A year ago...

[Guided Missile]

....I had the temerity to post this thread on our site.

 

Fast forward and I can't help thinking that if we could get past the deep seated prejudices and concentrate on the economic and footballing sense of ground sharing, someone from the Portsmouth FC will fly to Switzerland and discuss probably the only option that will save the club and provide our club with a much larger income to fund our development.

 

My interest was sparked by the news that the proposed Everton stadium has been kicked into touch. Read the article by Oliver Kay in the Times today. The reality will dawn on the two Liverpool clubs that the only way for them to survive and compete in the Premiership will be to share.

 

This is an interesting extract:

 

Going halves on grounds

Clubs sharing a stadium has never taken root in this country, but there are examples abroad.

San Siro, AC Milan and Inter Milan, capacity 80,018 They have shared a stadium for 62 years. Hosted Champions League finals, rugby matches and concerts.

Allianz Arena, Bayern Munich and 1860 Munich, 69,901 1860 Munich compete in Germany’s second tier, and with a considerably smaller fanbase to boot. The stadium, opened in 2005, will host the 2012 Champions League final.

Luzhniki Olympic Complex, Spartak Moscow and Torpedo Moscow, 78,360 Maybe the most famous artificial football pitch in the world, where John Terry slipped as he ran up to take a penalty in the Champions League final in 2008. They have shared the home for 15 years.

Maracanã, *Botafogo, Flamengo and Fluminense, 82,238 Brazil’s biggest and most famous stadium is home to three of Rio’s largest clubs. They share the ground not only with each other, but with volleyball matches, concerts and even a visit from the Pope. In 2016, the Maracanã will stage the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympic Games.

 

*I think Oliver Kay of the Times is wrong in this regard. Botafogo apparently play their home games at Estádio Olímpico João Havelange

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Guided Missile

[Nadia Sllim]

Havant and Waterlooville would be a good one for P*mp*y to share with! Liverpool and Everton should do it IMO.

[Saint Samuel]

Pompey fans really aren't going to like having to leave their own city to watch their home games. Its an idea, but never in a million years can I see Pompey playing their home games at St Marys, I can imagine now the trouble it would cause between fans.

[The Cat]

Agree it makes sense for Everton and Liverpool to share a ground as they both want/need a new one and can't afford to build one each. Also they're in the same city.

 

Don't see the need for us to share with Pompey. Do we need a 'much larger income' to fund our development, and would sharing with Pompey give us one?

 

We have a perfectly good (if a little dull) stadium already which could be extended by 2018 when we're in the Champions League and need to host World Cup matches.

 

Mind you, a shared super stadium smack bang inbetween Southampton and Portsmouth would provide one positive benefit. Fareham could be bulldozed to make room.

[sadoldgit]

It would make sense for clubs in the same vicinity but can't see it working for us.

[Give it to Ron]

Can you send John Westwood your seat number so he knows which one to urinate on.

 

I agree it makes sense but this is England and 'every mans home is his castle' and we are a mental territorial lot and would never be able to get past those prejudices you mentioned.

The West Ham - Millwall riots this year showed this country still has a long way to go before we could even consider ground sharing unless its with another sport like Rugby(but who wants a ruined pitch!)

[the saint in winchester]

I'm with you, Guided Missile - it makes sound economic sense to ground share. However, that is outweighed by prejudice and bitterness on both sides. Until that is overcome, it won't happen. Love your neighbour, the scriptures say ...

[slickmick]

All the clubs you mention all share the same City.

I can't ever see two seperate cities sharing grounds.

[Smirking_Saint]

Your having a laugh right ?? We have no need to ground share for a start, we currently own a very good modern stadium which covers our needs. On top of this we have the option of expansion should a need arise.

 

Staying away from the deeply rooted prejudices which both clubs have (i just could never see portsmouth fans agreeing to this, let alone respecting the place), there is just far too much distance to make this a viable option IMO.

 

I mean to get all of there fans over here they would have to order a 6 seater taxi, and imagine the cost of the fare ??

[Pancake]

Mr Kay is out of touch with Brazilian football, as Botafogo have had their own stadium since 2007.

[shurlock]

All the clubs you mention all share the same City.

I can't ever see two seperate cities sharing grounds.

 

True and for every city that operates a ground share, there is a city with two grounds - Bristol, Sheffield, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc. And there are as many foreign examples.

 

Groundsharing only makes sense when there are real economies of scale. There may be an argument for sharing when cities have two big teams in which each requires a massive stadium -Milan, Rome etc. Then, as a city, it makes less and less sense to build/support two expensive, environmentally contentious stadiums. But that doesn't apply with smaller clubs/stadiums.

Edited 27 November, 2009 by shurlock

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Pompey fans really aren't going to like having to leave their own city to watch their home games. Its an idea, but never in a million years can I see Pompey playing their home games at St Marys, I can imagine now the trouble it would cause between fans.

 

Couldn't we just buy their assets - I'm sure a few of their players would be good enough to get in the Saints team - that would also negate the need for Pompey to groundshare

[Pancake]

Actually, aren't Inter looking at building their own stadium in he next few years too, so moving away from this "share stadium" model?

[Guided Missile]

Groundsharing only makes sense when there are real economies of scale.

As I posted in the original thread:

 

"In fact, a lot of people from the M27 corridor from Chichester to Bournemouth, from the M3 corridor from Southampton to Basingstoke would go every week to see both teams. 45,000 capacity would be needed...and we may even end up with both clubs dominating the Premiership. Who knows?"

[Arizona]

....I had the temerity to post this thread on our site.

 

Fast forward and I can't help thinking that if we could get past the deep seated prejudices and concentrate on the economic and footballing sense of ground sharing, someone from the Portsmouth FC will fly to Switzerland and discuss probably the only option that will save the club and provide our club with a much larger income to fund our development.

 

My interest was sparked by the news that the proposed Everton stadium has been kicked into touch. Read the article by Oliver Kay in the Times today. The reality will dawn on the two Liverpool clubs that the only way for them to survive and compete in the Premiership will be to share.

 

This is an interesting extract:

 

Going halves on grounds

Clubs sharing a stadium has never taken root in this country, but there are examples abroad.

San Siro, AC Milan and Inter Milan, capacity 80,018 They have shared a stadium for 62 years. Hosted Champions League finals, rugby matches and concerts.

Allianz Arena, Bayern Munich and 1860 Munich, 69,901 1860 Munich compete in Germany’s second tier, and with a considerably smaller fanbase to boot. The stadium, opened in 2005, will host the 2012 Champions League final.

Luzhniki Olympic Complex, Spartak Moscow and Torpedo Moscow, 78,360 Maybe the most famous artificial football pitch in the world, where John Terry slipped as he ran up to take a penalty in the Champions League final in 2008. They have shared the home for 15 years.

Maracanã, Botafogo, Flamengo and Fluminense, 82,238 Brazil’s biggest and most famous stadium is home to three of Rio’s largest clubs. They share the ground not only with each other, but with volleyball matches, concerts and even a visit from the Pope. In 2016, the Maracanã will stage the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympic Games.

 

To put it simply, the reason ground sharing with Pompey wont work is:

 

San Siro - Shared by AC Milan and Inter Milan

 

Allianz Arena - Shared by Bayern Munich and 1860 Munich

 

Luzhniki - Shared by Spartak Moscow and Torpedo Moscow

 

Maracana - Shared by three of the biggest clubs in Rio

 

St Mary's Stadium - Shared by Southampton and er... Pompey Southampton?

 

Sharing a stadium is one thing, but there is no point in going to another city. Especially with Pompey as, let's be honnest, their attendances are crap enough. I doubt you'd get more than 10,000 fans regularly going to "home" games at SMS. It would make much more sense, both practically and financially to stay at Fratton.

[krissyboy31]

All the clubs you mention all share the same City.

I can't ever see two seperate cities sharing grounds.

 

I agree but I always thought The Liverpool/Everton thing made sense with the new Stanley Park ground proposed to be built slap bang in the middle of the two existing grounds (possibly with an Everton rather than Anfield area address), and Everton proposing to move out of town to Kirkby.

 

One end of the new stadium could and should be called the Kop and the other the Gwladys end. The Kop obviously being the home end when Liverpool play but the away end for Everton games.

[Toadhall Saint]

I don't share anything with that lot down the road so I would never even contemplate sharing SMS with them or anyone else!

[Fan The Flames]

What a rubbish idea, it make no more sense than sharing hospitals, town halls, train stations, libraries, parks. Its nothing to do with dislike just distance.

[Guided Missile]

The Allianz Arena in Munich is home to Bayern and 1860 Munich. Look at the way the Germans arrange the Stadium:

 

 

 

Allianz Arena is lit up in red when Bayern Munich play, in blue when 1860 Munich play and in white when in use by the German National Team.

 

1860 Munich play in the 2nd Tier of German Football, by the way...

[RedAndWhite91]

Course, it's a sound idea economically speaking, but never would I feel comfortable sharing my seat with a skate. We'd also have to scrap all the red decor and replace half of it with blue. It wouldn't be long before St. Mary's falls into the decrepit state Fratton is currently in, what with all (I use 'all' very loosely) them P*mpey fans coming down every other week.

 

Sorry, but it's a no from me, I'm out.

[Guided Missile]

Sharing a stadium is one thing, but there is no point in going to another city. Especially with Pompey as, let's be honnest, their attendances are crap enough. I doubt you'd get more than 10,000 fans regularly going to "home" games at SMS. It would make much more sense, both practically and financially to stay at Fratton.

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Guided Missile

[Joensuu]

There are a lot of obvious problems, especially if the ownership of the stadium were equal, but:

 

If Saints (well Leibherr) were the outright owner of an extended SMS, and Pompey were struggling to find somewhere to play once Krap Nottaf is sold from under them, I can see a rosy arrangement whereby they could rent SMS, increasing our income quite significantly. If the contract for the groundshare were worded in such a way that any damages caused to SMS while it is being used by Pompey need to be paid for in full (by the blue few), then I can't see a problem.

 

Imagine Pompey having to play games in a red & white stadium, emblazoned with Saints logos. Imagine their fans knowing that their very attendance at Pompey games is helping to improve the Saints squad. And worse still if they decide to rip up seats then they get hit by a big fat invoice...

 

I'd love it.

[Sold To The Man @ The Bar]

The thought of the P@mpy faithful drinking in Southampton every other week prior to a "Home" game would fill the local old bill and council with fear and dread. It would never happen while we are at SMS, besides there may be a restriction to the number of games that can be played, planning law and all that !! The thought of some bell ringing ***t sitting in my seat gives me the willies !!!

[Arizona]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

The whole idea of a city is that it is 0 minutes appart. It is one big entity with no space in between (appart from the odd river running through).

[Badger]

This idea might have had a sound foundation ten years ago.In truth we are not looking for,nor do we need a new stadium.

[Guided Missile]

I once saw the Saints play at Giants stadium, in New Jersey, in front of 75,000 fans. This stadium is home to two American football teams, the New York Jets and the New York Giants. So, we have two teams from New York, playing their home games in a different state.

 

The stadium is being replaced in 2010 by the Meadowlands Stadium, modelled on the Allianz Stadium in Munich, right down to the changing colour of the stadium and the potential sponsor of the new building (Allianz btw, for $30M, although the Jewish lobby in New York frightened them off).

 

This is worth a read.

 

Maybe our esteemed German owner will show the same Germanic pragmatism as they have in Munich. I have a feeling the "little Englanders" we have for a fanbase will happily p! $$ on any bonfire he lights and watch with pleasure as Pompey go out of business and we languish outside the Premiership for another 20 years.

 

Arsenal have shown that to make money and be successful you need a large crowd going every week. This part of the South could easily support 40,000 plus crowds for Premiership football, rock concerts and national games.

 

Meanwhile, Eastleigh Borough Council!!! spunk £32M on a hotel at the Rosebowl, where they are ecstatic if 20,000 turn up and the average gate for a league game is about 2,000....

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Guided Missile

[stockportsaint]

Can't see any need for it from our perspective, and therefore it would never happen. However it is interesting to note that Everton were the original tenants of Anfield, it would make perfect sense for Everton to take Anfield back if Liverpool move out to their bigger stadium, but given Liverpool's financial difficulties that'll not be for some time.

[SaintRobbie]

I'm not sure there's enough caravan parking spaces around SMS for Pompey fans to use it.

[aintforever]

Can only work if both clubs are in the same city, a shared "Solent" stadium built in Park Gate would be equally as unpopular with skates as it would Saints fans, it would only have to have a 10,000 capacity.

[Supersubpuckett]

The concept might make sense from certain viewpoints - like those of someone who has lost all sense of identity. In a world where local and regional characteristics are being wiped out, maintaining public symbols of such things are more important than ever.

[Kaiser Soze]

Ridiculous thread, lock/delete it.

[St Landrew]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

If distance within a conurbation was the only criterion, then there would be 3 London clubs at most. Not only has the idea to make economic sense to all parties involved, but the public will has to be there too. In the case of Pompey and Saints, it isn't.

[Matthew Le God]

Pretty much every example of ground sharing is from 2 clubs from the SAME city sharing a ground.

 

Pompey and Southampton are 20 miles apart.

 

It would be a policing nightmare having 20k Pompey fans in a city they don't like. With the two Milan clubs at least both sets of fans respect Milan. If 20k Pompey fans were in Southampton 23 times or more a year it would end in tears.

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God

[Guided Missile]

It would be a policing nightmare having 20k Pompey fans in a city they don't like. With the two Milan clubs at least both sets of fans respect Milan. If 20k Pompey fans were in Southampton 23 times or more a year it would end in tears.

Why can't we, as the great John Lennon said, "Give war a chance..."?

[Block 5]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc etc.....

 

You really do come out with some utter guff sometimes GM, and there again sometimes you produce some really great posts.

 

This thread falls into the former category.

[dubai_phil]

Put the OP into a different perspective GM.

 

Portsmouth get bought by someone with money and they survive in the PL. The owner plegdes to build the 45,000 seater stadium for the World Cup after all.

 

Meanwhile, the economic crisis enters it's bigger second phase causing havoc amongst European Banks and Heavy Industry. Through no fault of his own, Markus is forced to seek to liquidate assets and has no option but to agree to a ground share at the new Pompey World Cup stadium releasing SMS back to re-development to save his core businesses.....

 

Would any SAINTS fans travel to Poopey?

 

No, so the scenario of ground sharing is as likely as ML having to sell up in a fire sale

 

That is NOT to say it doesn't make financial sense, in fact a mega stadium could have been built half-way between the two cities and released money for the teams, but it won't happen thank God.

[Matthew Le God]

Why can't we, as the great John Lennon said, "Give war a chance..."?

 

John Lennon also said "I am the Walrus, we are the eggman coo coo ca choo"

 

Because football is modern tribalism and we are evolved apes and it is inbuilt.

 

As I said before every other ground share is two clubs from the same city, not two clubs from rival cities. Having 20k plus fans from another tribe on "your land" won't work.

 

Milan is the home city of AC Milan fans and Inter Fans. Southampton is not the home of any Portsmouth fans(well a tiny few) and tribal instincts will make any groundshare impossible.

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God

[dune]

Shared grounds make sense for same city clubs, but in the case of Saints and Pompey it'd never be a viable option.

[Marsdinho]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

There is nothing real about that - its all in your head....

 

Also, we dont need to increase out income at the moment. ML is rich enough for us.

 

Secondly, you list competition finals as a way of showing how sharing a stadium benefits the teams that own it...well, SMS has had 2 full international matches and one U21 game (with others to follow).

[benjii]

Oh dear. Feeling neglected, unappreciated, unloved?

[Pancake]

I once saw the Saints play at Giants stadium, in New Jersey, in front of 75,000 fans. This stadium is home to two American football teams, the New York Jets and the New York Giants. So, we have two teams from New York, playing their home games in a different state.

 

...yet still within the New York metropolitan area.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area

[RedAndWhite91]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

You on a wind up?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

What a fantastic waste of my time this thread has been.

[Fan The Flames]

Lets have regional stadiums where 20 or so clubs could play or all 92 could play at Wembley, it makes economic sense.

[Saint Samuel]

 

St Mary's Stadium - Shared by Southampton and er... Pompey Southampton?

 

 

When were in administration earlier this year I remember seeing an article in a national newspaper about the two clubs merging into one club, but the author obviously didn't understand the rivalries between the two cities and that it would never work.

[Matthew Le God]

In real terms, the idea that Portsmouth and Southampton are separate cities died when the M27 was built.

For all practical purposes, we are a conurbation that should be known as Solent City, two suburbs, 15 minutes by car, apart...

 

Manchester and Liverpool are a similar distance apart to Southampton/Portsmouth.

 

By your logic...

 

Does the M62 mean Manchester and Liverpool are the same city?

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God

[david in sweden]

The Allianz Arena in Munich is home to Bayern and 1860 Munich. Look at the way the Germans arrange the Stadium:

 

 

 

Allianz Arena is lit up in red when Bayern Munich play, in blue when 1860 Munich play and in white when in use by the German National Team.

 

1860 Munich play in the 2nd Tier of German Football, by the way...

 

 

 

Did you say " tier "? ... or " tyre " ?

The pics. of these arenas look very much like car tyres -don't they ?

[Guided Missile]

...yet still within the New York metropolitan area.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area

 

Exactly...as this abstract explains...

 

 

 

The Portsmouth Urban Area, in south-east Hampshire, includes the following components (as defined by the Office for National Statistics)

• Fareham
  
• Portchester
  
• Gosport
  
• Havant
  
• Lee-on-the-Solent
  
• Portsmouth
  
• Stubbington
  
• Waterlooville
  

Greater Portsmouth is an unofficial term sometimes used for the conurbation, but which sometimes refers only to Portsmouth, Havant and Waterlooville, and sometimes includes the whole of the Portsmouth Urban Area together with adjoining parts of West Sussex

The Portsmouth urban area can be looked at as part of a larger multi-centred conurbation also including Greater Southampton

 

South Hampshire or Solent City is a term used mainly to refer to the metropolitan area formed by the cities of Portsmouth and Southampton and their suburbs and commuter towns, in southern Hampshire, England region. PUSH (Partnership for Urban South Hampshire) is a partnership of local councils in this area to provide a more cohesive strategy for the area as a whole in key policy areas, and to act as pressure group for the area at the county and national level.

Edited 27 November, 2009 by Guided Missile

[SET]

....I had the temerity to post this thread on our site.

 

Fast forward and I can't help thinking that if we could get past the deep seated prejudices and concentrate on the economic and footballing sense of ground sharing, someone from the Portsmouth FC will fly to Switzerland and discuss probably the only option that will save the club and provide our club with a much larger income to fund our development.

 

My interest was sparked by the news that the proposed Everton stadium has been kicked into touch. Read the article by Oliver Kay in the Times today. The reality will dawn on the two Liverpool clubs that the only way for them to survive and compete in the Premiership will be to share.

 

This is an interesting extract:

 

Going halves on grounds

Clubs sharing a stadium has never taken root in this country, but there are examples abroad.

San Siro, AC Milan and Inter Milan, capacity 80,018 They have shared a stadium for 62 years. Hosted Champions League finals, rugby matches and concerts.

Allianz Arena, Bayern Munich and 1860 Munich, 69,901 1860 Munich compete in Germany’s second tier, and with a considerably smaller fanbase to boot. The stadium, opened in 2005, will host the 2012 Champions League final.

Luzhniki Olympic Complex, Spartak Moscow and Torpedo Moscow, 78,360 Maybe the most famous artificial football pitch in the world, where John Terry slipped as he ran up to take a penalty in the Champions League final in 2008. They have shared the home for 15 years.

Maracanã, *Botafogo, Flamengo and Fluminense, 82,238 Brazil’s biggest and most famous stadium is home to three of Rio’s largest clubs. They share the ground not only with each other, but with volleyball matches, concerts and even a visit from the Pope. In 2016, the Maracanã will stage the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympic Games.

 

*I think Oliver Kay of the Times is wrong in this regard. Botafogo apparently play their home games at Estádio Olímpico João Havelange

 

are you for real, what do they have in common with each other.

 

Bayern & 1860 - both from Munich

The Russians - both from Moscow

the Brazilians - all from rio

 

so where in your weird state of confusion do you think a club from the city of Southampton and a club from the city of Portsmouth share a ground.

[Guided Missile]

so where in your weird state of confusion do you think a club from the city of Southampton and a club from the city of Portsmouth share a ground.

The same weird state of confusion that believes that Manchester United is a Manchester Football Team, despite playing all its home games in Trafford.

 

Just to show how confused I am, I also believe that Trafford is a borough, about the same size as Southampton, from this abstract:

 

 

The Metropolitan Borough of Trafford is a metropolitan borough of Greater Manchester, England. It has a population of 211,800,[2] covers 41 square miles (106 km2),[3] and includes the towns of Altrincham, Partington, Sale, Stretford, and Urmston.