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West Brom 2 Saints 0 - The Wake


St Chalet

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just back have to say that we are just not premiership.

we try our best but its not good enough for this league

the confidence has gone from all the players,we need to get the players down the gym cos they all get knocked off the ball too easily.

to the morons who boo our players,give it a rest,youre there to support remember.

apart from that a good away day,well done griffo drinking till we got you home,

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First of all well done the supporters that were there - you did us proud.

 

Thats about it really we were crap. We cannot pass or tackle at the moment.

 

I had to agree with Gary Neville's summary at the end but it is pointless (literally) to single out players who were poor tonight. We lost as a team.

 

I do not want to give my view whether Nigel will be with us tommorrow but we need to beat Swansea and then QPR. I see QPR as being the watershed.

 

 

COYR

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Ever the optimist I saw signs of improvement last night with the back 4 starting to play as a unit, i have said all along it is the lack of a defensive solid midfield player which is our problem.

how many times did we see AL busting a gut to get back last nighr only to arrive after the damage was done, although he did try to get there, on the other side Clyne was on his own all night.

deflected goal, hit the bar, these 2 events were pivotal si i for one ain't giving up yet

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Think I now see the problem.

 

We have an old fashioned Two up front squad. The "Centre Forward" - Think Ron Davies/Frank Worthington and the "2nd striker" think Mick Channon

 

The PROBLEM is that we only have ONE "CF" in the squad - Rickie, but seem to have FIVE "2nd Strikers" - or the modern term would be Number 10's.

 

Lallana, Guly, Mayuka, Rodriguez, Ramirez. All "creative" Inside forward types

 

So then when we want to line up on the pitch and play football we may be lining up in a derivative of 4-3-3 with quality flair attacking players but they AIN'T the players for that formation.

 

Somebody has bought the wrong players for the system we need to play.

 

I bet the African Player of the Year Nominee is not a "right winger" for his National Side

 

Wrong players in wrong positions.

 

We're screwed. By 1st Jan we will be lucky to have 5 points

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For what is worth this is my view -

 

We are far too lightweight in midfield

Gaston is nowhere near fit

When he is he should not play wide but down the middle

Morgan and Davis can only pass sideways or backwards

Ricky looks like he has lost interest

We have no cutting edge

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Which of our Adkins era signings over the last 2 years has been good, solid and claimed a regular place in the team by right

Cork? (Probably the one who staked the best claim to a place before injury but again bought young to develop)

De Ridder? (wasnt good enough for the championship)

Hoievelld? (Good in the championship out of his depth in the premiership bought as a last resort to replace an ageing Jaidi)

Fox? (Bought for promotion but seems out of his depth)

Lee? (Will he ever play)

Sharp ? (probably suited the need at the time but not bought with the future in mind)

Rodriques? (young, has potential yet to fully develop and good for the future)

Davis? (Seems to have lost it in the Scottish league)

Clyne? (The best of this years bunch so far but also young and developing)

Mayuka? (Again young with potential and needs time to develop not what is needed now in a relagation battle)

Yoshida ? (Could turn out good but still learning how to play in the premiership)

Ramierez? (Very skillful, Still to early to tell given his injury but again young and needs learning time)

 

12 players here! How many of them deserve a permenant place in the team? probably 3 at best. Norwichs championship purchases seem to have adapted far better to the premiership last year than ours Why? was it because their policy was a mix of young and seasoned players?

 

Despite all our spend our three most consistent players are still there from league 1 Lallana, Schniederlin, Lambert

 

1) Our real problem is we dont have the players to play the system we want not just in defence but across the park

2) Our signings either are not good enough or do not fit into our style of play or have been bought with raw potential that needs time to pay dividends, time we dont have!

3) We have no real experienced seasoned leaders on the pitch in the Ball Case mould to provide the bite and motivation when heads are down.

4) We play pretty football in a lightweight style when some brute strength and determination is required (we had no bookings yesterday)

 

In fact our youth team players like Ward Prowse, Luke Shaw, Ben Reeves etc often look better than our expensive signings this is particulalry worrying!

 

It is worth remembering that the Pardew signings seemed to have been bought to do a job and did it well almost from day 1

Hammond

Harding

Fonte

Jaidi

Lambert

 

They may have been in league 1 but they all slotted into the team and system almost immediately and did a great job! and in fact formed the basis of our double promotion! We are not yet able to say this about any of the subsequent buys

 

OK RANT OVER

Edited by Saint Without a Halo
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Ever the optimist I saw signs of improvement last night with the back 4 starting to play as a unit' date='[/color'] i have said all along it is the lack of a defensive solid midfield player which is our problem.

how many times did we see AL busting a gut to get back last nighr only to arrive after the damage was done, although he did try to get there, on the other side Clyne was on his own all night.

deflected goal, hit the bar, these 2 events were pivotal si i for one ain't giving up yet

 

Interesting whispering Dave on solent seemed to think that Jose and Yoshida were awful together and not covering or communicating with each other all night. He did say though that the rest of the team are giving the defence no help at all.

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For what is worth this is my view -

 

We are far too lightweight in midfield

Gaston is nowhere near fit

When he is he should not play wide but down the middle

Morgan and Davis can only pass sideways or backwards

Ricky looks like he has lost interest

We have no cutting edge

 

I don't think that could be labelled at rickie last night. He had quite a few attempts.

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There's always too big a gap between our back 4 and the attacking 4. When we play it out from the back our defence struggle to reach the attackers as they are so far up the field.When we loose possession in midfield the attacking 4 are too far forward to help out and the defending 4 too far back and this allows the opposition to run at us putting us constantly under the cosh. We need to play with a tighter formation in the middle of the park and stop capitulating that space to the opposition. If we had run at the West Brom back 4 all night like they did at our back 4 they would also look rather ordinary. For the next game I would keep the same team although Ramirez to play in the middle and have some one else on the right who can track back. Formation needs to change in any case. Let's hope Adkins is still around, we're lucky to have him.

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There's always too big a gap between our back 4 and the attacking 4. When we play it out from the back our defence struggle to reach the attackers as they are so far up the field.When we loose possession in midfield the attacking 4 are too far forward to help out and the defending 4 too far back and this allows the opposition to run at us putting us constantly under the cosh. We need to play with a tighter formation in the middle of the park and stop capitulating that space to the opposition. If we had run at the West Brom back 4 all night like they did at our back 4 they would also look rather ordinary. For the next game I would keep the same team although Ramirez to play in the middle and have some one else on the right who can track back. Formation needs to change in any case. Let's hope Adkins is still around, we're lucky to have him.

 

'One' of the problems last night was West Brom sat very deep, 2 lines of 4 if you will. We don't have the pace out wide or the invention through the middle to unpick this system. We had loads of the ball second half but it was all sideways and backwards stuff, when we did come forward we were either knocked off it too easily, our passing was very poor and our ball retention when recieving in tight areas was poor. If that's the case we must do much better from set pieces, there were one or two really dangerous corners (one where Yoshi went close), most of them were utter gash, either too short or more commonly over hit and too high. Foster never looked comfortable but we didn't get any pressure on him all night. We need to attack, and particularly counter-attack, much more quickly, for me Lallana needs to move into the middle asap, it's JRod or Lambert, not both (has this pairing ever worked?).

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I can't be bothered to read through this post, I think I can guess what's been said. However things could have been very different if:

a) Ricky hadn't hit the bar.

b) We'd got the penalty we should have.

c) Lucky deflection didn't take first goal past Gazza.

 

and here's the rub:

 

d) If the ref had HEARD the lino tell him there was a handball in the build-up for the first goal, yes, according to the report in The Mirror, the ref didn't hear him. What ever happened to waving his effin' flag, or speaking to him after the goal had been scored. :x

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Myuka looked like a poor man's Antonio when he came on; clumsy, headless and no end product. Granted it was for only 20 mins, out of position, in a losing and demoralised team but compare that to how Lallana came on in similar circumstances last time we were there, he grabbed that game and scored a wonder goal, different gravy.

 

Myuka is another odd-ball signing who is not going to get many starts in his prefered position, not sure we should base our whole recovery strategy around him. Maybe we should have bought specialist wide midfielders rather than a complete set of strikers/attacking mids. We haven't been able to effectively combine JRod and RL into the same starting line up, looks also like we would be better (certainly away from home) with one or other of AL or GR at number 10 but not necessarily both (I posted this after the Everton game).

 

Oh for a CMFG! Or a Jarvis? Should we change shape but that's difficult with the current personnel. Gully at RM a possibility?

 

Shaw looked decent when he came on, prob ought to get JWP back in there some where too.

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It's confidence, I thought we started brightly, knocked the ball around fairly well and were the better team for first 30 mins or so without playing that well. Gaston clearly was a bit rusty and I'm not sure he looked comfortable playing wide but again could have been the sharpness. The back four looked ok, Yoshida was covering well they were winning headers and their battles. We gave the ball away a few times and West Brom counter attacked well but it looked like we were dealing with it.

 

Then the goal happened, with a blatant (cheating) handball in the build up and then a deflection to boot. After that they lost all confidence.

 

What was also clear is that we need a Mulumbu type player, both our central midfielders are too attacking, they both go forward at the same time leaving the defence exposed, they are also too small. Need to let Morgan (who probably had his worst game of the season last night) keep doing what he has been doing (closing people down, working hard, making interceptions high up the pitch) and get someone in next to him with a bit of strength and power who will just concentrate on defending.

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As has been said many times on here the magic ingredient is confidence.

 

A few wins under the belt and this team would be unrecognisable.

 

Unfortunately the lapses from a defence that has had a baptism of fire started the rot and now it's spread to the rest of the team.

 

It also doesn't help that we left our best GK off the team sheet. We need as much defensive ability as possible and to drop our international keeper at the moment seems strange.

 

Sorry MS fans but I don't rate him, never really have. He's being shown up rather badly at this level now. We need a centre mid with some real steel and we just don't have it at the moment.

 

Whilst the team go out and show some heart them I'm OK with things, it's when heads drop that you need to get concerned and there is growing evidence that heads are dropping.

 

Nige, you have to stop the rot ASAP or it's going to be another 04/05 season all over again.

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It's confidence, I thought we started brightly, knocked the ball around fairly well and were the better team for first 30 mins or so without playing that well. Gaston clearly was a bit rusty and I'm not sure he looked comfortable playing wide but again could have been the sharpness. The back four looked ok, Yoshida was covering well they were winning headers and their battles. We gave the ball away a few times and West Brom counter attacked well but it looked like we were dealing with it.

 

Then the goal happened, with a blatant (cheating) handball in the build up and then a deflection to boot. After that they lost all confidence.

 

What was also clear is that we need a Mulumbu type player, both our central midfielders are too attacking, they both go forward at the same time leaving the defence exposed, they are also too small. Need to let Morgan (who probably had his worst game of the season last night) keep doing what he has been doing (closing people down, working hard, making interceptions high up the pitch) and get someone in next to him with a bit of strength and power who will just concentrate on defending.

Our centre midfielders are too attacking? You sure about that?
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Oh dear! Let's face it it our players (yes all of them) are just not good enough for the premier league. Easy to blame the manager but it is up to somebody on the pitch to take control and try and improve. I am afraid we are becoming a laughing stock and that is really hard to take. Even the West Brom manager said his team didn't play well but still far too good for our bunch.

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I don't think any of our back four a Prem quality. Clyne is raw and has potential but is too inexperienced at this level, Yoshida's positional sense is awful, and Fonte seems more error prone than ever without a solid CB next to him. And dont get me started on Fox, I've lost count of how many goals we have conceded due to his woeful defending...

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Get Chaplow out there with the captains armband. We have a lot of good players lacking confidence and underperforming. We need a leader on the pitch. I think Chaplow has the qualities required. Not the best technically, but Morgan needs some time on the bench to develop some balls to go with his technical ability.

 

Urm no. When has he displayed as single "captain attribute"?!?! Is the captain supposed to be charging round the pitch hopelessly following the game? Is he supposed to be making bad tackles that with better ref look like reds for intent to stamp someone?

 

The list goes on, Chaplow is a L1 player, everyone knows it, especially Chaplow. He will never be captain because he won't do anything sensible.

 

Clyne is raw and has potential but is too inexperienced at this level

 

Got to question this, how is Clyne ever going to get the experience if we don't play him??

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Our centre midfielders are too attacking? You sure about that?

 

Yes, note about 20 minutes in when Gastron cut inside in our own half and for some reason decided to take on two players, Davis and Schneiderlin were already 10 yards ahead of him, the whole team floods forward leaving usually one full back and the centre backs. There is a reason Morgan has won a high number of interceptions in the opposition half. We need a sitting, disciplined, defensive minded centre mid. Can Cork do it?

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Yes, note about 20 minutes in when Gastron cut inside in our own half and for some reason decided to take on two players, Davis and Schneiderlin were already 10 yards ahead of him, the whole team floods forward leaving usually one full back and the centre backs. There is a reason Morgan has won a high number of interceptions in the opposition half. We need a sitting, disciplined, defensive minded centre mid. Can Cork do it?

 

Our CMs getting forward is the least of our problems. Indeed I wish it was more of a problem.

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bang on, dont think changing the manager would make a difference, we are a good championship team that didn't strengthen in the right areas or add prem experience when we got promoted (where would we sit if there was a table of "premier league hours of experience" - pretty much where we are in the actual league i would hasten to guess). On top of this our players are just not performing - cant see us winning a game.

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We played a lot like we did last season, lots of possesion around the half way line but little impact in the final third because teams in this division are a step too far.

Its all very well knocking 20 passes together across the back four and centre midfield only then to have to go back again as the opposition are far too organised for us to penetrate their lines.

I am sure we do look good in training as we are playing against our own midfield and defence who have been proved to be not up to the job.

I am undecided if getting rid of Nige is the answer as like others i still dont get how much control he has anyway. We will find it hard to attract players in january to improve things as it could be all over by then anyway so what manager of experience is going to want to take that on.

I think we are also a bit over hyped regarding our attacking play as lets face it we never created a lot for a team that was set up with such attacking players so its back to the drawing board as this Southampton way whatever that is is clearly the wrong way.

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We would not do any worse under a new manager. Nigel is a nice man but there is too much wrong with so many things on the pitch to leave the manager the same.......I would hate Redknapp to be here but right now I'd take him! The organisation of the team is NA's resonsibility and it's frankly dire!

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Clyne is raw and has potential but is too inexperienced at this level.

 

Clyne made some brilliantly times tackles and for me was our best defender.

 

The main trouble with our defence is that as a group (and this includes our midfielders in defensive positions) they were far too slow to react. Hansen has disparagingly remarked of them "I didn't know football was a non-contact game!". And he is correct on this one. Too slow to react. Too timid to block and tackle. Always back-tracking and allowing attackers though. And this was not uncommon for much of last season. But they are not always like this. Against ManC in the first game for much of the time they were well up to the job. So why are they so inconsistent? Why do we not have a specialist top defensive coach to instil basic defending into the team?

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Enjoyed the game. I thought the result could easily have gone either way. They were lucky to get away with the handball in the build-up to their first goal. Rickie's half volley off the bar was class and would have been a brilliant goal if it had gone in. He held the ball up well too, well done to Nigel for keeping him on the pitch the full 90. I agree that Gaston looked a bit rusty. Good support for the team and Nigel. I thought it was a positive atmosphere, despite the defeat. Onwards and upwards. These next few home games against the lower Premier league teams are going to be crucial.

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Clyne made some brilliantly times tackles and for me was our best defender.

 

The main trouble with our defence is that as a group (and this includes our midfielders in defensive positions) they were far too slow to react. Hansen has disparagingly remarked of them "I didn't know football was a non-contact game!". And he is correct on this one. Too slow to react. Too timid to block and tackle. Always back-tracking and allowing attackers though. And this was not uncommon for much of last season. But they are not always like this. Against ManC in the first game for much of the time they were well up to the job. So why are they so inconsistent? Why do we not have a specialist top defensive coach to instil basic defending into the team?

 

That is what we need a defensive coach, an experienced leader on the pitch, a couple of new defenders in January and some confidence! better than a new manager!

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That is what we need a defensive coach, an experienced leader on the pitch, a couple of new defenders in January and some confidence! better than a new manager!

 

Quite agree. Nigel needs support, not hounding out. No-one has come up with a better alternative replacement. Everyone needs to remember that he is not manager - he is chief coach and he can only work with the material that Les Reed (who I don't rate and few have criticised) has given him. Your diagnosis is spot on.

 

I hope Reed will support Nigel by giving him the above because a new head coach would have to work with the same core weaknesses that we now have.

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It looks like the penny is beginning to drop. We need to shore up the defence. Lallana, Ramirez don't defend properly, Schneiderlin and Davis don't tackle and don't cover the defenders, Fox is a poor defender made worse by continually pushing forward. IMO, firstly the back four should concentrate on defending and the full backs should avoid getting pulled out of position and if one does support the attack the other should stay back. Unlike the second goal yesterday both full backs were forward. Secondly put in a defender in front of the back four to cover any gaps. The other five players need to pressurise the ball which we don't do. My view is Gazzaniga in goal, Clyne, Fonte, Hooiveld and Fox as a back four. Yoshida as the extra defender. The midfield pair Ramirez and Lallana with three strikers, Mayuka, Lambert and Rodriguez. I will say I found it difficult to choose between Fonte and Yoshida as the extra defender and just went for Fonte and Hooiveld as a partners due to the number of games they have played together.

 

I think Schneiderlin and Davis are negative players, poor defensively, we could do without them. The addition of a proper defender in front of the back four should tighten things defensively and allow the talented playmakers the freedom to link with the three strikers.

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It looks like the penny is beginning to drop. We need to shore up the defence. Lallana, Ramirez don't defend properly, Schneiderlin and Davis don't tackle and don't cover the defenders, Fox is a poor defender made worse by continually pushing forward. IMO, firstly the back four should concentrate on defending and the full backs should avoid getting pulled out of position and if one does support the attack the other should stay back. Unlike the second goal yesterday both full backs were forward. Secondly put in a defender in front of the back four to cover any gaps. The other five players need to pressurise the ball which we don't do. My view is Gazzaniga in goal, Clyne, Fonte, Hooiveld and Fox as a back four. Yoshida as the extra defender. The midfield pair Ramirez and Lallana with three strikers, Mayuka, Lambert and Rodriguez. I will say I found it difficult to choose between Fonte and Yoshida as the extra defender and just went for Fonte and Hooiveld as a partners due to the number of games they have played together.

 

I think Schneiderlin and Davis are negative players, poor defensively, we could do without them. The addition of a proper defender in front of the back four should tighten things defensively and allow the talented playmakers the freedom to link with the three strikers.

 

So your midfield two would be Lallana and Ramirez, with three strikers/attackers ahead of them and you think this would help us concede less goals?

 

Interesting idea, but IMO that would end up as a 5-5 formation where Yoshida would drop into the defence and Lallan and Ramirez would offer nothing defensively as well as restrict them from doing damage near to the opposition box.

 

IMO Ramirez needs to play off one main frontman, either JR or RL.

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So your midfield two would be Lallana and Ramirez, with three strikers/attackers ahead of them and you think this would help us concede less goals?

 

Interesting idea, but IMO that would end up as a 5-5 formation where Yoshida would drop into the defence and Lallan and Ramirez would offer nothing defensively as well as restrict them from doing damage near to the opposition box.

 

IMO Ramirez needs to play off one main frontman, either JR or RL.

 

You can always come up with reasons why things won't work. I'd be interested to know if your football background is playing, managing, coaching or all three and what level, or have you just watched a bit of football.

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You can always come up with reasons why things won't work. I'd be interested to know if your football background is playing, managing, coaching or all three and what level, or have you just watched a bit of football.

 

Played at a poor level, coached at a poor level and watched football at all levels.

 

Our defensive errors are individual - putting 5 at the back won't IMO make a difference. Very few teams play like that. You say Morgan and Davis don't defend so we dont need them - they will be better defensively than Ramirez and Lallana.

 

Ramirez needs to play just off the striker like vs Villa. A structured 4-2-3-1 would work well.

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We definitely needed to move the ball quicker through midfield. We won it in decent positions but then any momentum was easily lost because we slowed play down by which time they had two banks of 4 inbetween the ball and their goal.

 

It's all well and good having Ramirez but we need to create space for him to receive the ball in so he can dictate the game. Last night (well in the second half that the traffic allowed me to watch) it seemed that we were mostly playing the ball into him when he was already marked and however good he is he won't be able to wriggle away from 1 or 2 players every time.

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Played at a poor level, coached at a poor level and watched football at all levels.

 

Our defensive errors are individual - putting 5 at the back won't IMO make a difference. Very few teams play like that. You say Morgan and Davis don't defend so we dont need them - they will be better defensively than Ramirez and Lallana.

 

Ramirez needs to play just off the striker like vs Villa. A structured 4-2-3-1 would work well.

 

You obviously don't understand what a front sweeper does. It's not 5 at the back. It's a defender in front of the back four that is the first to the point of attack right across the field not in front of the centre backs.

 

Ramirez and Lallana don't defend at the moment, for that matter neither do Schneiderlin and Davis. Apart from them pressing the ball the extra defender covers their defensive duties, leaving them relatively free to join the attack.

Edited by derry
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The majority of the fans are still behind him, Nigel is backing himself, just on here most want him gone.

 

 

 

I'm with you on this one Dr Who.

 

I say we stick with NA and see this season through. I always maintained that last season would have been better had it been about consolidation and allowing to strengthen the team. I am sure that the board were as surprised as anyone about our promotion and have a plan in place to yoyo back up sholud we get relelgated. I saw this way before anyone else and threfore remain calm as usual.

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I'm with you on this one Dr Who.

 

I say we stick with NA and see this season through. I always maintained that last season would have been better had it been about consolidation and allowing to strengthen the team. I am sure that the board were as surprised as anyone about our promotion and have a plan in place to yoyo back up sholud we get relelgated. I saw this way before anyone else and threfore remain calm as usual.

 

Pretty impressive seeing as you're a dalek. FWIW I don't think the board were surprised at all. And the purpose of spending all that dough in the Summer was surely not to prepare for immediate relegation. I don't get that talk about "consolidating" in the NPC - it seems to me there are loads of ex-prem teams who have spent decades doing that.

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Pretty impressive seeing as you're a dalek. FWIW I don't think the board were surprised at all. And the purpose of spending all that dough in the Summer was surely not to prepare for immediate relegation. I don't get that talk about "consolidating" in the NPC - it seems to me there are loads of ex-prem teams who have spent decades doing that.

 

Most of our big money signiongs are good investments. Ramirez will easily be sold on and even if we lose 3 or 4 million he was worth a gamble.

 

I think our brilliant start last seaon took everyone by surprise and we had planned a season of consolidation and building but we could not turn down a golden opportunity of PL football which came to us so easily !

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I always maintained that last season would have been better had it been about consolidation and allowing to strengthen the team.

total and utter drivel.

 

Look at the number of teams that have gone up from league 1 into the Championship and `consolidated'. Brighton, Barnsley, Leeds, Cardiff, Forest, Bristol City, Watford, Millwall, Peterborough. Consolidation can quickly become stagnation.

 

Oh and your yoyo idea also sucks as Burnley, Brum, Hull, Derby, Ipswich, Palace, Middlesbrough and Blackpool fans will tell you.

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Great to see the majority of Saints fans are still backing Adkins. I think he has 4 games to save his skin.

 

Come on Saints!

 

The majority of the fans are still behind him, Nigel is backing himself, just on here most want him gone.

 

who are the majority...? can you name them..?

 

You rewind sky sports to the final whistle, and you will see the level of support he is getting from the hardcore southampton away following. At games I have been to this season, I have not heard anyone say he should go. I have heard supports say they fear for him because of the nature of football.

 

As far as I am concerned we have a great chance over the next 4 games to give us a fighting chance, if this fails I will fear for him, but not yet!

 

COYR!

 

Oh and add the standing ovation for him today..... That is the fans who go to games backing....see you at QPR next week Mr Adkins.

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