To Martin or not to Martin? That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler on the pitch to have 80% possession and suffer the slings and arrows of last minute goals...

[musesaint]

I voted no but it’s not an easy decision.

I just feel that with the squad we’ve got we should be doing even better than we are and in a solid top 2 position. I also feel that Martin sometimes illogically persists with particular tactics and players to make a point that he’s in charge. The sign of a good manager is to recognise when you need changes and not be too stubborn to accept your mistakes. After a bad result he often says that he accepts full responsibility but then makes the same mistakes again. 

[Badger]

Not overwhelmed by the appointment last summer, but as others have said this is a question for the end of the season.

Big fear is getting rid leaves SR with the opportunity for another fuck up. If we’re going to go for Rosenior for example (another ‘possession’ manager ) or Carrick (no real achievement and living off his name as a player) then doesn’t seem any real upgrade on RM. 

[Toussaint]

11 hours ago, notnowcato said:

You said it yourself…. Loads of new things had to happen because the club was absolutely fucked. Broken. New things take a while to work, time to bed in, time to change the direction of the previous 18 months. 

So he inherited a fresh start and a clean slate, in a much less competitive league, not a “shit-show”?  

[Osvaldorama]

I think he’s slightly underperforming and keeps making some barmy decisions. His in-game decisions are often slow and I truly believe he has cost us some points late in games with bad decisions.

I also worry about the midfields he selects. He doesn’t value the defensive players enough. 
(who really thought a midfield of Rothwell/Stu/Smallbone was solid enough except him?)

On the other hand, I think he is hamstrung in both boxes. I don’t rate bazunu at all, and the club fucked the striker position up. 

So thinking carefully about it, he is young, and he has done a lot of good work already. I would be happy to keep him on even if we dont go up. 

I think he deserves more time and support. I don’t get some of the dislike towards him as I think he seems like a great bloke. 
 

Also, I agree with the posts above. I don’t trust SR to choose a better option. 

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, musesaint said:

I voted no but it’s not an easy decision.

I just feel that with the squad we’ve got we should be doing even better than we are and in a solid top 2 position. I also feel that Martin sometimes illogically persists with particular tactics and players to make a point that he’s in charge. The sign of a good manager is to recognise when you need changes and not be too stubborn to accept your mistakes. After a bad result he often says that he accepts full responsibility but then makes the same mistakes again. 

But we have a squad, and first team, with a shit spine of Bazunu, Bednarek, Smallbone and Adams. I agree overall the squad is decent(ish), but it's nowhere near the Adkins squad of 2011, and he only finished 2nd...

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Toussaint said:

So he inherited a fresh start and a clean slate, in a much less competitive league, not a “shit-show”?  

You say a fresh start and a clean slate (not sure what the difference is) like it was some etch-a-sketch toy that had the previous drawing wiped off.  If only life was that simple.

Edited April 11 by notnowcato

[Long Shot]

I don’t think SR have made one good appointment yet on or off the pitch

[Lee On Solent Saint]

I voted no. I don't want to see Stephens playing ever again in the Premier League. 

[Farmer Saint]

28 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I voted no. I don't want to see Stephens playing ever again in the Premier League. 

We're not in the Premier League so don't think that's an issue at the moment. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

30 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

We're not in the Premier League so don't think that's an issue at the moment. 

I wondered what user name MLG was using now. 

[Charlie Wayman]

There are many reasons for voting 'yes' or 'no' not on your list of options.

I am no fan of the man but the problem with discussing his future is "who comes next?"  That is a huge uncertainty especially for a small-ish club with limited expectations. The pool of talented managers who would be prepared to come here is very small; we are not going to attract nor indeed afford a new Poch or Koeman, Those days are well and truly behind us.

So my vote is 'Keep him' for now even though he is not doing a particularly good job. Give him one more season to see what he makes of the PL or of a revamped squad in the Championship. That will also afford ample time to search for a replacement and avoid knee-jerk appointments if one is needed.

A greater concern of mine is his apparent loyalty to his players and staff. Others may not concur but in my view we do not have an exceptionally talented squad for the division. The idea of the Saints being "the best team in the league" is an evident nonsense and Martin needs to disavow himself of this notion to make progress. He also needs to look closely at his coaching staff and effect changes where needed, e.g., our defensive weaknesses endlessly exposed by average and poor sides suggest strongly that our defensive coaches are crap. Loyalty must not blind the man to the obvious that some staff and some players are just not good enough. No reason why the old broom cannot sweep out the cobwebs.

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I voted no. I don't want to see Stephens playing ever again in the Premier League. 

That's a different question of course even though I agree with you.

[Barsiem]

3 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

I think he’s slightly underperforming and keeps making some barmy decisions. His in-game decisions are often slow and I truly believe he has cost us some points late in games with bad decisions. 

Tbf earlier in the season his in game decisions were spot on, and we often went on to win games after his subs.  It does seem to have gone off the boil though, or he's been found out.

[The Oggmonster]

If we don't get promoted this season, I'd like us to replace Martin with one of the following:

Steve Cooper

Mark Robins

Carlos Corberan

Danny Rohl

[Dusic]

51 minutes ago, The Oggmonster said:

If we don't get promoted this season, I'd like us to replace Martin with one of the following:

Steve Cooper

Mark Robins

Carlos Corberan

Danny Rohl

Why? Most play a totally different style the one that the whole club has moved to adopt and recruit for (have you seen how dull Corberan's WBA are?!) and Cooper aside none have been promoted out of the Champ either.

[Chez]

Feels a bit like the Southgate discussion. The general consensus there would probably be that he (Southgate) has got the players and England not winning a trophy shows he ain't truely up to it. However, I think that fails to credit the manager for (reversing a trend) creating an environment where good players do play to their potential which has enabled us to go far in tournaments. The same applies to Martin. He has the players, but without an environment, shape, way of playing/methodology, things can unravel - we saw that in the early stages of his team. 

With Southgate and Martin the question must be, is there another guy that could continue to foster a great environment BUT be a little better on the tactics/shape side of things? 

For many, RM's team shape and methodology has its negatives and will always restrict the true potential. I am not certain about that. I am thinking that if we had two or three different type of players in the squad, that provided more bite and workrate without the ball but without a loss of technical ability, some of our ills might be eradicated without a change in shape/tactics. 

I know some will disagree, but when he joined, I certainly was not convinced he could turn this ship around and make a better fist of it than cuntflaps and Burley did the last time we went down. I saw a squad filled with losers and a pretty big task ahead of him. Perhaps I didn't take into account just how poor the championship standard is though, so am a cautious about praising him to high, especially considering our spending and wage bill. I do worry that with a potential loss of talent this summer the results will mirror Swansea's (when they lost Downes) - which saw them in touching distance of relegation for a large part of the season. This style of football requires players with very high technical ability to work. Lose that and you will start to lose games. Unlike many though, I think we will win the play offs, so maybe we will never find out if that is true. 

[Whitey Grandad]

“And always keep a’hold of nurse

for fear of finding something worse”

[david in sweden]

Everyone should surely see that RM can only work with the players he was given - and those left after we sold; Prowsey, Tella, Livramento, Lavia and Salisu.

we took in half-a-dozen new faces, mostly on loan from clubs who didn't need them, and Charles who cost 15 mill, but rarely plays.  That left us left us with

two (strikers Che and Adam.A.) and two players in the 30 age range..(Jack and Stu A.).  Bazunu was / is the only credible goalkeeper despite those errors.

Will Smallbone was away on a season's loan, and KWP was the only class act left after the big "sell-out" and,  good as he was / is  Bree hardly got game time..

Now someone tell me that sounds like a good prospect for automatic promotion, with players who only came together well after that chaotic September. ? 

 

Both Leeds and Leicester retained the majority of their Prem. squads and were unlucky to get relegated , when (for various reasons) Forest and Everton 

looked to be the prime candidates for the drop last March / April .        Ipswich are on a roll - such as we were between 2009-2012 and look good.

 

We can't say that RM hasn't made a few errors  in selection /subs. but why are so many people already discounting our 24 game unbeaten run as  " a fluke, 

or just "-being lucky".?    We might / ought to have scored a few more goals, but " Russball " has given us an average 66 % possession with the opposition

running themselves into the ground trying to keep up /or win the ball themselves. 

Whether we go up this season or not , I think RM has made a good effort and deserves more than " the threat of the sack"  if we fail to get back up in May.

The worse case scenario is not RM staying, but the prospect of yet another new manager who will change the formation - yet again. 

 

[Hayling Saint]

2 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

Everyone should surely see that RM can only work with the players he was given - and those left after we sold; Prowsey, Tella, Livramento, Lavia and Salisu.

we took in half-a-dozen new faces, mostly on loan from clubs who didn't need them, and Charles who cost 15 mill, but rarely plays.  That left us left us with

two (strikers Che and Adam.A.) and two players in the 30 age range..(Jack and Stu A.).  Bazunu was / is the only credible goalkeeper despite those errors.

Will Smallbone was away on a season's loan, and KWP was the only class act left after the big "sell-out" and,  good as he was / is  Bree hardly got game time..

Now someone tell me that sounds like a good prospect for automatic promotion, with players who only came together well after that chaotic September. ? 

 

Both Leeds and Leicester retained the majority of their Prem. squads and were unlucky to get relegated , when (for various reasons) Forest and Everton 

looked to be the prime candidates for the drop last March / April .        Ipswich are on a roll - such as we were between 2009-2012 and look good.

 

We can't say that RM hasn't made a few errors  in selection /subs. but why are so many people already discounting our 24 game unbeaten run as  " a fluke, 

or just "-being lucky".?    We might / ought to have scored a few more goals, but " Russball " has given us an average 66 % possession with the opposition

running themselves into the ground trying to keep up /or win the ball themselves. 

Whether we go up this season or not , I think RM has made a good effort and deserves more than " the threat of the sack"  if we fail to get back up in May.

The worse case scenario is not RM staying, but the prospect of yet another new manager who will change the formation - yet again. 

 

Totally agree.

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

 

 

Both Leeds and Leicester retained the majority of their Prem.

 

Really?

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/the-16-players-let-go-by-leeds-united-in-the-summer-how-theyve-fared-since/#:~:text=Leeds United saw a total,and experience in other clubs.

Edited April 11 by AlexLaw76

[Farmer Saint]

8 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

There are many reasons for voting 'yes' or 'no' not on your list of options.

I am no fan of the man but the problem with discussing his future is "who comes next?"  That is a huge uncertainty especially for a small-ish club with limited expectations. The pool of talented managers who would be prepared to come here is very small; we are not going to attract nor indeed afford a new Poch or Koeman, Those days are well and truly behind us.

So my vote is 'Keep him' for now even though he is not doing a particularly good job. Give him one more season to see what he makes of the PL or of a revamped squad in the Championship. That will also afford ample time to search for a replacement and avoid knee-jerk appointments if one is needed.

A greater concern of mine is his apparent loyalty to his players and staff. Others may not concur but in my view we do not have an exceptionally talented squad for the division. The idea of the Saints being "the best team in the league" is an evident nonsense and Martin needs to disavow himself of this notion to make progress. He also needs to look closely at his coaching staff and effect changes where needed, e.g., our defensive weaknesses endlessly exposed by average and poor sides suggest strongly that our defensive coaches are crap. Loyalty must not blind the man to the obvious that some staff and some players are just not good enough. No reason why the old broom cannot sweep out the cobwebs.

So you don't think he's doing a good job, but the team is also not very talented, and we are likely to end up with 90+ points. 

I genuinely don't believe that both of those statements can possibly be true. 

[Badger]

14 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

 

I don’t buy that we will be “mid table at best” next season if we don’t get promoted. We’d likely start as favourites or 2nd favourites, I’d think…depending on the finances and number of key players we lose.

Starting as favourites or 2nd favourites counts for fuck all though. 
For a club that seldom lives up to expectations (after they raise them) I won’t get hopes up on being favourites before a ball is kicked 

[AlexLaw76]

Luton will probably start as favourites next season, assuming they go down

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Just had a moment imagining us loaning Tall Paul out to Luton next season, and him scoring a hatful, while we struggle with AA allowed to play up front, because he asked...a lot, loudly (pashun and bravery) and Stewart cheers from a mobility scooter beside the bench. Brrrr...

[Osvaldorama]

I think the other big argument in favour of Martin is stability. 
 

We have had so much change already this season.
Wilcox has now gone. We will surely see many more players come & go in the summer.
 

We need stability somewhere at the club so we can build a platform. 

[Dusic]

Clearly he should stay:

- Likely to achive a pts tally that most other seasons would get auto promotion. We will be beaten by 2 teams who were better than us last year including one who have breached FFP and clearly have the strongest team for many years in the Championship. Ipswich have just had a freak season, fair play to them.

- Has successfully changed the style of play as requested by the club after SR and Wilcox rightly recognised that even on the odd occassion we did win games there was often no clear reasons why in the data, i.e we had no repeatable plan. Now we have a clearly recognisable approach which players enjoy

- Has overseen a club record run without defeat, which is some achievement

- Entertaining football where we try (and largely suceed) in dominating. Personally would prefer this kind of aspirational style versus a more attritional approach. That we have scored stacks of goals (despite late sale of Tella who got 20 last season) yet still bemoan finishing is telling.

- Utilised the whole squad very well and seemingly created a positive team spirit which has been sorely lacking in recent years. By all accounts many players wanted to leave in the summer and he has reinvigorated players like both Armstrongs, Bednarek, Aribo etc.

- In what is likely to be a summer of change (again) we need some stability. If we were to remove him after a season of 2pts/game then imagine how much pressure would be on his replacement...would be ridiculous!

I am amazed as many as a third must feel he has done a poor job, quite staggering.

Edited April 11 by Dusic

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, Osvaldorama said:

I think the other big argument in favour of Martin is stability. 
 

We have had so much change already this season.
Wilcox has now gone. We will surely see many more players come & go in the summer.
 

We need stability somewhere at the club so we can build a platform. 

We have Rasmus! 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Dusic said:

Clearly he should stay:

- Likely to achive a pts tally that most other seasons would get auto promotion. We will be beaten by 2 teams who were better than us last year including one who have breached FFP and clearly have the strongest team for many years in the Championship. Ipswich have just had a freak season, fair play to them.

- Has successfully changed the style of play as requested by the club, we have a clearly recognisable approach which players enjoy

- Has overseen a club record run without defeat, which is some achievement

- Entertaining football where we try (and largely suceed) in dominating. Personally would prefer this kind of aspirational style versus a more attritional approach. That we have scored stacks of goals (despite late sale of Tella who got 20 last season) yet still bemoan finishing is telling.

- Utilised the whole squad very well and seemingly created a positive team spirit which has been sorely lacking in recent years. By all accounts many players wanted to leave in the summer and he has reinvigorated players like both Armstrongs, Bednarek, Aribo etc.

- In what is likely to be a summer of change (again) we need some stability. If we were to remove him after a season of 2pts/game then imagine how much pressure would be on his replacement...would be ridiculous!

I am amazed as many as a third must feel he has done a poor job, quite staggering.

That’s a matter of opinion.

[Andrew Watson]

His not knowing his best side and playing Stephens and Manning and not changing Bazunu [ probably because we do not have another decent keeper ] has cost us automatic promotion. The best thing he has done in his time here,was refusing to meet our horrendous PM,who belongs to an equally hideous party.

[Dusic]

9 minutes ago, Andrew Watson said:

His not knowing his best side and playing Stephens and Manning and not changing Bazunu [ probably because we do not have another decent keeper ] has cost us automatic promotion. The best thing he has done in his time here,was refusing to meet our horrendous PM,who belongs to an equally hideous party.

Do you actually think that playing Stephens and Manning (who he has actually left out quite a few times) is the reason we won't finish in the top 2?

[FarehamSaintJames]

I voted to stick with him.

Any other season and we’re finishing top two comfortably.

It’s not his fault the top four has been relentless this season.

Every team will have up and down results across a season like we did with Nigel Adkins.

Russell Martin’s fault can be his stubbornness to stick with players who either don’t perform or don’t deserve it, or just an over-use of rotation to ensure “everyone gets a game”. That needs to stop.

A learning curve for him and the team is to learn to switch tactics at certain times. For the players we’ve got we should be so much more prolific up top. I do wish we’d play with an attacking mid rather than a holding mid, it would simply mean we get the ball further forward a lot quicker.

[SaintBobby]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

Starting as favourites or 2nd favourites counts for fuck all though. 
For a club that seldom lives up to expectations (after they raise them) I won’t get hopes up on being favourites before a ball is kicked 

Well, yeah, fine. If you think we always underperform, get rich and bet against Saints!

[Toussaint]

6 hours ago, Andrew Watson said:

His not knowing his best side and playing Stephens and Manning and not changing Bazunu [ probably because we do not have another decent keeper ] has cost us automatic promotion. The best thing he has done in his time here,was refusing to meet our horrendous PM,who belongs to an equally hideous party.

Regardless of one’s political beliefs, i would say that is the worst thing he has done and proves how utterly classless the man is. I’m sure even Starmer would shake Rishi’s hand on such an occasion.

[pimpin4rizeal]

In for me .. I think he’s the first manager in a while that actually recognises the best line ups, by that I mean his team sheets are probably most aligned with the fans.. we don’t end up with weird moi like picks from him.. even his arguably poorest favourites like  manning and smallbone he has started to see what the fans see so respect there ..

alsio think he’s a good man manager, keeps most of the squad involved and has brought players back from the dead like Arma and Aribo who a lot of fans had written off..

tactics wise he’s a bit too predictable and we could do with toughening up but there’s enough positives for me 

[Morse]

Seems a funny time to do a poll. If we get promoted then he should stay. If we fail to get promoted then he's not going to get us promoted next season with an inevitably weaker squad, so should be replaced. 

I voted no, as we have missed autos already and Leeds or Ipswich will beat us in the play-offs.  

[CB Fry]

22 minutes ago, Morse said:

Seems a funny time to do a poll. If we get promoted then he should stay.

Complete opposite for me.

I think the best thing we could do for our Premier league survival would be to sack Martin the day after our play off final victory.

If we don't go up he won't be sacked, they'll go with as much continuity as possible in the hope we can challenge in a slightly less challenging division next season. (Sacked by Bonfire Night).

Edited April 12 by CB Fry

[Miltonaggro]

On 10/04/2024 at 20:51, egg said:

Neither of those options suit me. I don't think he's doing a good enough job, but he can't go now. I'd vote "keep until the end of the season then take a view". 

Yes, that would likely be the majority view. 

[Dman]

48 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Complete opposite for me.

I think the best thing we could do for our Premier league survival would be to sack Martin the day after our play off final victory.

If we don't go up he won't be sacked, they'll go with as much continuity as possible in the hope we can challenge in a slightly less challenging division next season. (Sacked by Bonfire Night).

yeah I don't see Martin being here this time next year, regardless of what happens this season. 

We'd get royally embarrsed in the PL with his style and our goal keeper and I think if we fail to go up, we'll lose too much of our core to mount a serious promotion challenge next season and will linger around midtable - play-off's. 

Promotion and then Brighton swooping in (unlikley on both fronts) would be a win win

[tdmickey3]

Out at season end.

He has had a one of the best 3 squads available to him but unlike Leeds and Leicester who have managed theirs well and are in the automatic promotion race, he has failed  and now faces the unpredictability of the playoffs.

If we fail to win playoffs which is likely, he has little clue what to do when the game is crying out for a tactical shift, never responding to oppositions in game changes

We will be much less likely to be promoted next season, the squad will lose the quality players and will leak even more goals.

If we manage to win the playoffs he needs to go as his possession at all costs will get us mullered in the PL

Such an utter waste

[The Cat]

2 hours ago, Toussaint said:

Regardless of one’s political beliefs, i would say that is the worst thing he has done and proves how utterly classless the man is. I’m sure even Starmer would shake Rishi’s hand on such an occasion.

Theee was no refusal to meet. They were stood in the tunnel within yards of each other at one point. If Sunak wanted to meet Martin he very easily could have walked over and done so.

[Whitey Grandad]

There are two questions.

1. If we get promoted is he the right man for the Premier League?

2. If we don’t get promoted is he the right man to try again next season?

[david in sweden]

13 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Really?

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/the-16-players-let-go-by-leeds-united-in-the-summer-how-theyve-fared-since/#:~:text=Leeds United saw a total,and experience in other clubs.

Yes really . 10 of those on that list are " out on loans" which surely means they were " surplus to requirement ", and few of the others were regular first teamers.

No-one allows their best talents go out - even for a season.  Saints had a huge turnover and some of the replacements had no real League experience.   

Whilst we were overstaffed and had a big deficit looming. we had little choice but to sell and get loans players in.   Leeds kept many of their best names.  

Edited April 12 by david in sweden

[austsaint]

28 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

There are two questions.

1. If we get promoted is he the right man for the Premier League?

2. If we don’t get promoted is he the right man to try again next season?

No, and maybe.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

I think the best thing we could do for our Premier league survival would be to sack Martin the day after our play off final victory.

That would certianly be the "brave" thing to do....

[Toussaint]

34 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Theee was no refusal to meet. They were stood in the tunnel within yards of each other at one point. If Sunak wanted to meet Martin he very easily could have walked over and done so.

Fair enough if that is the case, but my response was largely to the point expressed by the poster that the purported action or inaction  by Russell was grounds for admiration.

[Charlie Wayman]

13 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

So you don't think he's doing a good job, but the team is also not very talented, and we are likely to end up with 90+ points. 

I genuinely don't believe that both of those statements can possibly be true. 

Not sure you have really understood what I said. 

[coalman]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

There are two questions.

1. If we get promoted is he the right man for the Premier League?

2. If we don’t get promoted is he the right man to try again next season?

It's possible for Martin to be shit and us get promoted and for him to be great and us not get promoted. Outcome bias leads to poor decision making. We should be able to say whether Martin is the right manager without needing to know whether we've been promoted in the same way we could tell Jones wasn't a good manager for Saints before we were relegated. The question remains "Is Martin right for Saints?" and probably in Martin's mind "Are Saints right for me?"

[Farmer Saint]

5 hours ago, tdmickey3 said:

Out at season end.

He has had a one of the best 3 squads available to him but unlike Leeds and Leicester who have managed theirs well and are in the automatic promotion race, he has failed  and now faces the unpredictability of the playoffs.

If we fail to win playoffs which is likely, he has little clue what to do when the game is crying out for a tactical shift, never responding to oppositions in game changes

We will be much less likely to be promoted next season, the squad will lose the quality players and will leak even more goals.

If we manage to win the playoffs he needs to go as his possession at all costs will get us mullered in the PL

Such an utter waste

So the difference between doing well (Leicester and Leeds) and doing badly (us) is likely to be between 3 and 5 points? Or between 2.1% and 3.6% of the total points available? You're a harsh taskmaster! 

[Farmer Saint]

4 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Not sure you have really understood what I said. 

OK, be good if you can explain, cos the way I read it you said he hasn't done very well, but also that we do not have a particularly good squad. Not sure how I can really interpret that other than the way I did. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

In for me .. I think he’s the first manager in a while that actually recognises the best line ups, by that I mean his team sheets are probably most aligned with the fans..

Are you taking the piss?