Russell Martin

[Fabrice29]

27 minutes ago, Dman said:

Wouldn't be arsed if Martin went on Monday morning, plently of decent options out there and I woul dhave no trust in him keeping us up (or taking us up without flynn Downes for that matter). 

If we fail to go up and want to continue with the tippy tappy, spreadsheet, achieved nothing mantra, Rosenior is avalible - the best side I've seen at St Mary's this season, not sure how they didn't make the play-offs.  

Incredible sentence  

[gio1saints]

Football management thinking must always evolve. What worked last match will be studied and counter-tactics created by other Managers.

Variations of the PB game are rife in the world leagues including of course Saints. 

It took most teams until about the end of our unbeaten run to finally have enough data to work out exactly how to counter Saints and RM’s record breaking style of play. And counter it they did making RM and his team look like they were stuck in time doing the same things that only a month or two earlier were heralded as amazing & record breaking. 
 

Fast forward to the playoffs and of interest is the playoffs have seen a seismic shift in Martins approach.
 

Previously Saints had a highly predictable PB bible and play style (boring and mindless for some) that ultimately got “ found out”. 

For the Last match v Leeds and the play offs to date though it’s different. 
 

RM has prepared our teams very specifically the last three and his tactics and approaches have shown he IS able to ( winningly) adapt and adjust the PB style. His players also.
 

That must be clear to even the most avid Martin haters on here. 

Each match of Leeds away, WBA away and at home have been coaching master classes. Those who feel he is not up to coaching better than this season with these players if we go up may be right - but I’d be one to say he deserves the chance to show he can adapt to EPL if we do go up - and would 100% want him to stay and win the Championship for us next season if we don’t. 

 

Edited May 23 by gio1saints
Make it make more sense

[notnowcato]

13 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Football management thinking must always evolve. What worked last match will be studied and counter-tactics created by other Managers.

Variations of the PB game are rife in the world leagues including of course Saints. 

It took most teams until about the end of our unbeaten run to finally have enough data to work out exactly how to counter Saints and RM’s record breaking style of play. And counter it they did making RM and his team look like they were stuck in time doing the same things that only a month or two earlier were heralded as amazing & record breaking. 
 

Fast forward to the playoffs and of interest is the playoffs have seen a seismic shift in Martins approach.
 

Previously Saints had a highly predictable PB bible and play style (boring and mindless for some) that ultimately got “ found out”. 

For the Last match v Leeds and the play offs to date though it’s different. 
 

RM has prepared our teams very specifically the last three and his tactics and approaches have shown he IS able to ( winningly) adapt and adjust the PB style. His players also.
 

That must be clear to even the most avid Martin haters on here. 

Each match of Leeds away, WBA away and at home have been coaching master classes. Those who feel he is not up to coaching better than this season with these players if we go up may be right - but I’d be one to say he deserves the chance to show he can adapt to EPL if we do go up - and would 100% want him to stay and win the Championship for us next season if we don’t. 

 

To add to this, the 2 games a week we’ve had since before Christmas would’ve made making any significant changes to formation etc very difficult to achieve in one day on the grass. When given the time to prepare the team Russell and the rest of the coaching staff  have done a superb job…. just need to do it one more time. 

[gio1saints]

13 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

To add to this, the 2 games a week we’ve had since before Christmas would’ve made making any significant changes to formation etc very difficult to achieve in one day on the grass. When given the time to prepare the team Russell and the rest of the coaching staff  have done a superb job…. just need to do it one more time. 

Same for every other team tbf in our league but your point is well made. Given a little bit more than one day to prepare his team for the next match Russell and players have shown what appeared to be questionable ability to winningly adapt and adjust the PB style - against strong opponents - and under max pressure too. 

Edited May 23 by gio1saints

[gio1saints]

Oh- and btw, you cannot adapt and evolve what you do not have. 
 

Martin and his team created ( or more accurately adopted) the PB style in pre season and it had to be learned from lesson one page one. By everyone. Was not just a little change in how we play. It was throw away all we did last year and start afresh. Not enough credit given for the coaching achievement , in that context, imo. 

Edited May 23 by gio1saints

[Whitey Grandad]

We shall see.

[Saint86]

The reality is that about 95% of this forum voted to sack him in one poll this season. Its as laughable now as it was back then!

Hopefully, win or lose on the weekend, the playoffs and developing bond between the fans/players/manager etc. will carry us into next year with some momentum. 

Edited May 23 by Saint86

[Doctoroncall]

18 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

The reality is that about 95% of this forum voted to sack him in one poll this season. Its as laughable now as it was back then!

Hopefully, win or lose on the weekend, the playoffs and developing bond between the fans/players/manager etc. will carry us into next year with some momentum. 

Another poll 60% backed him. 

[Dman]

2 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Rosenior would be a bit of a mentalist/daft move if that scenario plays out. He's exactly the same as Martin, no different - same young, inexperienced coach mantra. Same possession at all costs mantra, same passing it for passing sake mantra (Hull fans had the same moans). Could just call him Martin-lite.

And to be honest with the players Rosenior had available, he flopped last year. They were miles better in terms of squad than Norwich or WBA, they shouldn't have missed out with the players they had - seems like their owner felt the same. If we dumped Martin I'd want an upgrade, not someone who does the same - but worse.

I don't dissagree, by the way. He wouldn't be my choice, I'd rather someone a bit more pragmatic than a 'system manager'. 

The point I was making, is that if we are embedded to Martin's style (which given that JW has now gone I'm not sure we will be), hes avalible and would be a nice fit. 

Personally, I'd be throwing the kitchen sink at Cooper. 

[Badger]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

Wouldn't be arsed if Martin went on Monday morning, plently of decent options out there and I woul dhave no trust in him keeping us up (or taking us up without flynn Downes for that matter). 

If we fail to go up and want to continue with the tippy tappy, spreadsheet, achieved nothing mantra, Rosenior is avalible - the best side I've seen at St Mary's this season, not sure how they didn't make the play-offs.  

Might as well stick with RM. 

[Dman]

22 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

The reality is that about 95% of this forum voted to sack him in one poll this season. Its as laughable now as it was back then!

Hopefully, win or lose on the weekend, the playoffs and developing bond between the fans/players/manager etc. will carry us into next year with some momentum. 

I haven't changed my mind. Win or Lose sunday and I'd pull the trigger if I was given the opportunity. 

I don't see Martin as the man to take us forward, whatever division we're in. 

[Badger]

6 hours ago, Dman said:

I haven't changed my mind. Win or Lose sunday and I'd pull the trigger if I was given the opportunity. 

I don't see Martin as the man to take us forward, whatever division we're in. 

Can understand your view , but I am then troubled by the next leap of faith, having confidence in the decision makers to get it right in selecting the next one.

Edited May 23 by Badger

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Dman said:

we fail to go up and want to continue with the tippy tappy, spreadsheet, achieved nothing mantra, Rosenior is avalible - the best side I've seen at St Mary's this season, not sure how they didn't make the play-offs.  

He’s as bad as Lego head. We had a bloke in work moaning about him a few weeks back. Said they had a corner & 3 passes later it was back with their own keeper. He said “can you believe it”, I said “I fucking can”. It’ll be Russball without the nice hair & beard. 

[Ted Bates Statue]

3 hours ago, Saint86 said:

The reality is that about 95% of this forum voted to sack him in one poll this season. Its as laughable now as it was back then!

I wouldn't consider myself to be a fan of Russell Martin's methods, but don't mistake a noisy minority for the majority. The phrase "lunatic fringe" springs to mind.

[Dark Munster]

6 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Rosenior would be a bit of a mentalist/daft move if that scenario plays out. He's exactly the same as Martin, no different - same young, inexperienced coach mantra. Same possession at all costs mantra, same passing it for passing sake mantra (Hull fans had the same moans). Could just call him Martin-lite.

And to be honest with the players Rosenior had available, he flopped last year. They were miles better in terms of squad than Norwich or WBA, they shouldn't have missed out with the players they had - seems like their owner felt the same. If we dumped Martin I'd want an upgrade, not someone who does the same - but worse.

Sounds like Rosenior is exactly what Ankersen and SR are looking for. 

[Saint Matty 76]

Some nice words in here. Let's hope we do it.

[sfc4prem]

16 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

Some nice words in here. Let's hope we do it.

The bloke deserves it, he really does.

[miserableoldgit]

9 hours ago, Dman said:

Wouldn't be arsed if Martin went on Monday morning, plently of decent options out there and I woul dhave no trust in him keeping us up (or taking us up without flynn Downes for that matter). 

If we fail to go up and want to continue with the tippy tappy, spreadsheet, achieved nothing mantra, Rosenior is avalible - the best side I've seen at St Mary's this season, not sure how they didn't make the play-offs.  

Yes.....makes sense....get rid of a Manager who got us to a Playoff Final and replace him with someone who didn't make the playoffs. You're not sure how they didn't get into the playoffs? Anything to do with their manager?

[Weston Super Saint]

18 minutes ago, miserableoldgit said:

Yes.....makes sense....get rid of a Manager who got us to a Playoff Final and replace him with someone who didn't make the playoffs. You're not sure how they didn't get into the playoffs? Anything to do with their manager?

Good heavens no - at least not if that manager was Nathan fucking Jones, he only took care of the good things, the shit ones were everyone else's fault!

[SaintsFan86]

29 minutes ago, miserableoldgit said:

Yes.....makes sense....get rid of a Manager who got us to a Playoff Final and replace him with someone who didn't make the playoffs. You're not sure how they didn't get into the playoffs? Anything to do with their manager?

He also plays a very similar style to Russ but don't let that get in the way of stopping people's agenda and narrative either eh.

[Wade Garrett]

I’m impressed by the flexibility and pragmatism Martin has shown in the last 3 games.

He no longer looks wedded to one way of playing.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

I’m impressed by the flexibility and pragmatism Martin has shown in the last 3 games.

He no longer looks wedded to one way of playing.

I think there's a lot to be said for that. Earlier in the season he really did get stuck doing things in a particular way but it does seem like he's learnt a fair bit. Hopefully if we don't go up we can keep him because I think he will get us up next year with what he's learnt. 

[Dellyears]

59 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think there's a lot to be said for that. Earlier in the season he really did get stuck doing things in a particular way but it does seem like he's learnt a fair bit. Hopefully if we don't go up we can keep him because I think he will get us up next year with what he's learnt. 

Depends how much of the squad will remain and how many he has to start all over again.

[Dusic]

3 minutes ago, Dellyears said:

Depends how much of the squad will remain and how many he has to start all over again.

Yes but also the teams going up are better than the teams coming down.

We would still be a 'big fish' at this level next season and even if we lose some we would sign some and due to the way we play we should still be in line with getting some good loans from the PL.

Added to that have two or three young players of real quality who would get more games.

I would be very suprised if we didnt start the season with one of the strongest teams/squads.

 

[CB Fry]

29 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Yes but also the teams going up are better than the teams coming down.

We would still be a 'big fish' at this level next season and even if we lose some we would sign some and due to the way we play we should still be in line with getting some good loans from the PL.

Added to that have two or three young players of real quality who would get more games.

I would be very suprised if we didnt start the season with one of the strongest teams/squads.

 

If we don't go up I guarantee that FourFourTwo will have us winning the league in their season preview.

[S-Clarke]

29 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Yes but also the teams going up are better than the teams coming down.

We would still be a 'big fish' at this level next season and even if we lose some we would sign some and due to the way we play we should still be in line with getting some good loans from the PL.

Added to that have two or three young players of real quality who would get more games.

I would be very suprised if we didnt start the season with one of the strongest teams/squads.

 

Totally agree, we will be competitive next year should we end up here again. There will be a lot of change but we will be able to build a competitive team from that, of that I have no doubt. I'd be disappointed if we weren't.

I have seen some posters mention that we'll be on our barebones, skint with no money - but I don't see it. We've got one more shot at a really, really good stab at auto promotion in my eyes (if we need it!!)

[Badger]

Some ridiculous ‘links’ or suggestions of managers going to clubs with great aspirations and expectations, well above their level or experience ( McKenna or Enzo to Chelsea, Kompany to Bayern).

Just seen Xavi sacked at Barcelona. A stretch too far to expect Martin to be linked despite his PB football. 

‘El Lego’ certainly has a ring to it though. 

[CSA96]

 

Edited May 24 by CSA96

[Saint Matty 76]

Fine by me if I'm being honest.

We've done about as well as I'd have expected this year. I think it's easy to underplay the difficulty of the squad turnover (whilst the season had started) and also having to switch the mentality of a squad of losers into becoming the front-footed, take the game to the opposition side that we've tried (not always succeeded) to become.

If we go up, it'll be terrifying, no doubt. I'll quite comfortably say that I personally don't think he'd last a season in the Prem but he'd deserve the opportunity, and you never know.

If we stay down, we'll get a bit worse but the league will also get significantly worse having lost the only three teams better than us. Of course you have the three coming back down but I think we'd all agree that's quite a downgrade, apart from perhaps Burnley who've just lost their manager as well. I still think we'd be the 1st/2nd most desirable landing spot for loanees, and as we've seen that is arguably the most important factor in getting promotion.

Long story short - be scared about RM in the Prem but that's a future problem should we make it. Give him one more shot if we stay down rather than tearing everything up and having to go through transitional problems yet again.

[saintstowin]

I'm glad he's continuing next season whatever the league. Assuming he's not nabbed by a team taking a gamble on him. 

It's been a brilliant season, best in years. For large parts it's been steady and he's done well. Success not all down to RM, and he's made mistakes, some infuriating. But just when it was most needed he's come through with really good management. I think he's shown he can learn and adapt. 

The team will change next season whatever the result but much will be the same, and consistency in having RM will help. 

[Patrick Bateman]

All this guff about managers like Kompany not changing their style, making them desirable, blah blah blah. It's just that, hot air. If you don't adapt in your job and modernise constantly, or react to events and make changes, you deserve to get the boot.

The fact that Martin and team over the last month have shown a tactical variation or two gives me hope. Some might be to do with McCarthy in goal, but he's a considerably, better, calmer goalie and a better shot stopper.

 

[Kermitzasaint]

Win or lose, RM won't achieve anything. The longer he stays, the longer we will slowly drop down the league as money dries up. 

Whilst there is the occasional nice move, the inevitable RM style has us conceding at will. My hope is there is someone else dumb enough to poach him from us. 

RM is smart enough to know his time at any club is limited due to his style. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Kermitzasaint said:

Win or lose, RM won't achieve anything. The longer he stays, the longer we will slowly drop down the league as money dries up. 

 

So not win or lose at all then, just lose in this scenario.

Thanks, Positive Pete.

[Kermitzasaint]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So not win or lose at all then, just lose in this scenario.

Thanks, Positive Pete.

If we go up RM will we take us straight down again. If we stay down our squad will be weakened and will have to start all over again with an even poorer midfield and defence. 

Where is the upside to Russell Martin again? 

[Dusic]

Brighton situation definitely one to watch. Seems they thought they would get McKenna and may have been caught out by the supposed Chelsea and Utd interest.

Interesting that apart from McKenna they havent really been strongly linked with any other managers...might that be because one of their other targets has a huge game this weekend and they are waiting for that to be over before making a move?

Hopefully McKenna picks the sensible option and picks Brighton.

Will also be interesting to see who Leicester would go for if Chelsea take Maresca - seems a lot of clubs looking for possession based managers.

@Kermitzasaint - you realise that shoukd we win tomorrow whoever we have as manager its going to be extremely difficult to stay up? Look at Forest's points tally this season and they have the likes of MGW, CHO etc.

Our best chance IMO would be to go up playing a way the players know, with our best loans wanting to stay and play under RM and then really its down to SR and recruitment, especially in attacking areas - only chance we would have to stay up would be if we made good signings. I think thats actually more important than who the manager is.

Edited May 25 by Dusic

[Weston Super Saint]

22 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

If we go up RM will we take us straight down again. If we stay down our squad will be weakened and will have to start all over again with an even poorer midfield and defence. 

Where is the upside to Russell Martin again? 

When we come down we have shit loads more money again?

[chiknsmack]

7 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

All this guff about managers like Kompany not changing their style, making them desirable, blah blah blah. It's just that, hot air. If you don't adapt in your job and modernise constantly, or react to events and make changes, you deserve to get the boot.

The thing is if you're inflexible like Kompany you get the boot from Burnley and your fall from grace takes you all the way down to... Bayern Munich. Doesn't seem so much like guff in that case.

[Disco Stu]

13 minutes ago, chiknsmack said:

The thing is if you're inflexible like Kompany you get the boot from Burnley and your fall from grace takes you all the way down to... Bayern Munich. Doesn't seem so much like guff in that case.

It's an odd one. Dyche won the league with Burnley with over 100 points just like Kompany did. The difference being, he showed pragmatism as a manager and kept them in the Premier League for 4 years. Not once in that time was Dyche considered hot property.

[gio1saints]

One of the BIG factors in RM getting something of a reputation as being inflexible with his version of the PB style was that unbeaten run. 

Imagine you’ve broken the club record for unbeaten matches playing a certain way. Plaudits all over the place and massive recognition nationally and internationally. 
 

Then you lose a game or two. 
Was it your unbeatable system - or was it bad luck was it a bad day at the office the pitch the weather bad preparation or the suspensions and injuries? 
 

I reckon in that scenario he probably believed so much in his system that his ( unconscious) outcome bias forced him to think it must be something else - not the system of play. 
 

Unfortunately for Saints it took too long for him to work out that Saints and most of all himself needed to change adapt & adjust approach - and that it was not primarily anything but that. 
 

That period between just before it not working as it had done and what seems to be Russell’s revelation moment prior to Leeds away was why we did not get automatic. 
 

Frankly, it’s an eminently forgivable human error mistake. Most of us would have done the same - carried on with a tried and trusted record breaking system. 
 

What we’ve seem the last three matches is RM engaging his coaching head once more, not getting carried away with the hype, and seeing what needs to be done to win a football match. It’s worked the last three and whatever the outcome Sunday I think it shows RM is capable of learning new skills adapting and upgrading himself - and how he prepares his teams. It’s a good sign if he is our manager in whichever league we are in next season. I sincerely hope he is with us either way. 

Edited May 25 by gio1saints

[Kermitzasaint]

51 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Brighton situation definitely one to watch. Seems they thought they would get McKenna and may have been caught out by the supposed Chelsea and Utd interest.

Interesting that apart from McKenna they havent really been strongly linked with any other managers...might that be because one of their other targets has a huge game this weekend and they are waiting for that to be over before making a move?

Hopefully McKenna picks the sensible option and picks Brighton.

Will also be interesting to see who Leicester would go for if Chelsea take Maresca - seems a lot of clubs looking for possession based managers.

@Kermitzasaint - you realise that shoukd we win tomorrow whoever we have as manager its going to be extremely difficult to stay up? Look at Forest's points tally this season and they have the likes of MGW, CHO etc.

Our best chance IMO would be to go up playing a way the players know, with our best loans wanting to stay and play under RM and then really its down to SR and recruitment, especially in attacking areas - only chance we would have to stay up would be if we made good signings. I think thats actually more important than who the manager is.

How will recruitment help when it's Russell Martins style that causes us to concede at will. He demands suicidal back passing, he demands our wide players give the opposition room to cross in the box. Remember, we concede at will with mostly EPL players in a pitiful league. Why on earth do you think he will suddenly change? Your argument that much better players may negate RM's ridiculous style is even more reason to get rid. 

[Charlie Wayman]

6 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How will recruitment help when it's Russell Martins style that causes us to concede at will. He demands suicidal back passing, he demands our wide players give the opposition room to cross in the box. Remember, we concede at will with mostly EPL players in a pitiful league. Why on earth do you think he will suddenly change? Your argument that much better players may negate RM's ridiculous style is even more reason to get rid. 

Lets see how he gets on without KWP, THB and FD to bale him out of trouble. Gone by Christmas is my bet. 

Edited May 25 by Charlie Wayman

[Fabrice29]

13 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How will recruitment help when it's Russell Martins style that causes us to concede at will. He demands suicidal back passing, he demands our wide players give the opposition room to cross in the box. Remember, we concede at will with mostly EPL players in a pitiful league. Why on earth do you think he will suddenly change? Your argument that much better players may negate RM's ridiculous style is even more reason to get rid. 

Does that explain why we conceded at will for years before he came too? 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

Does that explain why we conceded at will for years before he came too? 

Let’s just say that defensively we haven’t improved.

[West end Saints]

3 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How will recruitment help when it's Russell Martins style that causes us to concede at will. He demands suicidal back passing, he demands our wide players give the opposition room to cross in the box. Remember, we concede at will with mostly EPL players in a pitiful league. Why on earth do you think he will suddenly change? Your argument that much better players may negate RM's ridiculous style is even more reason to get rid. 

I know I shouldn't bother but...

Concede with EPL players?

Defence and defensive midfield- 

KWP is a good EPL player.

Bree / Manning are not EPL players.

THB - never played EPL

Downes - played more in league 1 than EPL

Smallbone - hardly played EPL

Charles - played once EPL

So leaves Stevens, Bednarek and Bazunu - are these the top EPL players that you rated so highly!

 

Martin has had a good season.

You would have snapped someones handoff if he offered you a play off final on last day of last season.

Hopefully about to get better...

 

Edited May 25 by West end Saints

[manji]

6 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

Win or lose, RM won't achieve anything. The longer he stays, the longer we will slowly drop down the league as money dries up. 

Whilst there is the occasional nice move, the inevitable RM style has us conceding at will. My hope is there is someone else dumb enough to poach him from us. 

RM is smart enough to know his time at any club is limited due to his style. 

Kermit by name Kermit by nature 🙄 I think it’s brilliant Henrik Kraft making that statement. He has shafted the doubters before this ridiculously important game . 

[manji]

3 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How will recruitment help when it's Russell Martins style that causes us to concede at will. He demands suicidal back passing, he demands our wide players give the opposition room to cross in the box. Remember, we concede at will with mostly EPL players in a pitiful league. Why on earth do you think he will suddenly change? Your argument that much better players may negate RM's ridiculous style is even more reason to get rid. 

Please stop. There’s a big game tomorrow I don’t know why I bother but it’s patently obvious to me SR have robust plans in place for promotion or staying in the Championship . Just fvcking enjoy the ride.

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

It's an odd one. Dyche won the league with Burnley with over 100 points just like Kompany did. The difference being, he showed pragmatism as a manager and kept them in the Premier League for 4 years. Not once in that time was Dyche considered hot property.

That’s exactly the point. Yet people are still claiming it’s “guff”. 

[Dusic]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s exactly the point. Yet people are still claiming it’s “guff”. 

Big clubs especially are looking for a manager that can evidence coaching a specific style of play which is inline with how they want to operate.

Kompany has obviously done that at Burnley. 

When they were in a league where they had a squad up there with the best then it worked extremely well.

When they were at a level where their squad was poor it didn't.

Bayern will always be the first scenario so they will be viewing him in that context, just like Saints expected RM to finish higher than 10th and despite finishing 2nd in the Bundesliga we obviously didnt expect Ralph to do the same here.

Sean Dyche could have gone to a CL club and tried to do the same that has been semi successful elsewhere but I don't think those clubs want to play in that way and probably aren't looking for the same abilities that he showed at Burnley or Everton.

Edited May 25 by Dusic

[Dark Munster]

3 hours ago, manji said:

Please stop. There’s a big game tomorrow I don’t know why I bother but it’s patently obvious to me SR have robust plans in place for promotion or staying in the Championship . Just fvcking enjoy the ride.

The same SR whose recruitment (players and managers) has been mostly disastrous, squandered £100 million, and got us relegated rooted at the bottom of the table last season?

[FarehamSaintJames]

Win or not, I hope we stick with Russell Martin for next season.

You don’t finish fourth or score the most goals in the league by playing boring/crap football.

Subs questionable at times, but also player error on occasion. That isn’t on the manager.

Hope we stick with him.