Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Osvaldorama]

40 minutes ago, Thripp87 said:

And still radio silence from Solak.

I am starting to think the next update we will get is the marvellous news that season tickets have been frozen.

Absolutely incredible the PR currently. 

Yeah I can’t believe they’ve said so little. Pretty absurd way to treat the fan base. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

Yeah I can’t believe they’ve said so little. Pretty absurd way to treat the fan base. 

Most of this are imaging tense and frank discussions in locked rooms between those who no run the club. Forming an off ramp strategy from now until the summer, whilst planning for another promotion push.

then again, many of us assumed the radio silence during the proceedings was part of a professional and clever way of handling it all.

 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

 

Can't they just wait a season?

#outtacontroloptimism

[The Wyvern]

Just now, trousers said:

 

 

I'm no lawyer, but I can't see a legal argument there whatsoever.  If we hadn't been negligent we would have played a game that would have given us a chance of promotion. I can't see that carrying much weight. 

[Soton7]

The EFL, Boro and the independent panel lawyers must’ve chuckled to themselves when our legal team pulled up. We agreed for the hearing to be carried out remotely ffs! Our briefs probably had their cameras off when giving our side.

Whilst they had the juggernauts, we had the totally opposite, orchestrated by Parsons.

From the outset we needed strong leaders, clear communication and a robust strategy in place to show the whole world who is the boss.

The approach should have been to get the analysts on our side, no comment to any interviews, push media statements, calling  out those who called for our head, don’t cooperate with the tight timescales, demand an in person hearing, call for full disclosures, threats of injunctions and importantly, keep the players informed. 

Instead, we crumbled. We let the panel make the easiest decision of their lives.

 

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Important news on the Southampton FC website: https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/take-that-at-st-marys-everything-you-need-to-know

 

SERIOUSLY? Fuck off. 

[UpweySaint]

Truly I understand some of the strong opinions on here but I’m still wanting to hear more from the club as I don’t think the whole thing is as binary as it’s being made out.

I had a long drive for work today and caught up with the Guardian Football Weekly and the Euro Leagues. A couple of salient points came up. Cheating happens a lot in football. If you dive to win a penalty and don’t get caught during the game the result doesn’t get rescinded. Another example was given of sneaking a look at tactical instructions handed onto the pitch during a game in an attempt to gain a tactical advantage. Teams don’t get kicked out of competitions. Panelists (some - not all) did speculate that this was something much more tangible than say in game chicanery or financial clever bollocks that the EFL could be seen to come down hard on for once. 
 

Spying on training is also fairly common place in German football and is largely shrugged off. Klopp once instructed Terzic to spy on Madrid ahead of a champions league game for example. Nagelsman responded to spying with a “so what? Nothing to hide”. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder what Tonda’s understanding of the rules and norms were at the point he directed analysts to spy.

I’m not condoning what we have done and we should have been punished but I do think some of the hand wringing and grand standing has been OTT. We tried to gain a sporting advantage and broke a rule (knowingly or not) and we’re bang to rights but let’s not pretend this is something much more heinous and repugnant. There are plenty of things that would make me genuinely ashamed of my football club - a quick sideways glance at Marseille - but watching another team train doesn’t evoke the same level of feeling for me as it evidently does for others. Others, who I should add, are entitled to their opinions and I respect their strength of feeling.

 

[Maggie May]

1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Important news on the Southampton FC website: https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/take-that-at-st-marys-everything-you-need-to-know

 

SERIOUSLY? Fuck off. 

Well, after the past few days, the club's really set the Barlow. 

[beatlesaint]

11 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Can't they just wait a season?

#outtacontroloptimism

That’s bullshit. Had we played and won the final tomorrow then got chucked out fair enough but there’s no guarantee we would have beaten Hull.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Important news on the Southampton FC website: https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/take-that-at-st-marys-everything-you-need-to-know

 

SERIOUSLY? Fuck off. 

Take That Southampton fans. 

Quite appropriate.

 

[trousers]

A member of the independent disciplinary commission that expelled Saints from the Championship play-offs has dismissed claims of bias.

David Winnie addressed some social media commentary, stemming from his brief spell playing for Middlesbrough more than three decades ago.

Winnie, a former footballer turned solicitor, made a single appearance for Boro 33 years ago, and was one of three panel members on Tuesday.

Saints were ruled out of the play-offs after the club was found to have spied on a Boro training session before the first leg of their semi-final.

On Friday, Winnie told PA: "The suggestion that a single appearance for Middlesbrough Football Club more than three decades ago could in any way influence my judgment as a member of an independent disciplinary commission is wholly without foundation.

"My involvement with the club consisted of one professional appearance approximately 33 years ago and has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to approach these proceedings impartially and objectively.

"As with all commission members, my duty was to consider only the evidence, the applicable EFL regulations, and the submissions advanced by the parties.

"The decision reached was unanimous and followed detailed legal argument, documentary evidence, witness testimony and careful deliberation by an experienced independent panel.

"At no stage was any issue raised by either party regarding my independence or suitability to sit on the commission.

"Had there been any legitimate basis for concern, the appropriate procedures existed for that to be addressed before the hearing proceeded.

"Professional integrity in these proceedings is paramount. My role was to uphold the integrity of the competition and apply the regulations fairly, without fear or favour, and that is precisely what the commission did."

It has also been raised that the law firm of another panellist, Lydia Banerjee, Littleton Chambers, was in 2018 contracted by Middlesbrough to represent them in cases relating to Garry Monk's dismissal and a contractual claim.

Records show barristers from Littleton Chambers represented both sides of the dispute across two cases, while Banerjee appears to have no direct link. There is no suggestion of wrongdoing.

With respect to the composition of the independent disciplinary commission, panel members are appointed by an external body - Sport Resolutions.

Guidance to panel members covers when matters may constitute a conflict, with only work or other links in the past three years ordinarily considered.

All parties - the EFL and Saints - were deemed to know the matters and had an opportunity to raise objections to the panel members, without doing so.

The EFL declined to comment on the matter. Saints have been approached.

Other observations related to the charge noted Middlesbrough chairman Neil Bausor's position on the EFL's board of directors since July 2021.

Bausor did not attend board briefings on the matter, nor did he receive any papers issued. He was also not involved in any of the proceedings.

This is standard practice in respect of conflicts of interest.

The commission found Saints head coach Tonda Eckert authorised spying at Boro, and earlier visits to training sessions held by Oxford and Ipswich.

The commission said it was “particularly deplorable” that junior staff were delegated to carry out the observations, with the intern caught at Boro’s training session telling the commission he felt pressured to do it.

Winnie, the partner and head of sports at Gilson Gray LLP, acknowledged that the commission’s decision would have “serious ramifications” across football, but added: “The commission’s duty was not to consider popularity, reputation or consequence in isolation, but to uphold the integrity of the competition and apply the regulations fairly, independently and without fear or favour.

“The commission unanimously concluded that the conduct in question represented a deliberate and organised attempt to obtain a competitive advantage in breach of fundamental principles of sporting integrity and good faith.

“Football depends upon public trust. Supporters, clubs, players and stakeholders must have confidence that competitions are conducted on a level playing field.

“This outcome reflects the seriousness with which the commission viewed repeated breaches of the regulations, particularly within the context of one of the most financially and competitively significant competitions in English football. The message is clear: cheating, in any form, has no place in the game and will not be tolerated.

“Whilst the sanctions imposed are severe, the commission considered them necessary, proportionate and essential to protect the integrity and credibility of English football moving forward.”

 

Edited 45 minutes ago by trousers

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

No objection? He should have recused himself. 

 

 

[davefizzy14]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

 

 

What a joke that is! You couldn't make it up 

[saintant]

32 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

 

Tough one for them proving we'd have beaten Hull.

[Suhari]

21 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

Well, after the past few days, the club's really set the Barlow. 

But they need to do something to relight our fire.

[Harry_SFC]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

A member of the independent disciplinary commission that expelled Saints from the Championship play-offs has dismissed claims of bias.

 

David Winnie addressed some social media commentary, stemming from his brief spell playing for Middlesbrough more than three decades ago.

 

Winnie, a former footballer turned solicitor, made a single appearance for Boro 33 years ago, and was one of three panel members on Tuesday.

 

Saints were ruled out of the play-offs after the club was found to have spied on a Boro training session before the first leg of their semi-final.

 

On Friday, Winnie told PA: "The suggestion that a single appearance for Middlesbrough Football Club more than three decades ago could in any way influence my judgment as a member of an independent disciplinary commission is wholly without foundation.

 

"My involvement with the club consisted of one professional appearance approximately 33 years ago and has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to approach these proceedings impartially and objectively.

"As with all commission members, my duty was to consider only the evidence, the applicable EFL regulations, and the submissions advanced by the parties.

"The decision reached was unanimous and followed detailed legal argument, documentary evidence, witness testimony and careful deliberation by an experienced independent panel.

"At no stage was any issue raised by either party regarding my independence or suitability to sit on the commission.

"Had there been any legitimate basis for concern, the appropriate procedures existed for that to be addressed before the hearing proceeded.

"Professional integrity in these proceedings is paramount. My role was to uphold the integrity of the competition and apply the regulations fairly, without fear or favour, and that is precisely what the commission did."

It has also been raised that the law firm of another panellist, Lydia Banerjee, Littleton Chambers, was in 2018 contracted by Middlesbrough to represent them in cases relating to Garry Monk's dismissal and a contractual claim.

Records show barristers from Littleton Chambers represented both sides of the dispute across two cases, while Banerjee appears to have no direct link. There is no suggestion of wrongdoing.

With respect to the composition of the independent disciplinary commission, panel members are appointed by an external body - Sport Resolutions.

Guidance to panel members covers when matters may constitute a conflict, with only work or other links in the past three years ordinarily considered.

All parties - the EFL and Saints - were deemed to know the matters and had an opportunity to raise objections to the panel members, without doing so.

The EFL declined to comment on the matter. Saints have been approached.

Other observations related to the charge noted Middlesbrough chairman Neil Bausor's position on the EFL's board of directors since July 2021.

Bausor did not attend board briefings on the matter, nor did he receive any papers issued. He was also not involved in any of the proceedings.

This is standard practice in respect of conflicts of interest.

The commission found Saints head coach Tonda Eckert authorised spying at Boro, and earlier visits to training sessions held by Oxford and Ipswich.

The commission said it was “particularly deplorable” that junior staff were delegated to carry out the observations, with the intern caught at Boro’s training session telling the commission he felt pressured to do it.

Winnie, the partner and head of sports at Gilson Gray LLP, acknowledged that the commission’s decision would have “serious ramifications” across football, but added: “The commission’s duty was not to consider popularity, reputation or consequence in isolation, but to uphold the integrity of the competition and apply the regulations fairly, independently and without fear or favour.

“The commission unanimously concluded that the conduct in question represented a deliberate and organised attempt to obtain a competitive advantage in breach of fundamental principles of sporting integrity and good faith.

“Football depends upon public trust. Supporters, clubs, players and stakeholders must have confidence that competitions are conducted on a level playing field.

“This outcome reflects the seriousness with which the commission viewed repeated breaches of the regulations, particularly within the context of one of the most financially and competitively significant competitions in English football. The message is clear: cheating, in any form, has no place in the game and will not be tolerated.

“Whilst the sanctions imposed are severe, the commission considered them necessary, proportionate and essential to protect the integrity and credibility of English football moving forward.”

 

Sorry it should never have happened

[Draino76]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

 

Yep he should really not have been on that panel. He should have recused himself.  This is a clear conflict of intrerest.

[westmidlandsaint]

"At no stage was any issue raised by either party regarding my independence or suitability to sit on the commission"

No because are legal team probably didnt even pick it up, because they were shit.
 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, westmidlandsaint said:

"At no stage was any issue raised by either party regarding my independence or suitability to sit on the commission"

No because are legal team probably didnt even pick it up, because they were shit.
 

Did he declare it himself as I think he was probably obligated to do?

[James]

Member of the committee accused of not being independent, says he was independent. What a total non-story, what was he supposed to say? Another ball dropped by Saints IMO, should have pushed for both him and the barrister whose chambers represented Boro a few years ago to be removed. 

[westmidlandsaint]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

Did he declare it himself as I think he was probably obligated to do?

Good question.

I know we've done wrong and its been a monumental fuck up but there are so many parts to this that don't sit right. Wouldn't be surprised if more comes out in the future.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, westmidlandsaint said:

Good question.

I know we've done wrong and it’s been a monumental fuck up but there are so many parts to this that don't sit right. Wouldn't be surprised if more comes out in the future.

If the club did their due diligence and dug into these people just ever so slightly, then “fed” it to the media….

absolutely pathetic 😂

[bpsaint]

38 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Important news on the Southampton FC website: https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/take-that-at-st-marys-everything-you-need-to-know

 

SERIOUSLY? Fuck off. 

Just have a little….Patience.

[James]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

If the club did their due diligence and dug into these people just ever so slightly, then “fed” it to the media….

absolutely pathetic 😂

It takes literally five minutes to work this out with respect to both of them, two Google searches and you have found the answers…!

[LGTL]

I can’t believe how bad our defence was. 1 appearance or 100, there’s no way he should have been sitting on this case. We are still guilty as fuck by the way, but this is just wrong. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, SaintsfanSwindon said:

Nothing from Adam or Alfie for 24 hours now. Why the silence?

And they've both just started tweeting again, within minutes of each other... coincidence? Been behind the scenes taking to / being briefed by the club...?

[goneawol]

1 hour ago, westmidlandsaint said:

So David Winnie the not so independent independent panel member is already writing about it for his company Wilson Gray. 

Almost feels 'not in good faith' he was acting as an independent panel member not representing Wilson Gray.

https://gilsongray.co.uk/blog/southampton-case-commission-issues-strong-warning/?utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=southampton case&utm_content=read more

'The message is clear: cheating, in any form, has no place in the game and will not be tolerated.'

Wow, they're going to be busy!

[James]

Just now, LGTL said:

I can’t believe how bad our defence was. 1 appearance or 100, there’s no way he should have been sitting on this case. We are still guilty as fuck by the way, but this is just wrong. 

In the same way that it didn’t matter whether we gained an advantage or not, it doesn’t matter that he only made one appearance. The guy played for Middlesbrough during the period of Steve Gibson’s ownership. There is no clearer conflict of interest than that. They only needed to find 3 people, surely there are other qualified people that haven’t played for fucking Middlesbrough. The whole thing stinks massively. 

[64saint]

Just now, LGTL said:

I can’t believe how bad our defence was. 

Blimey, reading your comment quickly I thought we suddenly had Baz back playing goal 🙄

[trousers]

43 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Important news on the Southampton FC website: https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/take-that-at-st-marys-everything-you-need-to-know

 

SERIOUSLY? Fuck off. 

 

4 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Just have a little….Patience.

....and pray 🙏

[SWLondon Saint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If the club did their due diligence and dug into these people just ever so slightly, then “fed” it to the media….

absolutely pathetic 😂

Yep. The description of our 'evidence' at the appeal showing a training session and then Salt saying he was pushed into it are absolutely just so incredibly stupid it's hard to believe. How could anyone think showing training was even slightly relevant to the question of principle about whether spying was going on? How on earth can you let Salt say this unless you're actively trying to get some of our staff fired and banned? Who the hell thought any of that was a good idea?!

I'm so gobsmacked by the level of stupidity here I'm beginning to wonder if this all blowing up wasn't such a bad thing as some of these idiots may leave the club. But unless whoever hired them is also booted out I'm sure SR will replace them with someone even worse... 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If the club did their due diligence and dug into these people just ever so slightly, then “fed” it to the media….

absolutely pathetic 😂

That's what the 14 weeks are for.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, James said:

It takes literally five minutes to work this out with respect to both of them, two Google searches and you have found the answers…!

Once you know who the members are. When we're we informed?

[Whitey Grandad]

14 minutes ago, James said:

Member of the committee accused of not being independent, says he was independent. What a total non-story, what was he supposed to say? Another ball dropped by Saints IMO, should have pushed for both him and the barrister whose chambers represented Boro a few years ago to be removed. 

He could at least have said that he wasn't aware of the rules.

Shall we call it a draw then?

[beatlesaint]

This Winnie guy probably didn’t show any bias, just like the woman who’s company had represented Boro in their case against ex Saint Gary Monk BUT surely to Christ they could have picked 3 people who had no links to them or Southampton whatsoever couldn’t they? FFS.

[James]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

Once you know who the members are. When we're we informed?

Who knows but imagine for a second that a panel involving a random Saints player from the 90s (I’m going to select Tront Egil Soltvedt) and a retired partner from Paris Smith and Randall (who may not may not have been involved in a matter involving Southampton FC) had given us an unduly lenient punishment. Do we really think Boro would have been OK with that? Really?

[scumbag]

St Mary’s Stadium will host Take That for two huge nights of The Circus Live Tour...

The Saints board are presumably the support act.

[Smirking_Saint]

Parsons… quite clearly… has to go

Im starting to wonder if Solak is as strong a mind as we were led to believe tbh or even, sorry to say it, but Rasmus… because at what point does someone look at Parsons and believe he is the right man to steer this ship.. commercially perhaps, but not in any pressured position

We should have gone straight to our top lawyers, the best we could buy, in order to protect what we had, we should of got the low down, before Parsons cosied up to Gibson, and ensured that the ship was free of leaks

It all reads as if we went in under the impression we were due a slapped wrist, in fact our entire attitude around it looked like that.. thats unforgivable..

We should of tied the commission up in injuctions and high paid legal council until they buckled, the time pressure was of course, on them and not us

[James]

Just now, beatlesaint said:

This Winnie guy probably didn’t show any bias, just like the woman who’s company had represented Boro in their case against ex Saint Gary Monk BUT surely to Christ they could have picked 3 people who had no links to them or Southampton whatsoever couldn’t they? FFS.

Of course they could have, there will literally have been hundreds or even thousands of people they could have picked from. The whole thing stinks and if Saints didn’t due diligence on the panel members and raise objections then they are even more incompetent than I thought. It may not have made a difference but we will never know but being on the receiving end of a punishment which results in Boro being reinstated and the panel which decided that being comprised 1/3rd by an ex Boro player is just fucking shit.

[Adman]

So the Boro CEO is on the EFL board, who pick the commission, picked  2 people with connections to Boro to decide our fate. And we didn’t object.

How very SR.

We gave Boro the oppo, but that have properly tucked us up. And our lot did nothing.

[Smirking_Saint]

The biggest thing through this is how Bielsa came out of Spygate 1 as a hero, a trendsetter, a cheeky foreigner with a will to win… yet we’re the worst thing thats ever happened to the sport

[Football Special]

21 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If the club did their due diligence and dug into these people just ever so slightly, then “fed” it to the media….

absolutely pathetic 😂

Genuinely Saintsweb has been better at this than Saints , incredible really , useless legal representation 

[Roo1976]

21 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Just have a little….Patience.

that a hospital for Dwarfs

[Football Special]

5 minutes ago, James said:

Of course they could have, there will literally have been hundreds or even thousands of people they could have picked from. The whole thing stinks and if Saints didn’t due diligence on the panel members and raise objections then they are even more incompetent than I thought. It may not have made a difference but we will never know but being on the receiving end of a punishment which results in Boro being reinstated and the panel which decided that being comprised 1/3rd by an ex Boro player is just fucking shit.

Yes yes yes , your honour may like to consider the decision of this panel was not just to decide on a punishment for Southampton football club but actually to reward Middlesbrough who are clearly beneficiaries of the ruling 

[Football Special]

6 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

The biggest thing through this is how Bielsa came out of Spygate 1 as a hero, a trendsetter, a cheeky foreigner with a will to win… yet we’re the worst thing thats ever happened to the sport

Media hypocrisy at its finest, Bielsa is still talked in fond terms by both Leeds fans and media and he was congratulated for getting them promoted the following season 

[trousers]

11 minutes ago, scumbag said:

St Mary’s Stadium will host Take That for two huge nights of The Circus Live Tour...

The Saints board are presumably the support act.

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, James said:

Of course they could have, there will literally have been hundreds or even thousands of people they could have picked from. The whole thing stinks and if Saints didn’t due diligence on the panel members and raise objections then they are even more incompetent than I thought. It may not have made a difference but we will never know but being on the receiving end of a punishment which results in Boro being reinstated and the panel which decided that being comprised 1/3rd by an ex Boro player is just fucking shit.

Get over it you fanny

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, Adman said:

So the Boro CEO is on the EFL board, who pick the commission

No, Sport Resolutions chose the panel members