Mike Jones - Saturday's ref to exagerate pitch invasion?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I have been onto the FA this morning to complain about the indecent haste in which the ref blew up prematurely and then left the pitch while a comatose player lay injured on the pitch. They have asked me to put my complaint in writing. It will also be interesting now that he has been asked to submit a report on the pitch invasion as when it started he was half way up the tunnel. My fear will be he will exagerate the seriousness or timing of it to justify his rather cowardly actions.

 

By my reckoning when he blew for time (not for the foul on Wotton) it was at least one minute short of the allotted 4 minutes. I know it is a long shot but with a free kick and Burnley defence hanging on and taking into account the incredibly charged atmosphere at the time, a goal could have easily been registered and today we would still be in with a small shout of staying up if we beat Forest. I think he was almost frightened of Saints scoring knowing how highly charged the atmosphere was.

 

Did anyone note the period of added time or is there a way of finding out through Sky? Would appreciate anyone helping on this because at the time I was very suspicious and the more I reflect on it I think we were cheated of a priceless last minute and a player could well have been left to choke on his own tongue.

[J Bizzle]

There was meant to be 4 mins of added time, but about 2-3 mins were played.

[Mister Neil]

Speak to Radio Hampshire. I was listening while watching in the ground and I am fairly confident that they said there was one minute of injury time left just before the incident. They also seem as confused as everyone else in the ground because they were unsure if the ref had blown for the foul or time. The whole officiating crew were total pants and should be struck off their respective lists although I doubt much will happen.

 

HTH.

[SFC Forever]

Bit of a lon shot this one. The league will use anything they can and we have given them a way round the points problem.

[Give it to Ron]

Actually the 4 minutes is not correct...its at least 4 minutes, add on for any substitutions, injuries, time wasting you continue or until Arsenal/Man U equalise ;-)

[explorer saint]

Agree totally there was no way the 4 mins were played and mentioned this to all at the time, it felt more like only 2. I didn't hear the whistle all I heard was that stupid music.

The ref bottled it, good luck and well done for doing this

[badgerx16]

Speak to Radio Hampshire. I was listening while watching in the ground and I am fairly confident that they said there was one minute of injury time left just before the incident. They also seem as confused as everyone else in the ground because they were unsure if the ref had blown for the foul or time. The whole officiating crew were total pants and should be struck off their respective lists although I doubt much will happen.

 

HTH.

Radio Lancashire were equally baffled, as they thought he had blown up for Wotton's injury, then noticed the ref was no longer on the pitch.

[ITKSaint]

It would be a stronger case without the post-match pitch invasion and trouble.

[St_Guido]

My mate who writes for

[MOSaint.]

Already emailed a complaint to the FA, digraceful show of refereeing, all this respect campaign and this idiot shows us how not to do it.

[St_Guido]

My mate who wrote the match report for The Times & who I gave a lift home to, told me it clearly finished early.

[Kingsland Codger]

The general view amongst the fans where I sit was there was still (plenty of) time to take the free-kick.

 

However, you are wise to draw this to the attention of the authorities as the easy option for the ref and the FL is to say the pitch invasion caused the match to be finished early. They need to be told this wasn't the case.

 

A firmer referee would have made it abundantly clear Saints has been awarded a free-kick and would have motioned to the physio to come on to attend to Wotton. Play would have resumed with either no invasion having taken place or being nipped in the bud.

 

If the authorities require more letters to confirm this, I would gladly write one. Please PM me is this would be of any use.

[The9]

I have been onto the FA this morning to complain about the indecent haste in which the ref blew up prematurely and then left the pitch while a comatose player lay injured on the pitch. They have asked me to put my complaint in writing. It will also be interesting now that he has been asked to submit a report on the pitch invasion as when it started he was half way up the tunnel. My fear will be he will exagerate the seriousness or timing of it to justify his rather cowardly actions.

 

By my reckoning when he blew for time (not for the foul on Wotton) it was at least one minute short of the allotted 4 minutes. I know it is a long shot but with a free kick and Burnley defence hanging on and taking into account the incredibly charged atmosphere at the time, a goal could have easily been registered and today we would still be in with a small shout of staying up if we beat Forest. I think he was almost frightened of Saints scoring knowing how highly charged the atmosphere was.

 

Did anyone note the period of added time or is there a way of finding out through Sky? Would appreciate anyone helping on this because at the time I was very suspicious and the more I reflect on it I think we were cheated of a priceless last minute and a player could well have been left to choke on his own tongue.

 

I always set my timer on my phone to count down the added time from the point (on 90 minutes) when the 4th official holds the board up. We were nowhere near the 4 minutes as my alarm didn't go off until hundreds of people were already on the pitch, and Saints had also made a substitution in the added time period.

 

Having said that, our fans invaded, and bearing in mind we stayed up with a result at Upton Park once when the ref blew prematurely due to a pitch invasion I don't think we can have any complaints.

 

Also, comatose was putting it a bit strongly, he did look knocked out though. Clearly the ref was in no position to make any kind of report on the pitch invasion.

 

The only thing that needed looking at IMO was the useless policing that didn't bother to monitor the front of the Kingsland a whole 10 yards from where they had the dogs in front of the Northam - and where were they when people were carving up the pitch and snapping the goals ?

[krissyboy31]

I was talking with my brother when Wotton was being treated and noting that the players were shaking hands and that Surman and James had slumped to the ground, said that the final whistle must have been blown. His reply was that it can't have done because he reset his stopwatch from the end of the 90 mins and there was at least a minute still to go.

[Pancake]

Rather odd thread title, not really what the first post is about...

[Scummer]

He'd definitely ended the match well before the pitch invasion. Possibly about a minute before. Saw him shaking hands with Burnley players within a few seconds of the foul on Wotton.

[knellster]

The referee's main responsibility has to be the safety of the players. As a previous poster mentioned the idiots in the corner weren't watching the match and couldn't wait to get onto the pitch. My guess (and I am sure that the ref won't admit to it) is that he wasn't convinced that he, his two linesmen or some of the Burnley players were safe and gave a message to the players that he would blow the final whistle in 10 seconds so they could make their way towards the tunnel. Did anyone see where the assistant on the Kingsland side was when the final whistle went? Was he already half way across the pitch?

 

Sadly Duncan there is something of a precedent that won't help us. Fulham got relegated when a match finished over a minute early because of a pitch invasion by opposing fans. I don't think the behaviour of our "fans" will encourage the authorities to help us.

[Scummer]

I always set my timer on my phone to count down the added time from the point (on 90 minutes) when the 4th official holds the board up.

 

The board often gets held up before 90 minutes are up.

[miserableoldgit]

The general view amongst the fans where I sit was there was still (plenty of) time to take the free-kick.

 

However, you are wise to draw this to the attention of the authorities as the easy option for the ref and the FL is to say the pitch invasion caused the match to be finished early. They need to be told this wasn't the case.

 

A firmer referee would have made it abundantly clear Saints has been awarded a free-kick and would have motioned to the physio to come on to attend to Wotton. Play would have resumed with either no invasion having taken place or being nipped in the bud.

 

If the authorities require more letters to confirm this, I would gladly write one. Please PM me is this would be of any use.

It was actually the Burnley players called for the Physio. The ref was totally useless and had no control for the whole game. David Armstrong on Radio Hants (not for the first time) stood up for the ref and reckoned that he got most decisions right!

[lenwilkins]

Rather odd thread title, not really what the first post is about...

 

No it's complete speculation. How can FF know that the ref is going to exaggerate (correct spelling) anything? It's all on CCTV anyhow.

 

Think you're wasting your time here Dunc, it's not going to change a thing.

 

Would be far more interested to know where the £40m missing story came from. It would buy a lot of Have you got the man at the Grauniad yet?

[The9]

The board often gets held up before 90 minutes are up.

 

No it doesn't, it gets displayed on exactly 90 minutes.

 

HTH.

[NickG]

started stop watch when clock showed 90 - only realised that it was over when benches were shaking hands - well before min added time.

 

Fans didn't come on until after that

[Scummer]

No it doesn't, it gets displayed on exactly 90 minutes.

 

HTH.

 

So is the scoreboard clock wrong? As I've often seen the added time board held up when there's only 88 or 89 minutes showing on the screen. I don't think there's any official rule covering when it should be held up.

[krissyboy31]

So is the scoreboard clock wrong? As I've often seen the added time board held up when there's only 88 or 89 minutes showing on the screen. I don't think there's any official rule covering when it should be held up.

 

But with that argument, even more time should be added, not less.

[knellster]

So is the scoreboard clock wrong? As I've often seen the added time board held up when there's only 88 or 89 minutes showing on the screen. I don't think there's any official rule covering when it should be held up.

 

It isn't strictly speaking a rule but the fourth official should show the board on 90 minutes. I know 'cos I got bollocked by an assessor for putting it up early at a game!

[Scummer]

But with that argument, even more time should be added, not less.

 

Yeah I agree.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

If we are going to pre-empt the content of a report by the ref then lets be pro-active in generating as many eye witness accounts(c.23k) as possible substantiated by CCTV available along with the TV cameras that were there, quite a task but one which could prove vital if a threat of further point deduction exists

[Block 5]

Rather odd thread title, not really what the first post is about...

 

Traffic Warden!!

[Deano6]

So this is a thread about the fact someone might exagerate a report, but also might not.

 

Great work.

[Pancake]

Traffic Warden!!

 

Even more weird! :confused:

[FloridaMarlin]

Law 5 states: "The referee shall act as timekeeper and keep a record of the game."

 

More importantly, the catch-all:

 

"The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, ARE FINAL."

 

Apply that to Law 7: "The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee." and you will see that any complaints on matters relating to the officiating of the match are doomed to failure.

 

The basic premise of football is that the referee's decision is final. If he says: "I played four minutes additional time, according to my stop-watch," nobody, not even the FA, can argue with him.

 

The principle is that the referee has primacy, and the FA would not dare to do anything to undermine that. And nor should they.

[St Landrew]

Actually the 4 minutes is not correct...its at least 4 minutes, add on for any substitutions, injuries, time wasting you continue or until Arsenal/Man U equalise ;-)

 

Very good, but not quite accurate. In the rule book it clearly states that the ref shall add on time to:

 

1] Allow Arsenal to equalise

2] Allow ManU to equalise AND score the winning goal. All footballs that enter the ManU net after they have equalised will be deemed unsporting, and therefore ineligible. The Webb, sorry Ref, can decide how long he can get away with this.

[Danny]

So is the scoreboard clock wrong? As I've often seen the added time board held up when there's only 88 or 89 minutes showing on the screen. I don't think there's any official rule covering when it should be held up.

 

It was wrong on Saturday. The clock didn't start until about 40 seconds into the second half.

[Victor]

Rather odd thread title, not really what the first post is about...

 

 

No it's not odd. I can see why you are a 'simple' moderator. FH's point is that the ref made a total **** up and will use the pitch invasion to smoke screen his totally inept and inadequate handling of the situation.

 

I was directly opposite the incident in the Kingsland. The facts are that:

 

there was still time at least time for a free kick to be taken and we were pressurising

Burnley at the time.

Wotton was clearly in need of urgent attention.

the ref blew to end the game pretty well immediately, but I believe this was not

appreciated by everyone because there was clearly at least a minute to go and because

he made no clear indication of what the situation was. He had in any case lost control of

the game well before this.

 

The pitch invasion from our section did not occur until it was realised that the game had in fact finished. I appreciate there may have been a different situation at the Northam end. The ref's first responsibility was to get treatment for Wotton, but it seemed his only concern

[Ken Tone]

Actually the 4 minutes is not correct...its at least 4 minutes, add on for any substitutions, injuries, time wasting you continue or until Arsenal/Man U equalise ;-)

 

They always say 'at least x' minutes, but the reality is not consistent with that. If they really meant 'at least' then logically some matches with only seconds to add on, would end with a board saying 'at least 0' minutes, allowing for up to 1 min.

 

As for saturday, it was not clear to me when the game had ended, but I was aware of it *before* the idiots ran on. The pitch invasion annoyed me though, quite apart from the stupidity of confronting the burnley fans, because it meant there was no chance to properly finish the home season by clapping the players.

 

Before some smart arse says they didn't deserve clapping -- some of them did!

 

K.

[John D]

Exactly 3min and 8 seconds of the 4 minutes had been played. I know someone who started their stopwatch when ref blew whistle for 2nd half

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I always set my timer on my phone to count down the added time from the point (on 90 minutes) when the 4th official holds the board up. We were nowhere near the 4 minutes as my alarm didn't go off until hundreds of people were already on the pitch, and Saints had also made a substitution in the added time period.

 

Having said that, our fans invaded, and bearing in mind we stayed up with a result at Upton Park once when the ref blew prematurely due to a pitch invasion I don't think we can have any complaints.

 

Also, comatose was putting it a bit strongly, he did look knocked out though. Clearly the ref was in no position to make any kind of report on the pitch invasion.

 

The only thing that needed looking at IMO was the useless policing that didn't bother to monitor the front of the Kingsland a whole 10 yards from where they had the dogs in front of the Northam - and where were they when people were carving up the pitch and snapping the goals ?

 

That match at Upton Park was actually restarted after the pitch was cleared and West Ham then equalised.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The referee's main responsibility has to be the safety of the players. As a previous poster mentioned the idiots in the corner weren't watching the match and couldn't wait to get onto the pitch. My guess (and I am sure that the ref won't admit to it) is that he wasn't convinced that he, his two linesmen or some of the Burnley players were safe and gave a message to the players that he would blow the final whistle in 10 seconds so they could make their way towards the tunnel. Did anyone see where the assistant on the Kingsland side was when the final whistle went? Was he already half way across the pitch?

 

Sadly Duncan there is something of a precedent that won't help us. Fulham got relegated when a match finished over a minute early because of a pitch invasion by opposing fans. I don't think the behaviour of our "fans" will encourage the authorities to help us.

 

But the match was not stopped because of the invading fans. The ref was actually in the tunnel by the time the pitch was invaded. There is a difference.

[Scummer]

That match at Upton Park was actually restarted after the pitch was cleared and West Ham then equalised.

 

And then there was another pitch invasion and the ref decided he'd had enough and blew up early.

[miserableoldgit]

They always say 'at least x' minutes, but the reality is not consistent with that. If they really meant 'at least' then logically some matches with only seconds to add on, would end with a board saying 'at least 0' minutes, allowing for up to 1 min.

 

As for saturday, it was not clear to me when the game had ended, but I was aware of it *before* the idiots ran on. The pitch invasion annoyed me though, quite apart from the stupidity of confronting the burnley fans, because it meant there was no chance to properly finish the home season by clapping the players.

 

Before some smart arse says they didn't deserve clapping -- some of them did!

 

K.

 

I agree. In fact Wotte said that the team wanted to come out and applaud the fans for the fantastic support in what has been a nightmare of a season.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

No it's complete speculation. How can FF know that the ref is going to exaggerate (correct spelling) anything? It's all on CCTV anyhow.

 

Think you're wasting your time here Dunc, it's not going to change a thing.

 

Would be far more interested to know where the £40m missing story came from. It would buy a lot of Have you got the man at the Grauniad yet?

 

Take your point Len but if I was the ref being asked to write a report on the pitch invasion and I had blown a minute early and left an injured player motionless on the ground I would be inclined to exagerate the seriousness of the invasion to justify my actions. I am of course a cynic, but I am nervous the FA will throw the book at us to cover their own official's utter incompetance.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

And then there was another pitch invasion and the ref decided he'd had enough and blew up early.

 

He wa sout of order then because if West Ham had scored again we would have gone down.

[LGTL]

No it doesn't, it gets displayed on exactly 90 minutes.

 

HTH.

 

 

Funny you should say that actually, because I specifically looked at the clock when the 4 minutes was displayed, and the clock read 89 minutes 30 seconds. Ok it's only half a minute, but adds to the amount of time he missed.

[brmbrm]

I looked at my watch and we had played 2;30 to 2:40 of extra time. When i looked back up I thought the pitch invasion was during normal time, ref leaving pitch, possible big trouble (you can see how attention i was paying....). So on that basis, he didn't play enough by over a minute.

 

BUT.

 

The clock on the TV was about 89:00 when the extra 4 minutes was added, so possibly the clock on the TV was wrong time, in which case its about OK.

 

I'd much rather we didn't invade the pitch during the game time; more point deduction?

[OldNick]

There was a lot of confusion.The medical staff ran on to see to PW the tunnel was pulled forward and then the ref who seemed worried about the propect of fans coming on the pitch called time.It was only when i saw Perry shake hands with a Burnley player did I realise the game was over.

[St Chalet]

If the league reviewed the video tape and the match ended early then the game would have to be replayed in theory.

 

In reality we will have no chance of this happening.

[derry]

The clock didn't start at the kick off. It eventually started over a minute late.

[Soggy Bottom]

Here comes the muck spreading.

 

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2009/04/27/southampton-2-2-burnley-saints-fans-run-amok-at-10-point-penalty-115875-21311507/

[eelpie]

Speak to Radio Hampshire. I was listening while watching in the ground and I am fairly confident that they said there was one minute of injury time left just before the incident. They also seem as confused as everyone else in the ground because they were unsure if the ref had blown for the foul or time. The whole officiating crew were total pants and should be struck off their respective lists although I doubt much will happen.

 

HTH.

 

Key to all this imo is why did he shake hands with a Saints player before he turned to attend to the injured Wotton?

Check this out on the match video. he would never have shaken hands if he had not blown for the end of the match.

 

I believe this is proof that he ended the match prematurely.

[The9]

So is the scoreboard clock wrong? As I've often seen the added time board held up when there's only 88 or 89 minutes showing on the screen. I don't think there's any official rule covering when it should be held up.

 

The scoreboard clock is usually pretty close, but the 4th official is supposed to hold the board up on 90 minutes. The only time they're likely not to do that is if there's a substitution already in progress.

 

I'm not sure there's an official ruling in terms of IFAB interpretation and it's not in the Laws of the game, but it's been accepted practice for a few years now.

 

And I've never seen the official hold up the board in the 88th or 89th minute, even according the scoreboard clock. I've seen it once or twice on 89:55 or thereabouts though, but then the scoreboard clock isn't the official time.