#Spygate

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

I'll send someone up to have a look...

That'd rub Salt into the wound.

[die Mannyschaft]

EFL have given in to a teams demands ie Boro. Now set a precedent for a strong sanction for what is essentially a Red card for kicking the ball away. What ever we get, 6 points,  pints plus fine, exit from final its now an issue for how will a more serious breach be handled. 

Man City would on paper then get 600 points and put in leaque two and not a £100k fine.

Also EFL have not told clubs to hold fire on selling tickets so that's another issue clubs will look back and say we'll we should be able to sell match tickets before decision made.

Plenty fake news saying EFL say Saints given 6 points today.  

 

[mss636]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

It's only the outcome of the first leg that's in the frame here. The second leg was outside the 72 hour embargo period...

Can’t we just say he was spying for the second leg and not the first? Problem solved!

[trousers]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Taylor is the grass apparently 

Plot twist: could he have also been involved in instigating the whole thing....? #honeytrap

[SNSUN]

3 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

EFL have given in to a teams demands ie Boro. Now set a precedent for a strong sanction for what is essentially a Red card for kicking the ball away. What ever we get, 6 points,  pints plus fine, exit from final its now an issue for how will a more serious breach be handled. 

Man City would on paper then get 600 points and put in leaque two and not a £100k fine.

Also EFL have not told clubs to hold fire on selling tickets so that's another issue clubs will look back and say we'll we should be able to sell match tickets before decision made.

Plenty fake news saying EFL say Saints given 6 points today.  

 

There's been plenty of AI garbage on Facebook for nearly a week saying this. It's all nonsense and speculation.

[sadoldgit]

19 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

The 72 hour rule is what creates so many grey areas for me. If spying is so frowned upon, just ban it outright.

Also, if it is such a big deal, why isn’t it banned in the EPL too?

[egg]

4 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Come on Hypo, they are doing what their lawyers are telling them to do. Doesn't make it right though. They are hanging their own supporters out to dry.

The story is gathering pace now, I can't watch, listen, or read any ws now without this bloody fiasco being mentioned.

Predictably we are starting to see people hitting out at each other on here. Goodness knows what will happen when we do actually know something.

 

Oh come on, step back and look at the bigger picture. This is massive for the club, it's owners, players, staff. Massive. Sure, we're impacted, but making this about the fans is daft. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Come on Hypo, they are doing what their lawyers are telling them to do. Doesn't make it right though. They are hanging their own supporters out to dry.

The story is gathering pace now, I can't watch, listen, or read any ws now without this bloody fiasco being mentioned.

Predictably we are starting to see people hitting out at each other on here. Goodness knows what will happen when we do actually know something.

 

Eh? The offence was entirely wrong and they shouldn't have done it. Subsequent to that you are right they are being instructed by their lawyers, keeping quiet and doing exactly what they should be doing which is getting a case ready in private. There is nothing they could say prior to that that would do any good. Prevent expulsion and they have done their job. 

[Toussaint]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

Are Middlesbrough players still training?

Yes, but in a bunker 200 feet underground with 6” steel doors at the entrance,  at a secret location. God forbid Hull get wind of their cunning plan to revolutionise football with never been seen before formations and tactics. Rumours are that Hellburg forgot to pack his toothbrush, but rumours persist he doesn’t actually own one. 

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

Also, if it is such a big deal, why isn’t it banned in the EPL too?

Premier League teams aren't noddy clubs like Boro whose training ground is out in the open? 😁

[trousers]

1 minute ago, mss636 said:

Can’t we just say he was spying for the second leg and not the first? Problem solved!

That idea was floated in jest by some at the outset, but, as it's since been suggested that one thing we might have been trying to get an insight into is their penalty taking, then that would of course have been reconnaissance for the second leg, and outside the 72 hour embargo... You never know I guess... 

(That said, I think it's fairly obvious the primary reason for someone being there was to establish the situation with regards Hackney's fitness) 

[danjosaint]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

It's only the outcome of the first leg that's in the frame here. The second leg was outside the 72 hour embargo period...

And that's what riled me up listening to Rory Jennings , who i normally dont mind on talksport, all he argued with a saints fan was that we won the game Tuesday because of it 

[bender]

This is crucial.  If we get kicked out, we can appeal and that would be horrendous for the EFL.  The ramifications are ridiculous.   If Boro don't get what they want, all they can do is start off separate legal action against us and maybe the EFL and we'll end up giving them massive compensation if we go up but less if we don't

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-hearing-appeal-33949865

 

[leeham_69]

26 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Taylor is the grass apparently 

Surely this is all Eric Black’s fault

[disconnect]

If Boro had won, they wouldn’t care less!! (They’d of course feed all the papers with how it’s some sort of sporting miracle against the cheats etc).

To put it into context, I was talking to a couple of Pompey fans last night at a works do who said that it was all completely over the top and anything more than a fine is ridiculously harsh. Also said they were sure most teams do this sort of thing (and a lot worse)!

Edited 8 hours ago by disconnect
Typo

[James G]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Oh come on, step back and look at the bigger picture. This is massive for the club, it's owners, players, staff. Massive. Sure, we're impacted, but making this about the fans is daft. 

I think any punishments should be given to the individuals involved and not the club as a whole

The Middlesbrough manager himself said it wasn't about us, or the players etc.. so on that basis that is where the focus should be

[trousers]

7 hours ago, LeG said:

Will say more when it’s done and give context. I’d be moronic to do that now on a public forum. No order from the top though. 
 

 

I guess "the top" is open to interpretation here... Obviously the very top of the organisation is Dragan, but Tonda, for example, could be considered 'the top' in the context of just the coaching staff. 

There's a big difference if this means "there was no order from Dragan / Parsons, the order came from Spors / Tonda" and "there was no order from Spors / Tonda"

I guess you can't say exactly what you mean by "from the top" yet @LeG?

[macca155]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Oh come on, step back and look at the bigger picture. This is massive for the club, it's owners, players, staff. Massive. Sure, we're impacted, but making this about the fans is daft. 

I'm not trying to it's just sad to see so many entrenched positions being taken, that doesn't end well.

I know fuck all about this, but the idea we could be chucked out of the playoffs for such a minor offence is ludicrous.

As I said earlier there are no good scenarios here. I'm starting to fear the worst, which is madness.

[Southner]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Well said Nicky Butt 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-row-latest-33949202?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwRlRTSARzmJBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeckMV3DffXRmlBwQFPP0OF1T8ECaOV-5w-RosfBwAJx7TlxOmV_0o9gLqRfw_aem_aFxi3cID-l0Pm-LtFgR9VA

 

Bias aside, it's good to hear an opposing view.

How often do the media leak info before a game, whether it be lineups, injury news, or whatnot - and not just because it's common knowledge. They'll want to get 'one up' on other media outlets. It's not done to help one's self, of course, but I'm sure they're not too bothered about how an opposition might utilise that info.

Granted it's not the same, and it's still embarrassing, but most sporting media outlets really do have double standards, but we already know that.

[LGTL]

I agree that Blackmore is being a moron. There are times when club, fans, local media all have to fucking stick together, and this is one of those times. 

You have the entirety of the national media against us thanks to Gibbo and his influences. You then have Saints rightly saying nothing. The last thing we need is our local journo sticking the boot in even more. He can be a right twat at times. 

[SNSUN]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

That idea was floated in jest by some at the outset, but, as it's since been suggested that one thing we might have been trying to get an insight into is their penalty taking, then that would of course have been reconnaissance for the second leg, and outside the 72 hour embargo... You never know I guess... 

(That said, I think it's fairly obvious the primary reason for someone being there was to establish the situation with regards Hackney's fitness) 

A little knock to the knee by a hired goon would have sufficed, then we wouldn't be getting the football sanctions, just criminal ones. Which, after this week's outpouring of hatred from all corners, is probably better. 

[kwsaint]

I would point out to all those who think it’s all anybody can talk about on social media, like me you probably click on articles and opinion pieces about it. Because of this engagement, the platforms push more pieces about it to keep you engaged. It gives the impression it’s all anybody can talk about.

[Challenger]

33 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Errr, yes they can. Saints can. It’s called an appeal process. They can, they should and they will. And it would result in the final having to be moved. Which is why expulsion won’t happen. 

Saying ‘Rules are rules’ in football is the most pathetic argument imaginable. Every team and club, at every level, bends or outright ignores rules every day trying to get an advantage. 

Indeed, however most clubs are not so pathetically naive like us to get caught.

[egg]

Just now, bender said:

This is crucial.  If we get kicked out, we can appeal and that would be horrendous for the EFL.  The ramifications are ridiculous.   If Boro don't get what they want, all they can do is start off separate legal action against us and maybe the EFL and we'll end up giving them massive compensation if we go up but less if we don't

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-hearing-appeal-33949865

 

Yep, the right of appeal, for me, makes expulsion very unlikely. We have 14 days from decision to appeal, although the panel can reduce that timescale and undoubtedly would. That appeal isn't getting dealt with before the play off final, and would inevitably take time.

You've also got the prospect of a particular club benefiting from any decision, and another club objecting to that and seeking their own tribunal.

Draconian punishment comes with too many ramifications and delays to make it likely imo.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

I guess "the top" is open to interpretation here... Obviously the very top of the organisation is Dragan, but Tonda, for example, could be considered 'the top' in the context of just the coaching staff. 

There's a big difference if this means "there was no order from Dragan / Parsons, the order came from Spors / Tonda" and "there was no order from Spors / Tonda"

I guess you can't say exactly what you mean by "from the top" yet @LeG?

I think the less LeG says, the better, tbh. He's been ambiguous which has caused more than enough speculation imo. 

[saintant]

32 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Taylor is the grass apparently 

I know but it's possible his involvement goes deeper than just that. He's worked for both clubs so would still have contacts at Boro.

[benjii]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yep, the right of appeal, for me, makes expulsion very unlikely. We have 14 days from decision to appeal, although the panel can reduce that timescale and undoubtedly would. That appeal isn't getting dealt with before the play off final, and would inevitably take time.

You've also got the prospect of a particular club benefiting from any decision, and another club objecting to that and seeking their own tribunal.

Draconian punishment comes with too many ramifications and delays to make it likely imo.

Plus, that is the EFL appeal process. There is nothing stopping us pursuing a court injunction as well whenever we like.

[Gloucester Saint]

Putting aside of the technicalities which are sleep-inducing, either SFC or an individual has done wrong and broken an EFL rule for which there will be a punishment of some form.

But our initial frustration as a fanbase at our own club has been superceded by the absolutely appalling vitriol directed at us from Middlesbrough, their fans, their media (especially), their politicians and their various Gibson pets in the national media.

Hellberg started in the right and mature place - it doesn’t affect the matches, not players or fans fault. Angry at SFC behaviour as club. Complaint made, establish facts. Fair. If you’d stuck to that, well done, you’d have been the bigger man. Respect.

He didn’t though and joined in with the rest of the hysteria and hatred, the like of which I’ve never seen even from Portsmouth in five decades. We’ve been called scum by BBC Radio Tees, cunts by their supporters in-person, out of football contexts/venues, THB called a scumbag and Tonda a cheat by their sports editor of their local newspaper without any evidence whatsoever of his involvement. Some libel cases in there to pursue once the dust has settled.

The level of bile is far outweighed by what seems to happened to an astonishing extent.

Middlesbrough sums up what’s happened to ‘left behind’ areas of England and what 18 years without real economic growth does to already struggling areas and populations. To think this was an area which produced great football figures like Brian Clough and Peter Taylor. 

 

[Ed Rooney]

Would be such a huge punishment if they remove us from the competition, but if they did then would it be a removal from the league for the next teams who get caught doing this, I guess it would have to be, that would be interesting 

Edited 8 hours ago by Ed Rooney

[coalman]

36 minutes ago, egg said:

That's understandable given the EFL press release mentioned possible appeal (either side can appeal, ie the EFL if we receive an outcome they think too generous) and postponement. The EFL could have simply said that "there is an imminent disciplinary tribunal and we will release the outcome in early course. Pending any decision to the contrary, it's business as usual". They didn't do that and instead put the prospect of a draconian verdict, and challenge, into the public arena. 

They needed to say that to avoid future litigation from anyone who bought tickets. And "Gibbo" of course as they'll need to show they've taken it seriously if, ahem when he throws his toys out of the pram

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

24 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Romsey boy lad. You?

"Romsey lad" 🤣

"Cheer up grizzling-Gibbo

Oh what can it mean

to a sad smoggie bastard

and a shit football team"

[Osvaldorama]

43 minutes ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

melt

[egg]

Just now, benjii said:

Plus, that is the EFL appeal process. There is nothing stopping us pursuing a court injunction as well whenever we like.

In theory, but there's an arbitration clause in the EFL regs/our contract with the EFL, so that binds, and likely ousts the courts jurisdiction. 

[egg]

Just now, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

"Romsey lad" 🤣

"Cheer up grizzling-Gibbo

Oh what can it mean

to a sad smoggie bastard

and a shit football team"

"Lad" is as Tees Valley as "mush" is Test Valley. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Well said Nicky Butt 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/middlesbrough-southampton-spygate-row-latest-33949202?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwRlRTSARzmJBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeckMV3DffXRmlBwQFPP0OF1T8ECaOV-5w-RosfBwAJx7TlxOmV_0o9gLqRfw_aem_aFxi3cID-l0Pm-LtFgR9VA

 

Yep, he's saying what a lot of us have already been highlighting: this 'spying' malarkey is almost certainly rife across the board. Most teams must do it. It's just one of those things that everybody knows happens and is largely tolerated because everyone does it. 

The only difference here is that, potentially, Middlesbrough saw it as an opportunity to gain an advantage in the playoff games by unsettling our players and preparation as much as possible. And, to be fair, they've played a blinder. (I still think there might be something in the honey trap theory in this regard)

I just hope that the 'independent panel' take the likelihood of this being more widespread into account when dishing out the recommended punishment.

Edited 8 hours ago by trousers

[benjii]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

In theory, but there's an arbitration clause in the EFL regs/our contract with the EFL, so that binds, and likely ousts the courts jurisdiction. 

It won't stop interim relief measures.

[rallyboy]

In the cold calm light of day, we are being charged with one offence.

The evidence and defence hasn't been heard yet.

Boro are not part of that process, they have no right of appeal.

Everything else, the multiple instances, the clubs going to Boro with evidence, the manager's tears, the high tech spy equipment inside the training ground, the spy fleeing, the damning paper trails etc is nothing more than Boro hype to distract from the wheels coming off their season. They blew it bigtime and need someone else to blame.

Football knows that Man City and Chelsea have been 'bending rules' for a decade and winning multiple trophies, to think that we would be chucked out for this, if proven, would be wildly disproportionate.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

16 minutes ago, LGTL said:

I agree that Blackmore is being a moron. There are times when club, fans, local media all have to fucking stick together, and this is one of those times. 

You have the entirety of the national media against us thanks to Gibbo and his influences. You then have Saints rightly saying nothing. The last thing we need is our local journo sticking the boot in even more. He can be a right twat at times. 

Agreed.

Blackmore could do a lot more.

Where's the younger Saints fans at? They should have been all over tiktok and Instagram etc pushing the Saints narrative!

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, rallyboy said:

In the cold calm light of day, we are being charged with one offence.

The evidence and defence hasn't been heard yet.

Boro are not part of that process, they have no right of appeal.

Everything else, the multiple instances, the clubs going to Boro with evidence, the manager's tears, the high tech spy equipment inside the training ground, the spy fleeing, the damning paper trails etc is nothing more than Boro hype to distract from the wheels coming off their season. They blew it bigtime and need someone else to blame.

Football knows that Man City and Chelsea have been 'bending rules' for a decade and winning multiple trophies, to think that we would be chucked out for this, if proven, would be wildly disproportionate.

Quite. 

The anger towards SFC/the individual - I get.

The anger and pure volume of bile towards us, Tonda, THB = unnecessary and worse than anything I’ve ever seen. Saints v Pompey is bitter during the game, and at most 1-2 days before and after. But fundamentally most on both sides know its banter and there are reasonable limits. Like most local rivalries.

Because Middlesbrough don’t have a local rival who is bothered about them and their town is really suffering from Brexit, a lot of built up fury is coming our way which is crazy for a single incident which has happened in the sport before. Look at Leeds v Derby - a few chants, bit of verbals and died down. 

 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, benjii said:

It won't stop interim relief measures.

I disagree. The arbitration clause is binding - it's trite law. 

[West Dean FC Legend]

4 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Football knows that Man City and Chelsea have been 'bending rules' for a decade and winning multiple trophies, to think that we would be chucked out for this, if proven, would be wildly disproportionate.

I have been saying similar all over the Middlesbrough supporting posts/articles on SM - I am stopping now it's too much I'll be honest - but this statement is so true it is almost a parody. I agree with it entirely and have said as much - I mean whomever gets into the Premier League, no matter how they do it, their fans will be celebrating like they have just won the World Cup for the fifth time in a row if they finish 19th on goal difference. I mean what a crap league - we have no chance of winning or even getting in the top four unless we have millions and millions of pounds to influence the bigger clubs and even then....

Genuinely it is uncompetitive- and that's before we get onto VAR....

[Saint NL]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

"Lad" is as Tees Valley as "mush" is Test Valley. 

I say Lad all the time. Bit disappointing to find out I'm Northern 😢

[westmidlandsaint]

1 hour ago, TestValley said:

Bottom line is rules are rules and Saints knowingly broke them to try to get an unfair advantage in a crucial tie. 

Overnight has turned the club into the most disliked in the country. 

I doubt it will happen but if the punishment is expulsion from the final, no one can complain. 

Have you actually spoken to fans around the country. Living here in the West Midlands I can tell you I have plenty of Villa, Birmingham, Wolves, WBA (as well as the usual glory hunters) and not one of them gives a flying fuck about it. If anything they all find it hilarious when the image came out.

[SNSUN]

2 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

I say Lad all the time. Bit disappointing to find out I'm Northern 😢

If you wear a coat in the winter, you're a Southerner. That's how I work it out. 😆

[trousers]

32 minutes ago, saintant said:

I know but it's possible his involvement goes deeper than just that. He's worked for both clubs so would still have contacts at Boro.

Which might also help explain why his LinkedIn profile was also taken down around the same time as Salt's (supposedly)...?

Edited 8 hours ago by trousers

[skintsaint]

47 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Plenty fake news saying EFL say Saints given 6 points today.  

The same as failing FFP rules? 😅

[Maggie May]

If we’d sent our lad Will to their training ground to shout pleasantries about Boro, Hellberg and Gibson, would we have been charged with a Salt and flattery?

[RedArmy]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Which might also help explain why his LinkedIn profile was also taken down around the same time as Salt's (supposedly)

It was, and my assumption was that he was the one to normally go and do the spying but for obvious reasons couldn’t go to Boro so sent Salt in his place who turned out to be a complete amateur. 
 

That doesn’t appear to be the case now, although I’m fairly sure his LinkedIn still showed him as a currently employee. 

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, Maggie May said:

If spying is so frowned upon, just ban it outright.

Its scouting the opposition not spying which is such a dramatic twist on it 😅, and yes all teams do it. We just did it in the wrong time frame and we should be punished by fine/minor points.

[Gloucester Saint]

6 minutes ago, westmidlandsaint said:

Have you actually spoken to fans around the country. Living here in the West Midlands I can tell you I have plenty of Villa, Birmingham, Wolves, WBA (as well as the usual glory hunters) and not one of them gives a flying fuck about it. If anything they all find it hilarious when the image came out.

I work there and what you’re saying is 100% true. Most thought the photo by the tree was hilarious and not taken seriously particularly. They know there’s a rule breach that will be dealt with but their neutral perception is night and day with Middlesbrough’s.