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Would selling Lallana and getting a good price for him have sent a tougher message?


Rasiak-9-

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(In before some old chucklehead scoffs and says words the effect of "Yeah! selling our captain sure makes us look like we're the ones in control! :lol: "

 

But picture the alternative scenarios:

 

A:

 

1) We get a bid from Liverpool. We're happy to sell at the right price. Negotiations begin.

 

2) Liverpool want the player before the World Cup, we use that point as a negotiating lever and duly negotiate them up to a £28m buying price.

 

3) Regardless of how we feel, literally 90% of neutral observers see this as us absolutely bending Liverpool over, are impressed with us driving a hard bargain, see Saints as getting a fantastic deal and as a club that will sell players only at the right price.

 

4) With money in the bank, our players feeling more clear about various players' future and our stances on selling anyone, clubs are far less keen on tapping our players up and trying to unsettle a club they see as nervous and insecure when it comes to keeping hold of their players.

 

Scenario B

 

1) We turn down various bids. Slam the phone down on any potential enquiries about other players, and look positively amateur and nervous.

 

2) Other clubs smell blood, not just about Lallana/Shaw etc. but about the entire, unsettled squad that looks like they don't have any confidence in the management.

 

3) Players start rebelling, putting in transfer requests, our negotiating position crumbles.

 

4) Lallana etc. have a disappointing World Cup. Price drops further

 

5) We sell our players later, on other clubs' terms and at a lower price, we don't have replacements lined up. Chaos ensues with players insecure about their future, mistrusting the management etc. and the bank run begins.

 

Does anyone feel the way I do?

 

You could say "oh well how about we just don't sell our players?" but thats completely delusional. We aren't going to hold onto players who merit the attention of big 6 clubs (yet) and to suggest that Luke Shaw is possible one of the best left-backs in the world already and yet he should stay with us, play at a lower standard and earn less money is just looking through Saints-tinted glasses.

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The fact that we were only offered £25m, consisting of ridiculous add ons, suggests that scenario 1 would never happen at 28m.

 

You don't think we could squeeze the price up a few million? Even with the offer of having it sorted before the World Cup, before the price potentially shot up and before other suitors came a-calling?

 

Either way, everything I've said pretty much applies at the same rate if we sold him for £25m. Literally we're the only ones who think he's worth as much as that.

 

Selling him quickly for £25Mn and moving on briskly and confidently into the transfer market ourselves, whilst establishing that Shaw can have his move to United for £27Mn and that these two players would (amongst other signings) quickly be replaced would have 1) kept the wolves from our door re. other players, who the footballing world would know would cost a bomb as we have enough cash in the tank not to have sell and 2) kept the confidence high among the rest of the squad, hopefully encouraging the Lovrens and Schneiderlins to stick around for the next season at least.

 

We are going to lose both Lallana and Shaw this summer folks. That much is a sunken loss. We cannot afford the opportunity cost of a £27Mn full back.

 

Burying our heads in sand has had the effect of lowering their possible price tags, making our management look clueless and our squad look absolutely desperate to leave and very much vulnerable to tapping up/unsettling.

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(In before some old chucklehead scoffs and says words the effect of "Yeah! selling our captain sure makes us look like we're the ones in control! :lol: "

 

But picture the alternative scenarios:

 

A:

 

1) We get a bid from Liverpool. We're happy to sell at the right price. Negotiations begin.

 

2) Liverpool want the player before the World Cup, we use that point as a negotiating lever and duly negotiate them up to a £28m buying price.

 

3) Regardless of how we feel, literally 90% of neutral observers see this as us absolutely bending Liverpool over, are impressed with us driving a hard bargain, see Saints as getting a fantastic deal and as a club that will sell players only at the right price.

 

4) With money in the bank, our players feeling more clear about various players' future and our stances on selling anyone, clubs are far less keen on tapping our players up and trying to unsettle a club they see as nervous and insecure when it comes to keeping hold of their players.

 

Scenario B

 

1) We turn down various bids. Slam the phone down on any potential enquiries about other players, and look positively amateur and nervous.

 

2) Other clubs smell blood, not just about Lallana/Shaw etc. but about the entire, unsettled squad that looks like they don't have any confidence in the management.

 

3) Players start rebelling, putting in transfer requests, our negotiating position crumbles.

 

4) Lallana etc. have a disappointing World Cup. Price drops further

 

5) We sell our players later, on other clubs' terms and at a lower price, we don't have replacements lined up. Chaos ensues with players insecure about their future, mistrusting the management etc. and the bank run begins.

 

Does anyone feel the way I do?

 

You could say "oh well how about we just don't sell our players?" but thats completely delusional. We aren't going to hold onto players who merit the attention of big 6 clubs (yet) and to suggest that Luke Shaw is possible one of the best left-backs in the world already and yet he should stay with us, play at a lower standard and earn less money is just looking through Saints-tinted glasses.

 

There's a lot of logical gymnastics in there. I particularly like the bit where other clubs see us as weak and unsettled and therefore don't approach our players...out of the goodness of their hearts.

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FWIW I think the club have to force Liverpool's hand with the bidding. It's as important for the club's image that we be seen to be taken seriously by a fellow Premier club (especially one at the same high table where we would like to be) as it is to get the playing side sorted out. You only have to see the change in attitude amongst some players when the manager leaves and we are perceived to be weaker. Or the change after the little Napoleon left, taking his maps of Europe with him. We need to be able to show clubs that we are serious about where we see the club going and where our ambitions lie.

 

I would hope that the club would say 25m upfront and Liverpool pay enough on top to cover Bournemouth's share. Failing that and we say "Sorry, Adam, they obviously didn't want you enough". If it turns out that we end up with either Luke or Adam or both here (unlikely) and some new signings then great - let the morale rebuilding begin. Failing that, I'd like us to really draw the buying clubs over the coals financially and then sign their replacements days later, after the club have secretly been doing their own work behind the scenes. If it's going to be a break-up, you have to be the one to move on fastest and most confidently :-)

 

Keeping our two stars and rebuilding. Selling one or both and pocketting 10-15m with top quality replacements. Either is good. Telling Lovren to stick his transfer request, honour the contract he signed under a year ago and get with the programme is good. Being dictated to by 'big clubs' and their media friends is not an option though. Long contracts have to mean something - and it seems Shaw is going about things the right way so seems unlikely to dummy spit. Lallana may spit the dummy but if he isn't man enough to submit his own transfer request (preferring the media route) then he isn't likely to go tough on issuing ultimatums and refusing to play. Damn, I'm sounding all Tywin Lannister all of a sudden :-)

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Just have a look at some of the barmy prices that deals get done at for top players. Liverpool, United, City, Chelsea all pay them. They think they can get our players for a discount because they play for us not Real Madrid. I don't see how that works. Full credit to the club for telling the vultures to jog on unless they come up with the silly money required to buy our World class players.

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We should have by default a minimum buy out clause for all academy graduates that states the club will only respond when an offer exceeding £25m is recieved. We make this public, we get rid of time wasters.

 

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

Completely agree with this. Every graduate contract should have that clause written in, although the club can choose to lower the amount if they wish. Makes absolute sense that the investment is protected. I also think there should be a minimum age of 21applied to any transfers, but that probably wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

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I thought scenario A was exactly what we are doing. They are not near our asking price yet. If they get there, he will go and we will reinvest. If not he will stay.

 

I think Lallana is a bit overated he is an excellent footballer I agree but for £25m I would expect more end product

 

He does not have much pace £15 to £20 million is a reasonable price I would have thought

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I think Lallana is a bit overated he is an excellent footballer I agree but for £25m I would expect more end product

 

He does not have much pace £15 to £20 million is a reasonable price I would have thought

 

Why are you talking about a reasonable price? It is common business practice that if you don't want to sell something, you either say a point blank no or, as "everything has a price" you put it up higher than it (possibly) should be. Reasonableness has little to do with anything, given our position, and especially when it comes to football.

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Why are you talking about a reasonable price? It is common business practice that if you don't want to sell something, you either say a point blank no or, as "everything has a price" you put it up higher than it (possibly) should be. Reasonableness has little to do with anything, given our position, and especially when it comes to football.

 

I dont disagree with you just saying I doubt Lallana will be sold for over £20m of course I could be wrong but we will have to wait and see

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FWIW I think the club have to force Liverpool's hand with the bidding. It's as important for the club's image that we be seen to be taken seriously by a fellow Premier club (especially one at the same high table where we would like to be) as it is to get the playing side sorted out. You only have to see the change in attitude amongst some players when the manager leaves and we are perceived to be weaker. Or the change after the little Napoleon left, taking his maps of Europe with him. We need to be able to show clubs that we are serious about where we see the club going and where our ambitions lie.

 

I would hope that the club would say 25m upfront and Liverpool pay enough on top to cover Bournemouth's share. Failing that and we say "Sorry, Adam, they obviously didn't want you enough". If it turns out that we end up with either Luke or Adam or both here (unlikely) and some new signings then great - let the morale rebuilding begin. Failing that, I'd like us to really draw the buying clubs over the coals financially and then sign their replacements days later, after the club have secretly been doing their own work behind the scenes. If it's going to be a break-up, you have to be the one to move on fastest and most confidently :-)

 

Keeping our two stars and rebuilding. Selling one or both and pocketting 10-15m with top quality replacements. Either is good. Telling Lovren to stick his transfer request, honour the contract he signed under a year ago and get with the programme is good. Being dictated to by 'big clubs' and their media friends is not an option though. Long contracts have to mean something - and it seems Shaw is going about things the right way so seems unlikely to dummy spit. Lallana may spit the dummy but if he isn't man enough to submit his own transfer request (preferring the media route) then he isn't likely to go tough on issuing ultimatums and refusing to play. Damn, I'm sounding all Tywin Lannister all of a sudden :-)

 

A spot on assessment.

 

Under Cortese, he had established a reputation amongst agents of being a bit of a bastard to deal with, but I'm sure that what went with that was a respect that he was no mug. It was apparently out in the public domain that he had binned a fax from Liverpool offering to buy one of our players. With him leaving, Pochettino leaving and with a newly appointed board finding their feet, we need to re-establish a reputation for being tough negotiators who will not suffer fools gladly.

 

The new board made a bad mistake when Gareth Rogers naively released that statement that we had inherited a difficult financial situation from Cortese and a lot of this frenzy in the media and offers for most of our best players is the direct outcome of that, the belief that we have to sell our players to balance the books. By playing hard-ball with the glory clubs who believe that they only have to snap their fingers and the smaller clubs will be powerless to resist their overtures, we can send out a clear message as to how it will be with dealings for our best players in the future.

 

These should be the salient points as guiding principles:-

 

We do not need to sell any of the players we wish to keep from a financial perspective.

 

The club's financial situation is stronger than most, including that of many of the bigger clubs. Our owner is wealthy and here for the longer term. There is no immediate intention to sell the club.

 

Most of our top players are on long contracts. If we have no need or desire to sell them, only a stupid offer might turn our heads. Don't waste our time tyre-kicking if you can't afford to play with the big boys.

 

The more the big clubs express interest in our top players via the media, the higher the price is going to go. That is basic economics, the law of supply and demand.

 

We will have in place astute conditions both in the players contracts and the sell on clauses. This will entail a minimum release fee before negotiations can be entered into and a high percentage sell-on clause.

 

Money up-front is how we like to operate. By all means have add-ons, but any add-ons like appearance bonuses will only be considered on top of a minimum fee paid up front that we are happy with. The more clubs after the same player, the more remote will be the opportunity to avoid paying the whole amount up-front.

 

If that puts off the big clubs, so that we get to keep our best players, so much the better. That is what we seek to achieve

 

That lot ought to do it.

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Here's an idea. Why dont we just let the new manager get on with his job and do what he thinks is the best for the team/club?

 

Bloody 'ell gov, never thought of that one! We've been here chatting footy for years and never thought to just let the manager get on with it!

 

Cheers sadoldgit, all along we just needed your advice!

 

Can close this board now mods.

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Why are you talking about a reasonable price? It is common business practice that if you don't want to sell something, you either say a point blank no or, as "everything has a price" you put it up higher than it (possibly) should be. Reasonableness has little to do with anything, given our position, and especially when it comes to football.

 

Agree completely if someone offers a completely crazy high bid then sure it's understandable to deal. That to me seems the approach of an ambitious club. Selling at reasonable prices will likely lead to more bids and more unsettled players trying to force their way out. That way is the way of a feeder club with little ambition.

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Here's an idea. Why dont we just let the new manager get on with his job and do what he thinks is the best for the team/club?

 

It has always been the case with the new board that we will only sell the players that the manager wants to sell. But he doesn't have control of the contracts, the amount paid or the paperwork, does he?

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Why are you talking about a reasonable price? It is common business practice that if you don't want to sell something, you either say a point blank no or, as "everything has a price" you put it up higher than it (possibly) should be. Reasonableness has little to do with anything, given our position, and especially when it comes to football.

 

 

although this approach is occasionally scuppered by players determined to force their way out. When that happens you just need to ensure that ou get as much as you can. Personally I think Lallana will eventually force a move, don't know if it will be to Liverpool though.

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I'm expecting us to play hardball up to at least £35m, and personally I wouldn't sell for less than £40m. If we have to.

 

Liverpool's valuation needs to reflect that we don't want to sell AND the cost of getting an experienced replacement of similar quality.

 

As for the original question, no, selling for loads is not a tougher message than potentially not selling at all.

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although this approach is occasionally scuppered by players determined to force their way out. When that happens you just need to ensure that ou get as much as you can. Personally I think Lallana will eventually force a move, don't know if it will be to Liverpool though.

 

Where else could he go if not Liverpool?

Man City - highly unlikely

Chelsea - highly unlikely

Arsenal - possible but unlikely

Spurs - possible, unlikely - becomes a maybe if Lamella leaves. Not a champs league club.

Everton - possible, would suit them but can't see them affording him. Not a champs league club.

Man Utd -the most credible alternative. No whispers on this. Not a champs league club.

 

This all adds up to Bournemouth being highly unlikely to get their 25% even if Ad does move on.

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I'm expecting us to play hardball up to at least £35m, and personally I wouldn't sell for less than £40m. If we have to.

 

Liverpool's valuation needs to reflect that we don't want to sell AND the cost of getting an experienced replacement of similar quality.

 

As for the original question, no, selling for loads is not a tougher message than potentially not selling at all.

 

£40m for Lallana??? Not a cats chance.

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Where else could he go if not Liverpool?

Man City - highly unlikely

Chelsea - highly unlikely

Arsenal - possible but unlikely

Spurs - possible, unlikely - becomes a maybe if Lamella leaves. Not a champs league club.

Everton - possible, would suit them but can't see them affording him. Not a champs league club.

Man Utd -the most credible alternative. No whispers on this. Not a champs league club.

 

This all adds up to Bournemouth being highly unlikely to get their 25% even if Ad does move on.

 

All very insular, Lallana is much admired in Continental Europe as well you know, t'is true that English players don't export themselves much nowadays though. We might even get a bid from Monaco....you never know ;-)

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All very insular, Lallana is much admired in Continental Europe as well you know, t'is true that English players don't export themselves much nowadays though. We might even get a bid from Monaco....you never know ;-)

 

I've seen no proof of Ad being "admired in continental Europe"... but take your point:

 

France - PSG & Monaco - highly unlikely, many cheaper alternatives

Spain - Real or Barce are the only teams that could potentially afford him - highly unlikely

Italy - no money in that league to afford him.

Germany - Bayern is the only side that could afford him - highly unlikely.

Russia - loadsa money but highly unlikely Ad would want to move his young famo there... bad enough heading up to Liverpool!

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Not really sure if this is serious, there are several logical and factual fallacies.

 

Scenario A suggests our players are very clear on their future but in scenario B, they are all at sea. There is no suggestion as to why this might be.

 

You seem to be suggesting that by rejecting a bid, other clubs are more inclined to bid for our other players. Very odd. “Can I buy your car mate, £2000?”, “no, sorry” “Excellent, he must want to sell his bike”.

 

I seem to recall there was mention that we'd told Liverpool the price was £25m

 

Also, rejecting a bid does not look amateur.

 

Let me put it this way:

Scenario C:

1) Flimby flamby, whosy woosy

2) Please keep arms inside the car

3) Jack mickle dongle flob

4) Result: We win the world cup

Scenario D:

1) Hum dun yooter flob

2) Formal evening wear only

3) Thinder outquop vertican

4) Result: Everyone dies

Debate me, I bet you can’t prove me wrong.

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Not really sure if this is serious, there are several logical and factual fallacies.

 

Scenario A suggests our players are very clear on their future but in scenario B, they are all at sea. There is no suggestion as to why this might be.

 

You seem to be suggesting that by rejecting a bid, other clubs are more inclined to bid for our other players. Very odd. “Can I buy your car mate, £2000?”, “no, sorry” “Excellent, he must want to sell his bike”.

 

I seem to recall there was mention that we'd told Liverpool the price was £25m

 

Also, rejecting a bid does not look amateur.

 

Let me put it this way:

Scenario C:

1) Flimby flamby, whosy woosy

2) Please keep arms inside the car

3) Jack mickle dongle flob

4) Result: We win the world cup

Scenario D:

1) Hum dun yooter flob

2) Formal evening wear only

3) Thinder outquop vertican

4) Result: Everyone dies

Debate me, I bet you can’t prove me wrong.

 

Think I'd be firmer on Scenario C if I knew who "We" were.

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Not really sure if this is serious, there are several logical and factual fallacies.

 

Scenario A suggests our players are very clear on their future but in scenario B, they are all at sea. There is no suggestion as to why this might be.

 

You seem to be suggesting that by rejecting a bid, other clubs are more inclined to bid for our other players. Very odd. “Can I buy your car mate, £2000?”, “no, sorry” “Excellent, he must want to sell his bike”.

 

I seem to recall there was mention that we'd told Liverpool the price was £25m

 

Also, rejecting a bid does not look amateur.

 

Let me put it this way:

Scenario C:

1) Flimby flamby, whosy woosy

2) Please keep arms inside the car

3) Jack mickle dongle flob

4) Result: We win the world cup

Scenario D:

1) Hum dun yooter flob

2) Formal evening wear only

3) Thinder outquop vertican

4) Result: Everyone dies

Debate me, I bet you can’t prove me wrong.

 

Scenario D it's bloody obvious that Hum dun yooter flob leads to informal evening wear...

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http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9361285/Ratings365

 

"20. Adam Lallana (91 minutes)

A massive let-down. He was supposed to provide England's X Factor, the two-footed little box of tricks, but two largely unsatisfactory pre-tournament performances saw him sidelined for Welbeck in the opening game against Italy. Since then he's done bugger all to suggest that Southampton should be asking anything north of £20m for his services."

 

In the words of Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, I hate being right all the time.

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Whatever happens there will be some who will argue it is a good thing for the club and some who will say it's been badly handled and we look stupid as a club. Either way we aren't all going to agree as it's just not great both ways.

 

I personally hope that Adam stays but only if he wants to, and if he goes we make an attempt to sign someone considered to be better than Adam. Not sure selling is going to present a tougher message, not sure keeping him and playing him is going to send a tough message to the players either.

Edited by Mallagroth
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http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9361285/Ratings365

 

"20. Adam Lallana (91 minutes)

A massive let-down. He was supposed to provide England's X Factor, the two-footed little box of tricks, but two largely unsatisfactory pre-tournament performances saw him sidelined for Welbeck in the opening game against Italy. Since then he's done bugger all to suggest that Southampton should be asking anything north of £20m for his services."

 

In the words of Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, I hate being right all the time.

 

That's all well and good, but if the national side play some **** system, how is anyone supposed to fit in? Take Gerrard for example - people say that he was/is one of the best midfielders in the world. Judge him on any England performance and you would say that they are ****ing mad. Same story with pretty much everyone in the England squad, especially the manager.

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That's all well and good, but if the national side play some **** system, how is anyone supposed to fit in? Take Gerrard for example - people say that he was/is one of the best midfielders in the world. Judge him on any England performance and you would say that they are ****ing mad. Same story with pretty much everyone in the England squad, especially the manager.

 

Judge him on his performance against Germany in the 5-1 match or several others at that level and he has proved that he is class. He would still walk into any Premiership side. Listen to the way ex pros talk about him. I'd have him at Saints now in a heartbeat.

 

Anyway, scenario E) We appoint a new manager. The manager comes in and assesses the squad. He and the club sit down and decide who they want to keep and who they want to let go. The manager talks to the players who want out but who he wants to keep. If he cant persuade them to stay and the club decide there is no point in playing hard ball, the club seeks to sell for the best deal going and we get in a quality replacement.

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Judge him on his performance against Germany in the 5-1 match or several others at that level and he has proved that he is class. He would still walk into any Premiership side. Listen to the way ex pros talk about him. I'd have him at Saints now in a heartbeat.

 

Anyway, scenario E) We appoint a new manager. The manager comes in and assesses the squad. He and the club sit down and decide who they want to keep and who they want to let go. The manager talks to the players who want out but who he wants to keep. If he cant persuade them to stay and the club decide there is no point in playing hard ball, the club seeks to sell for the best deal going and we get in a quality replacement.

 

Several others? Which several others were those?

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Judge him on his performance against Germany in the 5-1 match or several others at that level and he has proved that he is class. He would still walk into any Premiership side. Listen to the way ex pros talk about him. I'd have him at Saints now in a heartbeat.

 

Anyway, scenario E) We appoint a new manager. The manager comes in and assesses the squad. He and the club sit down and decide who they want to keep and who they want to let go. The manager talks to the players who want out but who he wants to keep. If he cant persuade them to stay and the club decide there is no point in playing hard ball, the club seeks to sell for the best deal going and we get in a quality replacement.

 

Fine, but you misunderstand my point. As it is, Germany 1-5 England was 13 years ago. I am talking about recent ones.

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Ridiculous view on Lallana. He was the only england player to show composure and did as well as anyone in pre-tournament games. If you're still using those games to work out your team you've failed as the manager anyway.

 

They once again ignored the technical player and went for direct running players that lose the ball a lot. It failed, again. Then we get criticism of lallana, showing people will learn nothing, again. Lallana's biggest problem, like many other technical players over the years, is that he's english. Another nationality and he'd flourish internationally.

This. And the answer to the OP is no. No more than it would have sent out a tougher message if Liverpool had sold Suarez this time last year instead of keeping him, when he wanted to go.

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http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9361285/Ratings365

 

"20. Adam Lallana (91 minutes)

A massive let-down. He was supposed to provide England's X Factor, the two-footed little box of tricks, but two largely unsatisfactory pre-tournament performances saw him sidelined for Welbeck in the opening game against Italy. Since then he's done bugger all to suggest that Southampton should be asking anything north of £20m for his services."

 

In the words of Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, I hate being right all the time.

 

And I guess you didn't read the rest of the article which basically ridiculed every other England player. Mediocrity is relative and all that.

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http://www.football365.com/f365-features/9361285/Ratings365

 

"20. Adam Lallana (91 minutes)

A massive let-down. He was supposed to provide England's X Factor, the two-footed little box of tricks, but two largely unsatisfactory pre-tournament performances saw him sidelined for Welbeck in the opening game against Italy. Since then he's done bugger all to suggest that Southampton should be asking anything north of £20m for his services."

 

In the words of Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park, I hate being right all the time.

 

One opinion from a scouse 'journalist' vaguely gives credence to one of your 9 points.

Try again fella.

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Judge him on his performance against Germany in the 5-1 match or several others at that level and he has proved that he is class. He would still walk into any Premiership side. Listen to the way ex pros talk about him. I'd have him at Saints now in a heartbeat.

 

Judge him on a performance 13 years ago. It was a one off, ridiculous, really never did much for England again. Gerrard is past it and not very good in the new role he has tried to create for himself. he might make PL teams for one more year, but otherwise he is really not that good even in the PL. He is also a ****.

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