Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Patrick Bateman]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

This player is the ONE player Saints should make sure is here next season for a new challenge - his dressing room influence and organisation of a defence were huge for us, not to mention ability to stop goals.

Okay 2 players, Larin. I think Real Mallorca are probably in more financial peril than most other clubs, so get it done Saints, make it up to us ... 

 

[spyinthesky]

Being a Saints fan for many, many years, I have experienced quite a few ups and downs.
The downs have generally dominated but only served to make the occasional ups even more enjoyable.
Playing so well at the end of the season, beating Fulham and Arsenal and going toe to toe with Man City in front of a magnificent band of supporters, looking forward to another shot at the Premier League at Wembley on Saturday and gaining the respect of a lot of neutrals, made me extra proud to be a Saints fan.
I also thought that with a few new players, we could replicate Sunderland and Leeds performances in the Prem.
Having reached that level of pride and expectation, it came as a massive shock to tumble back down to a feeling of despair, allied to a sense of aggrievement that the punishment did in no way fit the 'crime'.
As someone on this forum has said, it is like parking your car on a double yellow line, paying the fine, and then losing your driving licence for a year or two.
Like many on here I went through the turmoil of the Branfoot and Rupert Lowe eras and the club eventually moved forward.
These things take time and I am at an age when I dont expect the good times to return in my lifetime.
I sincerely hope the younger supporters do have the opportunity to once again experience the joy of feeling on top of the world supporting the Saints.
I will renew my season ticket next year but expect to see quite a few empty seats as a consequence of this affair.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This player is the ONE player Saints should make sure is here next season for a new challenge - his dressing room influence and organisation of a defence were huge for us, not to mention ability to stop goals.

Okay 2 players, Larin. I think Real Mallorca are probably in more financial peril than most other clubs, so get it done Saints, make it up to us ... 

 

😎

 

[Farmer Saint]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They got a points deduction and are now in League 1, as did Sheff Weds.

 

You don't think that's maybe quite an important difference?

But they were allowed into the Premier League and didn't lose that money. They should have been fined the money they earnt unfairly.

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Borson and Jordan...

Basically, Boro did everything they could for the cub/company as Southampton own stupidity left the door wide open

Both agree that the sporting advantage must have been pretty small, regardless of people stamping their feet, and that how strange that opinion changed from Bielsa being sort of accepted when he did it to every club (and a much bigger sporting advantage) to crucifying SFC and Eckert. 

Ultimately, our own stupidity gave an 'in' for this to happen and there we are.

Yep that's pretty much it, both very balanced in their views I found. It isn't proportionate, but we gave them an opportunity to take us to the cleaners by being so stupid during the event (stupid enough to be caught), and then so, so stupid with how we handled the fall out.

Boro have piled on, of course they have, but our inexperience and amateurish nature around all of this has allowed that to happen.

[spyinthesky]

1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This player is the ONE player Saints should make sure is here next season for a new challenge - his dressing room influence and organisation of a defence were huge for us, not to mention ability to stop goals.

Okay 2 players, Larin. I think Real Mallorca are probably in more financial peril than most other clubs, so get it done Saints, make it up to us ... 

 

No way will Perez be here next season.
He will have a queue of clubs both here and in Germany willing to pay decent money both in transfer and wages to sign him up.
I put him in the same category as Shilton and Niemi in all the time I have watched Saints.
He will be sorely missed.

[TheSoundman]

16 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

Boro stitched us up properly here. The whistleblower told them we'd be sending someone, it's obvious by how orchestrated this was. They had their info that we'd been doing this for a while. The angle of the photo they got of Salt was from a different direction than their training facility, so a photographer in situ. Got their photo before anyone approached him. 

The staff would've got a heads up, so zero chance any information or advantage would've been got. They then had the victim card ready to play. Media outrage, manager tears. A second chance card if they didn't beat us. They set a trap and their plan worked perfectly. 

In saying that what we have been doing was wrong and we've been so unbelievably stupid and naive. Punishment was disproportinate, but we did this to ourselves. 

If expulsion was to be our punishment, then either Boro should've faced Milwall for a shot at wembley, or Hull given promotion. Boro getting rewarded here is ridiculous. 

The thing that is so gutting is that it feels like such a sliding doors moment, a win on Saturday, we keep most of the players who got us there and despite this I still think Tonda is a manager who could've kept us in the prem. It's just a sickening feeling. We're staring into abyss again as a club. 

This... totally.

Saints did wrong, no question. If it's being treated as a cup comp and we get kicked out, feels harsh but so-be-it.

What is completely wrong is Boro going through. The first half at the Riverside proves there was no advantage gained and in a holier-than-thou world, a decent owner should have put his hands up and acknowledge that they lost on the pitch, and that was fair and square - the whole world can see that. Hull should go through.

But Gibson is as scummy as the rest and his clubs behaviour is bent too.

His is equally a case of 'it's about getting the result, it doesn't have to be fairly achieved.'

I hope Hull slaughter them in the final but if they don't, I'll be supporting every team that plays against Boro next year.

Edited 1 hour ago by TheSoundman

[rallyboy]

Now it's over I'd be curious to see any contact between Middlesborough staff and their former analyst as well as all messages between Gibson and the EFL board - Middlesborough being rewarded does not pass the sniff test... 

37,000 Freedom of Information requests would slow them down.

[Graffito]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

If you cheat, you don't get to keep your winnings. It's that simple.

So what about the clubs that have cheated whilst winning multiple competitions yet have been allowed to keep their titles? That simple eh?

[saintant]

34 minutes ago, CylonKing said:

If not aware of the rule, why send someone in disguise?

Maybe it was Mufti day.

[Paul_B]

53 minutes ago, manji said:

I have no agenda with this but getting rid of Tonda , Sports Republic etc at this time would be insane. Can no one remember the trouble we had before ? Years of chaos ,wasted opportunity we were blessed by Markus Leiber. 
im aware of previous transfer windows but the last one turned out alright. Promotion season was a fuck up at the start we should have pissed automatics. The same as this season chaos at the beginning again we could have pissed the automatics. 
This is my club frankly I don’t give a fuck about the morality. Draw a line under this and reboot as quickly as possible.

I don't disagree with this notion. I do however think that Dragan needs to grab this by the bollocks, get rid of the likes of Parsons, Ankerson etc and get someone in who can actually use his money wisely! Probably keep Spors. Keep Tonda. Rebuild. Unfortunately I think the power will be taken out of our hands on this by the FA.

And everyone needs to get off their high horse about us being cheats/a disgrace/scum/the worst of the worst etc etc like we are the only fucking ones who do it! Stop being so naive/dim. We are not the only ones! We just happen to have been the ones getting caught. Guarantee there are lots of staff in many clubs scurrying around right now getting rid of emails/messages and what have you. Breathing big sighs of relief because they haven't been caught. 

Unfortunately and completely fucking wrongly in my opinion, we have been made an example of to send a message that this sort of practice needs to stop (or at least be more fucking creative in your spying techniques!), and as a result I fear the club is going to be decimated and it's going to be a shit several years for us.

[coalman]

1 minute ago, rallyboy said:

Now it's over I'd be curious to see any contact between Middlesborough staff and their former analyst as well as all messages between Gibson and the EFL board - Middlesborough being rewarded does not pass the sniff test... 

37,000 Freedom of Information requests would slow them down.

The Freedom of Information Act covers public bodies. So I imagine they'd just ignore all of them.

[saintant]

28 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

As have Middlesbrough.  This Taylor fellow is the key to this affair.  Joins us from Middlesbrough and leaves two months later. Then produces the evidence that scuppers our case. Doesn't attention the hearing in person, only submits 'written evidence'.

Stinks like a Teesside kipper.

Yeah, I don't believe in coincidences. Not sure how thoroughly this aspect was investigated.

[LegalEagle]

2 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Now it's over I'd be curious to see any contact between Middlesborough staff and their former analyst as well as all messages between Gibson and the EFL board - Middlesborough being rewarded does not pass the sniff test... 

37,000 Freedom of Information requests would slow them down.

I’m on it

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, bpsaint said:

I guess their argument will be that we could have lost the playoff final, and thus would have escaped punishment essentially.

Fair comment, but they could have rescinded the 4 point ban on appeal given the actual expulsion.

[Miltonaggro]

16 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

This is an excellent reflection of the realities of the situation - very well said SOG. 

The more I reflect on what’s happened the more I thoroughly believe the club needs to act quickly and decisively to dress the wound. To not do so risks the entire club structure collapsing in on itself in a spiral of self-harm. That will likely mean the sacking of one or more scapegoats, but that should be it…the club (Dragan) protects and nurtures all other assets including playing staff (who should get their % salary cut re-instated). Despite Boro’s antics. Despite the EFL, its sham board and the obvious cheating that exists at all levels of the game. 

All this talk about sacking everyone is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Circle the wagons…take a deep breath and let’s fucking show ‘em we’re worthy of promotion the hard way. The alternative is further capitulation to an unjust punishment and the potential demise of our wonderful club.

Very good thoughtful post SFCam.  Emotions are running so high last few days, and despite differences of opinion in terms of reaction within fanbase, we all want to come out of this fighting - let's hope Dragan Solak feels the same. Up the fucking Saints!

[trousers]

28 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The very fact he had a change of clothes ready strongly suggests that he knew damn well he wasn't supposed to be there.

Most probably, but as I say, there's a difference between going incognito (simply because you don't want the other club to know that you're there) and knowingly breaking the '72 hour' rule. It's conceivable that you could still want to do the former without knowing the latter...

Possibly / Maybe / Who knows?

Edited 1 hour ago by trousers

[23rdSaint]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Fair comment, but they could have rescinded the 4 point ban on appeal given the actual expulsion.

2 points per game we admitted to spying on in the league (Oxford and Ipswich), which becomes the precedent moving forwards. 

[saintant]

19 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

This is an excellent reflection of the realities of the situation - very well said SOG. 

The more I reflect on what’s happened the more I thoroughly believe the club needs to act quickly and decisively to dress the wound. To not do so risks the entire club structure collapsing in on itself in a spiral of self-harm. That will likely mean the sacking of one or more scapegoats, but that should be it…the club (Dragan) protects and nurtures all other assets including playing staff (who should get their % salary cut re-instated). Despite Boro’s antics. Despite the EFL, its sham board and the obvious cheating that exists at all levels of the game. 

All this talk about sacking everyone is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Circle the wagons…take a deep breath and let’s fucking show ‘em we’re worthy of promotion the hard way. The alternative is further capitulation to an unjust punishment and the potential demise of our wonderful club.

Agree. All the charges on City and have they ever once considered sacking Pep? No because it's not about integrity it's about keeping hold of the goose that lays the golden eggs.

[Sheaf Saint]

5 minutes ago, Graffito said:

So what about the clubs that have cheated whilst winning multiple competitions yet have been allowed to keep their titles? That simple eh?

They have savvy owners and good lawyers who know exactly how to get away with these things. Whereas we're run by the fucking chuckle brothers.

[benjii]

46 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Should have been 8am.

I ain't gettin up no 7am for boring meeting fam (said a player).

[TheSoundman]

2 minutes ago, 23rdSaint said:

2 points per game we admitted to spying on in the league (Oxford and Ipswich), which becomes the precedent moving forwards. 

Let's hope that another 10 cases don't come to light later then....

[benjii]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This player is the ONE player Saints should make sure is here next season for a new challenge - his dressing room influence and organisation of a defence were huge for us, not to mention ability to stop goals.

Okay 2 players, Larin. I think Real Mallorca are probably in more financial peril than most other clubs, so get it done Saints, make it up to us ... 

 

Why would he want to play for a club that just wasted a year of his career?

[Football Special]

22 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

Boro stitched us up properly here. The whistleblower told them we'd be sending someone, it's obvious by how orchestrated this was. They had their info that we'd been doing this for a while. The angle of the photo they got of Salt was from a different direction than their training facility, so a photographer in situ. Got their photo before anyone approached him. 

The staff would've got a heads up, so zero chance any information or advantage would've been got. They then had the victim card ready to play. Media outrage, manager tears. A second chance card if they didn't beat us. They set a trap and their plan worked perfectly. 

In saying that what we have been doing was wrong and we've been so unbelievably stupid and naive. Punishment was disproportinate, but we did this to ourselves. 

If expulsion was to be our punishment, then either Boro should've faced Milwall for a shot at wembley, or Hull given promotion. Boro getting rewarded here is ridiculous. 

The thing that is so gutting is that it feels like such a sliding doors moment, a win on Saturday, we keep most of the players who got us there and despite this I still think Tonda is a manager who could've kept us in the prem. It's just a sickening feeling. We're staring into abyss again as a club. 

Sums it up, great post 

[Miltonaggro]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

I ain't gettin up no 7am for boring meeting fam (said a player).

Word! It's probably against our human rights and that, isn't it...

[trousers]

24 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Bit different refunding a few dozen tickets to 37000 odd in one go.

A ticketing computer system doesn't care about the numbers... It should effectively be just one or two presses of a button regardless...there's a good reason why companies make out refunds take longer than they need to... 

Edited 1 hour ago by trousers

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

Boro stitched us up properly here. The whistleblower told them we'd be sending someone, it's obvious by how orchestrated this was. They had their info that we'd been doing this for a while. The angle of the photo they got of Salt was from a different direction than their training facility, so a photographer in situ. Got their photo before anyone approached him. 

The staff would've got a heads up, so zero chance any information or advantage would've been got. They then had the victim card ready to play. Media outrage, manager tears. A second chance card if they didn't beat us. They set a trap and their plan worked perfectly. 

In saying that what we have been doing was wrong and we've been so unbelievably stupid and naive. Punishment was disproportinate, but we did this to ourselves. 

If expulsion was to be our punishment, then either Boro should've faced Milwall for a shot at wembley, or Hull given promotion. Boro getting rewarded here is ridiculous. 

The thing that is so gutting is that it feels like such a sliding doors moment, a win on Saturday, we keep most of the players who got us there and despite this I still think Tonda is a manager who could've kept us in the prem. It's just a sickening feeling. We're staring into abyss again as a club. 

Yep... Nail... Head... Etc... 👍🏻

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, 23rdSaint said:

2 points per game we admitted to spying on in the league (Oxford and Ipswich), which becomes the precedent moving forwards. 

So we get a two point fine each for spying against rivals but chucked out of the play off final for a bloke appearing from behind a tree with an iPhone up to a quarter of a mile away from any possible action?

So maybe a 6 point deduction (applicable in the EFL) would have been proportionate? 

[sadoldgit]

5 minutes ago, benjii said:

Why would he want to play for a club that just wasted a year of his career?

Why not? New season, new start?

[revolution saint]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

Why would he want to play for a club that just wasted a year of his career?

Presume you're talking about Peretz but equally could apply to Larin.  Neither have wasted a year of their career (for one both only came in January) but they joined on loan to revive their careers when they weren't getting any game time.  Both have undoubtedly done that so the loan moves have been unqualified successes.  Peretz will almost certainly have better options and probably Larin too.  If they don't rejoin then it won't be because of spying.

[trousers]

28 minutes ago, vectraman said:

I cannot for a moment believe that nobody on the playing/coaching staff would have not known that you can’t spy on the opposition team 72 hours before you play them.
If anybody genuinely thinks the manager ‘didn’t know’ and that nobody at the club had said “we shouldn’t be doing this” to him then that is naivety of the highest order.

Tonda must have known, coaching staff must have known, they chose to keep doing it because they didn’t think they would get caught.

Quite honestly it was so amateurish and obvious that it beggars belief we hadn’t been caught before. Surely they could have given the lad camera glasses which would not be obvious at all.  The whole sorry episode sums up the pathetic mess we now find ourselves in.

Embarrassing, amateur, tin pot, naive, pathetic, disappointing, unprofessional.

Take your pick I’d say all the above cover it.

Some might say the fact that it was amateurish actually backs up the theory that Tonda was oblivious to the rules. In other words, surely, if he knew he was breaking the rules he'd have made sure we did it much better than we did...?

[sadoldgit]

7 minutes ago, TheSoundman said:

Let's hope that another 10 cases don't come to light later then....

I do wonder how many times it occurred. If it really was only three times that makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I do wonder how many times it occurred. If it really was only three times that makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.

If anyone genuinely believes these were the only three instances, and not just the only ones for which there was evidence that we couldn't refute, then I've got some magic beans to sell them.

[23rdSaint]

10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So we get a two point fine each for spying against rivals but chucked out of the play off final for a bloke appearing from behind a tree with an iPhone up to a quarter of a mile away from any possible action?

So maybe a 6 point deduction (applicable in the EFL) would have been proportionate? 

I have no knowledge of why they've come to the decision but I would assume the EFL's rationale is that the play-offs is a separate competition (i.e. knockouts), so we forfeit our position for spying ahead of the 1st leg. 

Edited 1 hour ago by 23rdSaint
Auto-correct

[LGTL]

26 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Yep that's pretty much it, both very balanced in their views I found. It isn't proportionate, but we gave them an opportunity to take us to the cleaners by being so stupid during the event (stupid enough to be caught), and then so, so stupid with how we handled the fall out.

Boro have piled on, of course they have, but our inexperience and amateurish nature around all of this has allowed that to happen.

Spot on. Now the dust has settled, it’s clear to see that Boro saw a way of winning promotion regardless of winning the semi-final, and we came along and fell right in to the trap by our own cuntish actions. 

They’ve done us lube free and we’ve only ourselves to blame. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LGTL

[23rdSaint]

13 minutes ago, TheSoundman said:

Let's hope that another 10 cases don't come to light later then....

I saw reports of clubs aware that it happened to them but they considered the case closed. If they have proof and they see what the punishment is, you've got to imagine they'd consider it...

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, 23rdSaint said:

I have no knowledge of why they've come to the decision but I would assume the EFL's rationale is that the play-offs is a separate completion (i.e. knockouts), so we forfeit our position for spying ahead of the 1st leg. 

Yeah, maybe. I guess they will make their reasoning public at some time in the future.

[Osvaldorama]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I do wonder how many times it occurred. If it really was only three times that makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.

It will have been all season. No way it’s just the three. 
 

But as everyone says, I bet everyone does it. Boro just used it. 

[pingpong]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

If anyone genuinely believes these were the only three instances, and not just the only ones for which there was evidence that we couldn't refute, then I've got some magic beans to sell them.

There aren't that many clubs you can do it to.  No-one has spied on saints for example, because staplewood is a secure site.

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

If anyone genuinely believes these were the only three instances, and not just the only ones for which there was evidence that we couldn't refute, then I've got some magic beans to sell them.

Yep, and this would be one of my concerns about Tonda staying on... Every f***ing press conference would be: "So Tonda, did you cheat against <insert club we're playing> last season? "

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, pingpong said:

There aren't that many clubs you can do it to.  No-one has spied on saints for example, because staplewood is a secure site.

We can do it to clubs when they are away and are training at Eastleigh (for example)

[Sheaf Saint]

4 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Spot on. Now the dust has settled, it’s clear to see that Boro saw a way of winning promotion regardless of winning the semi-final, and we came along and fell right in to the trap by our own cuntish actions. 

They’ve done us lube free and we’ve only ourselves to blame. 

This is the sad reality of it I think.

Shafted by our own naivety.

[warsash saint]

20 minutes ago, TheSoundman said:

Let's hope that another 10 cases don't come to light later then....

They probably won't because the other 10 clubs are spying themselves - don't be native to think we are the only ones up to it!!

[Saint Fan CaM]

2 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

It will have been all season. No way it’s just the three. 
 

But as everyone says, I bet everyone does it. Boro just used it. 

Yes that’s likely true, but don’t you think it’s strange that the two clubs presented to the panel were the two clubs definitely not in the Championship next season? I suspect there’s other clubs who are somewhat nervous revealing their hand and exposing their own weaknesses in terms of gaining competitor advantage (I’d bet on there being other ‘interesting’ practices in the profession we’re not aware of).

[Saint86]

37 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This player is the ONE player Saints should make sure is here next season for a new challenge - his dressing room influence and organisation of a defence were huge for us, not to mention ability to stop goals.

Okay 2 players, Larin. I think Real Mallorca are probably in more financial peril than most other clubs, so get it done Saints, make it up to us ... 

 

The NO.1 signing this summer should be Peretz - if there is any way/shape/form its possible, the club should do everything they can to make it happen. He has won us more points than any other player IMO.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yes that’s likely true, but don’t you think it’s strange that the two clubs presented to the panel were the two clubs definitely not in the Championship next season? I suspect there’s other clubs who are somewhat nervous revealing their hand and exposing their own weaknesses in terms of gaining competitor advantage (I’d bet on there being other ‘interesting’ practices in the profession we’re not aware of).

Oxford will still be in the EFL next season, just not in the Championship. So I expect it's more likely that these were just the only ones there was compelling evidence for and it's just coincidence that neither of them will be in the same league next season.

[23rdSaint]

1 minute ago, Saint86 said:

The NO.1 signing this summer should be Peretz - if there is any way/shape/form its possible, the club should do everything they can to make it happen. He has won us more points than any other player IMO.

Sorry to piss on your chips

 

[Saint NL]

It's also very coincidental that the two other clubs we were caught spying on won't be in the championship next season. 

[RedArmy]

46 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

Boro stitched us up properly here. The whistleblower told them we'd be sending someone, it's obvious by how orchestrated this was. They had their info that we'd been doing this for a while. The angle of the photo they got of Salt was from a different direction than their training facility, so a photographer in situ. Got their photo before anyone approached him. 

The staff would've got a heads up, so zero chance any information or advantage would've been got. They then had the victim card ready to play. Media outrage, manager tears. A second chance card if they didn't beat us. They set a trap and their plan worked perfectly. 

In saying that what we have been doing was wrong and we've been so unbelievably stupid and naive. Punishment was disproportinate, but we did this to ourselves. 

If expulsion was to be our punishment, then either Boro should've faced Milwall for a shot at wembley, or Hull given promotion. Boro getting rewarded here is ridiculous. 

The thing that is so gutting is that it feels like such a sliding doors moment, a win on Saturday, we keep most of the players who got us there and despite this I still think Tonda is a manager who could've kept us in the prem. It's just a sickening feeling. We're staring into abyss again as a club. 

Bang on. 
 

And I also have huge doubts about how Salt made seemingly no attempt be even slightly covert, just practically stood in the open. 
 

Considering the lengths they went to for Ipswich at Eastleigh I find it very suspicious that after 6+ months experience he was THAT bad at making sure he’s not seen or caught. 

 

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, 23rdSaint said:

Sorry to piss on your chips

 

Don’t players just return to their home clubs at the end of a loan period? If we have an option to buy that happens after they return?

Clutching at straws.