Hedgehog Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I doubt the management at SFC are anywhere near as obsesed with this player, can you imagine manager and chairman checking every minute to see if there has been a development? Do we really know that they are that interested in this guy? If it wasn't for this forum would there still be a story? oh for the days of no internet forums, twitter, facebook and whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 If he is that good, he'll score a shed load with the amount of chances we create. That will hardly harm his World Cup chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Well why not, people are claim Ramiez didn't really say what he did, that was down to translation. Players want ideally champions league football, trophies and money. If they can't have all three then its champions league and money. If they can't have both of them then its money. Now you tell me, how many of those 3 can we offer? We can be a means to an end - guarantee him first team football where he can develop and perhaps put himself in the window for another move down the road. Very appealing for younger players. By contrast, there are plenty of players who've gone to bigger clubs and achieved f**k all, languishing on the bench or in the reserves which has ultimately hurt their earning potential and chances of winning honours. In the job world, would you move somewhere where you were a small fish in a large pond and risked being overlooked or go somewhere perhaps smaller but where you enjoyed responsibility and gained visibility -all of which can help your progression inside or outside the company. Far from clear-cut IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysaint17 Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Just sort of want to know whether to get Osvaldo on the back of my shirt or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Dont see anyone claiming a "quote" was made up- only you. I question its accuracy not its provenance. You offer one and only one alternate explanation for the " lost in translation" quote- that it was made up - or true "FACT". There are others, you know it, i know it. I could interpret Uruguyan/Spanish into Italian and then to English up to a point - but its human to take the easiest option two or three people down the line and end up with " they gave me so much money i had to accept". Yours suits your argument, other explanations might not. The weakest part in your argument is your dependence upon third hand information. I cannot totally refute you- but neither can you insist that your opinion is " FACT. Incidentally, have you ever heard that mercenary phrase " quoted" from any other footballer? Most of them accept the £££ is important but don't go the whole hog and say its everything. Makes GR a very exceptional- and interesting man if true. Like I said, the translators in EVERY newspaper must be wrong and you must be right. He said something else which all the translators in the entire western world mistook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 My housemate showed me a quote supposedly from Osvaldo saying that he'd only be interested in a move to Spurs or Inter at this point - i've been at work since midday and can't be arsed to read through this thread to find out whether it's been covered already or not, so can someone help me out here!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 If he is that good, he'll score a shed load with the amount of chances we create. That will hardly harm his World Cup chances. That had occurred to me as well. A decent showing of goals in the EPL would go a long way in the World Cup squad stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 We can be a means to an end - guarantee him first team football where he can develop and perhaps put himself in the window for another move down the road. Very appealing for younger players. By contrast, there are plenty of players who've gone to bigger clubs and achieved f**k all, languishing on the bench or in the reserves which has ultimately hurt their earning potential and chances of winning honours. In the job world, would you move somewhere where you were a small fish in a large pond and risked being overlooked or go somewhere perhaps smaller but where you enjoyed responsibility and gained visibility -all of which can help your progression inside or outside the company. Far from clear-cut IMO. So he's here for the money OR he's here because he wants to use us as a stepping stone to better things, Either way he ain't here because he always dreamt of playing for Sputhampton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 My housemate showed me a quote supposedly from Osvaldo saying that he'd only be interested in a move to Spurs or Inter at this point - i've been at work since midday and can't be arsed to read through this thread to find out whether it's been covered already or not, so can someone help me out here!? But you are Scottish, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 My housemate showed me a quote supposedly from Osvaldo saying that he'd only be interested in a move to Spurs or Inter at this point - i've been at work since midday and can't be arsed to read through this thread to find out whether it's been covered already or not, so can someone help me out here!? http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//m.fcinternews.it/news/pedulla-osvaldo-mega-offerta-dei-saints-adesso-124191 latest turn in all stories... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 If he is that good, he'll score a shed load with the amount of chances we create. That will hardly harm his World Cup chances. He should do, one thing we were missing last season (apart from two good centre halves) was a clinical striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//m.fcinternews.it/news/pedulla-osvaldo-mega-offerta-dei-saints-adesso-124191 latest turn in all stories... If I was Italian I'd prefer Inter too. Its like an English player being given the choice of Liverpool or Sampdoria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 So he's here for the money OR he's here because he wants to use us as a stepping stone to better things, Either way he ain't here because he always dreamt of playing for Sputhampton. Cause that is what anyone has ever claimed here?? Almost, but almost granted a facepalm but not there yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Well why not, people are claim Ramiez didn't really say what he did, that was down to translation. Players want ideally champions league football, trophies and money. If they can't have all three then its champions league and money. If they can't have both of them then its money. Now you tell me, how many of those 3 can we offer? On that basis, we can offer the same CL experience as Spurs this year. Spurs aren't going to win the league, neither are we, they've got a much better chance of qualifying for it next year and winning a trophy this year, yet we're probably not too far away from a League Cup or FA Cup win in the near future. We may also offer more money. Serious question; which would you choose? If you are definitely not getting CL football, have as much chance of winning a trophy in the next couple of years at either club, probably getting more money at Saints (I know, can't substantiate that claim, but that's what it sounds like). I don't think it's as clear cut as it sounds. There's also the fact that one of those teams have just spent £25mil on a player that plays in your exact pace. Personally, think we can offer him 2/3. Agree with you about Ramirez, although I think the point being made is that it was also reported that we were building a team around him which MAY be attractive to some players. That blatantly didn't happen. Can't see that line being spun to Osvaldo either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 (edited) Sorry, double post! Edited 16 August, 2013 by Latheal Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Cause that is what anyone has ever claimed here?? Almost, but almost granted a facepalm but not there yet... But you all go on about 'the project' the chairmans ambition, the wonderful place Southampton is to live in. Here's news, top players can go to club that don't need 'a project' to make Europe, they are in it every season and if not, very close to it. These clubs are all great cities, not a small city with no redeeming features. Believe it or not, players aren't fighting each other to be lucky enough to join Sputhampton. Ad before anyone claims I'm having a go at the club I think its a fantastic place we are in and that we are outside of the top 5 or 6 clubs in England, thes best place for a player to be . But the reality is we are competing with the clubs just outside the top 4 In top European leagues for the same players so we have to offer them something to come here.weve come a long way in ashort time and have never been one of 'names' in football, so its no surprise foreign players are thinking twice before signing on the dotted line. This the reality folks, not what you want to hear but how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Ad before anyone claims I'm having a go at the club I think its a fantastic place we are in and that we are outside of the top 5 or 6 clubs in England, thes best place for a player to be . But the reality is we are competing with the clubs just outside the top 4 In top European leagues for the same players so we have to offer them something to come here.weve come a long way in ashort time and have never been one of 'names' in football, so its no surprise foreign players are thinking twice before signing on the dotted line. This the reality folks, not what you want to hear but how it is. Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 (edited) On that basis, we can offer the same CL experience as Spurs this year. Spurs aren't going to win the league, neither are we, they've got a much better chance of qualifying for it next year and winning a trophy this year, yet we're probably not too far away from a League Cup or FA Cup win in the near future. We may also offer more money. Serious question; which would you choose? If you are definitely not getting CL football, have as much chance of winning a trophy in the next couple of years at either club, probably getting more money at Saints (I know, can't substantiate that claim, but that's what it sounds like). I don't think it's as clear cut as it sounds. There's also the fact that one of those teams have just spent £25mil on a player that plays in your exact pace. Personally, think we can offer him 2/3. Agree with you about Ramirez, although I think the point being made is that it was also reported that we were building a team around him which MAY be attractive to some players. That blatantly didn't happen. Can't see that line being spun to Osvaldo either. Given that Spurs have made the champions league recently, have challenged for it for the last 3 years and finished in the top 5 for the last 4 seasons and are highly likely to be in the top 5 again this season, as an arrogant Italian striker, which most of them are, I'd think I'd be the man to fire them into the champions league. Can Saints offer that? Or just some vague promise that if this this and that happens, we might one day rival spurs for 4th spot, plus i can live in London rather than Southamp,err where? then its a no brainer. Edited 16 August, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 But you all go on about 'the project' the chairmans ambition, the wonderful place Southampton is to live in. Here's news, top players can go to club that don't need 'a project' to make Europe, they are in it every season and if not, very close to it. These clubs are all great cities, not a small city with no redeeming features. Believe it or not, players aren't fighting each other to be lucky enough to join Sputhampton. Ad before anyone claims I'm having a go at the club I think its a fantastic place we are in and that we are outside of the top 5 or 6 clubs in England, thes best place for a player to be . But the reality is we are competing with the clubs just outside the top 4 In top European leagues for the same players so we have to offer them something to come here.weve come a long way in ashort time and have never been one of 'names' in football, so its no surprise foreign players are thinking twice before signing on the dotted line. This the reality folks, not what you want to hear but how it is. I think I have to quote a great poster from this forum now....quote is fresh, about 50 mins old only... Err, it was a question numbnuts, not quoting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I think I have to quote a great poster from this forum now....quote is fresh, about 50 mins old only... What on earth are you going on about now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Given that Spurs have made the champions league recently, have challenged for it for the last 3 years and finished in the top 5 for the last 4 seasons and are highly likely to be in the top 5 again, as an arrogant Italian striker, which most of them are, I'd think I'd be the man to fire them into the champions league. Can Saints offer that? Or just some vague promise that if this the and that happens, we might one day rival spurs for 4th spot? To be fair Turkish, that's my point. Will Spurs finish top 4? We won't, I don't think they will either. Yes, they'll probably be closer than us, but does that really matter? As it stands right now, they've a much better chance over the next few years of qualifying for it, but if they did, would he be an integral part of it? Especially with Soldado there. It's World Cup year. If he gets 15 goals in the Prem, he'll be in the squad. I honestly don't know what I would do if I was him. Like I said, don't think it's clear cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 What on earth are you going on about now? You really have to follow the discussion mate... I asked you if anyone here has ever claimed that players come here because they always dreamt of playing for Southampton? Simple question... You can see question and your answer in post #1586. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Well for what it's worth, and it's probably not worth much, according to skybet we are still 5/6 faves with Spurs 7/4...though we are also still 5/6 to sign Banega... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 You really have to follow the discussion mate... I asked you if anyone here has ever claimed that players come here because they always dreamt of playing for Southampton? Simple question... You can see question and your answer in post #1586. I think its another case of lost in translation, just like Ramirez money quotes, I've answered your point, you all bang on about the project, the dream the ambition etc, the reality is top players can get hat immediately from clubs we are competing with for the same players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 To be fair Turkish, that's my point. Will Spurs finish top 4? We won't, I don't think they will either. Yes, they'll probably be closer than us, but does that really matter? As it stands right now, they've a much better chance over the next few years of qualifying for it, but if they did, would he be an integral part of it? Especially with Soldado there. It's World Cup year. If he gets 15 goals in the Prem, he'll be in the squad. I honestly don't know what I would do if I was him. Like I said, don't think it's clear cut. Well I think they will. They've got a good squad and a very good manager, they've signed a striker they were misssing last season. They won't win the league but they'll finish 4th. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I've been on holiday for a fortnight and seemingly missed nothing transfer wise. I've read back a couple of pages and must agree with Turks. I think people don't understand who or what we are or aren't. We can't offer players anything but money. Nothing. Cash is our only drawer. Because of that we'll only attract players who are chasing the dollar, or want exposure they won't get elsewhere. We are therefore exposed to agents and mercenaries. Players who join us over the big boys will be coming for the money. NC job will be to sift the greedy from the committed. Our lack of signings could be because the mentality of players is a concern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I think its another case of lost in translation, just like Ramirez money quotes, I've answered your point, you all bang on about the project, the dream the ambition etc, the reality is top players can get hat immediately from clubs we are competing with for the same players. So basically, no answer to the question and your making up things for effect in your posts... Good to know. G´night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 So basically, no answer to the question and your making up things for effect in your posts... Good to know. G´night. So why do players join us over clubs offering European football and/or competition for a decent league placing if its not money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 Well I think they will. They've got a good squad and a very good manager, they've signed a striker they were misssing last season. They won't win the league but they'll finish 4th. IMO. Fair enough, agree to disagree. I would love another team to finish in the top 4 rather than the usual lot but just can't see who they will displace at the moment. Depends on Bale in m view. If they keep him, they'll make it. If they don't, they won't. I just can't see them spending what they've spent and not cashing in. Agree that they have a very good squad and manager though. Can also see them letting a striker go which will leave them in the same situation they were last season. Which goes back to the point, would Osvaldo play second fiddle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I've been on holiday for a fortnight and seemingly missed nothing transfer wise. I've been sending you loads of PMs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 August, 2013 Share Posted 16 August, 2013 I've been sending you loads of PMs... My PM box is full petal, wave at me and I'll reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timayes Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 There are more great players than there are great clubs, and as a top striker, if I could not get into a champions league club, I would HAVE to look at my options. In a world cup year, this HAS to be where I can play the most high profile games and make the most impact. And if that is an ambitious club on the up who is going to reward me handsomely, than happy days.no, they're not my first choice, but career wise, very possibly a great choice. Quelle sera sera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonb Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Err, it was a question numbnuts, not quoting you. Haha numbnuts.. Haven't heard that in years :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonb Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 We can't offer players anything but money. Nothing. Cash is our only drawer. I wonder what McMenemy offered Keegan all those years ago... Obviously his money back for the light bulb but what else??? The project was alive and well back then I would argue. Kids and some senior pros coming to the end of their careers. IMO I don't think that transfer will ever be topped at SFC. I'm now indifferent to this guy signing. Really wanted it to happen, will be chuffed if it does, but not overly bothered if he doesn't sign. Only want players who want to be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintadjg Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Fair enough, agree to disagree. I would love another team to finish in the top 4 rather than the usual lot but just can't see who they will displace at the moment. Depends on Bale in m view. If they keep him, they'll make it. If they don't, they won't. I just can't see them spending what they've spent and not cashing in. Agree that they have a very good squad and manager though. Can also see them letting a striker go which will leave them in the same situation they were last season. Which goes back to the point, would Osvaldo play second fiddle? Crazy as it might seem but i think they will be a stronger team without Bale.He is one the very best in the world,but the money they will get will make the team so much stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiesaint Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Crazy as it might seem but i think they will be a stronger team without Bale.He is one the very best in the world,but the money they will get will make the team so much stronger. I agree, in much the same way as Arsenal became a better 'team' without relying on RVP to score 30 odd goals for them. With regards to a choice between Spurs and Saints then Spurs really do have the upper hand. Whether they sell Bale or not, then they're in a really strong position to qualify for the CL next season, they have Europa League football this season, They're in London which is where he wants to live (you can argue about the merits of it all day but his perception is what counts right now), and they're a bigger name than us. There are 3 factors that may be able to swing it our way - the first as Turkish points out is money, the question is how motivated by money is he? His desire is to go to Inter, how much are they offering - probably less than we are, so money whilst a factor is not the only factor. Actually, I like the fact that he knows where he wants to go, and probably isn't the biggest wagepack on offer. Secondly, will he actually play at Spurs? I don't know Osvaldo well enough and not seen enough of Negredo over the last couple of years to know if they could play together or if they're too similar. Finally, there is the Pochettino effect. Having played for him before and seemingly got on well with MP, his comments would indicate he think highly of MP - that common ground could be useful in helping him settle if he's got to move to new country and learn the language. What would worry me is if Arsenal came in for him, they have all of advantages of Spurs, plus CL football (assuming they make it through the qualifying round), despite being frugal they will pay the wages, and he would be pretty much guaranteed to be first choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Congratulations to the circular argument squad. Awoke to an extra two pages on the thread and felt sure something must have happened overnight. Sems not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbob40 Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 If Osvaldo signs........Rickie on the bench at his age? We will have a serious issue to deal with as Rickie will want to leave. With Cork and Rickie out of the team you have then lost two of our leaders on the pitch and swapped them for a couple of untrieds who , let's face it, would rather be elsewhere in the first place judging by the delay in each transfer. A team of well paid reluctant mercenaries..........is that we want to see? It might work on football manager but the likes of QPR is a more graphic representation of the likely reality. Personally I would like to see players playing for us who actually cared about the club and will not be sulking or agitating for a move after half a season. I am surprised few posters think the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Congratulations to the circular argument squad. Awoke to an extra two pages on the thread and felt sure something must have happened overnight. Sems not. I was going to post the same thing myself. Sometimes this place is like the Monty Python argument sketch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 I was going to post the same thing myself. Sometimes this place is like the Monty Python argument sketch. No it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 I was going to post the same thing myself. Sometimes this place is like the Monty Python argument sketch. 5 weeks, sir? Or, the full 10 week package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 No it's not. That's not an argument, it's just contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convict Colony Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 No it's not. Didn't have much of a sleep tokes, 1:46am then 8:30am, was it a late night on the common ? Am betting he agree's to join today and we hear about it on Monday, everyone like's Saturday and playing week in and week out scoring in the PL must be quite attractive to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Patrik Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Luxury - when I was young we lived in a shoebox in the middle of the road........ Etc : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Rabbit Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 Personally I would like to see players playing for us who actually cared about the club and will not be sulking or agitating for a move after half a season. I am surprised few posters think the same way I'm sure Dean Hammond, Richard Chaplow and forum favourite Billy Sharp 'care' about the club....Chaplow or Wanyama... Tough choice! Billy Sharp or any international proven striker.... Another tough one. We need to sign better players to become better. Robinho probably didn't want to go to Man City but they flashed the cash, paid him a fortune and then all of a sudden all these players started coming in ,getting better and better each time and then they go and win the league. Do you think a player like Sergio Aguero (being who he is now) would have entertained going to Man City 10 years ago? If / when Osvaldo signs, he probably starts and probably scores lots... He takes the burden off Lambert and adds undeniable quality. The fact that people seem to be against us trying to sign international 'B level' players to progress so that we can hopefully start signing Robinho's and other superstars whilst keeping our own, is quite laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbob40 Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 But the choice is Cork v Wanyama ; Rickie v Osvaldo........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 But the choice is Cork v Wanyama ; Rickie v Osvaldo........ So what do we want? Players with no competition for their places? Doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me. "It's a squad game" (as they say in cliche land) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 But the choice is Cork v Wanyama ; Rickie v Osvaldo........ For a couple of matches maybe but all those players will feature heavily. If you want to be a good team you can't just have 11 good players. Competition is vital and injuries and loss of form a fact of football. If we didnt sign anyone better than Lambert for fear of upsetting him we would soon get relegated. The players know big players will sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westmidlandsaint Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 I don't get this train of thought that if a player comes here for money they are not going to try etc If a player comes here for £60k he's probably going to play out of his skin to try and get a move to a big 4 or top European club who will pay him £100k a week. It's no different than a sales person leaving a £20k a year job to go to £25k a year job he's not going to stop selling just because he went there for the extra money, we are just talking bigger numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Patrik Posted 17 August, 2013 Share Posted 17 August, 2013 For a couple of matches maybe but all those players will feature heavily. If you want to be a good team you can't just have 11 good players. Competition is vital and injuries and loss of form a fact of football. If we didnt sign anyone better than Lambert for fear of upsetting him we would soon get relegated. The players know big players will sign. You sir talk to visely for this place - this is the best post in this tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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