4-5-1 On Saturday Please

[View From The Top]

It works, gives us more options, imposes our style, gives AL space to operate without leaving huge gaps behind him and allows impact players to exploit tired legs later in the game.

 

Starting with 4-4-2 doesn't suit our personnel at the moment.

[Matthew Le God]

People seem to forget we had just beaten...

 

Charlton 2-1 with 442

 

Bristol Rovers 3-2 with 442

 

MK Dons 3-1 with 442 (was losing 1-0 with 451 until changed to 442 and we got 3 goals)

 

So Pardew WAS NOT changing a winning formula he was sticking to one.

Edited 17 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God

[yorkie]

The problem for AP has been Connolly wanting to play - and with his scoring record it was worth a try.

 

However I'm a firm believer that with 2-up front we panic and hoof the long ball. I noticed at the games I attended playing 4-5-1 makes us pass and play. The extra man in the middle seems to give everyone more time on the ball and our passing is much better.

 

The problem I see it is we need the Connolly's of this world to "poach" - but with only 4 in the middle we struggle to pass to him in the box! He's not a target man - but a valuable member of the squad. He can come on with fresh legs when defenders are tired - however the defenders never seem to tire when only outjumping a shorty from the hoof!

 

I think we play much better as a unit - and clearly the team seems more settled in that formation!

[West End Saint]

4 5 1 for me to it gives us a chance to get a foothold in the game then change it if we have to Connoly is a great impact sub to bring on when the space is opening up.

 

I think Pards felt after Connoly scoring a couple at Brizzle he owed him a start but we need to get back to what works best & gets us points.

 

With lallana & Antonio starting we are way to open 4 4 2 & the full backs get no protection that then pulls the centre backs out of position & we are in trouble to get the best out of lallana & to be able to forgive him his defensive play we need a holding midfielder.

 

Having a player like Wotton breaking up play also give Spiderman a bit more time on the ball to pull the strings.

 

Pardew is no mug if we can see it so can he we will be 4 5 1 Saturday

[Scummer]

I think 4-4-2 was the cause of our defensive problems on Saturday. The extra man in midfield usually gives us a bit more cover playing 4-5-1. 4-4-2 also made us too predictable going forward.

[jam]

People seem to forget we had just beaten...

 

Charlton 2-1 with 442

 

Bristol Rovers 3-2 with 442

 

MK Dons 3-1 with 442 (was losing 1-0 with 451 until changed to 442 and we got 3 goals)

 

So Pardew WAS NOT changing a winning formula he was sticking to one.

 

No. The winning formula was starting with one up front and changing it when we needed it and it suited us.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

The problem for AP has been Connolly wanting to play - and with his scoring record it was worth a try.

 

However I'm a firm believer that with 2-up front we panic and hoof the long ball. I noticed at the games I attended playing 4-5-1 makes us pass and play. The extra man in the middle seems to give everyone more time on the ball and our passing is much better.

 

The problem I see it is we need the Connolly's of this world to "poach" - but with only 4 in the middle we struggle to pass to him in the box! He's not a target man - but a valuable member of the squad. He can come on with fresh legs when defenders are tired - however the defenders never seem to tire when only outjumping a shorty from the hoof!

 

I think we play much better as a unit - and clearly the team seems more settled in that formation!

 

But that is the exact opposite of what advocates of 424 have all been saying on here - that for some reason when we have 451 we don't pass it but lump it to Lambert up there on his own, and we only start passing when we've reverted to 424. That's before the Brighton game - but then people always seem to be able to change their opinion radically according to the result of the last game.

 

In my view our main problem still is we have slow defenders and Brighton were quick and snappy, and exploited it to the full.

KD said in the Echo that we "reverted to old failings" - how can that be when 3 out of 4 of the back line are new players?

The problem is mainly lack of pace and irrespective of personnel that has been the problem for goodness knows how long. Even Harding was shown up for pace for one of Brighton's goals, accentuated by his failure to anticipate the ball played inside him.

Edited 17 November, 2009 by hughieslastminutegoal

[JustMike]

4-5-1 will work against some teams and not others, just like 4-4-2 will. One of the main things i like about the 4-5-1 (which is not just plain 4-5-1 either, its very interchangeable) is that AL plays so much better and its flexible giving us the more attacking 4-4-2 option if needed

[John B]

It does not matter what system is played if the players have a bad day.

 

I did not watch the match but understand Trotman had a poor game but he has played well in both 442 and 451 formations

[Lazlo78]

It does not matter what system is played if the players have a bad day.

 

I did not watch the match but understand Trotman had a poor game but he has played well in both 442 and 451 formations

 

Agree, personal mistakes is seldomly down to the formation. I don't care about 4-5-1, 4-4-2 or even the newfound 3-4-1-2 - I just want Pardew to choose the right players and give them the right instructions for any specific game. One game at a time.

[Huntingdon]

If we play 4-4-2 there needs to be 2 changes

 

Schneiderlin needs to be dropped, he has no idea how to protect the back 4

 

Lallana needs to play as the 2nd striker, because he goes AWOL when being asked to play left midfield in a rigid formation

[S-Clarke]

It does not matter what system is played if the players have a bad day.

 

I did not watch the match but understand Trotman had a poor game but he has played well in both 442 and 451 formations

 

I agree, alot of focus is put on ''which formation wins us games'' - but IMO, if you have the players with enough quality, you'll win enough games anyway - regardless of the formation.

[S-Clarke]

If we play 4-4-2 there needs to be 2 changes

 

Schneiderlin needs to be dropped, he has no idea how to protect the back 4

 

Lallana needs to play as the 2nd striker, because he goes AWOL when being asked to play left midfield in a rigid formation

 

if we do - i'd put Connolly and antonio to the bench, bring on Papa and (if fit enough) Murty.

 

Stick Lloydy in the midfield and push hammond and morgan into advanced positions.

[NickG]

sure Pardew will sort it out!

[The Kraken]

I agree, alot of focus is put on ''which formation wins us games'' - but IMO, if you have the players with enough quality, you'll win enough games anyway - regardless of the formation.

 

It does not matter what system is played if the players have a bad day.

 

I did not watch the match but understand Trotman had a poor game but he has played well in both 442 and 451 formations

 

Exactly right. It's not so much about formations as it is about ensuring players do their jobs. We'll never win games if 6 of 7 of our players have an off day, and the formation they line up in is irrelevant to that. The Brighton game was awful, we were under par all over the pitch, but 451, 442, 424 or whatever wouldn't have changed that.

[beancounter saint]

It's obvious to me that the solution is to get Liebherr to pay off the league to allow us to play 12 men in a 452 formation, thus having the best of both worlds!

[Smirking_Saint]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.

 

Get a grip guys.

[NickG]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.Get a grip guys.

 

probably the fairest summary.

[VectisSaint]

Said it somewhere else, start off 4-5-1 and change to 4-4-2 for the 2nd half. Works a treat.

[Draino76]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.

 

Get a grip guys.

 

Absolutely. We should not be playing a 4-5-1 at home FFS unless it is against prem/championship opposition.

[Smirking_Saint]

Absolutely. We should not be playing a 4-5-1 at home FFS unless it is against prem/championship opposition.

 

Oh no, don't get me wrong i quite like us playing 4-5-1 to start, it enables us to stiffle opposition and dominate the game, we then have the option of moving to 4-4-2 if this is not working but it will not work every time.

 

My post was really because of a thread i think only last week moaning at 4-5-1 and wanting 4-4-2.

 

Some of us are very fickle on this board

[Scummer]

Some of us are very fickle on this board

 

Or maybe it's just different people? I haven't seen any of the people who were loudly requesting we switch to 4-4-2 now saying we should play 4-5-1.

[solentstars]

Said it somewhere else, start off 4-5-1 and change to 4-4-2 for the 2nd half. Works a treat.

 

its been fine up to now and hope we go back to the formation which has been very good up to now.

the brighton game showed up that we need to be flexible on systems rather than a rigid 4-4-2 system.

[Smirking_Saint]

Or maybe it's just different people? I haven't seen any of the people who were loudly requesting we switch to 4-4-2 now saying we should play 4-5-1.

 

Probably, i can't actually remember who it was :smt040

[bungle]

Absolutely. We should not be playing a 4-5-1 at home FFS unless it is against prem/championship opposition.

 

4-5-1 is the best formation in football. Sadly, the thicko Brits have been fed it as a defensive formation, but it is actually very attacking. More options than 4-4-2. But the thicko Brits like their 4-4-2 for no reason.

[Arizona]

4-5-1 is the best formation in football. Sadly, the thicko Brits have been fed it as a defensive formation, but it is actually very attacking. More options than 4-4-2. But the thicko Brits like their 4-4-2 for no reason.

 

*sigh*

 

Do we really need to go through all the succesful teams who have played 4-4-2 again?

[Draino76]

4-5-1 is the best formation in football. Sadly, the thicko Brits have been fed it as a defensive formation, but it is actually very attacking. More options than 4-4-2. But the thicko Brits like their 4-4-2 for no reason.

 

I liked the 4-4-2 that we changed to from 4-5-1 when we were 1-0 down against MK Dons. I also prefered when we changed from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 when we were 2-0 down against Leyton Orient.

[View From The Top]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.

 

Get a grip guys.

 

Never heard me bleat about 4-4-2 as I think it doesn't suit our players.

 

4-5-1 works better IMHO.

[the saint in winchester]

It's a flexible 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3 when we are attacking, 4-5-1 when defending or stifling. It serves us well. We have sometimes had to go for goals in the second half and then putting on an extra forward has focused us on attack.

But I like to see us with a defensive midfielder (Wotton) protecting the back 4, Hammond and Schneiderlin in the central midfield, with Papa and Lallana supporting Lambo and/or supporting the central midfielders.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Start with 4-4-2 and is clear that we have no plan B and become too predictable.

 

Start with 4-5-1 and 2nd half unleash the 4-4-2. Teams in L1 will not be able to cope with the tactical change and we can finally get out of the bottom 4.

[the saint in winchester]

Start with 4-4-2 and is clear that we have no plan B and become too predictable.

 

Start with 4-5-1 and 2nd half unleash the 4-4-2. Teams in L1 will not be able to cope with the tactical change and we can finally get out of the bottom 4.

 

As you say, Scottish man, so shall it be.

[PokingFun]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.

 

Get a grip guys.

 

Pretty much an 'off' first half hour. After that spell we still dominated the game and missed a couple of really decent chances. Their goal for the third was a result of us pushing for the equalizer. I don't think the panic button needs pressing just yet as at times we still played some neat stuff and created chances. Just have to learn to switch on early in both halves of the game and make the most of our chances and we'll be fine.

[eelpie]

It works, gives us more options, imposes our style, gives AL space to operate without leaving huge gaps behind him and allows impact players to exploit tired legs later in the game.

 

Starting with 4-4-2 doesn't suit our personnel at the moment.

 

..and Papa starting first.

[dune]

You lot are having a f*cking laugh !!!!!!!! What happened to the 'oh no not 4-5-1' !!!! We need to play 4-4-2 ????

 

IMO the game against brighton was not the formation it was due to tired minds, legs and the fact that we just had an off game.

 

Get a grip guys.

 

At last, someone makes a sensible post.

 

Too much emphasis is put on formations on here. If we're playing Lambert, Connelly and Lallana we've essentially got 3 players who can hit the back of the net and as such we are playing 3 up front every game anyway.

[niceandfriendly]

4-5-1 is the best formation in football. Sadly, the thicko Brits have been fed it as a defensive formation, but it is actually very attacking. More options than 4-4-2. But the thicko Brits like their 4-4-2 for no reason.

 

Wow. I have seen some ignorant and moronic posts on this forum, but this tops the lot. Well done Sir!

[Gordon Mockles]

If we play 4-4-2 there needs to be 2 changes

 

Schneiderlin needs to be dropped, he has no idea how to protect the back 4

 

Lallana needs to play as the 2nd striker, because he goes AWOL when being asked to play left midfield in a rigid formation

 

Lallana was terrible on the wing, continually leaving Harding exposed (as Mellis does when he attacks and never tracks back!) by cutting in which has happened all season. We need a wide man to sit on the touchline. All our forward play emanated from the right wing.

 

I agree with you on both points, Morgan was awful, miscuing passes, lightweight and anonymous for most of the game. No protection whatsoever to the p*ss poor back 4.

 

Still, I see there's this thread calling for the change back to 4-5-1. Love the irony! I wonder how many of the people on here demanding Pardew change to 4-4-2 from the kick off have commented, made a complete U-turn or gone completely silent?!

[Gordon Mockles]

Wow. I have seen some ignorant and moronic posts on this forum, but this tops the lot. Well done Sir!

 

I think you'll find Bungle likes to talk sh*t, antagonise and bait people on here! Obviously the only way he can get people to listen to his bizarre opinions!

[dune]

Teams of players very rarely give 100% in games. Quantifying the effort in %age terms isn't an exact science, but for arguments sake let's say most teams give 80% most games.

 

A week ago we'd have played Brighton and they'd have given 70% and we'd have given 80% and we'd have won. If Brighton had given 80% and we'd given 80% we would still have won because we are better than them.

 

With Brighton having a new manager they gave 100% whilst we gave our usual 80% and they made up for their disadvantage and won the game.

 

AP is a shrewd man and he will have warned the players that they needed to play at 100% to win, but they didn't and they will learn from Sundays defeat. I fully expect us to be focussed for our next game and normal service will be resumed.

[Window Cleaner]

4-4-2,4-5-1,4-3-2-1 it matters not when you have 2 central defenders gifting goals to the opposition.

Trotman was gash apparently and Jaidi apparently looked very cumbersome. Once a team takes a 2 goal lead you are basically shafted if they know what they're doing and park the bus in front of their goal. It's not so much about formation but giving away goals.We could play 10-0-0 but if someone f*cks up and gives away a softy ,it is of absolutely no avail.A team is only as good as it's weakest element and in this case it was Trotman.

[jam]

Wow. I have seen some ignorant and moronic posts on this forum, but this tops the lot. Well done Sir!

 

You've really not been looking hard enough!

[Saint Fan CaM]

We lost because they switched off thinking they were better than Brighton and the defence started to panic when they were exposed by Antonio and Lallana (causing Hammond and Schneiderlin to be pulled around too much). Nothing to do with whether we were playing 4-4-2... it was all down to the mentality starting the game. The wingers needed to be less cavalier basically in the 1st half.

[Fowllyd]

...but then people always seem to be able to change their opinion radically according to the result of the last game.

 

Most spot-on comment I've seen on here in a while...

[Nexstar]

4-5-1 wasn't working in quite a few games so Antonio and Connolly would come on, give the game some pace and we'd win it. In recent games, including Brighton, we started with those two and played 4-4-2 which didn't work on sunday. I'd also like to see 4-5-1 again (with waigo starting) on saturday, atleast then we have somewhere to turn if it isn't working.

[Scummer]

the defence started to panic when they were exposed by Antonio and Lallana . Nothing to do with whether we were playing 4-4-2.

 

Can you not see the link between those two statements? The reason the defence was exposed was because of the formation.

[Saint 76er]

We lost because they switched off thinking they were better than Brighton and the defence started to panic when they were exposed by Antonio and Lallana (causing Hammond and Schneiderlin to be pulled around too much). Nothing to do with whether we were playing 4-4-2... it was all down to the mentality starting the game. The wingers needed to be less cavalier basically in the 1st half.

 

With 451 we had Wotton positioned in front of the defence exactly to prevent opposition strikers exposing our slow central defenders the way Brighton did.

 

Wotton is not quick but reads the play well and can lay a few hefty tackles before they reach the penalty area and we know he's going to stay in position as he can't run anyway!

 

Much has been made of the midfield assets in 451, but it also makes our defence more solid and was working real well until we all clambered for Connelly to start...

[Bearsy]

I agree.

 

Every time we lose a game we should change the formation. When we run out of formations we should change the manager. When we run out of managers we can go after the board.

 

You know it makes sense.

[krissyboy31]

Starting 442 at home is all very well but we haven't got the midfield players to put up a solid barrier to protect our pedestrian back four. It works okay if we race into a lead and we can then change to a more solid 451 in order to close down the game. If we go behind and are chasing the game, we are very vulnerable to the counter attack. Better to start with a solid 451 and put on the pace and power against a tiring defence.

[derry]

We didn't play 4-4-2 against Brighton. We played 4 at the back, three in the middle - 2 centre midfielders and a wide right, two up front and Lallana all over the place.

 

We were narrow had no real shape, no threat from the left, allowed the defence to compact and double bank Antonio, it also left Harding exposed as our only left sided player whist Lallana showboated wherever he felt like. James lack of pace and an overworked left back, caused our centre backs to have too much to do against two quick strikers.

 

Until Lallana or somebody else plays like a proper left midfielder in front of Harding it doesn't matter a damn what formation the other players play.

 

We need to play a proper formation whatever it is without a single player doing their own thing. Brighton and Bristol Rovers exploited it and won't be the last.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

We didn't play 4-4-2 against Brighton. We played 4 at the back, three in the middle - 2 centre midfielders and a wide right, two up front and Lallana all over the place.

 

We were narrow had no real shape, no threat from the left, allowed the defence to compact and double bank Antonio, it also left Harding exposed as our only left sided player whist Lallana showboated wherever he felt like. James lack of pace and an overworked left back, caused our slow centre backs to have too much to do against two quick strikers.

 

Until Lallana or somebody else plays like a proper left midfielder in front of Harding it doesn't matter a damn what formation the other players play.

 

We need to play a proper formation whatever it is without a single player doing their own thing. Brighton and Bristol Rovers exploited it and won't be the last.

 

I think I agree with you. Hope you don't mind the insertion of slow

[Legod Third Coming]

Absolutely. We should not be playing a 4-5-1 at home FFS unless it is against prem/championship opposition.

 

This sums up a conviction that 4-5-1 is by definition defensive and necessitates the ball being pumped to an isolated front man.

 

Why does having two strikers but then two flat banks of four offer more of an attacking threat?

 

The 5 man midfield includes Antonio and Lallana. In my view it's equally attacking since there are 3 men going forward and 5 covering back.

 

It wears our opponents into the ground, stifles them creatively and at will we can switch it to suit ourselves.

 

I don't care what we play, but it's not fair on the system to cite it as being somehow impotent. Playing it and mixing it up we managed to win four games and score 13 goals in the process... I'll take that sort of defensive set up all season thanks.