Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Sheaf Saint]

6 minutes ago, saintant said:

So you believe the club wouldn't have used this in their defence if the spying at Oxford and Ipswich was outside the 72 hour limit? They admitted the charges ergo it must have happened inside the 72 hour limit.

Not necessarily. people need to get this "it's legal outside of 72 hours" idea out of their heads. Even outside of 72 hours, we're still guilty of the charge of failing to show respect to the other teams. But doing it inside 72 hours now brings the additional charge as well. 

As none of us has seen the panel's report yet, we don't know which of the two rules the charges for the Oxford and Ipswich games were brought in relation to. But the fact is that we have admitted to doing it, and demonstrated with the Boro incident that we didn't care about the 72 hour rule anyway.

[SaintsLoyal]

23 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Parsons simply cannot be left in charge after this debacle. 

How can he be trusted to handle anything? He's clearly a complete cretin who has actively made an already shit situation a hundred times worse. 

Presumably heads are going to roll and his should be first. He has to go, immediately. 

He should have been gone for appointing Lallana 'twice' after his treacherous behavior telling players to leave and then splashing prize PR disaster Le tissier all over the marketing and then giving him a wage for doing nothing.  Hes mate of Cockerills, things just dont add up.

Who was running the expenses for Will Salt ? It would stick out badly and anyone processing would need to raise it with senior management. 

[Cuddles]

Just now, Bobsmith said:

The days when we had a competent and ruthless chairman. Personally think our priority should be getting the final delayed so we can litigate this properly 

This.

Everyone is very angry at the moment, and there's lots of stories doing the rounds. None of this can be taken as factual yet and there's probably just as much bollocks doing the rounds now as there was prior to the EFL statement.

I want to know what Tonda wanted to say previously!!

[skintsaint]

[Saint-Reece]

genuinely cannot believe the new lows this club brings. Certainly shall not be season ticket next season. 
 

probably being over emotional atm, but I feel like this has broken my love for football. ☹️

[CanadaSaint]

11 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I've been confused about why we aren't allowed to go to CAS about this, don't they exist for purely this kind of oversight?

I don't think the EFL can set itself up to operate outside the regular UK legal system, but some of the legal minds on here can answer that. If they can't, the EFL has huge legal exposure, not just us.

[trousers]

49 minutes ago, TwoPints said:

So I have a thought about this apparent whistleblower. How long has he been at Boro then? 

It strikes me that he may have mentioned what he'd seen at Southampton long before the matches between the two teams. Why would they not?  So have Boro been sitting on this evidence hoping that it would be useful to them at a later date? And low and behold, they get us in the play offs and knowing about our antics, merely wait for our intern to turn up, catch them red handed and cry foul play in the hope that things turn our as they have.  

If this is what really happened then had they disclosed this knowledge earlier we'd likely have got our 4 point penalty this year, still been in the playoffs and beat Boro fair and square as we did.

This whole whistleblower thing strikes me as highly suspicious. I hope our legal types have pondered about this. 

Indeed. Several of us have been highlighting that this whole whistleblower thing could have been a long time in the making trap, but it wouldn't surprise me if our crack defence team haven't joined up the dots yet.... 

[washsaint]

Yes, Saints broke the rules and got caught.  If anyone thinks no other club does this you're mad: they are just not stupid enough to get caught.

Yes Saints deserved a fine but the penalty applied is absolutely ridiculous and without precedence.

Putting Boro in the final could/should open up a whole can of legal worms from the likes of Millwall and Wrexham.

Sainst should go for the jugular on this one.  The treatment meted out by the 'independent' panel is utterly ridiculous.

[Saint_clark]

Would love to be present at the training ground tomorrow when the players come in. 

[Draino76]

1 minute ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

Why can't we have nice things? 

We can't even pre-order these t-shirts anymore. 

[The Wyvern]

Just now, Colinjb said:

Considering the lows we have endured, administration, almost record breaking incompetence, those 9-0's, this feels worse.

The above were due, simply to ineptitude.

This is willful betrayal of sporting principle. Moral bankruptcy and absolute lunacy in the face of it.

Honestly, it's a sickening feeling. Didn't think it would be this visceral.

Signing off for the night. This is the darkest day as a supporter of the club. Instinctively, my reaction is to disown. I know I won't, my colours are set. But, this is just bleak, disgusting and putrid.

“Moral bankruptcy”?!? Ffs keep some perspective, they’ve royally fucked up and then managed the fall out dreadfully, but we’ve done nothing different to what many clubs around the world do.  It was clear we’d done something wrong 2 weeks ago, why this reaction now? 

[sfc4prem]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

Would love to be present at the training ground tomorrow when the players come in. 

Even if the miracle of being reinstated for the final happened, what the fuck has this whole thing done to morale and team spirit?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Aha! Our cunning strategy of being kicked out in 3 days rather than being kicked out in 14 defense, since Parsons fessed up to it all. >sigh<

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Yeah it's posturing at this point, no more than that. We're bang to rights now, more so than I ever believed we were. 

I don't remember the last time we were on the news at 10 on a weekday. What a time to be alive.

Yeah. It has that feel to it. 

Making tea, I've had to turn the radio away from 3 mentions of us this evening. No doubt there was plenty more of it. I'm sure we wanted to be famous, not infamous. 🙂 

 

1 hour ago, die Mannyschaft said:

The whole club is in on the scam. Exactly no word at all but happy to string the fans along. 

"Gosh! Too busy to check into SaintsWeb. I'll just check the official site to make sure everything's fine after the appeal. Yup. Tickets now on general sale. All good...

... hey! Is this a new shirt the club have released just for Wembley? It looks just like a Middle...oh....noes...." 🙂 

59 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

If that happens I'll get a tattoo of Parsons kissing Will Salt on my bumcheek. I think I'm safe.

You're always looking for something to go with that Parsons tattoo. 🙂 

54 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

Boro employed a top football lawyer as soon as this happened. They played it perfectly. We appear to be somewhat inept and run by cretins.

Please check you're predictive text. The word "appear" seems to be getting added into sentences. 🙂 

[Um Bongo]

Club are clearly waiting for the appeal tomorrow before putting anything out.

No acknowledgement for us, the fans, who yet again suffer at the hands of utter incompetence. 
 

Club have handled it horribly and the effects of this will last a long, long time. 

[BarberSaint]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

Also regards the photo, just tonight on the way home i shared a photo that made a female friend of mine have hairy legs and hobbit feet and also another friend have skinnier than normal legs so i could do leg day jokes.

I create meme photos daily so i wouldnt put too much store in a camo photo of salt

If anyone does, especially someone who apparently practises law, they're a fucking moron.

[SaintBobby]

4 minutes ago, Um Bongo said:

Club are clearly waiting for the appeal tomorrow before putting anything out.

No acknowledgement for us, the fans, who yet again suffer at the hands of utter incompetence. 
 

Club have handled it horribly and the effects of this will last a long, long time. 

Why? Why wait?

[saintant]

8 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

This.

Everyone is very angry at the moment, and there's lots of stories doing the rounds. None of this can be taken as factual yet and there's probably just as much bollocks doing the rounds now as there was prior to the EFL statement.

I want to know what Tonda wanted to say previously!!

Not sure that's relevant after he is reported to have admitted he didn't know the rules about watching other teams train.

[Gloucester Saint]

22 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I had a moment of thinking that I had my local team to still support.  @Gloucester Saint was having a similar path, I think, and probably others. But, for me, it was just a moment. That might change again, depending on what else comes out 🙂 

Fine up until 72 hours for EFL. Beyond that, clubs are considered to be fine to work on specific game tactics. Whether it's behind walls or on a playing field. Formerly bad form, but now could be 3 points per game/ forfeiting the game. Or, if in a play off, lose it automatically. Had that been in the rulebook, perhaps people would have adhered more to the fair play aspect. 

Enter Scott Marshall QC! 🙂 

 

 

If not exploring legal options, then certainly having a word with their agent. A possible 40% pay rise plus loads of bonuses and career opportunities gone. And the guy who may well be responsible (Tonda) is standing there trying to motivate you ahead of another season of it.

 

I’m very much on that path I’m afraid. I may watch a few Cheltenham Town games next season if I can bothered as there’s a feel good factor with Steve Cotterill, the local Lawrie, in charge and a new owner.

Mike Garlick is also a decent man. Won’t be SFC or the same feeling but I don’t know what that it any longer. 

This is final straw territory for me - it overlays the Bob Higgins scandal, SR and a succession of dreadful managers/football, Les Reed’s arrogance, and how friends and family who have worked at SFC were treated.

I see them like a golf club or a political party that’s gone off the rails long-term - as you say, let’s see what a new ownership can do and in a few years time I may look at them afresh with the current taint faded somewhat and SFC feeling less grubby than it does over the next couple of seasons. But the door is shut for a while.

Edited 3 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Pft, they fucked up, need to just let it go. Good luck with season ticket renewals. 

No way should we just let it go, punishment is completely disproportionate and should be challenged 

[saintant]

9 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Would love to be present at the training ground tomorrow when the players come in. 

Why would they be going to training? Our season is over.

[saintant]

9 minutes ago, Draino76 said:

We can't even pre-order these t-shirts anymore. 

Assume they've reduced the prices.

[Saint_clark]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I’m very much on that path I’m afraid. I may watch a few Cheltenham Town games next season if I can bothered as there’s a feel good factor with Steve Cotterill, the local Lawrie, in charge and a new owner.

Mike Garlick is also a decent man. Won’t be SFC or the same feeling but I don’t know what that it any longer. 

This is final straw territory for me - it overlays the Bob Higgins scandal, SR and a succession of dreadful managers/football, Les Reed’s arrogance, and how friends and family who have worked at SFC were treated.

I see them like a golf club or a political party that’s gone off the rails long-term - as you say, let’s see what a new ownership can do and in a few years time I may look afresh with the current taint faded somewhat and SFC feeling less grubby than it does over the next couple of seasons. 

I've had a season ticket at Dorchester last season and will be again next season. Much more enjoyable.

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

Why would they be going to training? Our season is over.

To demand answers from the club. 

[CanadaSaint]

13 minutes ago, saintant said:

So you believe the club wouldn't have used this in their defence if the spying at Oxford and Ipswich was outside the 72 hour limit? They admitted the charges ergo it must have happened inside the 72 hour limit.

I'm not sure what to believe any more, especially given our (what seems to have been) abysmal handling of this.

The whole public debate, especially in the media, has conveyed the false impression that there's only one kind of spying - the illegal kind. And the other angle is that two clubs can't just say we did it, or suspect that we did it. They should need to prove that we did it - at least if that's to become credible evidence. The alleged Oxford one was five months ago, so I'm not sure how that could have been proven. Perhaps it was the former analyst turned whistleblower, who now (I think) works for Boro, so that needs to be borne in mind. We don't know yet - maybe never will.

Perhaps you're right, that we did admit it despite a lack of proof, but that would have been yet another screw-up by us.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

 

42 minutes ago, Reggie Dunlop said:

Should Saints get reinstated to play in the final, who would actually want to go?

> Puts hand up in an instant. <

36 minutes ago, Divergent said:

Just out of curiosity- what does anyone think might happen next season if a club was stupid enough to be found guilty of spying within the 72 hours on 3 separate occasions during the normal season?
Points deduction and what other sanction?

What punishment would equal ours or would the fact that the reward for cheating would be so much less, as a play off leg is not involved, result in no other sanction at all?

Just trying to see what the EFL might think is equitable treatment  

 

 

 

 

Based on this...

Spied v Boro - punted out of playoff

Spied against 2 other clubs. 4 points deduction. I think 6, but -2 for our co-operation. So, following that, 2-3 points per game. 

At some point, they may just decide to relegate us, and void our matches. 

They have a new precedent set (appeal pending)
 

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

Indeed. Several of us have been highlighting that this whole whistleblower thing could have been a long time in the making trap, but it wouldn't surprise me if our crack defence team haven't joined up the dots yet.... 

Oh that's hard on them. They've only just got past their first glitter picture. joining the dots is months away... 🙂 

Edited 3 hours ago by Holmes_and_Watson

[BarberSaint]

32 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I agree with the Millwall fan here. Boro have no leg to stand on re deserving that slot in the final on sporting merit. 

I think in the circumstances (and always, otherwise) the team that finished third should get promoted. So Millwall should go up.

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

I've had a season ticket at Dorchester last season and will be again next season. Much more enjoyable.

To demand answers from the club. 

That'll probably be dealt with by their agents I'd have thought?

[Mboto Gorge]

18 minutes ago, washsaint said:

Yes, Saints broke the rules and got caught.  If anyone thinks no other club does this you're mad: they are just not stupid enough to get caught.

Yes Saints deserved a fine but the penalty applied is absolutely ridiculous and without precedence.

Putting Boro in the final could/should open up a whole can of legal worms from the likes of Millwall and Wrexham.

Sainst should go for the jugular on this one.  The treatment meted out by the 'independent' panel is utterly ridiculous.

Clearly wasn’t independent was it, Boro have dictated it from the off via Gibson and the media and clearly by their CEO who’s on the EFL board, hence the convenience of Boro being ridiculously reinstated. Everything Boro wanted has happened, it stinks. They wanted sporting sanctions and not fines, and guess what - we’ve had zero fine and the harshest of sporting sanctions while they swan into the play off final. Corrupt as fuck on that side of things when it comes to Boro basically dictating the terms of our punishment and their reintroduction.

independent panel my fucking arse

Edited 3 hours ago by Mboto Gorge

[Andy Hill]

How can we go for the jugular ??

[CanadaSaint]

20 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

people need to get this "it's legal outside of 72 hours" idea out of their heads. Even outside of 72 hours, we're still guilty of the charge of failing to show respect to the other teams. But doing it inside 72 hours now brings the additional charge as well.

Why does the legal side of "spying" become irrelevant to a pushback on a brutal punishment? It's not illegal, lots of other teams check out opposition training, and it's not illegal at all in the PL. So how can that constitute a failure to show respect for other teams?

[Micky]

46 minutes ago, Divergent said:

Just out of curiosity- what does anyone think might happen next season if a club was stupid enough to be found guilty of spying within the 72 hours on 3 separate occasions during the normal season?
Points deduction and what other sanction?

What punishment would equal ours or would the fact that the reward for cheating would be so much less, as a play off leg is not involved, result in no other sanction at all?

Just trying to see what the EFL might think is equitable treatment  

 

 

 

 

Firing squad...?

[Mboto Gorge]

17 minutes ago, Football Special said:

No way should we just let it go, punishment is completely disproportionate and should be challenged 

Surprised the hearing wasn’t held at the riverside stadium in gibsons office , may as well have been

[petermcpete]

1 hour ago, Cascadia Saint said:

I remember vividly how low and listless we all felt back in November as yet another SR gamble failed in Will Still.

And I remember thinking how it would take the club a long, long time to get us all back on side, and to produce a team we could truly get behind and feel proud of after the debacle of last season.

The fact that the club did JUST THAT, in the space of 6/7 months, and then have thrown it all in the fire is what pisses me off the most. We had something pretty special, or so I thought. 

I really feel for the players and us fans. The rest of the club can fuck right off if what we are starting to hear is true re: open knowledge of systematic cheating etc.

What makes it even worse, is that if we had finished mid-table, we'd have a far better chance of keeping this squad together than we do now. Truly the worst possible outcome.

[Andy Hill]

On what basis are we lodging an appeal ?? 

[Eire Saint]

12 minutes ago, Mboto Gorge said:

Clearly wasn’t independent was it, Boro have dictated it from the off via Gibson and the media and clearly by their CEO who’s on the EFL board, hence the convenience of Boro being ridiculously reinstated. Everything Boro wanted has happened, it stinks. They wanted sporting sanctions and not fines, and guess what - we’ve had zero fine and the harshest of sporting sanctions while they swan into the play off final. Corrupt as fuck on that side of things when it comes to Boro basically dictating the terms of our punishment and their reintroduction 

They're still doing it. This big dump of information to the press is to blow our appeal out of the water. The 4 point deduction feels like a buffer put on so that there could be a consession made on appeal. One of the biggest ever sporting sanctions in world football still seems massively disproportionate here.

Regardless of the outcome, feel sick to my stomach with this. After last season and the first half of this, to turn things around and get us all back believing again only for this outcome is just a horrendous feeling. Haven't felt like this since the Adminstration days. We could be back there, the lawsuits we've just opened ourselves up to could wipe us out again. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Eire Saint

[Saint_clark]

12 minutes ago, saintant said:

That'll probably be dealt with by their agents I'd have thought?

I'd imagine they'll be pissed off enough to want to demand answers in person.

[Football Special]

Just now, Mboto Gorge said:

Surprised the hearing wasn’t held at the riverside stadium in gibsons office , may as well have been

Agree, corruption is clear 

[Football Special]

1 minute ago, Andy Hill said:

On what basis are we lodging an appeal ?? 

Punishment is disproportionate to the offence 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

14 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I’m very much on that path I’m afraid. I may watch a few Cheltenham Town games next season if I can bothered as there’s a feel good factor with Steve Cotterill, the local Lawrie, in charge and a new owner.

Mike Garlick is also a decent man. Won’t be SFC or the same feeling but I don’t know what that it any longer. 

This is final straw territory for me - it overlays the Bob Higgins scandal, SR and a succession of dreadful managers/football, Les Reed’s arrogance, and how friends and family who have worked at SFC were treated.

I see them like a golf club or a political party that’s gone off the rails long-term - as you say, let’s see what a new ownership can do and in a few years time I may look at them afresh with the current taint faded somewhat and SFC feeling less grubby than it does over the next couple of seasons. But the door is shut for a while.

I certainly enjoy the community connection with a smaller, local side. 

I had a post ready when someone mentioned Saville, earlier. As serious as this is, that was far worse. And I'm still here now. So, I guess I'll still be supporting going forward. That doesn't mean that, depending on the report, anyone in the current structure should still be here. 

@S-Clarke posted some detail of the mood darkening at 'boro, when Parsons fessed up. Unless Dragan has chatted to him and said "here's what I want you to say" then he's out the door. naive to the point of incompetnece and beyond in any competitive industry. 

Still processing it a bit. So, I'll see what comes out. It's certainly changed how I see myself as a supporter, and how I can express views on some subjects. 

[Mboto Gorge]

Just now, Football Special said:

Agree, corruption is clear 

The fact we’ve had no fine at all and purely sporting sanctions, coincidentally precisely what Boro demanded, along with their bizarre reinstatement, again what they demanded, along with their media pushing antics all week long. It’s just absolutely ridiculous that we’ve been able to get played like this . The club have been fucking idiots yes and are hugely to blame, but let’s not pretend this decision js anything other than the harshest sporting punishment in living memory and clear corruption and favouritism to “Gibbo” and his cronies at Boro. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

21 minutes ago, saintant said:

Why would they be going to training? Our season is over.

The club referred them to the website for updates. They don't know yet. 🙂 

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Football Special said:

Punishment is disproportionate to the offence 

Yep the club are arguing the expulsion is extreme for the crime. I can't see it making a blind bit of difference though. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, SNSUN said:

Yep the club are arguing the expulsion is extreme for the crime. I can't see it making a blind bit of difference though. 

It absolutley is extreme, but when the evidence stacks up against you there really isn't much to appeal against.

You have to try, it's the default response. But believing anything would be reversed is daft. Although I thought us being removed would be daft, so who the fuck knows after this evening.

[Football Special]

1 minute ago, SNSUN said:

Yep the club are arguing the expulsion is extreme for the crime. I can't see it making a blind bit of difference though. 

Its quite a jump from Leeds 200k fine for basically doing the same thing 

[trousers]

15 minutes ago, Mboto Gorge said:

They wanted sporting sanctions and not fines, and guess what - we’ve had zero fine and the harshest of sporting sanctions

Reading that, it's only just hit me that we haven't been fined at all. (If you don't count the potential loss of premier league revenue as a fine, per se). Isn't that a tad odd? It's almost as if the punishments have been contrived to match the EFL's desired outcome....

[trousers]

17 minutes ago, Andy Hill said:

How can we go for the jugular ??

Get a ticket for the circus?

 

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Legoman]

For days I’d hoped naively that the silence from the club was due to professionalism and we had an ace up our sleeve in comparison to the noise coming from Boro, instead the silence was incompetence 

[S-Clarke]

 

I don't buy this as a reason for them to be unhappy, if we lost on Saturday there would be the same outcome - ditto if we didn't make the Top 6. This bit feels like nonsense.

 

[The Wyvern]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Reading that, it's only just hit me that we haven't been fined at all. (If you don't count the potential loss of premier league revenue as a fine, per se). Isn't that a tad odd? It's almost as if the punishments have been contrived to match the EFL's desired outcome....

As stated above the punishment has matched exactly with what Middlesbrough asked for from the very start. That has to be pretty rare in such circumstances surely? Some coincidence that. Not a penny fined. 

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

Reading that, it's only just hit me that we haven't been fined at all. (If you don't count the potential loss of premier league revenue as a fine, per se). Isn't that a tad odd? It's almost as if the punishments have been contrived to match the EFL's desired outcome....

They probably saw the lack of £250m as a big enough financial penalty, I'm glad they went easy on us.

In all seriousness, they should have just given us a big fine. And then every single moron involved in this should have paid it out of their own pockets.

[hippo]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

Reading that, it's only just hit me that we haven't been fined at all. (If you don't count the potential loss of premier league revenue as a fine, per se). Isn't that a tad odd? It's almost as if the punishments have been contrived to match the EFL's desired outcome....

I can see it now. Parsons in court, representing Saints as lead counsel, donning a white wig (no one asked him to).

 

“But your honour, I must probe why Southampton Football Club haven’t received a fine for their offence, and only sporting sanctions.”
 

Updated verdict on appeal:

- Dismissal: upheld 

- Points deduction: upheld 

- Further punishment: £2 million fine.