Running up the white flag and accepting defeat.

[derry]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

The press, the tv, a big crowd, the new manager and most importantly the new owner at his first match.

 

What did we do, picked a side and formation that couldn't compete and tried to keep the score down.

 

On that day something else was needed to fuel the optimism certainly not accepting defeat.

 

Last night I watched a little Irish part time team take on Real Madrid including Ronaldo and give it a right go losing 1-0.

 

Over the years I've watched little clubs every season turning over big clubs in the cups, they didn't do it by surrendering, they gave it their best shot.

 

We don't seem to know how to give it our best shot, the smell of apathy and defeat is all over St Mary's.

 

Alan Pardew sounds as though he comes from the right school with a we are going to win attitude.

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

As a supporter I've had enough of coming to St Mary's week in, week out and watching players and managers going through the motions.

 

Last Saturday was a disgrace and should be seen as such, if it hadn't been for Kelvin Davis Ajax could have got 10 with a defensive formation FFS.

 

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

[bungle]

It.

Is.

Pre-

Season.

[OfnPanad]

I wasn't at the weekend's match but I was at Hillsborough last season where we did this. Worst game I've ever seen, including the 5-0 from the previous season.

 

All for giving it a go. That's why I was so excited about the Keegan rumours!

[70's Mike]

It is a mental thing they have been brainwashed into believing they are better than what they are.

Hard work, pride and ability must come in equal amounts

[chrisobee]

Just speechless :smt102

[Toomer]

Pre season or not the team should be set up to try and win even if it is only to get them in the correct frame of mind for the season ahead.

[stevegrant]

Because of course 4-4-2 is the only formation that works as an attacking formation in football.

[John B]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

 

Very Similar to the 2003 Cup Final I would have thought where we never seemed to believe we could win after that huge defeat to Arsenal.

 

 

Lets face it we are a Div1 team against a Champions League and as I heard Pardew say we should not be playing teams like Ajax and hoping to win

 

A 2 1 defeat would have been pretty good but we gave other players an oppurtunity to play in front of a large crowd against Ajax

 

I dont think last weeks game was important it was just a celebration of survival however all the next games as you suggest are important and lets see what happens then.

Edited 21 July, 2009 by John B

[scott_saints]

Shamrock Rovers? Don't think they're a part time team??

[gordonToo]

Best to save the rants for end September when we should have a much clearer idea as to where we're heading. If Pardew is the real thing then we will see a team playing to its strengths instead of to a formation as you suggested earlier. The problem is at the moment the team's strengths are an inability to both score and defend. Fresh blood is urgently required.

[BotleySaint]

We played fine first half. Then we started subbing players, as you do in pre-season, to give everyone a runout. Which weakened the team (of course) and so we let in some more goals. Second half perhaps was a waste of time, but not if 4-5 players got some fitness time?

 

I don't agree we gave up.

[Thedelldays]

ffs

[Seaford Saint]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

The press, the tv, a big crowd, the new manager and most importantly the new owner at his first match.

 

What did we do, picked a side and formation that couldn't compete and tried to keep the score down.

 

On that day something else was needed to fuel the optimism certainly not accepting defeat.

 

Last night I watched a little Irish part time team take on Real Madrid including Ronaldo and give it a right go losing 1-0.

 

Over the years I've watched little clubs every season turning over big clubs in the cups, they didn't do it by surrendering, they gave it their best shot.

 

We don't seem to know how to give it our best shot, the smell of apathy and defeat is all over St Mary's.

 

Alan Pardew sounds as though he comes from the right school with a we are going to win attitude.

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

As a supporter I've had enough of coming to St Mary's week in, week out and watching players and managers going through the motions.

 

Last Saturday was a disgrace and should be seen as such, if it hadn't been for Kelvin Davis Ajax could have got 10 with a defensive formation FFS.

 

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

Complete and utter tosh.....sometimes people on here amaze me!!!

[Scummer]

We played fine first half. Then we started subbing players, as you do in pre-season, to give everyone a runout. Which weakened the team (of course) and so we let in some more goals. Second half perhaps was a waste of time, but not if 4-5 players got some fitness time?

 

I don't agree we gave up.

 

Agree 100%. We did fine when we had a stronger team on the pitch, and faded when we made loads of subs. Not the first time that's ever happened, and it won't be the last.

 

It was a pre season exhibition match, no point over analysing it.

[chrisobee]

Complete and utter tosh.....sometimes people on here amaze me!!!

 

Only sometimes !!!

[dubai_phil]

Agree with Derry in many ways.

 

We've had so much attention on "other things" these past years that the whole "running of the football side" seems to have become some sort of weird 'Multi-National Corporation" process driven operation.

 

All very professional, nice players lounge at Staplewood with Schreiber furniture and PlayStations, but it just seemed that it was all about following some sort of rule book.

 

No passion, no invention, no real blood and guts within the entire organisation. All very well trained soundbites.

 

I was against a "young manager" coming in as I felt we needed somebody who really knew the ropes and would not settle for all this "corporate style cr*p" - I wanted WGS to come back as I felt he had that spark, the passion, but AP also fits the bill, experienced, has seen different types of set up and has the mandate to make complete changes.

 

Enough kissing the badge on the shirt nonsense, time to prepare the teams to PLAY for the shirt

[eurosaint]

Pardew has already said that he wants to instill a 'winning' mentality so it seems that he has picked up on this straightaway, which is great !

I still think though that it's a bit unfair on Henderson getting the flak when he was only thrown in as an emergency measure after Wotte was sacked !

[INFLUENCED.COM]

tbf to the OP I kind of understand where he is coming from(although not there Saturday) when I used to play and on the rare occassion I do now I hate to lose, friendly ? what is a friendly ? a charity match is one thing and I understand the stroll that it becomes but pre season matches should be entered into with the same frame of mind as any game, those players should have been out to show the new manager, the crowd, the new owner exactly what their all about(in a positive way), after all Saturdays game was for a trophy.

[John B]

Agree with Derry in many ways.

 

We've had so much attention on "other things" these past years that the whole "running of the football side" seems to have become some sort of weird 'Multi-National Corporation" process driven operation.

 

All very professional, nice players lounge at Staplewood with Schreiber furniture and PlayStations, but it just seemed that it was all about following some sort of rule book.

 

No passion, no invention, no real blood and guts within the entire organisation. All very well trained soundbites.

 

I was against a "young manager" coming in as I felt we needed somebody who really knew the ropes and would not settle for all this "corporate style cr*p" - I wanted WGS to come back as I felt he had that spark, the passion, but AP also fits the bill, experienced, has seen different types of set up and has the mandate to make complete changes.

 

Enough kissing the badge on the shirt nonsense, time to prepare the teams to PLAY for the shirt

 

I think we need a strong professional manager like Pardew not a passionaite one as they seem to lose it when things go wrong in our current situation.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I think we need a strong professional manager like Pardew not a passionaite one as they seem to lose it when things go wrong in our current situation.

 

I think we will see plenty of passion from Pardew

[SaintDonkey]

Performances in friendlies like that against Ajax can only really be judged on the first half. After that the shape is disrupted by substitutions.

 

In the first half we scored a good goal and conceded a dubious penalty. To be honest we did better tha I expected!

[Foxstone]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

The press, the tv, a big crowd, the new manager and most importantly the new owner at his first match.

 

What did we do, picked a side and formation that couldn't compete and tried to keep the score down.

 

On that day something else was needed to fuel the optimism certainly not accepting defeat.

 

Last night I watched a little Irish part time team take on Real Madrid including Ronaldo and give it a right go losing 1-0.

 

Over the years I've watched little clubs every season turning over big clubs in the cups, they didn't do it by surrendering, they gave it their best shot.

 

We don't seem to know how to give it our best shot, the smell of apathy and defeat is all over St Mary's.

 

Alan Pardew sounds as though he comes from the right school with a we are going to win attitude.

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

As a supporter I've had enough of coming to St Mary's week in, week out and watching players and managers going through the motions.

 

Last Saturday was a disgrace and should be seen as such, if it hadn't been for Kelvin Davis Ajax could have got 10 with a defensive formation FFS.

 

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

 

I agree with that !

 

Instilling a winning mentality is an absolute fundamental towards building a successful team, and this is an area sadly bereft since the days of WGS especially sliding to greater depths during the time of Idiot George !

 

Pards seems to be a man who recognises the importance of this and builds his management style around this underpin !

Reading and Westham under his charge always had a go and always played confidently -

I hope he can reverse past damages to build that positive mentality with us.

[rolosfc]

I disagree with the opinion that we 'surrendered' and 'accepted defeat'. The team was lined up ina way to prevent Ajax from playing their game, which for the first half largely worked. Rasiak held the ball up fairly well and the 3 in midfield worked hard allowing lallana and mills to get forward.

 

IMO it was bringing on Saga that changed things. He cannot play as a lone striker as he cannot hold the ball up, from then on we struggled and Ajax got into their passing game.

 

But lets be realistic, it is pre-season and they are a much better side than us. Lets wait til the seasons started at least before people start ranting about a lack of effort.

[thesaint sfc]

Yep. League 2 here we come. There really is no hope for any of us.

[John B]

I think we will see plenty of passion from Pardew

 

Sorry dont think passion is key to success myself

 

Just look at Cappello he has done wonders with England in a calm and measured way taking no rubbish from the players

 

Just like Sir Alf

[DT]

I suspect Ajax would have put 4 past Real Madrid too on the strength of their performance last night.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Sorry dont think passion is key to success myself

 

Not by itself, of course other qualities need to exist and I believe AP has many.

[Big Bad Bob]

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

 

Tell you what Derry, and I've said this before, if you know so ****ing much (and you have all your badges) why aren't you a coach, sorry, manager for a Premier League or Championship team?

Edited 21 July, 2009 by Big Bad Bob

[Charlie Wayman]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

The press, the tv, a big crowd, the new manager and most importantly the new owner at his first match.

 

What did we do, picked a side and formation that couldn't compete and tried to keep the score down.

 

On that day something else was needed to fuel the optimism certainly not accepting defeat.

 

Last night I watched a little Irish part time team take on Real Madrid including Ronaldo and give it a right go losing 1-0.

 

Over the years I've watched little clubs every season turning over big clubs in the cups, they didn't do it by surrendering, they gave it their best shot.

 

We don't seem to know how to give it our best shot, the smell of apathy and defeat is all over St Mary's.

 

Alan Pardew sounds as though he comes from the right school with a we are going to win attitude.

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

As a supporter I've had enough of coming to St Mary's week in, week out and watching players and managers going through the motions.

 

Last Saturday was a disgrace and should be seen as such, if it hadn't been for Kelvin Davis Ajax could have got 10 with a defensive formation FFS.

 

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

 

It was TRAINING FFS! A prcatice match, just to get blokes off the meat pies and in the gym - nothing more, nothing less!

 

Stop taking yourself so seriously.

[Clifford Nelson]

Derry is quite right. Not that we have the team at the moment to have a go at a top side, but the acceptance of defeat is cringeworthy.

 

Stewart Henderson's interview, that results don't matter, it has only been a few friendlies, and that the team is well prepared for the season tells a lot about what is wrong behind the scenes. I can't imagine that AP can accept that kind of complacency, which was in stark contrast to his own comments.

 

However "well respected" SH might be his comments are what feed players from the academy, through the reserves and into the first team. He's found a way of dealing with defeat by not letting it hurt too much, and has forgotten that football is a competitive game which is nothing without winning. The truth is that we would even have accepted the RL regime if the team had been winning.

 

I think there are people behind the scenes who ought to fear for their jobs.

[John B]

Derry is quite right. Not that we have the team at the moment to have a go at a top side, but the acceptance of defeat is cringeworthy.

 

Stewart Henderson's interview, that results don't matter, it has only been a few friendlies, and that the team is well prepared for the season tells a lot about what is wrong behind the scenes. I can't imagine that AP can accept that kind of complacency, which was in stark contrast to his own comments.

 

However "well respected" SH might be his comments are what feed players from the academy, through the reserves and into the first team. He's found a way of dealing with defeat by not letting it hurt too much, and has forgotten that football is a competitive game which is nothing without winning. The truth is that we would even have accepted the RL regime if the team had been winning.

 

I think there are people behind the scenes who ought to fear for their jobs.

 

I totally disagree with your post if the result mattered he would not have put on so many subs I would have thought

 

Accepting defeat is an important factor in life it is not easy to take but I was very impressed with both Lee Westwood and Rick Ponting recently.

Edited 21 July, 2009 by John B

[dubai_phil]

I think we need a strong professional manager like Pardew not a passionaite one as they seem to lose it when things go wrong in our current situation.

 

I think the key issue is "Balance"

 

For example, nickh & myself had plenty of passion at the Forum match, heck I even had 4 matches experience with Coombe Bissett FC many years ago!

 

Wigley had "coaching skills" but no experience and no passion.

 

Burley seemed to have experience but no passion

 

Tisdale seems to have a BIT of everything, but in our situation not enough of everything (IMHO).

 

So what I have READ so far is that Pardew has the experience, he has (thanks Pichards) some ideas of how to get the team thinking in training, so some coaching nous, and seems to have some passion as seen in his "laying down the rules".

 

Balance - what we missed on and off the field (and on here) for many years

[dubai_phil]

Derry is quite right. Not that we have the team at the moment to have a go at a top side, but the acceptance of defeat is cringeworthy.

 

Stewart Henderson's interview, that results don't matter, it has only been a few friendlies, and that the team is well prepared for the season tells a lot about what is wrong behind the scenes. I can't imagine that AP can accept that kind of complacency, which was in stark contrast to his own comments.

 

However "well respected" SH might be his comments are what feed players from the academy, through the reserves and into the first team. He's found a way of dealing with defeat by not letting it hurt too much, and has forgotten that football is a competitive game which is nothing without winning. The truth is that we would even have accepted the RL regime if the team had been winning.

 

I think there are people behind the scenes who ought to fear for their jobs.

 

You know I am sure that is word for word what was said at the start of LAST season.

 

While I have no idea about Derry's view of setting the side up for failure or whether the "friendly" was "important" or not, the fundamental issue about a malaise within the mental attitude and general approach is something really important and I think he has a point.

[eelpie]

It is a mental thing they have been brainwashed into believing they are better than what they are.

Hard work, pride and ability must come in equal amounts

 

Weird, isn't it.

They think they are so good that they think they can play brilliantly despite losing.

[saint1977]

Agree 100%. We did fine when we had a stronger team on the pitch, and faded when we made loads of subs. Not the first time that's ever happened, and it won't be the last.

 

It was a pre season exhibition match, no point over analysing it.

 

I think it was more productive and the players will have learned more from Saturday and the Hearts game than another 7-0 beating of a Swedish 5th division side and the coaching staff and players on the lash afterwards. It certainly will have got them fitter and it sounds like Pardew will ensure the players train properly for the first time in years.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Got to agree with Derry's points at least in a general sense. It must be blatantly clear to all that the squad has for some 3-4 seasons been poorly prepared and coaching been at less than sub-optimum. Whether that's due to staff being given jobs they cannot handle is debatable and in Hendersons case there is a case IMO, however that does not detract from the fact that the team have had a losing mentality and have had for some time. I think even back to the Redknapp days he said something like "this club has the quietest changing room I've ever experienced".

[kpturner]

Derry, paragraphs can have more than one sentence in them you know ;-)

[SFC Forever]

Pardew has already said that he wants to instill a 'winning' mentality so it seems that he has picked up on this straightaway, which is great !

I still think though that it's a bit unfair on Henderson getting the flak when he was only thrown in as an emergency measure after Wotte was sacked !

 

Henderson had the chance to show Pardew that he new the players and how to get them playing. Not to pick a team that conceded too much space and didn't really seem to be at home with the system chosen.

I have supported us for well over 50 years and I want to see us trying to win a game first and and foremost. To win you have to score and to do that you need to be able to keep the ball first and learn how to attack second. Then you pick a couple of players who know where the opponents goal is and tell them to shoot. It is not that bloody complicated is it.

[St Landrew]

Derry, I hope you'll remember that if Saints win their first 3 matches of the new season, and are on -1 points, that you look at the overall picture and not the fact that we're still bottom of League 1.

[maddog]

stupid post - WE WERE PLAYING AJAX (FOR GODS SAKE)

[Clifford Nelson]

You know I am sure that is word for word what was said at the start of LAST season.

 

While I have no idea about Derry's view of setting the side up for failure or whether the "friendly" was "important" or not, the fundamental issue about a malaise within the mental attitude and general approach is something really important and I think he has a point.

 

The Ajax game is of no long term importance, but the attitude is everything.

 

I have been banging on about "the winning habit" in the forum with little interest generated, which made me delighted to hear AP's first comment. WGS temporarily brought us out of this terrible "it'll be alright on the night" attitude and then we slid back into it again. Our players have been going out celebrating after losing games, and their coaches have been condoning it!

 

The signings we desperately need will mean nothing unless we change the way we are looking at things behind the scenes. The SH interview confirmed everything I'd feared was going on, but with AP I've finally got hope.

[smarmy]

We were playing Ajax! That is Ajax Amsterdam, you know, in the Champion's League and all that. We are a League 1 side, with a squad in severe need of a bit of rebuilding. Basically, we started well, then they got into their stride and started dominating more and more. They were winning all the 1 on 1s, and so of course you start to get sucked backwards to help out other players or cover for them. It wasn't intentional!

 

And what is the obsession with 442, which can be extremely defensive or attacking depending on the personnel and how it's played. I don't think the formation we played worked that well, but that is because Wotton was swamped and thus looked bad. IMO we should have played him AND Gillet as defensive midfielders, then played Mills and James out wide and Lallana behind Rasiak, if we were going to start with those 11 players. Real lack of pace and no proper wingers, though.

[londonsaint1604]

We went 1-0 up and had a number of other chances including when we hit the bar. Also we looked threatening from some of the set-pieces.

 

The game was a warm up featuring a lot of youngsters against Ajax, I wouldn't worry about it too much!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

It was TRAINING FFS! A prcatice match, just to get blokes off the meat pies and in the gym - nothing more, nothing less!

 

Stop taking yourself so seriously.

 

 

And there was me thinking is was a prestige match - with a trophy awarded to the winners - to honour one of Saints finest managers.

 

Pardew has already talked about getting a "winning mentality" and imo that includes friendlies against one of Europe's better sides. Had we won there would have been a lot of chest thumping.

Edited 21 July, 2009 by Fitzhugh Fella

[benjii]

Last Saturday we surrendered and accepted defeat before the match even started.

 

The press, the tv, a big crowd, the new manager and most importantly the new owner at his first match.

 

What did we do, picked a side and formation that couldn't compete and tried to keep the score down.

 

On that day something else was needed to fuel the optimism certainly not accepting defeat.

 

Last night I watched a little Irish part time team take on Real Madrid including Ronaldo and give it a right go losing 1-0.

 

Over the years I've watched little clubs every season turning over big clubs in the cups, they didn't do it by surrendering, they gave it their best shot.

 

We don't seem to know how to give it our best shot, the smell of apathy and defeat is all over St Mary's.

 

Alan Pardew sounds as though he comes from the right school with a we are going to win attitude.

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

As a supporter I've had enough of coming to St Mary's week in, week out and watching players and managers going through the motions.

 

Last Saturday was a disgrace and should be seen as such, if it hadn't been for Kelvin Davis Ajax could have got 10 with a defensive formation FFS.

 

The simple fact is Henderson bottled it, the team should have been set up 4-4-2 and given it a go.

 

Any coach or player who doesn't grasp this should be cleared out now and I'm hope will be.

 

Spot on and exactly what I was saying throughout most of the match!

[Saint Fan CaM]

And there was me thinking is was a prestige match - with a trophy awarded to the winners - to honour one of Saints finest managers.

 

Pardew has already talked about getting a "winning mentality" and imo that includes friendlies against one of Europe's better sides. Had we won there would have been a lot of chest thumping.

 

 

Absolutely spot on the money there Duncan. And how much extra feelgood factor would that have bought the team and the supporters?! Can't dismiss winning - it needs to become a habit.

[benjii]

Henderson turned the whole thing into an utterly pointless exercise from a footballing perspective. I just hope Mr Liebherr wasn't too bored by the whole thing.

 

Anyway, we have Pardew now so onwards and upwards....

[rpb]

[quote=derry;387968

 

For thirty years under Ted and Lawrie every Saints side gave it their best shot win, lose, or draw that is what I demand from them from now on.

 

A nice thought but it's simple untrue.

[CB Saint]

Derry, I think your rant is slightly premature. If in ,say, two months nothing has changed then fair enough I would agree with your post whole heartedly. But just because our club has changed hands, it doesn't necessarily translate to an immediate improvement on the pitch. Two weeks ago the club and the players were it a very bad place. It will take time to change that.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Irrelevant game. Different players playing a different way before too long. Take a chill pill.