Standard of refs

[Olallana]

I dont believe in technology either, but I would like them to make the handball rule more clear so that every handball is a foul, deliberate or not.

Much easier for the ref to call and lot less discussion amongst fans, pundits and who ever.

 

In that case it would only not be given if the ref doesn´t see it, like today...

[Alain Perrin]

It is very easy to blame the officials and forget the role players play in trying to kid the referee.

 

For example with the Suarez trip yesterday, it's not like he hasn't got form for going down easily so, on some level, I can understand why a penalty wasn't given. Add it that the the ball was under control of another defender, outside the box and being run away from goal - by the letter of the law this is immaterial but undoubtedly have an influence.

 

Personally I think if you could stop players kidding the ref then the perceived standard would rise significantly. I'd have a panel review games for dubious dives etc. and impose retrospective bans on players (increasing if it was a game altering decision - e.g. dive for a penalty 5 match ban). This would soon stamp it out.

 

The handball in our game was more blatant and the only consideration is the closeness of the two players. Could he have moved his hand even if he wanted; I doubt it. Much as I would have liked it to be given I think it is a 50/50 - sometimes you get them, sometime you don't.

[trousers]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11700/9094265/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Southampton boss Mauricio Pochettino believes his side have been on the wrong end of a number of refereeing decisions this season due to their 'young, friendly image'.

The Saints have introduced a number of their homegrown academy players into the team at various points of the season with three of them in the starting line-up ahead of Sunday's 2-1 defeat at Everton.

Pochettino is convinced his side should have had at least two penalties at Goodison Park but insists they are in a long line of decisions which have gone against his team since August.

"I was angry about some of the refereeing decisions," he said. "There was not one, but actually two clear penalties not given to us.

"We have been suffering all season long. Many injustices have gone against us. It is easier to referee a Southampton side that are all young, friendly players.

"It is very easy to have decisions not go for us. It is a lot easier to have decisions to go against us. We just want Southampton to be refereed with the same rigour as all other clubs are judged.

[ottery st mary]

It was the same at Chelsea....We get easy bookings against us..this game and others..

 

Chelsea players...especially their number 7 Ramires.......many a dirty foul...not booked til later in the game after he had taken control and become MOM

 

Ramires should have been red carded by half time.

 

We do not get a fair deal ...especially when playing the Chelsea and other so called big teams..:x:x

[sandwichsaint]

Not sure technology would have helped yesterday - he has reportedly seen it - and then 'decided' it's not handball. The referee will always have to make a subjective judgement beyond the mere 'fact' of the ball hitting the hand.

 

I'm not sure about the criticisms of refs not keeping up with the game, the ref was well-placed for our incident and also the Chelsea one too and both were in the last few minutes of the game - possibly could be some mental fatigue involved? Do controversial incidents tend to happen late in games? Webb missed one in the first minute yesterday.....

 

I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer as to how to improve refereeing standards; the game is so fast, the stakes so high, for many players and managers 'cheating' is the norm, and the coverage at the top level is unremitting - 20 cameras a game, super slo-mo, HD, graphics boards etc etc. Unsurprisingly some referees make some mistakes sometimes. I'm not sure that 'technology' would help much, most mistakes appear to be the result of an 'incorrect' interpretation rather than the ref completely missing something.

 

I was gutted with yesterday's decision and would happily never have Clattenberg again ever, but don't kid yourself that we can just get rid of these refs and that there will be another 10-20 below who are ready to move up to that level. The top refs are there for a reason, they are the top refs available and they sit at the top of a pretty big pyramid, if there were better ones available they would be doing the job now.

[stevegrant]

Referees are prevented from taking charge of games involving certain teams - for example, teams they support (and their rivals), teams in their town/city of birth, etc. Could/should there be a case for referees who have instigated disciplinary proceedings against teams being kept off games involving those teams?

 

Cast your minds back to March this year, Mark Clattenburg gives Norwich a ridiculous last-minute penalty which then leads to a disciplinary charge against the club for failing to control our players (Pochettino also stormed onto the pitch after the game to confront Clattenburg). Since then, Clattenburg has refereed our games at Spurs (uneventful 1-0 defeat), Arsenal (where he gave them a penalty that no other referee would ordinarily give) and Everton yesterday (where he failed to give us a penalty for a clear handball, which he has admitted he saw).

 

Even if he doesn't do it intentionally, could it be argued that Clattenburg is subconsciously giving decisions against us as his own far-fetched sense of punishment for causing him a load of grief at Carrow Road?

 

I appreciate this is rather heading down the Liverpool-esque conspiracy theory route, but I wonder if the club could put in a request to the Premier League to not have Clattenburg referee us again - I'm pretty sure some teams have put in similar requests with other referees and been granted their wish...

[ottery st mary]

Clattenberg is also a fanatical Newcastle supporter......

 

Was made to cry many times as a result of Newcastle V Saints games over the years..

 

I blame Matt Le Tiss for this Clattenberg...Saints revenge;)

[Graffito]

Referees are prevented from taking charge of games involving certain teams - for example, teams they support (and their rivals), teams in their town/city of birth, etc. Could/should there be a case for referees who have instigated disciplinary proceedings against teams being kept off games involving those teams?

 

Cast your minds back to March this year, Mark Clattenburg gives Norwich a ridiculous last-minute penalty which then leads to a disciplinary charge against the club for failing to control our players (Pochettino also stormed onto the pitch after the game to confront Clattenburg). Since then, Clattenburg has refereed our games at Spurs (uneventful 1-0 defeat), Arsenal (where he gave them a penalty that no other referee would ordinarily give) and Everton yesterday (where he failed to give us a penalty for a clear handball, which he has admitted he saw).

 

Even if he doesn't do it intentionally, could it be argued that Clattenburg is subconsciously giving decisions against us as his own far-fetched sense of punishment for causing him a load of grief at Carrow Road?

 

I appreciate this is rather heading down the Liverpool-esque conspiracy theory route, but I wonder if the club could put in a request to the Premier League to not have Clattenburg referee us again - I'm pretty sure some teams have put in similar requests with other referees and been granted their wish...

 

On that basis you might think he has more reason to give decisions against Chelsea following the Mikel allegations but Chelsea have been willing to have him officiate.

 

Picking and choosing refs and even applying rules about a referee's place of birth, place of residence or allegiances is a can of worms, as is making them answerable in public.

 

If anything, he may have been swayed yesterday by that being his first appearance at Goodison for 6 years, having been prevented from refereeing there due to poor performance in a derby match.

 

It's possible he's simply someone whose judgement is poor and who should be demoted to the lower leagues. Harsh on the lower leagues but at least we wouldn't have to put up with him.

[Huffton]

Referees are prevented from taking charge of games involving certain teams - for example, teams they support (and their rivals), teams in their town/city of birth, etc. Could/should there be a case for referees who have instigated disciplinary proceedings against teams being kept off games involving those teams?

 

Cast your minds back to March this year, Mark Clattenburg gives Norwich a ridiculous last-minute penalty which then leads to a disciplinary charge against the club for failing to control our players (Pochettino also stormed onto the pitch after the game to confront Clattenburg). Since then, Clattenburg has refereed our games at Spurs (uneventful 1-0 defeat), Arsenal (where he gave them a penalty that no other referee would ordinarily give) and Everton yesterday (where he failed to give us a penalty for a clear handball, which he has admitted he saw).

 

Even if he doesn't do it intentionally, could it be argued that Clattenburg is subconsciously giving decisions against us as his own far-fetched sense of punishment for causing him a load of grief at Carrow Road?

 

I appreciate this is rather heading down the Liverpool-esque conspiracy theory route, but I wonder if the club could put in a request to the Premier League to not have Clattenburg referee us again - I'm pretty sure some teams have put in similar requests with other referees and been granted their wish...

 

 

I said pretty much the same thing to my nipper yesterday. the guy has an agenda against Saints. Theres just too many bad decisions from him that go against us. We all moan most weeks about the ref but if you look at the game subjectiveky we tend to get away with a fair few decisions that go the other way, except for when this ***** is in charge.

And for him to come out and say he saw the handball but didn't give it as it wasn't deliberate? Thats either gross incompetence or pure cheating. Either way he should be hauled over the coals for it. Will he be? Will he ****...

[adrian lord]

Technology is never the answer. The off side rule is impossible to judge exactly in marginal cases and there would need to be a complete overhaul of this aspect of the laws. Fouls and hand balls are subjective anyway so in the limit it comes down to one man's opinion. As for TV pundits, they all need to go and learn the Laws of the Game, it seems that after playing hundreds of games of professional football most of them still haven't learnt anything. Michael Owen is perhaps the most honest of them, even if he is a poor commentator and obviously biased. He is always talking about 'playing for the foul' or 'taking one for the team'. There's too much money involved and TV takes the blame for Manley of the problems. Let's leave the game as it is, a sport with all that that implies. If were not careful we'll end up with American soccerball with timeouts, grid lines painted across the pitch, rolling substitutions, video reviews with the result determined by phone-ins and franchised clubs with silly names being sold to whichever city bids the highest.

 

I agree - but I'm afraid we are already some way along the road to the perdition that is American soccerball.

Edited 30 December, 2013 by adrian lord

[adrian lord]

It is very easy to blame the officials and ....Add it that the the ball was under control of another defender, outside the box and being run away from goal - by the letter of the law this is immaterial but undoubtedly have an influence...

 

Thatcher's famous Belgrano argument.

[Leicestersaint]

Clattenburg is a disgrace.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Mike Dean is fast becoming the best ref around, that's how bad they've got. Baldy Webb was a bloody disgrace on Sunday and poll has suggested that he's trying to avoid controversial incidents to cement his world cup place. He's yet to issue a red card or give a peno this season. Its claimed that he's worked out that you get more stick for missing an incident ,than for giving a wrong decision. Therefore , he's wilfully blind to some incidents. Sunday there were 2 horrendous Chelsea tackles and a blatant peno, had he reduced Chelsea to 9 and given it, the shiete would have hit the fan. Its easy to send two stoke players off, but they're all blinded by big players and clubs. Rooney should have gone at Hull, poor tackle on Huddleston was a yellow, and then booked for arguing. Same at Cardiff, wild kick out, but he stayed on. Bottlers the lot of them.

[Whitey Grandad]

Mike Dean is fast becoming the best ref around, that's how bad they've got. Baldy Webb was a bloody disgrace on Sunday and poll has suggested that he's trying to avoid controversial incidents to cement his world cup place. He's yet to issue a red card or give a peno this season. Its claimed that he's worked out that you get more stick for missing an incident ,than for giving a wrong decision. Therefore , he's wilfully blind to some incidents. Sunday there were 2 horrendous Chelsea tackles and a blatant peno, had he reduced Chelsea to 9 and given it, the shiete would have hit the fan. Its easy to send two stoke players off, but they're all blinded by big players and clubs. Rooney should have gone at Hull, poor tackle on Huddleston was a yellow, and then booked for arguing. Same at Cardiff, wild kick out, but he stayed on. Bottlers the lot of them.

 

Big club syndrome innit.

[teamsaint]

Big club syndrome innit.

 

 

So wouldn't technology help even this out then?

[Whitey Grandad]

So wouldn't technology help even this out then?

 

Somebody has to interpret the technology, all you are doing is referring the decision to another person who may equally be influenced.

[Wade Garrett]

The powers that be prefer the human element to refereeing, and accept the mistakes that go with it.

 

FIFA for example, wouldn't be able to influence refs against us if technology made all the correct decisions. England have been on the receiving end of some horrendous decisions in World Cup Finals and Blatter and his cronies are all as bent as a nine bob note.

[Dr Who?]

Referees are pretty much told how to referee like a robot! But what referees need to do is be consistant over a season, when most of the time they are not consistant in the same game. This is the thing that I hear the most and if you are not giving the same decisions in the same game, then this will cause huge problems.

 

I do think that refereeing is much tougher these days, with players diving and cheating all over the pitch. In the olden days, players would not go down unless they were really kicked or punched in the face, which made it more clear cut for the referee.

 

There is something every week and it is normally a player cheating! Also hand ball should be handball no matter if the player meant it or not, this would rule out bickering over this grey area.

 

waits for a clip of a player clearly diving from the 70's and 80's!

[NI Saint]

waits for a clip of a player clearly diving from the 70's and 80's!

 

[Dr Who?]

 

Yes a dive, but still a penalty? I am unsure, did not play the ball and came across the player and then pulled out!! hmmm!

 

Nice to see the ref giving the w*nker sign to the Boro players

[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, still a foul even without the dive.

[sandwichsaint]

Man U penalty today? Howard Webb again.

 

Keeper leaves his goal and hurtles into no-mans land, Young has the ball under control, Llorris slides aggressively and with front leg off the ground (no control and doesn't get near playing the ball). Young clips the ball past him, the sliding Llorris is right on top of him and with no control, Young hurdles him (he has to, to avoid him), Lolloris appears to catch him / impede him, Young falls to ground and can't take part in subsequent play.

 

Why is this not a penalty?

[brightspark]

Man U penalty today? Howard Webb again.

 

Keeper leaves his goal and hurtles into no-mans land, Young has the ball under control, Llorris slides aggressively and with front leg off the ground (no control and doesn't get near playing the ball). Young clips the ball past him, the sliding Llorris is right on top of him and with no control, Young hurdles him (he has to, to avoid him), Lolloris appears to catch him / impede him, Young falls to ground and can't take part in subsequent play.

 

Why is this not a penalty?

 

Say you are the referee and Ashley Young has conned you in the past. The decision has embarrassed you as a referee and Young is to blame - he's also got away scot free. Would you not think twice if the same player went down in another game? It's only human. Ashley Young has made his own bed and he can lie on it.

 

Let me pose a question that (hopefully) will allow some to look at referees in a positive light. Who should be England's representative at the World Cup? Mike Dean?

[Viking Warrior]

Moyes is livid with webs decision yesterday. As it united they are getting all the coverage on Motd etc unlike our def penalty which was hardly mentioned

[Chez]

Yes a dive, but still a penalty? I am unsure, did not play the ball and came across the player and then pulled out!! hmmm!

 

Nice to see the ref giving the w*nker sign to the Boro players

 

Wonder if that dive was the moment when something snapped in souness head and he became the psychopath we all know?

[Chez]

Ashley Young has made his own bed and he can lie on it.?

 

I like the cut of your jib sir. Young has cried wolf too many times. Glad it has come home to roost.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Webb again.Horrendous game in the Chelsea v Liverpool fixture and then again yesterday. Rooney spent the whole game in his face, despite already being on a yellow baldy did nothing. I don't get where this logic that appears to suggest that Webb is our best ref. He ****ed up the world cup final and is making way too many mistakes. Oscar shouldn't have been playing yesterday, had baldy done his job he'd have been suspended.

 

The best in my opinion is dean and dowd. I like dowd's attitude, he looks like he's on the verge of telling players they're twts when they try it on. Dean is efficient and gets more right then wrong.

[Saint_clark]

Whoever it was yesterday was fairly decent, letting the game flow. Only shocker I can think of was not giving a foul on Lambert when he was literally pulled 180 degrees.

[corky morris]

Motes ignores the Smalling hand ball!

Webb is s h I t e!

[Whitey Grandad]

Whoever it was yesterday was fairly decent, letting the game flow. Only shocker I can think of was not giving a foul on Lambert when he was literally pulled 180 degrees.

 

Martin Atkinson?

[Shroppie]

Deleted. Clattenburg has his own thread.

Edited 3 January, 2014 by Shroppie

[Batman]

this weeks howler has come at St James Park

[Saint Garrett]

Shocking

[Whitey Grandad]

this weeks howler has come at St James Park

 

Worth a letter from Newcastle, surely?

[LGTL]

It's a disgrace. They are pathetic most weeks.

[Ade]

Another poor performance from a 'premier League' referee. Should've been a free kick on Gaston, sending off for Brown, and to compound it Lovren badly injured straight after, which wouldn't have happened if the officials had done their jobs properly and given the free kick. Why do I feel it's a conspiracy after the clubs criticism of Clattenburg. Or is it simply a case of really, really bad refereeing week after week after week after week?

[Saint_clark]

Actually had a good game today other than 2 decisions.

[S-Clarke]

He wasn't that bad today, he actually played advantage for Gaston and allowed him to continue the run. Brown did get the ball, but the follow through was awful. Don't want to watch it again as it was that nasty.

[Pastor Patrón]

Actually had a good game today other than 2 decisions.

 

Player leaves pitch with snapped ankle and on oxygen from an unpunished tackle in a clear goalscoring opportunity. =/= a good game

[Graffito]

He wasn't that bad today, he actually played advantage for Gaston and allowed him to continue the run. Brown did get the ball, but the follow through was awful. Don't want to watch it again as it was that nasty.

 

Sorry but that was an appalling decision.

[Ade]

Player leaves pitch with snapped ankle and on oxygen from an unpunished tackle in a clear goalscoring opportunity. =/= a good game

 

This. Doesn't matter what he did the rest of the game, he made an extremely poor decision by not giving a free kick (and sending off), which ultimately resulted in not one, but two of our players being stretchered off at the same time. He bottled a big decision against us, which seems to be usual for referees in our games.

 

'had a good game'.....jeez

[Leicestersaint]

Very poor referee in terms of stopping dangerous tackles by Sunderland. The tackle on Ramirez by Brown was shocking and could have ended the player's career.

[James]

Refereeing this season has been a complete joke and there are no repercussions at all. It's actually ruining the game.

[Viking Warrior]

The ref today was pretty good on the whole he missed a couple of incidents and tried to let the game flow . He missed the Garston foul and the subsequent lovern one and Hand ball . Other that is I would prefer him every week as long as we don't get ****tenberg or Webb

[Olallana]

A referee that cant even bother discussing with the players at any time is never a good referee.....as soon as a player asked him something he put up a stoneface.

[Viking Warrior]

At least to days referee spoke with the saints players after the foul . ****tenberg would have booked them and called them who knows what .

 

Ref was good today .

[Window Cleaner]

Sorry but that was an appalling decision.

 

 

As are many others. Refs just aren't up to the professional "cachoterie" of the players. Thugs like Brown know exactly how to hide their vicious tackles from refs. Only the video will ever stamp them out and we'll never ever get that.

[Olallana]

I wish we would get a few soft penalties like Liverpool....

[Ade]

I wish we would get a few soft penalties like Liverpool....

We are not a 'Big' club. Referees do not, as has happened on a number of occasions this season, give us big calls. I'm not saying they do it on purpose, just that we are a side that doesn't generally give the referee any pressure. None of our players seem to 'get in the face' of refs like say Rooney does, and so it's easier for a ref to not give us calls. I think this was what the club is trying to address by complaining about Clattenburg - Poch has referred to this in the past.

[eelpie]

There could be some very interesting conversations on refereeing decisions between our new CEO in-waiting and MoPo if this appointment is confirmed.....

 

"Liebherr is seeking a chief executive to replace Cortese and she is expected to turn to the former Blackburn Rovers chairman John Williams, who hails from Totton in Southampton. Williams left Blackburn in 2011 and he enjoyed a spell as a Manchester City executive. He has remained in football as the chairman of the referees' body, the Professional Game Match Officials Limited."