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davefoggy

How we fans stop VAR forever?

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The introduction of VAR is ruining football in my opinion. The general standard of referring is getting worse, probably because they know VAR will bail them out.

 

How can we get rid of this??

 

A petition?

Edited by davefoggy

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They will acknowledge how badly its gone down when it starts to affect them financially. It will have to change and it will just a shame about this sort of thing in the meantime.

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Can't believe you are so happy to roll over and accept it. Clearly not a real football fan

 

It's not often I agree with Batman, but to suggest he isn't a real football fan because he has a different opinion on VAR than you do is absurd.

 

Like any new technology, it will take time to perfect. Yes, it seems like it is not being used especially well with some of the disallowed goals we have seen recently, but if having it will prevent the kind of injustice such as Gabbi's opening 'goal' in the EFL cup final in 2017 then it can only be a good thing IMO.

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It's not often I agree with Batman, but to suggest he isn't a real football fan because he has a different opinion on VAR than you do is absurd.

 

Like any new technology, it will take time to perfect. Yes, it seems like it is not being used especially well with some of the disallowed goals we have seen recently, but if having it will prevent the kind of injustice such as Gabbi's opening 'goal' in the EFL cup final in 2017 then it can only be a good thing IMO.

If it were confined to those decisions only then no one would complain. It seems at the moment like the referees are abdicating their responsibilities and it erodes their authority imo because they are compelled to defer most of their decisions to a machine.

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It's not often I agree with Batman, but to suggest he isn't a real football fan because he has a different opinion on VAR than you do is absurd.

 

Like any new technology, it will take time to perfect. Yes, it seems like it is not being used especially well with some of the disallowed goals we have seen recently, but if having it will prevent the kind of injustice such as Gabbi's opening 'goal' in the EFL cup final in 2017 then it can only be a good thing IMO.

 

Apologies to Batman. But I really think it's the end of football as we know it. Can't wait to be in a league that doesn't have VAR

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VAR isn’t perfect but neither is having a Watford player punch the ball into our goal or having a perfectly good goal disallowed in a cup final.

 

They just need to tweak it.

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If it were confined to those decisions only then no one would complain. It seems at the moment like the referees are abdicating their responsibilities and it erodes their authority imo because they are compelled to defer most of their decisions to a machine.

 

I completely agree. But that isn't actually a problem with the technology itself, it is how it is being applied. There were always going to be some teething issues when it was first introduced, and even the FA/PL aren't so blinkered as to be blind to the current criticisms. I am 100% certain there will be a full review at the end of the season and a number of refinements and rule changes brought in for next season.

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Apologies to Batman. But I really think it's the end of football as we know it. Can't wait to be in a league that doesn't have VAR

 

That is just ridiculous.

 

One thing we have not seen, is completely disgraceful decisions going against us. Like Gabbiadini in the cup final.

 

Nor are we seeing players getting away with punching the ball into the goal....

 

VAR is not perfect, but to say it is the end of football as we know is tin-hat territory

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I'm split on VAR, on one hand it slows the game down and spoils the atmosphere; on the other hand it does level the playing field where once the bigger clubs would get an unconscious bias.

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I'm split on VAR, on one hand it slows the game down and spoils the atmosphere; on the other hand it does level the playing field where once the bigger clubs would get an unconscious bias.

 

i agree. On a Saints level so far it’s been pretty good to us and it hasn’t favoured the big clubs as I feared it would.

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It isn’t going away. So If you can’t beat them join them, I think we as a fan base need to embrace it, it might even help us!

 

How about we out banter the opposition fans where every time there is a VAR review we all sing V-A-R- no goal, to the tune of Disco D-I-S-C-O, we could even have hand movements spelling out VAR followed by drawing a TV like the ref does to indicate a VAR reviews, it would be proper funny to get that going, a decent original chant too.

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What's happened is that referees are no longer getting away with outrageously wrong or no decisions at all because VAR is getting it right most of the time. If the criteria for offside is breached then it's offside. What is wrong and this weekend I've watched at least half a dozen Premier matches and every time the VAR allowed or disallowed it was correct.

 

What is wrong is managers and players throwing childish tantrums when the decision goes against them. Coady of Wolves after the match still in denial that Lallana's assist for Mane was hand ball, Everybody could see it hit him on top of his shoulder. The VAR pictures as shown on TV should be on the big screens so that it is chrystal clear to everybody. If any body in Rugby behaved like football players they would be carded immediately and probably get a big suspension. What players and managers are doing is rank hypocrisy, for them great, no problem, against, big tantrums. Get used to it, at least in the main VAR doesn't favour the big teams as refs have been doing for years.

 

If it goes against us, accept it and move on. If a goal is not given for offside, that's because it's not a goal. Wherever the line is drawn that's the rule. The players have it in their own hands to stay onside, then it'll be given.

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So you are happy with it then?

 

We'd currently be in the bottom 3 without the fairness of VAR. We'd probably have won 2 more major trophies if it had always been in existence as well as the league title in 1984. Fans seem to have become so inured to the bias of referees in favour of the big clubs that they find it difficult to live without it. They are masochists.

 

I can remember so many crucial games where offside decisions more than a foot wrong were given against us when we were playing Man United, Man City, Liverpool etc but almost none in our favour. Now we are getting correct decisions given fairly some fans are finding it shocking. Man up and get over it.

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One ref who I think is leaning on it is Martin Atkinson - I thought he was deservedly top of the pile and rightfully a FIFA accredited ref. This season watching games he is officiating he seems to have lost his edge and is happy to use VAR as a crutch to eek out his top level refereeing career.

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It's not often I agree with Batman, but to suggest he isn't a real football fan because he has a different opinion on VAR than you do is absurd.

 

Like any new technology, it will take time to perfect. Yes, it seems like it is not being used especially well with some of the disallowed goals we have seen recently, but if having it will prevent the kind of injustice such as Gabbi's opening 'goal' in the EFL cup final in 2017 then it can only be a good thing IMO.

 

Your of course correct about the Gabbi offside goal that day but we may have been on the recieving end as I thought Stephens was lucky to stay on the pitch for a very poor challenge in the first half of that game.

 

The problem is that the genie is now out of the lamp and it ain't going back. Does being level actually exist in football now? In reality we'll need to start using electron microscopes to check none of the attackers hairs, cells, dandruff, etc were offside. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team no longer exists IMO which is sad, the game is and always shall be about scoring goals.

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It isn’t going away. So If you can’t beat them join them, I think we as a fan base need to embrace it, it might even help us!

 

How about we out banter the opposition fans where every time there is a VAR review we all sing V-A-R- no goal, to the tune of Disco D-I-S-C-O, we could even have hand movements spelling out VAR followed by drawing a TV like the ref does to indicate a VAR reviews, it would be proper funny to get that going, a decent original chant too.

 

We definitely need to get the fans in the ground more onboard because the whole system seems designed to make the viewing experience better for the "I watched the game on a stream and that makes me a proper fan" type of fan.

 

I'm thinking that some handmade VAR signs could take this to the next level. Maybe the club could give out card and crayons to the kids in the Family Stand and run a competition to see who can create the best one. As soon as a decision goes to VAR they could all wave them in the air to see who gets picked out on the big screen?

 

The club could also bring out a range of merch, how about a discount on any shirts printed with VAR on the back instead of a player name? It would look quality if a whole row of middle aged men wearing shirts over a hoodie turned around in the Northam and started pointing to the back of them to get on TV while waiting for a decision.

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Your of course correct about the Gabbi offside goal that day but we may have been on the recieving end as I thought Stephens was lucky to stay on the pitch for a very poor challenge in the first half of that game.

 

The problem is that the genie is now out of the lamp and it ain't going back. Does being level actually exist in football now? In reality we'll need to start using electron microscopes to check none of the attackers hairs, cells, dandruff, etc were offside. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team no longer exists IMO which is sad, the game is and always shall be about scoring goals.

 

What we actually had before VAR was referees giving the benefit of the doubt to teams like Man United, whether they were defending or attacking and against teams like us.

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How do you as a fan get rid of VAR? Same way you get rid of Gao, or Lowe, or whoever - vote with your feet. Don't go to games. Unfortunately VAR is here to stay, so it would be wasted effort. The only hope we have is that it gets better, quicker, smoother, like Rugby. I'd give the Stockley Park lot a minute to make a decision, or the refs decision stands.

 

Start the clock. 59...58...57...

 

Anyway haven't we benefitted from it more than it's hindered us so far? I guess that will even itself out in time, but still we've done OK so far.

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How do you as a fan get rid of VAR? Same way you get rid of Gao, or Lowe, or whoever - vote with your feet. Don't go to games. Unfortunately VAR is here to stay, so it would be wasted effort. The only hope we have is that it gets better, quicker, smoother, like Rugby. I'd give the Stockley Park lot a minute to make a decision, or the refs decision stands.

 

Start the clock. 59...58...57...

 

Anyway haven't we benefitted from it more than it's hindered us so far? I guess that will even itself out in time, but still we've done OK so far.

 

No it doesn't even out: it benefits teams like ours to the detriment of big clubs like Man United. At last we have a level playing field

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We definitely need to get the fans in the ground more onboard because the whole system seems designed to make the viewing experience better for the "I watched the game on a stream and that makes me a proper fan" type of fan.

 

I'm thinking that some handmade VAR signs could take this to the next level. Maybe the club could give out card and crayons to the kids in the Family Stand and run a competition to see who can create the best one. As soon as a decision goes to VAR they could all wave them in the air to see who gets picked out on the big screen?

 

The club could also bring out a range of merch, how about a discount on any shirts printed with VAR on the back instead of a player name? It would look quality if a whole row of middle aged men wearing shirts over a hoodie turned around in the Northam and started pointing to the back of them to get on TV while waiting for a decision.

 

VAR giant foam hands! They could wave when a decision is being reviewed then give it the thumbs up or down when it’s made, all whist chanting VAR it’s one of our own.

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There was heated debate when it was introduced in cricket, however it has worked out great after some initial problems. But of course it is unsurprising that the football authorities are arrogant and believe they know best rather than learning from other sports. To pretend that these offside checks are 100% accurate is the most absurd thing. I highly doubt they can atomically nail the precise frame that the ball leaves the attackers foot, and that the camera in line with the defense is absolutely perpendicular. All it needs is a margin of error introduced. The Premier League have not said what the margin of error is, but I have seen some estimates that it is 13cm. That is roughly half a boot which seems reasonable and would be clear daylight. Any offsides in that range should stay with the onfield decision.

 

Otherwise it has managed to remove most of the howlers. That Gazzaniga penalty against Chelsea for example was absurdly not given. I think it is worth keeping VAR for those decisions.

 

I do think what it has also shown is that the onfield calls do have a very high success rate, especially the assistant refs. The assistant referees are giving these marginal offsides in favour of the attacking side, which is what fans have always wanted. I know that is their guidelines this season, but I think they have been consistently doing this for years and have not really been credited with it.

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Before video referral was introduced in cricket, there was an entire Ashes series in Australia where England didn't get one lbw decision. That is the type of bias fans against video referral in football are rooting for. After decades of watching us being robbed by biased refereeing decisions, I breathe a sigh of relief that at long last we are playing a fair game.

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Before video referral was introduced in cricket, there was an entire Ashes series in Australia where England didn't get one lbw decision. That is the type of bias fans against video referral in football are rooting for. After decades of watching us being robbed by biased refereeing decisions, I breathe a sigh of relief that at long last we are playing a fair game.

 

This is true. At the moment everyone is getting ****ed equally. And it has removed a number of howlers.

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It needs improving but on the whole I think we’re better off with it than without it. A couple of changes I’d make are:

 

1. The bar for overturning a ref’s decision seems absurdly high, judging by some of the incidents which weren’t overturned.

2. The speed of use. If I can look at a five second replay and say, "that’s definitely come off his hand," why a professional referee needs to spend two minutes looking at it in slow mo. From 4 different angles I have no idea.

3. Introduce a margin or error for offsides of 6 inches. No more of this ‘his armpit is 1mm forward of the defenders knee’ BS. If you’re clearly within 6 inches, benefit of the doubt - onside. If you’re beyond that - offside. If you’re very close and it’s going to take 3 minute to analyse correctly - offside because you’re obviously at least 5 inches offside.

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No it doesn't even out: it benefits teams like ours to the detriment of big clubs like Man United. At last we have a level playing field

 

Exactly. VAR is a bit annoying but with the amount of blatantly wrong decisions we’ve been on the end of at bigger clubs over the years I’m surprised any Saints fan wants to go back to how it was.

 

It needs to be streamlined but it’s better overall IMO, if only for cutting down on the amount of diving.

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Remember our European quarter final v Anderlecht? We'd have won that if there had been VAR. In fact, the entire history of our football club would be so much better now.

 

If only there had been the fairness of VAR in the past, we'd now have more major trophies than Pompey.

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There was heated debate when it was introduced in cricket, however it has worked out great after some initial problems. But of course it is unsurprising that the football authorities are arrogant and believe they know best rather than learning from other sports. To pretend that these offside checks are 100% accurate is the most absurd thing. I highly doubt they can atomically nail the precise frame that the ball leaves the attackers foot, and that the camera in line with the defense is absolutely perpendicular. All it needs is a margin of error introduced. The Premier League have not said what the margin of error is, but I have seen some estimates that it is 13cm. That is roughly half a boot which seems reasonable and would be clear daylight. Any offsides in that range should stay with the onfield decision.

 

Otherwise it has managed to remove most of the howlers. That Gazzaniga penalty against Chelsea for example was absurdly not given. I think it is worth keeping VAR for those decisions.

 

I do think what it has also shown is that the onfield calls do have a very high success rate, especially the assistant refs. The assistant referees are giving these marginal offsides in favour of the attacking side, which is what fans have always wanted. I know that is their guidelines this season, but I think they have been consistently doing this for years and have not really been credited with it.

 

You've hit the nail on the head regarding the margin of error. I'll admit that I haven't done much research but I've yet to see any statistics/data surrounding the accuracy of the system. People on here are correctly saying that if the attackers boot is 1mm ahead of the line then he's offside but is the system as it stands today capable of such accuracy? Personally, I doubt it but if anyone can direct me to any scientific data that's been done on the system, it's calibration, accuracy and error estimation I'd be grateful.

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Remember our European quarter final v Anderlecht? We'd have won that if there had been VAR. In fact, the entire history of our football club would be so much better now.

 

If only there had been the fairness of VAR in the past, we'd now have more major trophies than Pompey.

 

Or we might not have won any had Bonny been a knee hair ahead of the dotted line

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There was heated debate when it was introduced in cricket, however it has worked out great after some initial problems. But of course it is unsurprising that the football authorities are arrogant and believe they know best rather than learning from other sports. To pretend that these offside checks are 100% accurate is the most absurd thing. I highly doubt they can atomically nail the precise frame that the ball leaves the attackers foot, and that the camera in line with the defense is absolutely perpendicular. All it needs is a margin of error introduced. The Premier League have not said what the margin of error is, but I have seen some estimates that it is 13cm. That is roughly half a boot which seems reasonable and would be clear daylight. Any offsides in that range should stay with the onfield decision.

 

Otherwise it has managed to remove most of the howlers. That Gazzaniga penalty against Chelsea for example was absurdly not given. I think it is worth keeping VAR for those decisions.

 

I do think what it has also shown is that the onfield calls do have a very high success rate, especially the assistant refs. The assistant referees are giving these marginal offsides in favour of the attacking side, which is what fans have always wanted. I know that is their guidelines this season, but I think they have been consistently doing this for years and have not really been credited with it.

 

You can't have margins or exceptions to rules, rules are rules, any way to manipulate them waters them down and then what's the point? The rule is pretty dam clear as day no ifs no buts it's the dam rule, stop crying and get over it. The rule clearly states any part of the body not including the hands and arms is offside, it does not say by such and such millimeters or inches, it's clear, any part full stop. Same as goal line tech, no ifs no buts if the full ball does not cross the line it's not a dam goal, it don't change for different teams or different days it's clear and fair to every one.

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I'm split on VAR, on one hand it slows the game down and spoils the atmosphere; on the other hand it does level the playing field where once the bigger clubs would get an unconscious bias.

 

i agree. On a Saints level so far it’s been pretty good to us and it hasn’t favoured the big clubs as I feared it would.

You obviously haven’t seen the Liverpool Wolves game earlier today.

What's happened is that referees are no longer getting away with outrageously wrong or no decisions at all because VAR is getting it right most of the time. If the criteria for offside is breached then it's offside. What is wrong and this weekend I've watched at least half a dozen Premier matches and every time the VAR allowed or disallowed it was correct.

 

What is wrong is managers and players throwing childish tantrums when the decision goes against them. Coady of Wolves after the match still in denial that Lallana's assist for Mane was hand ball, Everybody could see it hit him on top of his shoulder. The VAR pictures as shown on TV should be on the big screens so that it is chrystal clear to everybody. If any body in Rugby behaved like football players they would be carded immediately and probably get a big suspension. What players and managers are doing is rank hypocrisy, for them great, no problem, against, big tantrums. Get used to it, at least in the main VAR doesn't favour the big teams as refs have been doing for years.

 

If it goes against us, accept it and move on. If a goal is not given for offside, that's because it's not a goal. Wherever the line is drawn that's the rule. The players have it in their own hands to stay onside, then it'll be given.

 

Not every decision has been correct, especially the offside ones where several have been ridiculous.

 

Apparently the fuss about handball today was that earlier in the Lallana/Mané move the ball is said to have hit VVD in the arm but this was ‘too soon in the move’.

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I'm split on VAR, on one hand it slows the game down and spoils the atmosphere; on the other hand it does level the playing field where once the bigger clubs would get an unconscious bias.

 

On that hand, i'm against it.

 

It's too clinical, sterile. Football was in many ways about the controversy, the injustice.... The moral victories even though the scorelines said otherwise. The debates with your mates about dodgy decisions that simply couldn't be called one way or the other. It's about celebrating what you have seen, not what is about to be microanalysed and retconed.

 

I really hate VAR. Sod that we have benefited from it now, there will come a time when it goes the other way. And of course, it is still dependent on the fallable human bit that views the footage, it's just as crap as before in terms of decision making, only more drawn out.... Which makes it utterly f**king rancid.

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It needs improving but on the whole I think we’re better off with it than without it. A couple of changes I’d make are:

 

1. The bar for overturning a ref’s decision seems absurdly high, judging by some of the incidents which weren’t overturned.

2. The speed of use. If I can look at a five second replay and say, "that’s definitely come off his hand," why a professional referee needs to spend two minutes looking at it in slow mo. From 4 different angles I have no idea.

3. Introduce a margin or error for offsides of 6 inches. No more of this ‘his armpit is 1mm forward of the defenders knee’ BS. If you’re clearly within 6 inches, benefit of the doubt - onside. If you’re beyond that - offside. If you’re very close and it’s going to take 3 minute to analyse correctly - offside because you’re obviously at least 5 inches offside.

 

Will it ever get to the point that a striker with an uncontrollable erection gets VAR'd for offside I wonder? Best make it 10 inches. Nobody has a 10 incher.

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That's why VAR is so helpful. Pompey fans whingeing that Stokes was offside is instantly disproved by video evidence. The European quarter-final v Anderlecht was a bit before your time but it was a real blight on our history. The referee had been bribed to throw the 1st leg in Belgium. We'd have won a European trophy that year if there had been VAR.

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You can't have margins or exceptions to rules, rules are rules, any way to manipulate them waters them down and then what's the point? The rule is pretty dam clear as day no ifs no buts it's the dam rule, stop crying and get over it. The rule clearly states any part of the body not including the hands and arms is offside, it does not say by such and such millimeters or inches, it's clear, any part full stop. Same as goal line tech, no ifs no buts if the full ball does not cross the line it's not a dam goal, it don't change for different teams or different days it's clear and fair to every one.

 

You misread me, slightly intentionally I think to get across your rather unnecessarily aggressive point. I am asking what the margin of error is the technology and it should be built it to the system. I do not believe it is 100% accurate. To be 100% accurate it needs to stop and the exact frame the ball leaves the attackers foot. Can they do that to the atomic level when there is no part of the ball touching their foot? And then the camera needs to be absolutely parallel to the offside line at that exact moment it leaves their foot, which would be a challenge given the defense is constantly in motion at high speeds. At the very least they should release the figures on how accurate the technology is. If they are going to adjudicate it to the millimeter, with no margin of error, then the technology needs to 100% perfect every time. If not, then they need to also tell us as it could be costing goals.

Edited by sydney_saint

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You misread me, slightly intentionally I think to get across your rather unnecessarily aggressive point. I am asking what the margin of error is the technology and it should be built it to the system. I do not believe it is 100% accurate. To be 100% accurate it needs to stop and the exact frame the ball leaves the attackers foot. Can they do that to the atomic level when there is no part of the ball touching their foot? And then the camera needs to be 100% accurate parallel to the offside line at that exact moment it leaves their foot, which would be a challenge given the defense is constantly in motion at high speeds. At the very least they should release the figures on how accurate the technology is. If they are going to adjudicate it to the millimeter, with no margin of error, then the technology needs to 100% accurate every time. If it isn't 100% accurate, then they need to also tell us as it could be costing goals.

I agree. There is too much faith in technology and many people don’t understand the need to allow for the margin of error in any measuring system.

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You misread me, slightly intentionally I think to get across your rather unnecessarily aggressive point. I am asking what the margin of error is the technology and it should be built it to the system. I do not believe it is 100% accurate. To be 100% accurate it needs to stop and the exact frame the ball leaves the attackers foot. Can they do that to the atomic level when there is no part of the ball touching their foot? And then the camera needs to be 100% accurate parallel to the offside line at that exact moment it leaves their foot, which would be a challenge given the defense is constantly in motion at high speeds. At the very least they should release the figures on how accurate the technology is. If they are going to adjudicate it to the millimeter, with no margin of error, then the technology needs to 100% accurate every time. If it isn't 100% accurate, then they need to also tell us as it could be costing goals.

 

That’s nonsense, the law just needs to state that the benefit of doubt goes to the attacker.

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I prefer it nothing worse than your team getting done by stupid offside goals or other infringements refs and linos seem incapable of spotting. People seem to forget how it was the constant inept displays by match officials that caused VAR to be brought in.

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That's why VAR is so helpful. Pompey fans whingeing that Stokes was offside is instantly disproved by video evidence. The European quarter-final v Anderlecht was a bit before your time but it was a real blight on our history. The referee had been bribed to throw the 1st leg in Belgium. We'd have won a European trophy that year if there had been VAR.

 

Nice to think that. But we would have had to beat Hamburg in the final if we got that far. I doubt that any second division side in any league has ever won a european trophy. Maybe they might have done had VAR existed...

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VAR isn’t perfect but neither is having a Watford player punch the ball into our goal or having a perfectly good goal disallowed in a cup final.

 

They just need to tweak it.

Exactly this.

 

Have offside decided by feet position only, and give the Video Assistant Ref (it's not a machine!) 30 seconds to make a judgement. Occasionally he'll make a mistake (by millimetres), but so what? Better then a plethora of on-field ref's centimetre or metre mistakes in the past. I don't understand why people whine about minuscule mistakes and think we should go back to the old huge ones.

 

VAR has a better view than the on field ref. No-one (apart from Whitey Grandad) can argue about that. The only legitimate complaint is if it takes too long (like the farce in the Women's WC). Thankfully the PL hasn't made that mistake. As I said, give VAR 30 seconds max to rule on offside or overturn any other decision, otherwise it stands.

 

Simples.

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Just a couple of the hundreds of pre-VAR injustices:

 

Diego Maradona's Hand of God

 

Diego Maradona is one of the best ever players to have played football, but this goal by the diminutive Argentine genius was clearly scored with his hand.

In the video, it can be observed that Maradona uses his hand to score the goal and the referee makes the wrong decision.

 

Maradona did not show any remorse and called it the "Hand of God" to rub salt into the wounds of the English.

 

Everton vs. Bolton in 1997

 

Everton and Bolton were both in grave danger of being relegated and this match between the two turned out to be a bitter memory for Bolton.

Bolton's Gerry Taggart thought that he had scored and so it seemed, with the ball crossing the line. The referee said otherwise and the game ended in a draw. At the end of the season, Everton avoided relegation at Bolton's expense by just one point, making that wrong decision even more impactful.

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Exactly this.

 

Have offside decided by feet position only, and give the Video Assistant Ref (it's not a machine!) 30 seconds to make a judgement. Occasionally he'll make a mistake (by millimetres), but so what? Better then a plethora of on-field ref's centimetre or metre mistakes in the past. I don't understand why people whine about minuscule mistakes and think we should go back to the old huge ones.

 

VAR has a better view than the on field ref. No-one (apart from Whitey Grandad) can argue about that. The only legitimate complaint is if it takes too long (like the farce in the Women's WC). Thankfully the PL hasn't made that mistake. As I said, give VAR 30 seconds max to rule on offside or overturn any other decision, otherwise it stands.

 

Simples.

 

Yes, I will continue to argue about that. And unless you have been out in the middle during a game you skill never understand this.

 

Have you?

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