Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Saint_clark]

3 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

And surely our players knew what was going on. Or did Tonda waltz in to training and say, I think XXX are going to do this? 

 

The players won't be sitting down analysing the footage of previous games so if the coaching team say "they set up like this, so we need to counter them by doing this" the players will just listen.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

If they have judged it 2 competitions, 4 points the league, then thrown out the other competition. It’s not double punishment. 

It is obvious and weird people cannot see the separation of the sanctions.

At best, we may get 2 of the 4 points back for next season, but even that is a stretch given we have admitted it. I suspect our appeal is not about the points but the removal from the final. We would a massive shift if we are somehow reinstated. 

[Dr Who?]

Yes we have done wrong and deserve punishment, but we have been thrown under the bus by the media and new media and continue to be so, and we are losing and feeling the full impact. 

The headline and the story do not match. It is just, well just if you read it! Everyone gunning for us. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c202gegv9qlo

[Dr Who?]

3 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

Removal from the play-off final was a worst case scenario. We got that worst case scenario. From now on I will always accept that a worst case scenario is entirely possible especially with this club. And no, this post is not about how many times I can enter the words "worst case scenario" into a post.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Worst case scenario. 😁

 

But seriously what is the next worst case scenario? Rebuild from scratch? Relegation? Financial Ruin? I will never underestimate the clubs ability to reach the worst case scenario ever again. 

Ok that's 7 of them, and I'm done. Worst Case Scenario

If this was the end of next season we would be fecked. We are still in a strong position. It is the fallout, who leaves on and off the pitch and how we are ready for next season. 

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Dr Who? said:

Yes we have done wrong and deserve punishment, but we have been thrown under the bus by the media and new media and continue to be so, and we are losing and feeling the full impact. 

The headline and the story do not match. It is just, well just if you read it! Everyone gunning for us. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c202gegv9qlo

We will have to build up a Teflon coating with regards to the media next season. I envisage many newspaper articles containing "Southampton, who were convicted of spying last season...." and commentators bringing it up in football commentaries - "This of course, is Southampton's first League game since they were expelled from the play-off final".

This is a historical skidmark that will follow us around for years. I plan on getting through it with detachment and humour. And booze. Lots and lots of booze.

[CanadaSaint]

My very limited understanding of English law is that deterrence alone does not justify a harsh penalty. However, such a penalty can be warranted if it restores a wronged party to a position they were denied by the defendant's actions. If that's the case, after winning over two legs without any sign that we benefitted significantly from the spying, booting us and moving Boro into our place could be legitimately challenged. Straw-clutching maybe, but the EFL penalty seems very, very loaded towards deterrence.

[Dr Who?]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

It is obvious and weird people cannot see the separation of the sanctions.

At best, we may get 2 of the 4 points back for next season, but even that is a stretch given we have admitted it. I suspect our appeal is not about the points but the removal from the final. We would a massive shift if we are somehow reinstated. 

It will all hinge on this ‘loophole’ we have suddenly allegedly found. Any loophole can bring any case down, but I’m not holding my breath. 

[so22saint]

4 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

Removal from the play-off final was a worst case scenario. We got that worst case scenario. From now on I will always accept that a worst case scenario is entirely possible especially with this club. And no, this post is not about how many times I can enter the words "worst case scenario" into a post.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Worst case scenario. 😁

 

But seriously what is the next worst case scenario? Rebuild from scratch? Relegation? Financial Ruin? I will never underestimate the clubs ability to reach the worst case scenario ever again. 

Ok that's 7 of them, and I'm done. Worst Case Scenario

A bit like watching my Dad wither away in his dementia home, this is the start of a long decline and it would be better if we were put out of our misery to be honest.  The Athletic is reporting our players are investigating suing the club for breach of contract, we will need a new manager and probably 11 new players.

As nice things almost never happen to us Saints fans I think it’a League One and administration again for us next year. I think I’m done

[sockeye]

4 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Yes we have done wrong and deserve punishment, but we have been thrown under the bus by the media and new media and continue to be so, and we are losing and feeling the full impact. 

The headline and the story do not match. It is just, well just if you read it! Everyone gunning for us. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c202gegv9qlo

We are the villains now probably will be for a while, got to get used to it

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

It would be interesting to know what their punishment would have been if we HAD been knocked out already.

Talking of hypotheticals, I've been pondering what our punishment would have been if we'd finished 2nd in the league, and these misdemeanors had still come to light during the playoffs. Doesn't matter, of course, but I guess that scenario could have been even messier for the EFL, which just further highlights how inept they were when establishing this new law in the first place. 

[Dr Who?]

1 minute ago, SNSUN said:

We will have to build up a Teflon coating with regards to the media next season. I envisage many newspaper articles containing "Southampton, who were convicted of spying last season...." and commentators bringing it up in football commentaries - "This of course, is Southampton's first League game since they were expelled from the play-off final".

This is a historical skidmark that will follow us around for years. I plan on getting through it with detachment and humour. And booze. Lots and lots of booze.

Like the 9-0’s they still wind me up. I tend not to watch Saints on the TV, never enjoyed it. Have to be at the games. There yeah we will take stick, but that’s all part of terrace life. 

[LegalEagle]

There is a chance and I put it no higher than that, that the appeal or a high court action could be successful here on a technicality. Looking at the EFL rules this morning they have not followed due process. I am hoping (kind of) that the club protested against the lack of 14 days to respond and our response and submissions were filed under protest reserving all rights. Knowing this club and hearing what Parsons allegedly confessed to, the club have very probably fucked this up as well.

in any event, who wants to go up because of a technicality. We cheated. End of. It was systemic (only 3 matches - my arse - Tonda thought it was ok so probably every club we played against where we could get acccess). We now have to take this on the chin. Every single person in the club who knew about this and willingly took part needs to be sacked. Players who want to leave should be sold asap and the rebuild starts on Monday.

My great fear is that we will dilly and dally and we start next season with poison still in the club. If you offered me lower mid table next year I’d snap your hand off.

 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, Bobsmith said:

hire a top lawyer

Obviously not excusing what we did, but we should have done this two weeks ago. Much like Gibson did. That's when we lost any chance of getting a proportional punishment. Sport Republic are amateurs at running a football club, Gibson is a veteran, and it shows. 

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Barry the Badger]

Everybody involved needs to go. Clean slate. Time for SR to sell up.

[Dr Who?]

11 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

The players won't be sitting down analysing the footage of previous games so if the coaching team say "they set up like this, so we need to counter them by doing this" the players will just listen.

Correct. I do not think Tonda would be coming in and saying where he and the coaching staff have got the intel, just that this is how they set up, this is how they defend corners, attack corners and how they will be approaching the game. Anyone who thinks that our huge transformation in form is just down to the skill of our manager is wrong, it is no coincidence and it would be more than 3 games that we did not win in. Oh Saints you fools! 

[sockeye]

Just now, Barry the Badger said:

Everybody involved needs to go. Clean slate. Time for SR to sell up.

Fuck up after fuck up, just throw the towel in Dragan you haven’t the marbles for this 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

If it isn't broke, consider breaking it.

If it is broke, Sports Republic will well and truly obliterate it.

[Dr Who?]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Obviously not excusing what we did, but we should have done this two weeks ago. Much like Gibson did. That's when we lost any chance of getting a proportional punishment. Sport Republic are amateurs at running a football club, Gibson is a veteran, and it shows. 

100% we have been shown how it is done by an annoying old timer! 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

It will all hinge on this ‘loophole’ we have suddenly allegedly found. Any loophole can bring any case down, but I’m not holding my breath. 

That's bollocks we haven't found any loophole. Give it up and accept things.

Edited 2 hours ago by hypochondriac

[do i not like fizzy pop]

As it's sunk in somewhat and having had a pretty miserable nights sleep I've come to the conclusion that as much as I can't stand him, Gibson has played an absolute blinder in all this. You've got to grudgingly doff your cap to him.

[Dr Who?]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

That's bollocks we haven't found any loophole. Give it up and accept things.

Did not say I believed it, but why appeal? What has or is going to change overnight. 🤷🏽 

[John B]

You must be a moron if you do not realise that the media is there to highlight wrong doing

 

What we did in cheating was a disgrace we deserve all we got

[Fabrice29]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

Obviously not excusing what we did, but we should have done this two weeks ago. Much like Gibson did. That's when we lost any chance of getting a proportional punishment. Sport Republic are amateurs at running a football club, Gibson is a veteran, and it shows. 

Are you under the impression we’re only just hiring a lawyer?

[Katalinic]

5 minutes ago, Barry the Badger said:

Everybody involved needs to go. Clean slate. Time for SR to sell up.

To who though? We are damaged goods.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Dr Who? said:

Did not say I believed it, but why appeal? What has or is going to change overnight. 🤷🏽 

Because Parsons needs to show he's done everything possible. Because we have to try everything however unlikely to try not to have the club destroyed.

[Dr Who?]

Just now, do i not like fizzy pop said:

As it's sunk in somewhat and having had a pretty miserable nights sleep I've come to the conclusion that as much as I can't stand him, Gibson has played an absolute blinder in all this. You've got to grudgingly doff your cap to him.

Yep old timer has been around the block with many cases. He knows how to play the game and our lot are very wet behind those ears that are attached to their empty heads! 

[Dr Who?]

Anyway let’s take my car in for an MOT… it’s going fail just like our appeal isn’t it! 🙄 

[SNSUN]

Just now, do i not like fizzy pop said:

As it's sunk in somewhat and having had a pretty miserable nights sleep I've come to the conclusion that as much as I can't stand him, Gibson has played an absolute blinder in all this. You've got to grudgingly doff your cap to him.

That's because he has tons of experience in the game and isn't one of our Johnny Come Lately's that think they can run a football club with a bit of financial backing and a grand idea of a multi-club model. They are no Red Bull.

Boro played this perfectly and all credit to them. I still hope Hull go up though. 😁

[Golactico]

Talk of our best players now being sold, but will they? Won't they just walk away from their breached contracts and become free agents and moving to Prem clubs with enhanced signing-on fees. It could be a great outcome for the likes of THB, Leo etc

[Fabrice29]

I appreciate SR are an absolute shit show but don’t really see the relevance on this specific situation. Can’t imagine any of them were aware of it and the only trusted ITK on here confirmed that a few days back. 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

Just now, Dr Who? said:

Anyway let’s take my car in for an MOT… it’s going fail just like our appeal isn’t it! 🙄 

If it does, just drive it in plain sight and hope you don't get caught?

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Dr Who? said:

Anyway let’s take my car in for an MOT… it’s going fail just like our appeal isn’t it! 🙄 

Just appeal the MOT afterwards.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Golactico said:

Talk of our best players now being sold, but will they? Won't they just walk away from their breached contracts and become free agents and moving to Prem clubs with enhanced signing-on fees. It could be a great outcome for the likes of THB, Leo etc

I doubt it. Leicester did not have their team walk for nothing, and they were serial 'cheaters' on an epic scale

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

I appreciate SR are an absolute shit show but don’t really see the relevance on this specific situation. Can’t imagine any of them were aware of it and the only trusted ITK on here confirmed that a few days back. 

It is their judgement. Not only are they shit owners, they hire shit people (time and time again)

[trousers]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

The correct impact of our removal should surely be Hull straight to the Premier League, but the EFL, with their key Middlesbrough board member, have gone back in time to alter the result of a two-legged tie that they allowed to be fairly played after the offence.

This is a key point... By allowing the semi-final matches to be played, the EFL were effectively declaring: "We don't think Southampton should be expelled". If they did think we should be expelled before the semi-finals then they shouldn't have let the games go ahead.

Fast forward to yesterday's verdict and they've flipped 180 degrees. i.e. if they still believe we shouldn't be expelled, as they did, by implication, 2 weeks ago, then why haven't they appealed against the independent panel's decision? That would surely be the logical thing for them to do?  (They're rhetorical questions because the answer is obvious....)

[Saint Billy]

We got everything we deserved tbh. All this talk about borough using the media etc etc, we would have done the exact same thing if the ball was on the other foot. 

No statement from the club just typifies that saints fans are their cash cow and nothing else. 

This is another cluster fuck overseen by SR with total disregard to its fan base.

 

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The way I am trying to rationalise it:

1. It feels unlikely it only happened three times this season.

2. If it happened more than that, it had a bigger influence on our season

3. If it had a bigger influence on our season then it did play a role in us getting into the playoffs.  

4. Would we have got into the playoffs if we didn't spy?

That way, being kicked out seems less bad in terms of processing the shock of how this has all come about.

Also, if the appeal is successful, who on earth leads the team out on Saturday and what are the players thinking? 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Even if we were reinstated today I’d have no intention of going to Wembley now.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Lallana's Left Peg said:

The way I am trying to rationalise it:

1. It feels unlikely it only happened three times this season.

2. If it happened more than that, it had a bigger influence on our season

3. If it had a bigger influence on our season then it did play a role in us getting into the playoffs.  

4. Would we have got into the playoffs if we didn't spy?

That way, being kicked out seems less bad in terms of processing the shock of how this has all come about.

Also, if the appeal is successful, who on earth leads the team out on Saturday and what are the players thinking? 

It is never getting reversed but if it did does anyone want to go to wembley? I know I don't.

[madge]

Every coach just have knew what was happening, sports director must have been complicit in this and not one person thought to check the rules. It’s morally wrong and not even to consult on the morality of this stinks.

Ive had to explain all this to my son. I said to him last night that after this if he chose to support someone else I couldn’t stop him, but he said he will always be a saints supporter but he’s upset by all this and knowing his favourite players will gone this summer,  it’s tough to take.

As soon as our appeal fails, dragon solak needs to come out and rip SR out of this club immediately, along with the entire coaching set up. Any that’s complicit must go. Fans must be compensated to. Season tickets?? Semi final tickets?? They can’t ignore this. My worry is that we become a bang average championship side for the next 5-10 years. Absolutely gutted. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

There is no way the punishment fits the crime and I believe the appeal will revisit that aspect, unless the new panel gets the same briefing from the Middlesborough-driven EFL board as the first one clearly had.

Another question... (Not rhetorical this time)...

Is this new panel formed of people from the same arbitration company (i.e. Sport Resolutions) or from a different company / organisation? If from the same company, the instinct of the  people on the new panel will be not to undermine the decision of their colleagues, won't it? Surely this new panel needs to formed from.a completely separate source for us to stand any chance of a significant overturn? (Whether or not we deserve anything at all from the appeal)

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[SaintsfanSwindon]

Woke up this morning hoping the news was just a bad dream. Just feel so angry with those that authorised the spying. All those amazing and special moments we had this season - Wrexham away, the atmosphere in the Northam and walk back into town against Arsenal, the Wembley semi final - just feels that is all now been soured. The punishment is just ridiculous though. Throw the book and ban all the people that were guilty (even if it was Tonda) but don’t do this - it only punishes the 2 innocent parties - the players and the supporters. 

[Zorba]

It’s all been pre-arranged. We get reinstated on appeal today before Boro sell any tickets. Gibbo gets a load of brass out of Dragan from some legal perspective. We win the play-offs on Saturday. Football equilibrium is restored. What’s there to worry about? UTS!

[LegalEagle]

1 minute ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Even if we were reinstated today I’d have no intention of going to Wembley now.

I know what you mean. It all feels a bit grubby. Imagine if we were reinstated and won it. Every bit of success for years to come would be portrayed as grubby and achieved as a result of cheating. I’ve very much come round to the clean slate mentality. To do that however everyone involved in the cheating must go. No one can be left. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, trousers said:

Another question... (Not rhetorical this time)...

Is this new panel formed of people from the same arbitration company (i.e. Sport Resolutions) or from a different company / organisation? If from the same company, the instinct of the  people on the new panel will be not to undermine the decision of their colleagues, won't it? Surely this new panel needs to formed from.a completely separate source for us to stand any chance of a significant overturn? (Whether or not we deserve anything at all from the appeal)

Also given how much our lawyers have failed, a full 14 days may have allowed us some time to bring in more effective representation.

[Katalinic]

Just now, madge said:

My worry is that we become a bang average championship side for the next 5-10 years. Absolutely gutted. 

That might be best case scenario

[Zorba]

10 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Anyway let’s take my car in for an MOT… it’s going fail just like our appeal isn’t it! 🙄 

Give it a polish and don’t walk straight in there and tell them it’s a heap of shit.

[obelisk]

So if the "spy" had been doing his scouting on Wednesday morning rather than Thursday all would be fine? It's a silly 72 hour rule that apparently nobody really adheres to but Saints still managed to get caught by a team with an owner with a grievance.

The penalty of expulsion from the final is extreme and disproportionate but I don't see why that automatically allows the semi-final losers to step up rather than for Hull to just get a bye. Well I do really - it's all about money isn't it?

[benjii]

1 hour ago, Osvaldorama said:

Yes, if I were millwall I would not let this go. They should sue the EFL immediately. 
 

Boro have been using media pressure and Lawfare to be in the final. 

Why on earth should they be there instead of Millwall? I keep coming back to this. It makes absolutely no sense. 
 

And Wrexham.

[Saint_clark]

14 minutes ago, Golactico said:

Talk of our best players now being sold, but will they? Won't they just walk away from their breached contracts and become free agents and moving to Prem clubs with enhanced signing-on fees. It could be a great outcome for the likes of THB, Leo etc

There's been no breach of contract.