Smirking_Saint Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 Hypo, you have Muslim friends and associates. Would you ever dream of depicting Mohammed in a way that you knew they would find offensive in order to show it to them? If so, would your justification be that it was vital that the depiction existed? There are all kinds of ways one can use freedom of expression to be critical of Islam. You do not have to go for the holiest of holies, repeatedly. I agree with Smirking. It was ill-advised and in my view, ostentatiously provocative. The French knew this too, which is presumably why they had police bodyguards assigned to them. Thank you pap, much more errudite then I could muster Freedom of expression is vitally important, but at the same time people need to know the boundries and be responsible, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 Montpellier siege and photos. The entire city center encircled by police, and plunged into darkness http://www.midilibre.fr/2015/01/09/montpellier-braquage-dans-une-bijouterie-deux-malfaiteurs-cernes-par-la-police,1108678.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 9 January, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 Center of Montpellier in total darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks Sums up my point nicely An excellent piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 Thank you pap, much more errudite then I could muster Freedom of expression is vitally important, but at the same time people need to know the boundries and be responsible, IMO I disagree, I think they were confronting an important issue. You can't have religions dictating what we can and cannot say, fatwas have been issued by muslims for much less and that's not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 9 January, 2015 Sums up my point nicely An excellent piece Thought you would like that. For me, it is one of the most thoughtful expressions I've seen on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 (edited) Thought you would like that. For me, it is one of the most thoughtful expressions I've seen on the issue. Out of interest Pap what were your thoughts on the BBC showing Jerry Springer the Opera? With freedom of speech comes a responsibility and that is to respect. I think you should not respond to people who push the boundaries of our tolerance with intolerance. Our right is to think they are an arsehole not to mutter 'well they had it coming to them'. Edited 9 January, 2015 by Sergei Gotsmanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 No subject per se should be off the table; but those in power are fairer game than minorities -religious or otherwise- who may already feel themselves embattled or persecuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 9 January, 2015 Share Posted 9 January, 2015 So the West will continue to talk about freedom of expression. It is a giant woosh. Humanity is at war with Extremist Muslims, not the West. Muslims murdered Indians in Mubai of every religion. Muslims killed Muslims in Paris. While it is an atrocity that something like 16 people have now died in France, what about the 33 Police Cadets (Muslims) who were murdered by Al Qaeda in the Gulf in Yemen this week? Those poor sods in one of the poorest Nations in the world are in the frontline fighting YOUR war and I haven't seen any great debate about what The West should do to help fight this evil at it's source. The Jordanian Pilot shot down (Muslim) after a bombing run on ISIL in Syria? The Emirati Pilot (Muslim) killed training for Joint Bombing runs with the Egyptian Air Force on extremists in Libya (Where did the West go after letting the Extremist loose over there?). How about some Cartoons for the Iraqi troops shot in the head one after the other last week trying to STOP these extremists? Nope, not seen any messages of Condolence. The West doesn't have psychopaths so we can be Judgemental. How can you argue about defending a Cartoon that offends Muslims when YOU - YES YOU and all your Institutions IGNORED thousands of claims of Sexual Abuse and Grooming across the North of England because "You didn't want to offend the Muslim Community"? The atrocities in Paris were the result of people painting an easy target on themselves in the middle of a Word War against Extremism. It is not about Freedom of Speech, those Cartoonists were NAIVE. They made an easy target for a massive Publicity win for the Extremists. They will use this and the fact that their "Martyrs" have gone to La-la Land to recruit even more Young Muslims that Western Society has managed to marginalise. This has been 40 years in the making. It won't stop. These were easy targets. As life gets made more difficult in Iraq now that the Government has finally been formed and allocated budgets (oh let me guess, nobody mentioned the country has been in limbo for 6 months while ISIL moved in because they had no budgets for paying any money for Weapons or Ammunition due to the horse trading after the Elections) At EVERY step of the way you have made it easy for the Disenfranchised to find a route to Extremism. Humanity is at War, hundreds of Muslims are dying every week FIGHTING EXTREMISTS, many of whom are EUROPEAN. Stop acting like woolly headed bloody Liberals and either start to fight Extremism (do something to engage with the disenfranchised in Europe and help the Nations here with more Technology and support) or keep painting come and get me Nutters targets on yourselves. Paris was tragic. Naive fools or Defenders of free speech murdered by Psychopaths who were outcast by the very PC world you thought you inhabited. Words, Rallies and Cartoons will not stop them. They will keep coming and they are no longer Idealists they are now Battle Hardened Veterans. They will find ways out of Syria/Iraq and back to their holes in the ground and create the next generation. It is Common Sense to walk on a Pavement with your eyes open. Unfortnately, too many people these days walk while looking at their Smartphones not at what is in front of them. Wake up and smell the coffee or pour petrol onto a fire in the name of free speech. Your choice. Send in troops now to help the Arab Nations destroy these monsters. Leave bloody Assad (Evil Nasty Tyrant) alone and work through the Russians & Iranians to help HIM destroy these monsters. But FFS stop lighting Candles, the next bunch of Nutters are already checked in on Ryanair from Turkey to somewhere in Europe. They don't even need a suitcase. Just before you go to bed tonight, ask yourselves, at the HEIGHT of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (oh yeah, Extremists killing people in the name of Religion on your own doorstep) How many active members of the IRA & Loyalist groups were there? 100? 1000? maybe 5,000? There are at least 100,000 nutters in Syria & Iraq, all battle hardened. They won't stop because of some protest rallies. They have to be Exterminated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 So the West will continue to talk about freedom of expression. It is a giant woosh. Humanity is at war with Extremist Muslims, not the West. Muslims murdered Indians in Mubai of every religion. Muslims killed Muslims in Paris. While it is an atrocity that something like 16 people have now died in France, what about the 33 Police Cadets (Muslims) who were murdered by Al Qaeda in the Gulf in Yemen this week? Those poor sods in one of the poorest Nations in the world are in the frontline fighting YOUR war and I haven't seen any great debate about what The West should do to help fight this evil at it's source. The Jordanian Pilot shot down (Muslim) after a bombing run on ISIL in Syria? The Emirati Pilot (Muslim) killed training for Joint Bombing runs with the Egyptian Air Force on extremists in Libya (Where did the West go after letting the Extremist loose over there?). How about some Cartoons for the Iraqi troops shot in the head one after the other last week trying to STOP these extremists? Nope, not seen any messages of Condolence. The West doesn't have psychopaths so we can be Judgemental. How can you argue about defending a Cartoon that offends Muslims when YOU - YES YOU and all your Institutions IGNORED thousands of claims of Sexual Abuse and Grooming across the North of England because "You didn't want to offend the Muslim Community"? The atrocities in Paris were the result of people painting an easy target on themselves in the middle of a Word War against Extremism. It is not about Freedom of Speech, those Cartoonists were NAIVE. They made an easy target for a massive Publicity win for the Extremists. They will use this and the fact that their "Martyrs" have gone to La-la Land to recruit even more Young Muslims that Western Society has managed to marginalise. This has been 40 years in the making. It won't stop. These were easy targets. As life gets made more difficult in Iraq now that the Government has finally been formed and allocated budgets (oh let me guess, nobody mentioned the country has been in limbo for 6 months while ISIL moved in because they had no budgets for paying any money for Weapons or Ammunition due to the horse trading after the Elections) At EVERY step of the way you have made it easy for the Disenfranchised to find a route to Extremism. Humanity is at War, hundreds of Muslims are dying every week FIGHTING EXTREMISTS, many of whom are EUROPEAN. Stop acting like woolly headed bloody Liberals and either start to fight Extremism (do something to engage with the disenfranchised in Europe and help the Nations here with more Technology and support) or keep painting come and get me Nutters targets on yourselves. Paris was tragic. Naive fools or Defenders of free speech murdered by Psychopaths who were outcast by the very PC world you thought you inhabited. Words, Rallies and Cartoons will not stop them. They will keep coming and they are no longer Idealists they are now Battle Hardened Veterans. They will find ways out of Syria/Iraq and back to their holes in the ground and create the next generation. It is Common Sense to walk on a Pavement with your eyes open. Unfortnately, too many people these days walk while looking at their Smartphones not at what is in front of them. Wake up and smell the coffee or pour petrol onto a fire in the name of free speech. Your choice. Send in troops now to help the Arab Nations destroy these monsters. Leave bloody Assad (Evil Nasty Tyrant) alone and work through the Russians & Iranians to help HIM destroy these monsters. But FFS stop lighting Candles, the next bunch of Nutters are already checked in on Ryanair from Turkey to somewhere in Europe. They don't even need a suitcase. Just before you go to bed tonight, ask yourselves, at the HEIGHT of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (oh yeah, Extremists killing people in the name of Religion on your own doorstep) How many active members of the IRA & Loyalist groups were there? 100? 1000? maybe 5,000? There are at least 100,000 nutters in Syria & Iraq, all battle hardened. They won't stop because of some protest rallies. They have to be Exterminated 3 down only 99,997 to go then.........at least today does without a trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 I can only agree that the modern world is under attack from Jihadists who reject our secular values and rampant commercialism. People who (unlike so many of us) are more interested in prophets than profits. But can we simply 'exterminate' this real and growing threat to modernity by matching their extreme level of violence with our own? Its been done before I suppose, and we must stand up for what we believe in (whatever that is) but I can't help but think that our experience in Afghanistan shows that as soon as you kill one extremist you automaticly recruit two others. So it would seem that a bloody war of attrition with extreme Islam is underway, a war that has no end in sight and that no sane person could possibly want. History shows all too clearly that exterminating people is a relatively simple business for terrorist groups or for nations as wealthy and powerful as we are, but exterminating an idea that has taken root in the mind's of men is quite another matter. This is a huge question that the wisest statesman might struggle to answer, so I'm not about to claim that I'm able to do so here on a football forum. However, it seems to me that we are at war with religious extremism not because of what we do, but because of what we are. This fundamental incompatibility between modernity and its focus on secular capitalism, and a much older world that rejects those godless values may prove to be utterly intractable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 I apologise, obviously I didn't understand what you wrote. Perhaps you can repeat what you said? Jeff, I always admire a poster who comes on here and apologise, and so Thankyou for that, I apologise for throwing up the Masons thing. I said it was good that the Muslim council had cme out and condemned the outrage and hoped it would create unity among us all, or words to that effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 So the West will continue to talk about freedom of expression. It is a giant woosh. Humanity is at war with Extremist Muslims, not the West. Muslims murdered Indians in Mubai of every religion. Muslims killed Muslims in Paris. While it is an atrocity that something like 16 people have now died in France, what about the 33 Police Cadets (Muslims) who were murdered by Al Qaeda in the Gulf in Yemen this week? Those poor sods in one of the poorest Nations in the world are in the frontline fighting YOUR war and I haven't seen any great debate about what The West should do to help fight this evil at it's source. The Jordanian Pilot shot down (Muslim) after a bombing run on ISIL in Syria? The Emirati Pilot (Muslim) killed training for Joint Bombing runs with the Egyptian Air Force on extremists in Libya (Where did the West go after letting the Extremist loose over there?). How about some Cartoons for the Iraqi troops shot in the head one after the other last week trying to STOP these extremists? Nope, not seen any messages of Condolence. The West doesn't have psychopaths so we can be Judgemental. How can you argue about defending a Cartoon that offends Muslims when YOU - YES YOU and all your Institutions IGNORED thousands of claims of Sexual Abuse and Grooming across the North of England because "You didn't want to offend the Muslim Community"? The atrocities in Paris were the result of people painting an easy target on themselves in the middle of a Word War against Extremism. It is not about Freedom of Speech, those Cartoonists were NAIVE. They made an easy target for a massive Publicity win for the Extremists. They will use this and the fact that their "Martyrs" have gone to La-la Land to recruit even more Young Muslims that Western Society has managed to marginalise. This has been 40 years in the making. It won't stop. These were easy targets. As life gets made more difficult in Iraq now that the Government has finally been formed and allocated budgets (oh let me guess, nobody mentioned the country has been in limbo for 6 months while ISIL moved in because they had no budgets for paying any money for Weapons or Ammunition due to the horse trading after the Elections) At EVERY step of the way you have made it easy for the Disenfranchised to find a route to Extremism. Humanity is at War, hundreds of Muslims are dying every week FIGHTING EXTREMISTS, many of whom are EUROPEAN. Stop acting like woolly headed bloody Liberals and either start to fight Extremism (do something to engage with the disenfranchised in Europe and help the Nations here with more Technology and support) or keep painting come and get me Nutters targets on yourselves. Paris was tragic. Naive fools or Defenders of free speech murdered by Psychopaths who were outcast by the very PC world you thought you inhabited. Words, Rallies and Cartoons will not stop them. They will keep coming and they are no longer Idealists they are now Battle Hardened Veterans. They will find ways out of Syria/Iraq and back to their holes in the ground and create the next generation. It is Common Sense to walk on a Pavement with your eyes open. Unfortnately, too many people these days walk while looking at their Smartphones not at what is in front of them. Wake up and smell the coffee or pour petrol onto a fire in the name of free speech. Your choice. Send in troops now to help the Arab Nations destroy these monsters. Leave bloody Assad (Evil Nasty Tyrant) alone and work through the Russians & Iranians to help HIM destroy these monsters. But FFS stop lighting Candles, the next bunch of Nutters are already checked in on Ryanair from Turkey to somewhere in Europe. They don't even need a suitcase. Just before you go to bed tonight, ask yourselves, at the HEIGHT of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (oh yeah, Extremists killing people in the name of Religion on your own doorstep) How many active members of the IRA & Loyalist groups were there? 100? 1000? maybe 5,000? There are at least 100,000 nutters in Syria & Iraq, all battle hardened. They won't stop because of some protest rallies. They have to be Exterminated Hi Phil, a very good summary / warning. The big problem with us going over there to help is that it is seen as Western invasion. We need to give the Palestinians a proper land, that must be a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2902821/Killers-betray-Islam-Muslims-driven-wilfully-perverted-misinterpretation-faith-says-academic.html Not that I read the mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks Sums up my point nicely An excellent piece Thought you would like that. For me, it is one of the most thoughtful expressions I've seen on the issue. Indeed, it's a really good piece. I tire of freedom of speech/satire defences of crappy awful things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 A cracking rebuttal of the demand for an apology http://www.islam21c.com/special/a-james-obrien-masterclass-in-how-to-deal-with-people-demanding-that-muslims-apologise-for-charliehebdo/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 https://harriet4liberty.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 (edited) I tire of freedom of speech/satire defences of crappy awful things. I tire of those who are unable to see that free speech cannot be conditional on not offending anyone. Once you start limiting free speech for good reasons then its easy to limit it for bad. Free speech is a corner stone of a liberal democracy - along with sexual freedom, gender and race equality, freedom of association, religious choice, right to vote etc. Those people who are most offended by puerile cartoons would also remove the other rights you supposedly hold so dear. Edited 10 January, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Seems Annonymous has decided to get in on the war......... #OpCharlieHebdo: http://rt.com/news/221331-anonymous-attack-terrorist-website/ Is it me or did life seem simpler when all we had to worry about was the IRA and evil commies......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 I tire of those who are unable to see that free speech cannot be conditional on not offending anyone. Once you start limiting free speech for good reasons then its easy to limit it for bad. Free speech is a corner stone of a liberal democracy - along with sexual freedom, gender and race equality, freedom of association, religious choice, right to vote etc. Those people who are most offended by puerile cartoons would also remove the other rights you supposedly hold so dear. Quite so. I'd add that defending freedom of expression means (above all) defending the right of others to say/do things you don't like. I also think freedom of expression is much misunderstood in the sense of its being claimed as some sort of cornerstone of Western democracy. It isn't, and it has to be fought for every step of the way, protected against governments (all of which will display authoritarian tendencies of some kind or other) as much as against terrorists and those standing in line behind them with their 'they deserved it' garbage. Since Magna Carta, free speech is something asserted by the many (or more) against the few (or one, in King John's case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Really? It is hardly equal rights in the Bible... Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands. Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Titus 2:4-5 Teach the young women to be obedient to their own husbands ......... There are hundreds of other examples of some bizarre "morality" in the Bible. The difference being that Christianity has evolved and the Bible is not followed to the word- has been adapted etc without literal meanings being taken. Difference with Islam is in many Muslim countries it is still followed and practiced in its backwards ways from decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 A cracking rebuttal of the demand for an apology http://www.islam21c.com/special/a-james-obrien-masterclass-in-how-to-deal-with-people-demanding-that-muslims-apologise-for-charliehebdo/ I agree. There can't be enough condemning of the incident though in my opinion, by Islamic organisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 So the West will continue to talk about freedom of expression. It is a giant woosh. Humanity is at war with Extremist Muslims, not the West. Muslims murdered Indians in Mubai of every religion. Muslims killed Muslims in Paris. While it is an atrocity that something like 16 people have now died in France, what about the 33 Police Cadets (Muslims) who were murdered by Al Qaeda in the Gulf in Yemen this week? Those poor sods in one of the poorest Nations in the world are in the frontline fighting YOUR war and I haven't seen any great debate about what The West should do to help fight this evil at it's source. The Jordanian Pilot shot down (Muslim) after a bombing run on ISIL in Syria? The Emirati Pilot (Muslim) killed training for Joint Bombing runs with the Egyptian Air Force on extremists in Libya (Where did the West go after letting the Extremist loose over there?). How about some Cartoons for the Iraqi troops shot in the head one after the other last week trying to STOP these extremists? Nope, not seen any messages of Condolence. The West doesn't have psychopaths so we can be Judgemental. How can you argue about defending a Cartoon that offends Muslims when YOU - YES YOU and all your Institutions IGNORED thousands of claims of Sexual Abuse and Grooming across the North of England because "You didn't want to offend the Muslim Community"? The atrocities in Paris were the result of people painting an easy target on themselves in the middle of a Word War against Extremism. It is not about Freedom of Speech, those Cartoonists were NAIVE. They made an easy target for a massive Publicity win for the Extremists. They will use this and the fact that their "Martyrs" have gone to La-la Land to recruit even more Young Muslims that Western Society has managed to marginalise. This has been 40 years in the making. It won't stop. These were easy targets. As life gets made more difficult in Iraq now that the Government has finally been formed and allocated budgets (oh let me guess, nobody mentioned the country has been in limbo for 6 months while ISIL moved in because they had no budgets for paying any money for Weapons or Ammunition due to the horse trading after the Elections) At EVERY step of the way you have made it easy for the Disenfranchised to find a route to Extremism. Humanity is at War, hundreds of Muslims are dying every week FIGHTING EXTREMISTS, many of whom are EUROPEAN. Stop acting like woolly headed bloody Liberals and either start to fight Extremism (do something to engage with the disenfranchised in Europe and help the Nations here with more Technology and support) or keep painting come and get me Nutters targets on yourselves. Paris was tragic. Naive fools or Defenders of free speech murdered by Psychopaths who were outcast by the very PC world you thought you inhabited. Words, Rallies and Cartoons will not stop them. They will keep coming and they are no longer Idealists they are now Battle Hardened Veterans. They will find ways out of Syria/Iraq and back to their holes in the ground and create the next generation. It is Common Sense to walk on a Pavement with your eyes open. Unfortnately, too many people these days walk while looking at their Smartphones not at what is in front of them. Wake up and smell the coffee or pour petrol onto a fire in the name of free speech. Your choice. Send in troops now to help the Arab Nations destroy these monsters. Leave bloody Assad (Evil Nasty Tyrant) alone and work through the Russians & Iranians to help HIM destroy these monsters. But FFS stop lighting Candles, the next bunch of Nutters are already checked in on Ryanair from Turkey to somewhere in Europe. They don't even need a suitcase. Just before you go to bed tonight, ask yourselves, at the HEIGHT of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (oh yeah, Extremists killing people in the name of Religion on your own doorstep) How many active members of the IRA & Loyalist groups were there? 100? 1000? maybe 5,000? There are at least 100,000 nutters in Syria & Iraq, all battle hardened. They won't stop because of some protest rallies. They have to be Exterminated Isn't it time for the Middle East to sort their own sh!t out? There's more than enough money down there and if it's left for us or the Yanks go in again it will just end up with the same old mess 'evil western occupiers etc etc'. It's about time the countries down there grew a pair of balls, forgot about this pathetic Sunni/Sh!!te nonsense and moved together towards something resembling civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Seriously WTF is wrong with our species? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2904497/19-dead-18-injured-Nigeria-market-blast-police.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Seriously WTF is wrong with our species? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2904497/19-dead-18-injured-Nigeria-market-blast-police.html F uck me a year older than my daughter .....total scum. Then again Africa seems to have a very different moral compass to the rest of the world horrible things happen every where but they seem to happen more often in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 F uck me a year older than my daughter .....total scum. Then again Africa seems to have a very different moral compass to the rest of the world horrible things happen every where but they seem to happen more often in Africa. Africa is a big place, populated by vast numbers of varying cultures, you know. It's like saying that Europe has a terrible moral compass because of the Holocaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Isn't it time for the Middle East to sort their own sh!t out? There's more than enough money down there and if it's left for us or the Yanks go in again it will just end up with the same old mess 'evil western occupiers etc etc'. It's about time the countries down there grew a pair of balls, forgot about this pathetic Sunni/Sh!!te nonsense and moved together towards something resembling civilization. Oh do you have any idea how stupid THAT comment is? 1) They ARE trying to sort their own sh1t out again, around 100 Muslims were killed last week fighting Extremists, approximately 3,000 UAE Citizens are in National Service or been through it in the past 8 months so that they have the forces to cope on their own 2) The US keep coming in and encouraging people to rise up or simply invade countries THEN when the budget gets tough or an election comes up they bugger off. Perhaps IF outsiders stopped giving Asylum to Extremists 30 odd years ago, Perhaps IF outsiders stopped meddling, Perhaps IF the West stopped seeking to impose their values of Civilisation on a Civilisation that is far older than the West things would have settled down. Where do you want to start? Yemen? A failed state because the Soviet Union used it to try and gain a foothold in the Arabian Peninsula, even down to trying to "invade" (or at least encourage Communist Insurgents) to destroy Oman. Why did the US support Saudi? Where WERE the Bin Laden family when 9/11 went down. How about The West deciding to Bomb Assad into Oblivion 18 months ago? He was an Evil Tyrant BUT he kept the Extremists at bay. Whatever happened to all that Gung Ho stuff? It is TOO LATE. Bury your heads in the sand sing lalala it's not our problem, let them sort it out. Great. They ****ING ARE TRYING TO and dying in far greater numbers than Westerners are. At the moment. To Extremists you are Ants. They want nothing more than to Impose THEIR will and way of life on YOU. Oh it's OK it's Religion not Politics so it's not like Hitler. Who cares that he invaded bloody Poland. Iraq had no problem with Isis when it had a functioning Army, nor did Libya. Oh but some people were being Tortured. Duh. No that does NOT excuse the Gassing of the Kurds and the "OMG how Evil" Suppression of Western Values of Free Speech. But no. The West supported Revolutions and then went home. The President of Afghanistan is begging for the Coalition to stay longer, their forces aren't yet ready, but no Obama made an Election Promise. Iraq? Oh well guess what, there ARE thousands of US Troops there already, rebuilding their old Camps. British Forces have been moved to Cyprus. But nobody wants to go and help. The Peshmurga can do it alone..... Just send them some old Kalashnikovs. And then guess what will happen. The Kurds will keep going and claim parts of Turkey and it will keep going. Then the guys YOU funded will be fighting Turkey who are an Ally and then you'll be fighting the guys YOU trained - didn't THAT happen before? Stop talking, stop debating. Exterminate every one of them and jail every single one that tries to get back to the EU for LIFE, away from Criminals and Young Offenders who THEY could recruit. It will not end. There is no negotiation. There is NO sticking head in sand. Oh and MAYBE you could adopt some policies that do NOT alienate Muslim Youth. Seeing as most of those murdering Muslims are FROM BLOODY EUROPE. Sort your own sh1t out don't leave Policemen in Yemen on US$100 a month to do the work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 January, 2015 Share Posted 10 January, 2015 Oh do you have any idea how stupid THAT comment is? 1) They ARE trying to sort their own sh1t out again, around 100 Muslims were killed last week fighting Extremists, approximately 3,000 UAE Citizens are in National Service or been through it in the past 8 months so that they have the forces to cope on their own 2) The US keep coming in and encouraging people to rise up or simply invade countries THEN when the budget gets tough or an election comes up they bugger off. Perhaps IF outsiders stopped giving Asylum to Extremists 30 odd years ago, Perhaps IF outsiders stopped meddling, Perhaps IF the West stopped seeking to impose their values of Civilisation on a Civilisation that is far older than the West things would have settled down. Where do you want to start? Yemen? A failed state because the Soviet Union used it to try and gain a foothold in the Arabian Peninsula, even down to trying to "invade" (or at least encourage Communist Insurgents) to destroy Oman. Why did the US support Saudi? Where WERE the Bin Laden family when 9/11 went down. How about The West deciding to Bomb Assad into Oblivion 18 months ago? He was an Evil Tyrant BUT he kept the Extremists at bay. Whatever happened to all that Gung Ho stuff? It is TOO LATE. Bury your heads in the sand sing lalala it's not our problem, let them sort it out. Great. They ****ING ARE TRYING TO and dying in far greater numbers than Westerners are. At the moment. To Extremists you are Ants. They want nothing more than to Impose THEIR will and way of life on YOU. Oh it's OK it's Religion not Politics so it's not like Hitler. Who cares that he invaded bloody Poland. Iraq had no problem with Isis when it had a functioning Army, nor did Libya. Oh but some people were being Tortured. Duh. No that does NOT excuse the Gassing of the Kurds and the "OMG how Evil" Suppression of Western Values of Free Speech. But no. The West supported Revolutions and then went home. The President of Afghanistan is begging for the Coalition to stay longer, their forces aren't yet ready, but no Obama made an Election Promise. Iraq? Oh well guess what, there ARE thousands of US Troops there already, rebuilding their old Camps. British Forces have been moved to Cyprus. But nobody wants to go and help. The Peshmurga can do it alone..... Just send them some old Kalashnikovs. And then guess what will happen. The Kurds will keep going and claim parts of Turkey and it will keep going. Then the guys YOU funded will be fighting Turkey who are an Ally and then you'll be fighting the guys YOU trained - didn't THAT happen before? Stop talking, stop debating. Exterminate every one of them and jail every single one that tries to get back to the EU for LIFE, away from Criminals and Young Offenders who THEY could recruit. It will not end. There is no negotiation. There is NO sticking head in sand. Oh and MAYBE you could adopt some policies that do NOT alienate Muslim Youth. Seeing as most of those murdering Muslims are FROM BLOODY EUROPE. Sort your own sh1t out don't leave Policemen in Yemen on US$100 a month to do the work for you. Maybe if westerners stopped turning a blind eye to working for kleptocracy dictatorships because the money is good the morally bankrupt regimes would have fallen long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Really? It is hardly equal rights in the Bible... Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands. Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Titus 2:4-5 Teach the young women to be obedient to their own husbands ......... **** me , I'd wish I'd known this , I might have been tempted to sign on with the god botherers , what's it say about drinking ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Until the so called good Muslims start outing these extremists it wont stop.......but they are muslim first and citizens of whatever country second..........that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 I wish I'd known this , I might have been tempted to sign on with the god botherers Can't see your missus allowing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Until the so called good Muslims start outing these extremists it wont stop. They are already. Around 19/20 plots are foiled before execution by intelligence. That intelligence doesnt come from Christian accountants in Surrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Tim , had Mossad killed 12 innocent people in an European capital and then 4 innocent shoppers in a supermarket , do you think the reaction within the Muslim community would be the same . There always seems to be a lot of Muslims out in the streets protesting when Israel act in a barbaric way , is the hatred of these savages in France as much as the hatred of Israel . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 11 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 11 January, 2015 They are already. Around 19/20 plots are foiled before execution by intelligence. That intelligence doesnt come from Christian accountants in Surrey. Around 10/20 successful FBI cases are entrapment. "Hey wow, we've just caught a terrorist (that we radicalised and encouraged)" Got to keep those budget levels up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Around 10/20 successful FBI cases are entrapment. "Hey wow, we've just caught a terrorist (that we radicalised and encouraged)" Got to keep those budget levels up. But you forgot that link to the anecdotal news story based on conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Here's a "no sh!t Sherlock" fact for you: The war on terror has caused more casualties that terrorism itself. Who'd have thought (not the western press) http://stopwar.org.uk/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-terrorism-and-its-causes-a-graphic-account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 That's not a fact. It's an opinion. From an organisation with an agenda to promote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 That article is more than just someone's opinion. Who hasn't got an agenda to promote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 So the West will continue to talk about freedom of expression. It is a giant woosh. Humanity is at war with Extremist Muslims, not the West. Muslims murdered Indians in Mubai of every religion. Muslims killed Muslims in Paris. While it is an atrocity that something like 16 people have now died in France, what about the 33 Police Cadets (Muslims) who were murdered by Al Qaeda in the Gulf in Yemen this week? Those poor sods in one of the poorest Nations in the world are in the frontline fighting YOUR war and I haven't seen any great debate about what The West should do to help fight this evil at it's source. The Jordanian Pilot shot down (Muslim) after a bombing run on ISIL in Syria? The Emirati Pilot (Muslim) killed training for Joint Bombing runs with the Egyptian Air Force on extremists in Libya (Where did the West go after letting the Extremist loose over there?). How about some Cartoons for the Iraqi troops shot in the head one after the other last week trying to STOP these extremists? Nope, not seen any messages of Condolence. The West doesn't have psychopaths so we can be Judgemental. How can you argue about defending a Cartoon that offends Muslims when YOU - YES YOU and all your Institutions IGNORED thousands of claims of Sexual Abuse and Grooming across the North of England because "You didn't want to offend the Muslim Community"? The atrocities in Paris were the result of people painting an easy target on themselves in the middle of a Word War against Extremism. It is not about Freedom of Speech, those Cartoonists were NAIVE. They made an easy target for a massive Publicity win for the Extremists. They will use this and the fact that their "Martyrs" have gone to La-la Land to recruit even more Young Muslims that Western Society has managed to marginalise. This has been 40 years in the making. It won't stop. These were easy targets. As life gets made more difficult in Iraq now that the Government has finally been formed and allocated budgets (oh let me guess, nobody mentioned the country has been in limbo for 6 months while ISIL moved in because they had no budgets for paying any money for Weapons or Ammunition due to the horse trading after the Elections) At EVERY step of the way you have made it easy for the Disenfranchised to find a route to Extremism. Humanity is at War, hundreds of Muslims are dying every week FIGHTING EXTREMISTS, many of whom are EUROPEAN. Stop acting like woolly headed bloody Liberals and either start to fight Extremism (do something to engage with the disenfranchised in Europe and help the Nations here with more Technology and support) or keep painting come and get me Nutters targets on yourselves. Paris was tragic. Naive fools or Defenders of free speech murdered by Psychopaths who were outcast by the very PC world you thought you inhabited. Words, Rallies and Cartoons will not stop them. They will keep coming and they are no longer Idealists they are now Battle Hardened Veterans. They will find ways out of Syria/Iraq and back to their holes in the ground and create the next generation. It is Common Sense to walk on a Pavement with your eyes open. Unfortnately, too many people these days walk while looking at their Smartphones not at what is in front of them. Wake up and smell the coffee or pour petrol onto a fire in the name of free speech. Your choice. Send in troops now to help the Arab Nations destroy these monsters. Leave bloody Assad (Evil Nasty Tyrant) alone and work through the Russians & Iranians to help HIM destroy these monsters. But FFS stop lighting Candles, the next bunch of Nutters are already checked in on Ryanair from Turkey to somewhere in Europe. They don't even need a suitcase. Just before you go to bed tonight, ask yourselves, at the HEIGHT of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (oh yeah, Extremists killing people in the name of Religion on your own doorstep) How many active members of the IRA & Loyalist groups were there? 100? 1000? maybe 5,000? There are at least 100,000 nutters in Syria & Iraq, all battle hardened. They won't stop because of some protest rallies. They have to be Exterminated One thing that often perturbs me is the fact that some of these Arab nations use their vast wealth to buy football clubs and needless (obscene!) luxuries ahead of using it to foster peaceful resolutions in their own backyard ! I don't say this as a criticism of your post Phil but reckon that the £1 billion spent on Man City could very easily have been better used to build schools, hospitals etc.. in the region ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 One thing that often perturbs me is the fact that some of these Arab nations use their vast wealth to buy football clubs and needless (obscene!) luxuries ahead of using it to foster peaceful resolutions in their own backyard ! I don't say this as a criticism of your post Phil but reckon that the £1 billion spent on Man City could very easily have been better used to build schools, hospitals etc.. in the region ! Thats why the UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi etc are rotten to the core. The wealth of the country goes not to the people but to the ruling family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Thats why the UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi etc are rotten to the core. The wealth of the country goes not to the people but to the ruling family. That's a bit of a generalisation, but I'll make an equally generalised comment. It's not really true. A significant portion of the wealth goes to the citizens. They get free everything you can think of. Including cash. You need to remember that only maybe 10% of the population are citizens. The other 90% aren't citizens and never will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 That's a bit of a generalisation, but I'll make an equally generalised comment. It's not really true. A significant portion of the wealth goes to the citizens. They get free everything you can think of. Including cash. You need to remember that only maybe 10% of the population are citizens. The other 90% aren't citizens and never will be. The fact that the ruling families dont keep it all themselves but graciously hand some down to the people doesnt really improve the situation.....in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 The fact that the ruling families dont keep it all themselves but graciously hand some down to the people doesnt really improve the situation.....in general. Agreed, but not all muslims are Arabs. And not all Arabs are from oil-rich Gulf States. The point that was being made (I think) is that part of the root of this problem stems from oil rich ruling families in the Gulf not building schools, hospitals or other facilities in the Gulf region. That simply isn't true. There are plenty of schools, universities, hospitals, clinics and any thing else you can think of in the Gulf region. These terrorists come from Bradford. Or Hackney. Or Marseilles. Or Peshawar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Oh do you have any idea how stupid THAT comment is? 1) They ARE trying to sort their own sh1t out again, around 100 Muslims were killed last week fighting Extremists, approximately 3,000 UAE Citizens are in National Service or been through it in the past 8 months so that they have the forces to cope on their own 2) The US keep coming in and encouraging people to rise up or simply invade countries THEN when the budget gets tough or an election comes up they bugger off. Perhaps IF outsiders stopped giving Asylum to Extremists 30 odd years ago, Perhaps IF outsiders stopped meddling, Perhaps IF the West stopped seeking to impose their values of Civilisation on a Civilisation that is far older than the West things would have settled down. Where do you want to start? Yemen? A failed state because the Soviet Union used it to try and gain a foothold in the Arabian Peninsula, even down to trying to "invade" (or at least encourage Communist Insurgents) to destroy Oman. Why did the US support Saudi? Where WERE the Bin Laden family when 9/11 went down. How about The West deciding to Bomb Assad into Oblivion 18 months ago? He was an Evil Tyrant BUT he kept the Extremists at bay. Whatever happened to all that Gung Ho stuff? It is TOO LATE. Bury your heads in the sand sing lalala it's not our problem, let them sort it out. Great. They ****ING ARE TRYING TO and dying in far greater numbers than Westerners are. At the moment. To Extremists you are Ants. They want nothing more than to Impose THEIR will and way of life on YOU. Oh it's OK it's Religion not Politics so it's not like Hitler. Who cares that he invaded bloody Poland. Iraq had no problem with Isis when it had a functioning Army, nor did Libya. Oh but some people were being Tortured. Duh. No that does NOT excuse the Gassing of the Kurds and the "OMG how Evil" Suppression of Western Values of Free Speech. But no. The West supported Revolutions and then went home. The President of Afghanistan is begging for the Coalition to stay longer, their forces aren't yet ready, but no Obama made an Election Promise. Iraq? Oh well guess what, there ARE thousands of US Troops there already, rebuilding their old Camps. British Forces have been moved to Cyprus. But nobody wants to go and help. The Peshmurga can do it alone..... Just send them some old Kalashnikovs. And then guess what will happen. The Kurds will keep going and claim parts of Turkey and it will keep going. Then the guys YOU funded will be fighting Turkey who are an Ally and then you'll be fighting the guys YOU trained - didn't THAT happen before? Stop talking, stop debating. Exterminate every one of them and jail every single one that tries to get back to the EU for LIFE, away from Criminals and Young Offenders who THEY could recruit. It will not end. There is no negotiation. There is NO sticking head in sand. Oh and MAYBE you could adopt some policies that do NOT alienate Muslim Youth. Seeing as most of those murdering Muslims are FROM BLOODY EUROPE. Sort your own sh1t out don't leave Policemen in Yemen on US$100 a month to do the work for you. If Arab states spent more on their forces instead of World Cups and big shiney buildings in the desert maybe they would be able to sort the problem out. The UK sending in troops is NOT the answer, it will just make things worse. The best way for the UK to alienate young British muslims is to send troops abroad to kill their 'brothers' in the Middle East - we've seen that before. Whatever our motives for going into the war it will always be painted in the same way by the extremists and many muslims over here - we will be the evil colonial force killing innocents - again. Whatever happens we will do fine over here anyway thanks. How many attacks have there been on UK soil over the last decade or so? We had 7/7 and the Lee Rigby thing, after that I am struggling to remember anything significant. Compare the amount of victims there (53?) with how many troops have died in Iraq and Afganistan, and the money spent - it's just not worth our while. ALL the Middle East states need to get together and form a peace-keeping army, forget all the pathetic Sunni/Sh!te stuff and actually do something for the good of your people. The west chucking bombs around is NOT the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 11 January, 2015 Share Posted 11 January, 2015 Oh do you have any idea how stupid THAT comment is? 1) They ARE trying to sort their own sh1t out again, around 100 Muslims were killed last week fighting Extremists, approximately 3,000 UAE Citizens are in National Service or been through it in the past 8 months so that they have the forces to cope on their own 2) The US keep coming in and encouraging people to rise up or simply invade countries THEN when the budget gets tough or an election comes up they bugger off. Perhaps IF outsiders stopped giving Asylum to Extremists 30 odd years ago, Perhaps IF outsiders stopped meddling, Perhaps IF the West stopped seeking to impose their values of Civilisation on a Civilisation that is far older than the West things would have settled down. Where do you want to start? Yemen? A failed state because the Soviet Union used it to try and gain a foothold in the Arabian Peninsula, even down to trying to "invade" (or at least encourage Communist Insurgents) to destroy Oman. Why did the US support Saudi? Where WERE the Bin Laden family when 9/11 went down. How about The West deciding to Bomb Assad into Oblivion 18 months ago? He was an Evil Tyrant BUT he kept the Extremists at bay. Whatever happened to all that Gung Ho stuff? It is TOO LATE. Bury your heads in the sand sing lalala it's not our problem, let them sort it out. Great. They ****ING ARE TRYING TO and dying in far greater numbers than Westerners are. At the moment. To Extremists you are Ants. They want nothing more than to Impose THEIR will and way of life on YOU. Oh it's OK it's Religion not Politics so it's not like Hitler. Who cares that he invaded bloody Poland. Iraq had no problem with Isis when it had a functioning Army, nor did Libya. Oh but some people were being Tortured. Duh. No that does NOT excuse the Gassing of the Kurds and the "OMG how Evil" Suppression of Western Values of Free Speech. But no. The West supported Revolutions and then went home. The President of Afghanistan is begging for the Coalition to stay longer, their forces aren't yet ready, but no Obama made an Election Promise. Iraq? Oh well guess what, there ARE thousands of US Troops there already, rebuilding their old Camps. British Forces have been moved to Cyprus. But nobody wants to go and help. The Peshmurga can do it alone..... Just send them some old Kalashnikovs. And then guess what will happen. The Kurds will keep going and claim parts of Turkey and it will keep going. Then the guys YOU funded will be fighting Turkey who are an Ally and then you'll be fighting the guys YOU trained - didn't THAT happen before? Stop talking, stop debating. Exterminate every one of them and jail every single one that tries to get back to the EU for LIFE, away from Criminals and Young Offenders who THEY could recruit. It will not end. There is no negotiation. There is NO sticking head in sand. Oh and MAYBE you could adopt some policies that do NOT alienate Muslim Youth. Seeing as most of those murdering Muslims are FROM BLOODY EUROPE. Sort your own sh1t out don't leave Policemen in Yemen on US$100 a month to do the work for you. That said, Id laugh if ISIS invaded Dubai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 12 January, 2015 Share Posted 12 January, 2015 All you need to remember is this scum will kill you in a heart beat...........so protect what we as Christians hold dear....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 12 January, 2015 Share Posted 12 January, 2015 (edited) Thats why the UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi etc are rotten to the core. The wealth of the country goes not to the people but to the ruling family. Rubbish - if anything the problem is that money has been distributed in thoroughly inefficient ways: generous subsidies and jobs for life in the public sector that dwarfs everything else. The result of this social contract is to kill private initiative and economic dynamism that are a precondition for these states to join the 21st century. In Kuwait, a relatively democratic state, the electorate uses its voice to protect its privileges and resist change that is actually the preference of many of those at the top. Edited 12 January, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 January, 2015 Share Posted 12 January, 2015 All you need to remember is this scum will kill you in a heart beat...........so protect what we as Christians hold dear....... What about all the other Muslims they are killing or don't they count? What about all of us non-Christians, don't we have anything to protect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 12 January, 2015 Share Posted 12 January, 2015 All you need to remember is this scum will kill you in a heart beat...........so protect what we as Christians hold dear....... There are plenty of Christians that will kill you in a heart beat to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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