Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Toadhall Saint]

44 minutes ago, DT said:

1. If Will Salt deleted all his stuff, how did we gain advantage, since we wouldn’t have anything to look at?

2. Why didn’t he just use his eyes if it was just about whether certain players were training?

3. Or just get Meta glasses. 
we can’t even do spying well. 

As this seems to be a common phrase on here - this boils my piss. We have not been charged with breaking a regulation about gaining an advantage - we have been charged with breaking a regulation about observing another clubs 1st team training within the 72 hour period. We may or may not have gained an advantage but that is very much open to interpretation the observation within 72 hours is not it’s very yes or no. 

[Sir Ralph]

3 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

One thing I don't get is why he allegedly ran off to get changed....doesn't look to be wearing any Saints gear in that picture to incriminate himself. 

Probably worried local population were going to nick his joggers!

Edited Saturday at 20:45 by Sir Ralph

[saintant]

24 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Probably one reason why no other clubs have come forward (that we know of) to support Middlesbrough.

Every club does it so would be hypocritical of them. Unfortunately Boro seem to have decided to take the moral high ground and stir up this shit storm - they've made a mountain out of a molehill and it would be a travesty if they are awarded a place in the final as a result of their faux outrage.

Edited Saturday at 20:51 by saintant

[LeBizzier69]

I’m going to have another beer and catch up on the last 5 pages. Cheers!

[saintant]

5 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

One thing I don't get is why he allegedly ran off to get changed....doesn't look to be wearing any Saints gear in that picture to incriminate himself. 

Yeah, if he got changed presumably that was to help avoid getting caught so he took a lot of trouble and came prepared - yet prior to that he brazenly 'poses' for their camera while stood next to a tree in view of all and sundry. Something here just doesn't add up.

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Twats on social media from supporters of both clubs saying they have heard decision reached and it's entirely opposing outcomes. In reality of course nothing has been decided yet. 

I’ve heard that there is no case to answer so we have been automatically promoted to make up for all the stress caused in the last week. Boro also have to give us Hayden Hackney in a straight swap for Baz and Damian Downs a the photo of salt was proven to be AI. Happy days lads

[Sir Ralph]

10 minutes ago, saintant said:

Every club does it so would be hypocritical of them. Unfortunately Boro seem to have decided to take the moral high ground and stir up this shit storm - they've made a mountain out of a molehill and it would be a travesty if they are awarded a place in the final as a result with their faux outrage.

I would hope boro are squeaky clean in all respects in relation to all their dealings. I wonder if they are? I agree the faux outrage is embarrassing. 

Edited Saturday at 20:57 by Sir Ralph

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

One thing I don't get is why he allegedly ran off to get changed....doesn't look to be wearing any Saints gear in that picture to incriminate himself. 

That’s one of many things that don’t stack up in this. So much bullshit spouted difficult to know what true

[SNSUN]

1 hour ago, kwsaint said:

I’ll tell you what, if the worst comes to the worst and they chuck us out the play offs, I’d want Hull to go up automatically for the sole reason that we’d then play Boro twice next season with the opportunity to end a few of their players’ careers.

If, and I say this hypothetically as I don't believe we will, get pulled from the final, the biggest pisser of it all will be that we can clearly see the reason we have gone on such a good run to get us to the play-offs in top of the League form is because we have the best players that are being coached right and have belief in themselves. Not because of a little bit of spying a couple of days before a game. The team has earned our right to be there. Boro fans are acting like a bloke by a tree with an iPhone is the sole reason we've reached the play-offs and been the best team in recent months.

The loss of our best players over the summer will be the biggest punishment if we don't go up. I'd love to see them in the Prem with a few good additions.

As I say hypothetical because I think the worst we'll get is a huge fine (as a warning to others) and a points deduction for whatever League we're in.

Anyway I'm speculating, which has been the problem with most people surrounding this incident when nobody really knows anything about seeing as Saints have been tight-lipped their side. 

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, SNSUN said:

If, and I say this hypothetically as I don't believe we will, get pulled from the final, the biggest pisser of it all will be that we can clearly see the reason we have gone on such a good run to get us to the play-offs in top of the League form is because we have the best players that are being coached right and have belief in themselves. Not because of a little bit of spying a couple of days before a game. The team has earned our right to be there. Boro fans are acting like a bloke by a tree with an iPhone is the sole reason we've reached the play-offs and been the best team in recent months.

The loss of our best players over the summer will be the biggest punishment if we don't go up. I'd love to see them in the Prem with a few good additions.

As I say hypothetical because I think the worst we'll get is a huge fine (as a warning to others) and a points deduction for whatever League we're in.

Anyway I'm speculating, which has been the problem with most people surrounding this incident when nobody really knows anything about seeing as Saints have been tight-lipped their side. 

But can they take off points in the PL? I thought they had no jurisdiction- so it would be next time we are in the championship

[BarberSaint]

18 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

One thing I don't get is why he allegedly ran off to get changed....doesn't look to be wearing any Saints gear in that picture to incriminate himself. 

Wanted to look good for the Daily Mail.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Middlesbrough took the same approach with Derby, years back!

Wanted to be at the hearing, so why they would expect it to be any different now is borderline stupid.

[aintforever]

22 minutes ago, saintant said:

Every club does it so would be hypocritical of them. Unfortunately Boro seem to have decided to take the moral high ground and stir up this shit storm - they've made a mountain out of a molehill and it would be a travesty if they are awarded a place in the final as a result of their faux outrage.

I expect every club does it, it must pretty easy to get away with if you have any sense. Even if someone spots you, you just leg it and no one will be able to prove a thing. Our idiot just stands there filming in full view even though he could presumably see the fucking club photographer out there with the players. Boro probably couldn’t believe their luck, especially as the idiot’s face was up on the club website.

Anyone involved in the whole shit show needs sacking, I don’t care who they are.

Edited Saturday at 21:07 by aintforever

[Gary R76]

1 hour ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Once you set a harsh precedent you can create yourself a problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm personally looking forward to every single discrepancy being scrutinised to the point of insanity over the coming months. They started it. 

I reckon 6 point and 4.5 million

[LegalEagle]

9 minutes ago, Reggie Dunlop said:

Middlesbrough took the same approach with Derby, years back!

Wanted to be at the hearing, so why they would expect it to be any different now is borderline stupid.

Indeed - see the quote below from my Derby County mate when we were exchanging messages earlier today. Gibson has form for this. History repeating. He’s after cash:

 

Gibson sued DCFC after Mel Morris fucked up all those years ago and we beat Middlesbrough to 6th place. Gibson argued this was a result of DCFC cheating, conveniently ignoring the fact that his bunch of choppers, when they were well in the playoff places in February, only won 5 of their last 12 matches, 9 of which were against teams below them in the league.

 

 

[LegalEagle]

Re my messsge above. I’ve had messages of support today from mates who are Arsenal,  Derby, Coventry, Norwich, Leicester and Plymouth fans. They all despise Middlesbrough and Gibson in particular.

[DrSuess1979]

15 minutes ago, Gary R76 said:

I reckon 6 point and 4.5 million

I’ve heard the exact same 

[die Mannyschaft]

4 minutes ago, Gary R76 said:

I reckon 6 point and 4.5 million

7 points and £8m , Tonda season ban and possibly ather staff. as all England clubs want us out of final. 

Its still a possibility to remove Saints from final and not rearrange final so no issues with broadcaster TV just cancel final. I think Boro would be very happy and suggested that as the just want Saints not promoted. 

There doesn't need to be any proof of advantage gained as Saints have broken the rule. Don't think most fans cared about Derby and Leeds but Boro have campaigned anx got club's on board and now EFL have to please all club's not just Boro.

Its a strange decision to allow ticket sales then hint game and club's may change. Plus why are they leaving decision till Tuesday.  

EFL will go as far as they can on pojnts and fines or Wembley exit as there is too much noise from sky pundits club's fans and its overrun EFL.

 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, DrSuess1979 said:

I’ve heard the exact same 

Yeah it's on social media as chinese whispers. No one has actually heard something reliable 

[SNSUN]

29 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

But can they take off points in the PL? I thought they had no jurisdiction- so it would be next time we are in the championship

Points can be transferable between the Leagues but only if the Premier League accept it. Otherwise it'd be suspended until we got relegated again. Of course if Hull win it'd be next season anyway and we'd have to beat Boro twice to make up for it.  😝

[die Mannyschaft]

10 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

Re my messsge above. I’ve had messages of support today from mates who are Arsenal,  Derby, Coventry, Norwich, Leicester and Plymouth fans. They all despise Middlesbrough and Gibson in particular.

That surprises me but good for us.

[Gary R76]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Yeah it's on social media as chinese whispers. No one has actually heard something reliable 

I heard from someone who is very close to Jack Stephens , but it could be bollocks

[Saint Fan CaM]

22 minutes ago, Gary R76 said:

I reckon 6 point and 4.5 million

That would be outrageously disproportionate IMO.

[Cuddles]

7 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

7 points and £8m , Tonda season ban and possibly ather staff. as all England clubs want us out of final. 

Its still a possibility to remove Saints from final and not rearrange final so no issues with broadcaster TV just cancel final. I think Boro would be very happy and suggested that as the just want Saints not promoted. 

There doesn't need to be any proof of advantage gained as Saints have broken the rule. Don't think most fans cared about Derby and Leeds but Boro have campaigned anx got club's on board and now EFL have to please all club's not just Boro.

Its a strange decision to allow ticket sales then hint game and club's may change. Plus why are they leaving decision till Tuesday.  

EFL will go as far as they can on pojnts and fines or Wembley exit as there is too much noise from sky pundits club's fans and its overrun EFL.

 

Sorry, that is nonsense.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

That would be outrageously disproportionate IMO.

I'd take it though. Particularly if they don't apply next year if we go up. 

[Cuddles]

10 minutes ago, DrSuess1979 said:

I’ve heard the exact same 

This was being banded about via some fake audio clip. Likely nonsense!

[Pamplemousse]

Bring back Don Cortese to take on Gibbo

[die Mannyschaft]

45 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

But can they take off points in the PL? I thought they had no jurisdiction- so it would be next time we are in the championship

Just need PL to agree. That provides the option to give us a points deduction to almost guarantee relegation and fail to win v Hull then its a win win for Boro as makes it difficult for us to get top 6. 

I don't think Saints will appeal or take action as we dont have a rich backer. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, die Mannyschaft said:

Just need PL to agree. That provides the option to give us a points deduction to almost guarantee relegation and fail to win v Hull then its a win win for Boro as makes it difficult for us to get top 6. 

I don't think Saints will appeal or take action as we dont have a rich backer. 

It's top 8 next year which would still be achievable. 

[Cuddles]

7 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Just need PL to agree. That provides the option to give us a points deduction to almost guarantee relegation and fail to win v Hull then its a win win for Boro as makes it difficult for us to get top 6. 

I don't think Saints will appeal or take action as we dont have a rich backer. 

I think we'd go on and play the game and appeal anyway. Six points would be disproportionate, especially in the EPL with less games 😉

[LegalEagle]

23 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

That would be outrageously disproportionate IMO.

Yes it would

[badgerx16]

I wouldn't bother speculating on the result of the inquiry until the EFL announce the outcome. Until then it's just random bollox, often generated by AI, and forwarded by SM algorithms.

[SNSUN]

24 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

That would be outrageously disproportionate IMO.

I'd take that because a) means we're still in the final with a chance of the Prem and b) we can appeal it anyway. 

Nobody expects this to be fully over by Tuesday. Lawsuits and appeals will rumble on for months. The main decision is whether or not we get to play the final on Saturday. Get past that hurdle and the rest can be argued in court. 

[Saint_clark]

26 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

That would be outrageously disproportionate IMO.

The fine is maybe a touch high but I think the points deduction is about right as a precedent setting deterrent. 

[CanadaSaint]

It wouldn’t surprise me if the EFL top brass is wondering if they would be better without ANY rule on spying. The Leeds affair caught them unprepared, so they fudged a solution. Then they created a rule that effectively made it possible for spying to be either legal or illegal, but didn’t specify any punishment, so they’ve been caught unprepared again. All the while, this would be a non-issue in the PL, and other Championship teams are conspicuously silent because (in all likelihood) they’re spying regularly. And Boro are stoking a media frenzy that’s making the EFL look silly.

It might not impact their decision in Saints case, but it could also cause them to lean towards leniency because they’re probably going to ditch the rule at some point.

[Disco Stu]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

The fine is maybe a touch high but I think the points deduction is about right as a precedent setting deterrent. 

A points deduction for watching 30 minutes of an opponents training session equal to Leicester breaking financial rules over a 3 year period, winning the title and automatic promotion in the process with a squad better than they should have been able to afford PLUS a £4.5m fine???

Edited Saturday at 22:05 by Disco Stu

[Saint86]

1 minute ago, CanadaSaint said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if the EFL top brass is wondering if they would be better without ANY rule on spying. The Leeds affair caught them unprepared, so they fudged a solution. Then they created a rule that effectively made it possible for spying to be either legal or illegal, but didn’t specify any punishment, so they’ve been caught unprepared again. All the while, this would be a non-issue in the PL, and other Championship teams are conspicuously silent because (in all likelihood) they’re spying regularly. And Boro are stoking a media frenzy that’s making the EFL look silly.

It might not impact their decision in Saints case, but it could also cause them to lean towards leniency because they’re probably going to ditch the rule at some point.

I have wondered this as well. It's the only major league with such a rule as far as I am aware.

[Cuddles]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

The fine is maybe a touch high but I think the points deduction is about right as a precedent setting deterrent. 

Same as Leicester literally winning the league with a team they couldn't afford? 💀

[badgerx16]

Regarding any potential points deductions for the next season in the Championship, we were 18 points behind Boro on 26th January, and finished above them. 

Have faith that we can overcome whatever the EFL throw at us.

[sockeye]

6 points is too much, 3 would be more appropriate imo.

[Challenger]

59 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I expect every club does it, it must pretty easy to get away with if you have any sense. Even if someone spots you, you just leg it and no one will be able to prove a thing. Our idiot just stands there filming in full view even though he could presumably see the fucking club photographer out there with the players. Boro probably couldn’t believe their luck, especially as the idiot’s face was up on the club website.

Anyone involved in the whole shit show needs sacking, I don’t care who they are.

The club needs an arse kicking, not necessarily because they spied but because this pillock was fucking useless at doing it. 

[saintant]

39 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

7 points and £8m , Tonda season ban and possibly ather staff. as all England clubs want us out of final. 

Its still a possibility to remove Saints from final and not rearrange final so no issues with broadcaster TV just cancel final. I think Boro would be very happy and suggested that as the just want Saints not promoted. 

There doesn't need to be any proof of advantage gained as Saints have broken the rule. Don't think most fans cared about Derby and Leeds but Boro have campaigned anx got club's on board and now EFL have to please all club's not just Boro.

Its a strange decision to allow ticket sales then hint game and club's may change. Plus why are they leaving decision till Tuesday.  

EFL will go as far as they can on pojnts and fines or Wembley exit as there is too much noise from sky pundits club's fans and its overrun EFL.

 

And you know all this how?

[Saint_clark]

6 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

A points deduction for watching 30 minutes of an opponents training session equal to Leicester breaking financial rules over a 3 year period, winning the title and automatic promotion in the process with a squad better than they should have been able to afford PLUS a £4.5m fine???

 

5 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

Same as Leicester literally winning the league with a team they couldn't afford? 💀

What Leicester got is irrelevant, the EFL will need to make sure any punishment is taken seriously because of the fuss that Boro have kicked up about it. 

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

 

What Leicester got is irrelevant, the EFL will need to make sure any punishment is taken seriously because of the fuss that Boro have kicked up about it. 

So if Boro shout loud enough we could be kicked out of the EFL entirely. Interesting.

[Dr Who?]

6 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

 

What Leicester got is irrelevant, the EFL will need to make sure any punishment is taken seriously because of the fuss that Boro have kicked up about it. 

Not sure that’s how it works. 

[Disco Stu]

4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

 

What Leicester got is irrelevant, the EFL will need to make sure any punishment is taken seriously because of the fuss that Boro have kicked up about it. 

It isn't irrelevant. It's a clear example of a club gaining an unfair sporting advantage over several seasons which lead to automatic promotion. It's exactly the kind of thing we would include in an appeal.

[Saint_clark]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

So if Boro shout loud enough we could be kicked out of the EFL entirely. Interesting.

I said the punishment needed to be taken seriously, not that it needed to be as harsh as possible. 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

 

What Leicester got is irrelevant, the EFL will need to make sure any punishment is taken seriously because of the fuss that Boro have kicked up about it. 

Why not tell Grizzleborough to STFU.

[die Mannyschaft]

30 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's top 8 next year which would still be achievable. 

That's good. We can make that then 

[Saint_clark]

3 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Not sure that’s how it works. 

It kind of is. As has been pointed out from a legal stand point;

"In Derby v EFL (SR/017/2020) (Derby), an EFL disciplinary commission set out four purposes a sanction must serve:

 

1. Punishment of the club for the breach

2. Vindication for other clubs not engaged in conduct that breached the rules

3. Deterrence from future rule breaches, whether by the breaching club or other clubs

4. Restoration and preservation of public confidence in the fairness of EFL competitions.

The appeal board in Everton, when considering Derby, went on to clarify that punishment is far less important than maintaining the integrity of the competition and the sport of football, with deterrence being an important overlapping aim (paragraph 199)"

 

Point 4 is the key one here. They will want to make sure that any punishment isn't seen as a token one with us basically completely getting away with it. 

No, we're almost certainly not getting thrown out - although it is clear that they aren't ruling that option out - but it won't be just a fine or a token points deduction either, it will be a sporting sanction which is significant enough to act as a serious deterrent and satisfy outside observers that we've been punished accordingly.