Tonda Eckert

[trousers]

47 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Without opening a new can of worms, what about the senior players. Did they not at least suspect something with the information he was bringing to the table. Different era I know, but I’m sure a player of two would have had a quiet word with Lawrie had they thought he was crossing a line. And that line would cost them and the club a massive amount. 

Yep, I floated this a while back... as you say, surely some players questioned where this wonderful new 'inside information' was coming from... human beings are naturally curious and inquisitive creatures... apart from football players, it would seem.... that said, maybe there's a good reason we've only seen statements from 3 players so far, and the rest are keeping quiet....?

Edited 5 hours ago by trousers

[trousers]

31 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I don't think that's how 'taking the bullet' works. Unless our management are so mind-bogglingly inept that they can't even do that right. 

[James G]

9 minutes ago, trousers said:

Yep, I floated this a while back... as you say, surely some players questioned where this wonderful new 'inside information' was coming from... human beings are naturally curious and inquisitive creatures... apart from football players, it would seem.... that said, maybe there's a good reason we've only seen statements from 3 players so far, and the rest are keeing quiet....?

I think that's the irony

I'm not sure how much the spying helped.

I still maintain that it wasn't done at every ground because you just can't do it at every ground.

I think, in the main, for what the spying has cost us, it was just a crazy thing to do

[Stu Man Do]

1 hour ago, Paul_B said:

I normally agree with a lot of what you say MG, but I guess this is the beauty of people seeing things in different ways. 

This whole saga smacks to me of a sappy gen Z intern with zero character who has been told to go and do some homework on the oppo teams. Tonda has probably given his words of wisdom from his, seemingly, years of experience, the intern doesn't like it so feels like he's being "bullied" so gets himself "caught" and the whole thing blows up. I could well be wrong but that's my take on it.

"Bullied" so badly that he did it at Oxford, refused at Ipswich and then went and did it again at Boro. He's fighting for his own career as well so I can understand he needs to get out of this in a more positive light than if he admitted he's gone along with it all but hardly sounds like he was coerced too harshly. No doubt stuck a laughing emoji on his camouflage image in the group chat!! 

[Sarnia Cherie]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Ipswich were training at Eastleigh's ground. He could have walked there.

Maybe he was fed up with what he was being told to do?

[Ken Tone]

1 hour ago, LegalEagle said:

I believe that the FA’s jurisdiction is only England and Wales. So he could go to Scotland I believe. We could do a swap with Rangers.

So unless the FA persuades FIFA otherwise which seems unlikely, Eckert can just toddle off back home with a reputation as a winner and get himself a well paid job in the  bundesleague 

Not much of a sanction is it. 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Maybe he was fed up with what he was being told to do?

Go to Eastleigh?

 

Fair point.

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Fabrice has been fairly quiet on here recently, to be fair....

 

Not quiet enough

[LegalEagle]

14 minutes ago, Ken Tone said:

So unless the FA persuades FIFA otherwise which seems unlikely, Eckert can just toddle off back home with a reputation as a winner and get himself a well paid job in the  bundesleague 

Not much of a sanction is it. 

Nothing to stop him now just resigning and going back home. Saints are not going to make him serve his notice. I’d be sorely tempted to do that if I were him rather than being grilled by the FA for hours. To be honest, there aren’t going to be a queue of clubs in England going for him in the future. He can go back to the continent and cheat away until his heart is content.

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, Viking Saint said:

This has crossed my mind quite a lot as well. How often have we, on this forum, described our own team as too nice and a 'team of son-in-laws'? I don't mind having some edge and aggro to us and for coming to SMS to stop being such a pleasant experience for away teams and fans.

We're the only club in the world that could go from 'inoffensive, friendly family club and a bit of a soft touch' to 'evil incarnate and cheating so badly as to get thrown out of major competitions' in the blink of an eye. 

It reminds me of this timeline: 

25th October 2019: Lose 0-9 at home in a league game. 

9th November 2020: Go top of the Premier League.

2nd Feb 2021: Lose 9-0 in a league game. 

Never any middle ground with Saints. 

Absolutely mental club. 

Oh well, in theory it should mean that the pendulum will swing back the other way next season and new first team manager Adam Lallana will probably stumble across a global cure for Ebola or something. 

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I wonder if this would have happened if Trollope was still the Asst, or even Les Read as DoF. Seems to me that this inexperienced talented bloke, had the run of the place as was able to run roughshod over established practices. As long as I can remember young inexperienced managers have had experienced mentors to lean on, even in an unofficial capacity. I’ve been reading about Ferguson’s Aberdeen days & he’d frequently discuss things with Jock Stein who took him under his wing. Lawrie obviously had Ted around the place. They don’t seem to now, and that’s a massive gap in mangers locker. They all think they know it all. 
 

Without opening a new can of worms, what about the senior players. Did they not at least suspect something with the information he was bringing to the table. Different era I know, but I’m sure a player of two would have had a quiet word with Lawrie had they thought he was crossing a line. And that line would cost them and the club a massive amount. 
 

It seems it was so widespread that somebody somewhere should have known, and ultimately somebody should pay for that regardless of whether they knew or not. 

It would never have happened on Eric Black's watch, let me tell you 

[Ted Bates Statue]

45 minutes ago, Stu Man Do said:

"Bullied" so badly that he did it at Oxford, refused at Ipswich and then went and did it again at Boro. He's fighting for his own career as well so I can understand he needs to get out of this in a more positive light than if he admitted he's gone along with it all but hardly sounds like he was coerced too harshly. No doubt stuck a laughing emoji on his camouflage image in the group chat!! 

Not only that but he had a paid role at Villa until recently which he chose to relinquish in favour of returning to us. No doubt someone will wring their hands and compare it to a domestic abusive marriage but when you think there were internal whatsapp memes of him as a camouflaged soldier, I get the impression that while it was certainly a high-pressure role, there might have been a lot more camaraderie and willing participation than he was letting on in front of the panel. 

The halfheartedness of the so-called "espionage" remains unbelievably galling to me and the image of him next to the tree dwarfs the original Ted Bates statue debacle in its ridiculousness and cost. We can never underestimate how shonky this club can behave.

It sounds like internships in football are quite widespread and the phrase "pay peanuts, get monkeys" springs to mind. No doubt a future Panorama programme will delve deeper and perhaps other teams might consider how they treat their staff, under threat of potentially derailing their season. At the very least, Jason Taylor could have been handled with a NDA before he scurried back to Boro with his findings.

[Midfield_General]

1 minute ago, Ted Bates Statue said:

At the very least, Jason Taylor could have been handled with a NDA before he scurried back to Boro with his findings.

[saintant]

5 minutes ago, Ted Bates Statue said:

Not only that but he had a paid role at Villa until recently which he chose to relinquish in favour of returning to us. No doubt someone will wring their hands and compare it to a domestic abusive marriage but when you think there were internal whatsapp memes of him as a camouflaged soldier, I get the impression that while it was certainly a high-pressure role, there might have been a lot more camaraderie and willing participation than he was letting on in front of the panel. 

The halfheartedness of the so-called "espionage" remains unbelievably galling to me and the image of him next to the tree dwarfs the original Ted Bates statue debacle in its ridiculousness and cost. We can never underestimate how shonky this club can behave.

It sounds like internships in football are quite widespread and the phrase "pay peanuts, get monkeys" springs to mind. No doubt a future Panorama programme will delve deeper and perhaps other teams might consider how they treat their staff, under threat of potentially derailing their season. At the very least, Jason Taylor could have been handled with a NDA before he scurried back to Boro with his findings.

Ah, the original Ted Bates statue - thanks for cheering me up. The image of that never fails to make me laugh.

[Jack]

Delaying sacking Tonda just makes the rest of the club look complicit. It’s inevitable that he’ll lose his job, they just need to get on with it and start the rebuild asap. The longer it goes on, the more likely players are going to look for moves. Get rid asap and try to employ someone respectable, and put a proper apology out to the fans. 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

It would never have happened on Eric Black's watch, let me tell you 

Or Dennis Rofe

Edited 3 hours ago by Badger

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Jack said:

Delaying sacking Tonda just makes the rest of the club look complicit. It’s inevitable that he’ll lose his job, they just need to get on with it and start the rebuild asap. The longer it goes on, the more likely players are going to look for moves. Get rid asap and try to employ someone respectable, and put a proper apology out to the fans. 

Phils had a word with him, told him he shouldn't have done it, we'll release a statement to the fans about how we dont like this sort of thing but we support our own in tought times. So can you, you can show your support by buying tickets for the new lounge we're opening at SMS where you can get a premium burger, sweet potato fries and a pint ofr just 30 sheets. Show your support for Tonda as we aim to return back to where we belong next season. lets go Saints!

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Yep, I floated this a while back... as you say, surely some players questioned where this wonderful new 'inside information' was coming from... human beings are naturally curious and inquisitive creatures... apart from football players, it would seem.... that said, maybe there's a good reason we've only seen statements from 3 players so far, and the rest are keeping quiet....?

Im not convinced none of them knew, like all of us & 99% of the media,they didn’t quite realise how serious it would be taken. If it was kept from the players, it blows “we didn’t know it was illegal “ defence out the water, if you thought it was legal you’d say “we had Oxford watched yesterday” & they’ll playing X formation today”. I know some are a bit dopey, but surely some senior pros who have played for a dozen managers and 5 or 6 clubs would suspect something. I’m praying Baz was in on it, and faces a lengthy ban. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[Jack]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Phils had a word with him, told him he shouldn't have done it, we'll release a statement to the fans about how we dont like this sort of thing but we support our own in tought times. So can you, you can show your support by buying tickets for the new lounge we're opening at SMS where you can get a premium burger, sweet potato fries and a pint ofr just 30 sheets. Show your support for Tonda as we aim to return back to where we belong next season. lets go Saints!

Yeah I don’t doubt that ST renewal info will be out before they’ve dealt with it. Maybe they’ll really give back to the fans by keeping it to a meagre 10% increase 

[Osvaldorama]

Thank you Tonda for making your mark on the greatest era in our history™

[Midfield_General]

17 minutes ago, Jack said:

Delaying sacking Tonda just makes the rest of the club look complicit. It’s inevitable that he’ll lose his job, they just need to get on with it and start the rebuild asap. The longer it goes on, the more likely players are going to look for moves. Get rid asap and try to employ someone respectable, and put a proper apology out to the fans. 

Personally I want Five Pledges from Parsons, and I want them now. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Phils had a word with him, told him he shouldn't have done it, we'll release a statement to the fans about how we dont like this sort of thing but we support our own in tought times. So can you, you can show your support by buying tickets for the new lounge we're opening at SMS where you can get a premium burger, sweet potato fries and a pint ofr just 30 sheets. Show your support for Tonda as we aim to return back to where we belong next season. lets go Saints!

I just find knowing that a demoted Tonda is there tracking my order history, and viewing my eating habits through security footage, a bit off-putting.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Personally I want Five Pledges from Parsons, and I want them now. 

Certainly in difficult times strong, decisive action is required. I couldn't think of a better way out of this for Parsons to release something akin to the elusive five pledges Kruger failed to deliver. This would show us that we are in better hands now than ever before. It's not about what we've done it's about what we do next. 

[Draino76]

Hopefully Tonda leans from his mistakes, and takes us to the Champions League the year after next.

Edited 4 hours ago by Draino76
Grammar.

[Midfield_General]

12 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Certainly in difficult times strong, decisive action is required. I couldn't think of a better way out of this for Parsons to release something akin to the elusive five pledges Kruger failed to deliver. This would show us that we are in better hands now than ever before. It's not about what we've done it's about what we do next. 

I've actually just heard from a source who is usually spot on that Parsons is making a statement at 5pm tonight to reveal the All New Five Pledges, which I'm told are: 

1. Serve the Public Trust

2. Protect the Innocent

3. Uphold the Law*

4. Play Three at the Back

5. Classified

(* apparently this one "still needs a bit of work", according to Phil) 

 

[Football Special]

45 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Phils had a word with him, told him he shouldn't have done it, we'll release a statement to the fans about how we dont like this sort of thing but we support our own in tought times. So can you, you can show your support by buying tickets for the new lounge we're opening at SMS where you can get a premium burger, sweet potato fries and a pint ofr just 30 sheets. Show your support for Tonda as we aim to return back to where we belong next season. lets go Saints!

Sign me up 

Genuinely looking forward to the carabao Cup 1st round start of August,  get back out there and start the March to the Arch again 

[Football Special]

37 minutes ago, Jack said:

Yeah I don’t doubt that ST renewal info will be out before they’ve dealt with it. Maybe they’ll really give back to the fans by keeping it to a meagre 10% increase 

*but an extra hour of season ticket holder discount in the fan zones each home game, total saving actually represents a discount on this year's prices 

#spendtosave 

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, LegalEagle said:

Nothing to stop him now just resigning and going back home. Saints are not going to make him serve his notice. I’d be sorely tempted to do that if I were him rather than being grilled by the FA for hours. To be honest, there aren’t going to be a queue of clubs in England going for him in the future. He can go back to the continent and cheat away until his heart is content.

Just wondering whether we are holding off sacking until the FA investigation has concluded. Possibly the FA investigation works a bit like an injunction. Maybe not I don't know. But if he is still employed by SFC he is less likely to spill the beans about what else has gone on or who else is involved. If he was sacked before he could in theory just go ballistic and make things a whole lot worse.

[Dan Johnson]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Delaying sacking Tonda just makes the rest of the club look complicit. It’s inevitable that he’ll lose his job, they just need to get on with it and start the rebuild asap. The longer it goes on, the more likely players are going to look for moves. Get rid asap and try to employ someone respectable, and put a proper apology out to the fans. 

I think the situation is more complex to be honest.

Although Tonda has been heavily implicated and involved, we're still unaware of when the practice of spying on other teams began and ultimately who is the main implementor of the practice. 

If the spying precedes Tonda and happened under Multiple previous managers and implemented at the sporting director level, then it becomes very difficult, legally, to sack Tonda on charges of gross misconduct if it was an intuitional problem, maybe it was forced on Tonda from a higher level?

We see this in gross misconduct cases all the time, where an employee has been fired but then opens a counter claim against the organization where they explain their actions were in line with the systemic problems throughout that organization and that their being made a scape goat.

I think the longer it goes on without personnel leaving or being fired probably indicates that the spying has gone on pre-Tonda and is much more deep rooted than we think, it doesn't mean he wont eventually leave, but it hopefully means we're ensuring their is no come back when we do eventually get rid of him.

That may mean we have to wait for the robust internal investigation to be completed.
 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

So in 2014, France accused Germany of spying on their training session. Makes you think it must be a German thing until you realise the Head Analyst for the World Cup was one Tonda Eckert. Then in 2015 Cologne were caught spying. Their Assistant Manager...Tonda Eckert!

While I personally don't see this as such the crime of the century that others do, it does make you think that Tonda should have been given a quick lecture when he joined to say we don't do things like that here. 

It's highly likely that a lot of people knew what he was doing which might explain why Tonda hasn't departed yet. Can you make a scapegoat of one person?

[Grim Reaper]

I hope we keep him after the dust has settled, a top manager who will be on a mission next season to prove everyone wrong who thinks it was just the spying that got the results. He should be given the chance to win over the supporters with a charge up the league under a siege mentality.

i personally don’t give shit what the opposing fans are singing as long as the results are there.

 

[Bushey Saint]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Go to Eastleigh?

 

Fair point.

Now, now - we were once within an inch of moving our ground to what is technically Eastleigh (Stoneham Lane).  As I recall it was Fred Dineage (of all people) who stopped us.

[Bushey Saint]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

I've actually just heard from a source who is usually spot on that Parsons is making a statement at 5pm tonight to reveal the All New Five Pledges, which I'm told are: 

1. Serve the Public Trust

2. Protect the Innocent

3. Uphold the Law*

4. Play Three at the Back

5. Classified

(* apparently this one "still needs a bit of work", according to Phil) 

 

And isn't at all related to No 5.  Nothing to see here, move along now.

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

So in 2014, France accused Germany of spying on their training session. Makes you think it must be a German thing until you realise the Head Analyst for the World Cup was one Tonda Eckert. Then in 2015 Cologne were caught spying. Their Assistant Manager...Tonda Eckert!

While I personally don't see this as such the crime of the century that others do, it does make you think that Tonda should have been given a quick lecture when he joined to say we don't do things like that here. 

It's highly likely that a lot of people knew what he was doing which might explain why Tonda hasn't departed yet. Can you make a scapegoat of one person?

What's bonkers is that it appears we (Spors?) did zero due diligence on Eckert's background before employing him? Surely these previous spying cases would have come to light during the recruitment process if he'd been properly screened? Another example of the hierarchy neglecting the compliance function within the club maybe...? Or was Spors already aware of Eckert's previous involvement in 'spying' incidents and conveniently ignored it...?

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Bushey Saint]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

What's bonkers is that it appears we (Spors?) did zero due diligence on Eckert's background before employing him? Surely these previous spying cases would have come to light during the recruitment process if her been properly screened? Another example of the hierarchy neglecting the compliance function within the club maybe...? Or was Spors already aware of Eckert's previous involvement in 'spying' incidents and conveniently ignored it...?

This is just getting worse and worse.

[sfc4prem]

I don't remember every one of my posts on the matter, but I'm still in the 'keep Tonda and fuck the world' camp. 

Scouting out opposition training? Not a big deal. Shrugged off on the continent, but the precious cunts in England can't be having it. 

[skintsaint]

18 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

So in 2014, France accused Germany of spying on their training session. Makes you think it must be a German thing until you realise the Head Analyst for the World Cup was one Tonda Eckert. Then in 2015 Cologne were caught spying. Their Assistant Manager...Tonda Eckert!

Was it against the rules in both instances though?

[Saint_clark]

22 minutes ago, Grim Reaper said:

I hope we keep him after the dust has settled, a top manager who will be on a mission next season to prove everyone wrong who thinks it was just the spying that got the results. He should be given the chance to win over the supporters with a charge up the league under a siege mentality.

i personally don’t give shit what the opposing fans are singing as long as the results are there.

 

There's no evidence that he's a top manager, there's only evidence we succeeded because he was gaining an unfair advantage over his opponent. 

[Cuddles]

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

What's bonkers is that it appears we (Spors?) did zero due diligence on Eckert's background before employing him? Surely these previous spying cases would have come to light during the recruitment process if her been properly screened? Another example of the hierarchy neglecting the compliance function within the club maybe...? Or was Spors already aware of Eckert's previous involvement in 'spying' incidents and conveniently ignored it...?

I'm not sure that counts as bonkers with SR at the helm 😉

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

Was it against the rules in both instances though?

I doubt it. On the continent, I don't know but get the impression it's more or less accepted that teams scout other teams. But given the precedent with Bielsa, we know you can be fined if caught in this country so we should have at least told Tonda not to do it.

[sfc4prem]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

There's no evidence that he's a top manager, there's only evidence we succeeded because he was gaining an unfair advantage over his opponent. 

You said a while back that you didn't think it gave that much of an advantage?

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, sfc4prem said:

You said a while back that you didn't think it gave that much of an advantage?

I didn't think it did but the more quotes appear from players talking about his attention to detail and how he tells the players how to counter every little aspect of an opponents game, the harder it is to believe it.

[31cc]

24 minutes ago, Bushey Saint said:

Now, now - we were once within an inch of moving our ground to what is technically Eastleigh (Stoneham Lane).  As I recall it was Fred Dineage (of all people) who stopped us.

How?

[sfc4prem]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

I didn't think it did but the more quotes appear from players talking about his attention to detail and how he tells the players how to counter every little aspect of an opponents game, the harder it is to believe it.

It gave him ammunition, for sure. It's then utilising it with formations, players, diluting it and disseminating it in a way easily understandable to multiple players. He could certainly motivate, too.

Scouting their training gave potential for tactical advantage, but only if Tonda and his team came up with ways to exploit it to the fullest extent. I certainly can't compute the idea that this surveillance granted Tonda the ability to make our players run themselves into the ground or keep attacking late into the 90th minute.

[Weston Super Saint]

Just clarifying the timeline!

Last week, spying wasn't a big deal, after all what could you possibly glean from watching training a couple of days before a match that you couldn't get from watching every match ever played? 

This week, Tonda is the devil incarnate.  Spying on teams and blatantly disregarding all the rules.  There's no other explanation for our recent improvements other than spying on teams a couple of days before the match.

Last week, Boro fans were off the chart crazy.  This week....

[Saint_clark]

2 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

It gave him ammunition, for sure. It's then utilising it with formations, players, diluting it and disseminating it in a way easily understandable to multiple players. He could certainly motivate, too.

Scouting their training gave potential for tactical advantage, but only if Tonda and his team came up with ways to exploit it to the fullest extent. I certainly can't compute the idea that this surveillance granted Tonda the ability to make our players run themselves into the ground or keep attacking late into the 90th minute.

Look, you're probably right. But at the end of the day his actions have seriously damaged the clubs future prospects and reputation with either willful breaches of the rules or naive negligence.  

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Just clarifying the timeline!

Last week, spying wasn't a big deal, after all what could you possibly glean from watching training a couple of days before a match that you couldn't get from watching every match ever played? 

This week, Tonda is the devil incarnate.  Spying on teams and blatantly disregarding all the rules.  There's no other explanation for our recent improvements other than spying on teams a couple of days before the match.

Last week, Boro fans were off the chart crazy.  This week....

I'd go as far to say we've all become unhinged

[sfc4prem]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Just clarifying the timeline!

Last week, spying wasn't a big deal, after all what could you possibly glean from watching training a couple of days before a match that you couldn't get from watching every match ever played? 

This week, Tonda is the devil incarnate.  Spying on teams and blatantly disregarding all the rules.  There's no other explanation for our recent improvements other than spying on teams a couple of days before the match.

Last week, Boro fans were off the chart crazy.  This week....

I think...

a) the news reports on the facts that Tonda ordered it done on multiple occasions and

b) the huge sanction we've been given

... have made many so frustrated that theyve lost sight of the fact that this 'crime' is not the morally deplorable act the EFL would have your mother, brother, auntie and granddaughter believe it is.

We are surely all agreed it is stupid. Stupid to get caught. Stupid in that our squad was good enough to win without it. Stupid in that Parsons handed it to Gibson and the EFal on a plate, expecting clemency and the same response Bielsa got.

Again, heads should roll. Not for moral reasons, but for incompetence in the actions themselves and our lazy response to it.

[bugenhagen]

14 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

I don't remember every one of my posts on the matter, but I'm still in the 'keep Tonda and fuck the world' camp. 

Scouting out opposition training? Not a big deal. Shrugged off on the continent, but the precious cunts in England can't be having it. 

I live on “the continent”, and not a single person I have spoken to has called the club cheats, and said that the cheating part is bad for the reputation of the club. 

But everyone is making fun of how bad we are at spying. They have seen the photo and can’t stop laughing. 

I’m receiving a lot of banter about how amateurish we are, but nothing about us being a morally bad club or cheats.

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, bugenhagen said:

I live on “the continent”, and not a single person I have spoken to has called the club cheats, and said that the cheating part is bad for the reputation of the club. 

But everyone is making fun of how bad we are at spying. They have seen the photo and can’t stop laughing. 

I’m receiving a lot of banter about how amateurish we are, but nothing about us being a morally bad club or cheats.

Rightly fucking so!

Spied on 3 games and gained 1 point from them. That's what should be being punished.