one half of their respective statutory quota.

 

It is important to note that under Swiss law, the heirs acquire all assets and all liabilities of the deceased at the moment of death. The heirs form a simple partnership (Communauté héréditaire/Erbengemeinschaft) until the estate has been divided according to the applicable rules.

 

I think we can safely assume that Billionaire Marcus, would have left a will.

[skintsaint]

maybe NA wanted to have a good look at the squad before going into the market?

[Turkish]

The club has been setup to run self sufficiently and employing Adkins is a clear sign of this,you could call him the cheap option because he will have a track record of doing well under financial restraints as compared to a 'big name' manager who would have wanted big money to spend to maintain his reputation.

Money will be released if we get into trouble as the liebher family will want to protect their investment but since ML died I think the urgency for success also died.

 

Adkins appointment sent out the clearest message yet of the road that saints are going up.

 

Or maybe its a sign that the club wanted an upcoming English manager, a succesful track record of two promotions from this league and who could grow with the club and work within the structure that is being set up. To suggest that we went for the cheap option is ridiculous, its not like in the PL when we constantly did this course, we are a L1 club and have attracted a successful young manager from the league above, the best we could hope or ask for. People need to get out of their heads that top flight players and managers are crawling over each other to join us and we can just wave a checkbook under their nose and get who we want.

[trousers]

Or is it just a matter of Solicitors sorting St Markus estate ?

 

What with hardly any New faces permanent or loans. Big worry I think But surley he left us something.

 

Not forgetting that Keegan didn't become our manager despite staying at the Grand Harbour days before Cortese appointed Adkins.....

[Jimmy_D]

We paid compensation for Adkins didn't we?

 

When we could have got someone unemployed for nothing?

 

Phil Brown would certainly have been a 'name' we could have got for nothing, but Cortese obviously thinks Adkins has the ability and potential to be one of the best (and we doubled the wages he was getting to bring him here).

 

I don't think it's lack of money stopping us in the transfer market, I think it's more the lack of what we're looking for. (Not to mention we already have one of the best squads in the division and already bought 3 or 4 players this season.)

[Toadhall Saint]

Or maybe its a sign that the club wanted an upcoming English manager, a succesful track record of two promotions from this league and who could grow with the club and work within the structure that is being set up. To suggest that we went for the cheap option is ridiculous, its not like in the PL when we constantly did this course, we are a L1 club and have attracted a successful young manager from the league above, the best we could hope or ask for. People need to get out of their heads that top flight players and managers are crawling over each other to join us and we can just wave a checkbook under their nose and get who we want.

 

Thats the way I see it. I don't know how much Adkins is on but you can bet its more that his last club. I suppose the not so cheap option would have been to go for broke (no pun intended) and get MON in - mind you his wages would have probably been £1m per year (or something else ridiculous) and that frankly for a L1 side/club is plain stupid. So in essence we are still paying a L1 manager more than the going rate ergo - not the cheap option.

[CanadaSaint]

This issue has been raised in numerous threads, including the "False dawn" topic, and there is absolutely nothing out there indicating that we're "skint" - apart from uninformed scaremongering on here.

 

A five year plan has multiple steps and stages. The money to boost player personnel when we move into the Championship was, I'm sure, budgeted as part of the plan. Same again should we reach the Premier League.

 

All of this is over and above the money aimed at upgrading the academy, which is a key component of the plan because it will help to make us more self sufficient.

 

Since Markus died the amount available for investment in Saints has almost certainly become a fixed sum (his formal "provision" for the future of the Club) when it probably wasn't before (because he could spend what he wanted). As Ron said, under Swiss law the estate passes to the heirs at the moment of death, so Markus's "provision" (which we were told was made before his death) is probably sitting in a dedicated account somewhere.

 

This means that, IF we've reached our budget limit for getting out of this division, we can only spend more by taking away from future provisions. We already have (probably) the most expensive squad in the division and it should be good enough for promotion, so why spend more? Other than because we've had a tough run with injuries, we probably don't need to spend more - just get these guys playing as they can, which is what Adkins is in the process of doing.

 

But perhaps we haven't reached our budget limit for getting out of this division. Perhaps there's more money there, but Cortese wasn't willing to give it to Pardew to spend.

 

We're not skint. The money is there.

[John B]

maybe NA wanted to have a good look at the squad before going into the market?

 

Seems a very good call to me

 

But getting in decent strikers/wingers on loan is not going to easy

[beatlesaint]

I might have missed something here, it wouldn't be the first time, BUT as the transfer window shut at the end of August what exactly are we supposed to go out and buy to prove we aren't skint ?

 

We can get in loans, we can get in unemployed players BUT surely Adkins needs to look and assess what he wants before we go out and get anyone......or have I totally missed the point ?

[buctootim]

I might have missed something here, it wouldn't be the first time, BUT as the transfer window shut at the end of August what exactly are we supposed to go out and buy to prove we aren't skint ?

 

We can get in loans, we can get in unemployed players BUT surely Adkins needs to look and assess what he wants before we go out and get anyone......or have I totally missed the point ?

 

You are insufficiently hysterical. Please get with the programme

[Smirking_Saint]

I don't know

[Lord Duckhunter]

I think Marcus and NC always wanted the club to be self financing, but believe that they spent the cash early on because we were so far behind the 8 ball. They walked into a shell of a Club and spent to bring in a decent first team squad. That achieved the plan was for us to stand on our own 2 feet, rather than to continue to chuck money at it. That's my opinion anyway.

[docker-p]

The simple answer is we only know what we've been told, and that is that the 5 year plan will continue as normal regardless of Markus' death. We can therefore assume that we still have as much or as little money available to us at the moment as we would if Markus was still with us.

 

The fact that SSN is reporting that Cortese and Adkins were watching Ecklestone on Monday, as unreliable as it often is, suggests we are still actively looking for players.

If true, i;m not sure why Cortese was there. More grist to the mill for those who think Cortese wants to pick the team. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent though.

[Smirking_Saint]

If true, i;m not sure why Cortese was there. More grist to the mill for those who think Cortese wants to pick the team. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent though.

 

I don't know perhaps because he will be parting with the cash ??

 

Get over it..... its boring

[Matthew Le God]

If true, i;m not sure why Cortese was there. More grist to the mill for those who think Cortese wants to pick the team. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent though.

 

Who said he was picking the team?

 

With pretty much every club in the world the final say if a player is signed is by one of the money men. After all it is their money and investing in a player is a big financial commitment. It would be daft for it to be any other way. Obviously it is not good if Cortese signs players the manager doesn't want (but there is no evidence of that), but I think he is well within his rights to refuse to sign a player recommended to him by the football staff as it is him running the money side. Signings come from consultation between the scouting staff, coaching staff and board, as it would be at any sensible club.

Edited 28 September, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

I might have missed something here, it wouldn't be the first time, BUT as the transfer window shut at the end of August what exactly are we supposed to go out and buy to prove we aren't skint ?

 

We can get in loans, we can get in unemployed players BUT surely Adkins needs to look and assess what he wants before we go out and get anyone......or have I totally missed the point ?

 

There is absolutely no basis to assume we are skint apart from the usual moaning and panicking on here. We have by far the biggest wage bill in this league, spent around £600k on new signings during the summer, i dont know how this compares to other teams in this league but i'd bet it was in the top 3. Since summer 09 we have spent more than most championship clubs on new players. I dont why we didn't sign more players in the window, no doubt there are a million theorys, we tried, Wilkins said so, but for some reason it didn't happen. I very much doubt being skint is one of them.

[CanadaSaint]

If true, i;m not sure why Cortese was there. More grist to the mill for those who think Cortese wants to pick the team. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent though.

 

I think Cortese was there because the committee approach to transfers and loans is probably still in place, although Reed's profile seems to have diminished somewhat since Adkins was hired.

[Toadhall Saint]

If true, i;m not sure why Cortese was there. More grist to the mill for those who think Cortese wants to pick the team. I'm sure it was perfectly innocent though.

 

As posted elsewhere - Perhaps he just wanted a night out with his new manager?

[Toadhall Saint]

I think Cortese was there because the committee approach to transfers and loans is probably still in place, although Reed's profile seems to have diminished somewhat since Adkins was hired.

 

Mind you Canada - he didn't (Reed) have much of a profile when Pardew was here.

[CanadaSaint]

Mind you Canada - he didn't (Reed) have much of a profile when Pardew was here.

 

I'd thought that, Toadhall, but one of the mooted reasons for the firing (or at least the disharmony that lead up to it) was a supposedly crap relationship between Pardew and Reed. Under Cortese's idea of structure, that was a battle Pardew couldn't win.

 

There was allegedly - that word again - a transfer committee composed of Cortese, Reed and the first team manager, as well as some of the scouts.

 

But the managerial search process might have tempered Cortese's thoughts on structure because Reed does seem to have slipped/been pushed back into the shadows somewhat.

 

Who knows?

[Toadhall Saint]

I'd thought that, Toadhall, but one of the mooted reasons for the firing (or at least the disharmony that lead up to it) was a supposedly crap relationship between Pardew and Reed. Under Cortese's idea of structure, that was a battle Pardew couldn't win.

 

There was allegedly - that word again - a transfer committee composed of Cortese, Reed and the first team manager, as well as some of the scouts.

 

But the managerial search process might have tempered Cortese's thoughts on structure because Reed does seem to have slipped/been pushed back into the shadows somewhat.

 

Who knows?

 

Yep heard all that too but I think those with an axe to grind (why still baffles me) were using a few selected comments to stir things up a bit. I think its a case of slipped back into the shadows. As to transfer committees they are more common than people think. Managers should never be given carte blanche - just look where that gets you, you only have to look down the road and the sorry saga that was pfc and old saggy chops.

 

I could be wrong on all counts of course but as you say "who knows"?

[SFC Forever]

Or maybe Reed has passed on the player's name and both NA and NC were there to rule over the player before acting.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

No Chairman should take a footballing decision.

Finance, personnel in fact everything but football decisions.

[bender]

Didnt we get Gully after ML passed away.

[manji]

No Chairman should take a footballing decision.

Finance, personnel in fact everything but football decisions.

 

Here we go again. Agenda , agenda , nudge , wink.

[CanadaSaint]

No Chairman should take a footballing decision.

Finance, personnel in fact everything but football decisions.

 

But players are in the personnel "grey zone", Duncan - and they're the biggest ticket items in the set up, so it makes sense for the chairman to be involved. As Toadhall said, who in their right mind would unleash Harry in this area without any oversight?

 

I still take your point though, and agree with it. Cortese's role should be to maintain financial balance - not interfere in the playing side of things.

 

I think - and hope - he's smart enough not to get too involved there, and I think he might have internalized quite a few lessons in the past six weeks.

[buctootim]

Taking someone on loan is both a football decision and finance decision. If the club were serious about getting something sorted quickly, it makes sense for both to be there. Is it too much to believe that Adkins and Cortese both know that each has a different role and that each has a part to play?

[CanadaSaint]

Here we go again. Agenda , agenda , nudge , wink.

 

FFS, what exactly did he say that was "nudge, wink"?

 

Taking someone on loan is both a football decision and finance decision. If the club were serious about getting something sorted quickly, it makes sense for both to be there. Is it too much to believe that Adkins and Cortese both know that each has a different role and that each has a part to play?

 

Exactly. And they're both smart enough to understand that equation and not have a problem with it. Also, Adkins seems like the "participative" kind who would value Reed's input on this stuff rather than resent it.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I think the question should be : "Do we need extra players?". If the answer is no, then don't expect us to spend money and don't think that that, in itself, means we're skint.

[martyg1950]

Does the OP really think that Adkins would have signed up with us if we were skint?

[CanadaSaint]

Does the OP really think that Adkins would have signed up with us if we were skint?

 

Good point. I'll bet that Cortese had to "sell" us to Adkins as much as Adkins had to "sell" himself to Cortese, and I don't think Cortese would have bullsh*tted him about our finances.

[Joensuu]

I think the 'tied up in his estate' thing is a red herring. The money dried up before Markus passed on. We spent a hell of a lot the Summer before last to lure Lambert and the rest and also a lot more to get Fonte and Barnard in the January window. However, things were very different in the Summer where we only signed 3 full backs, 2 of whom were out of contract.

 

The real question is whether this lack of cash in flow is due to a decision made by Markus (and now his family) or if it is Cortese being pig headed in wanting to accomplish his goals using only money the club itself produces and not having to go, cap in hand, to the Liebherr's asking for a hand out.

 

I think this 'the money dried up before Markus passed on' thing is a red herring. We spent a hell of a lot of the Summer before last to lure Lambert and the rest, and then spent some of the following summer's budget early to get Fonte and Barnard in the Janurary window. Despite this we continued spending more than anyone else in the league the following summer, spending almost 3/4 millon on 3 fullbacks.

 

The real question is whether this generous cash flow is going to continue without Markus (let's hope his family continue to fund our progress). If not, will Cortese continue being level headed in wanting to accomplish our shared goals, whether he starts using only money the club itself produces, or whether he will need to go, business case in hand, to the Leibherr's to ask for further investment.

 

Point is, in the last transfer window we outspent everyone else in the league, so why people think the money has dried up baffles me.

 

How do you think a fan of any other team in League 1 would react if they spent 1/2 million pounds on a fullback? I doubt you'd find any of them using it as evidence to demonstrate how 'skint' they are.

[trousers]

No Chairman should take a footballing decision.

Finance, personnel in fact everything but football decisions.

 

Even 'exceptions to rule' like ex-player Niall Quinn?