#Spygate

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

Any steer on the direction of travel on this...and fuming at who?

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

that we did it, that we got caught or the way Boro are behaving?

[Micky]

Quite ironic that on Saturday the FA Cup final will take place with one of the teams still facing in excess of 100 charges, they are probably favourites to win the trophy, yet no mainstream media wants to call cheat on that.  Meanwhile the team that they beat in the semi final, accepted it gracefully, without complaint, and moved on. 

Funny old game. 

[sockeye]

4 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

This needs airing on here, to those that are playing it all down as many fans feel like this article and it wont change until those responsible have left the building after being sacked. Whilst, i dont believe the act merits expulsion based around the leeds fine, the whole situation now seeing our club around the world being described as 'cheats' is shameful.  

 

https://smry.ai/www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/spygate-southampton-middlesbrough-championshi-play-offs-zr72pp9hw

Jesus wept. Go and make some prawn sandwiches Kit

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

Am not surprised. What's your prediction for how this plays out. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

3 minutes ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

One of the biggest non-posts.

Congrats on stating the obvious 😂

Boro need to be called out for their recklessness with the media and borderline weaponising and whipping up a frenzy.

Then to have a further tantrum after being put out after 180 minutes of football? Not sure any analyst could’ve prepped us for that. 😂

[Turkish]

Sums it up 

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, coalman said:

The EFL's job right now is to somehow get the last promotion spot decided while having it blow up in their face legally as little as possible. If they let the final just go ahead without having some kind of hearing Boro would be up in arms and "Gibbo"'s army of lawyers and media stooges would be all over it. If they kick Saints out without due process then they have a similar problem.

Add to that the fact that they _really_ don't want to set a precedent where clubs seek to change competition outcomes in either the media or court with any realistic chance of success. I doubt that Boro get reinstated for that reason. If we get thrown out then I suspect Hull go straight up.

Though again, it has to be proportional and they'd have to be confident that the advantage we've gained by doing whatever dumbass things we did is reflected by whatever is decided. In Swindon's case they broke the rules and it was decided they gained significant advantage. I think that's harder to say in our case.

Absolutely. Playing an unregistered player is a far more serious offence than what appears to have been committed by us.

Many years ago a Sunday team  we used to play against did that and got a right hammering by the league administrators. 

[tisspahars]

Huge move on Boro in the Betfair market in the last hour - 10/1 into 4/1 having been steady all day up to then....

[markr27]

Points deduction and a sizable minimum compensation to be paid to Middlesbrough regardless of outcome of the final.

If Saints get promoted the compensation will be increased.

 

Maybe?!

[trousers]

40 minutes ago, Divergent said:

The independent panel don’t have the power to boot us out do they ? Surely they present their findings to the EFL and depending on what the panel concludes it is then the decision of the EFL?

I'd also like to know the answer to this question too.

What is the remit of this 'independent panel'... Is it:

(a) To simply adjudicate whether or not we're in breach of the two EFL regulations in question? 

(b) To adjudicate as per (a) but also to decide the severity of the breach(s)?

(c) Both the above, and also to decide upon the punishment(s)?

 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, tisspahars said:

Huge move on Boro in the Betfair market in the last hour - 10/1 into 4/1 having been steady all day up to then....

callings @Matthew Le God to explain how betting odds work

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Its utter mental. Honestly, the Boro PR team have played a blinder. 

Everyone has forgotten how they finished the season and all focus is now on how much of a hero HellBerg is for surving through such a difficult time of his life. 

Propaganda really does work,  been incredible coordinated approach 

You've had hypocritical cunts like Henry Winter piling in on Saints when he was playing quite a different tune for Leeds a few years back. 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Sums it up 

Exactly.

Was there any discernable change in our formation from the last 15 games under Tonda? No. Did Middlesboro do anything different from their last 15 games which are freely available to watch? Doubt it. Add to that the way they were all over us in the first 45 minutes at Middlesboro and it is obvious we gained no advantage.

I trust EFL and those studying this treacherous misdemonour will have the common sense to realise this is media hype getting out of hand and put an end to this nonsense soon. 

And I am laying at those 4/1 odds...

 

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

callings @Matthew Le God to explain how betting odds work

He's in handcuffs in the holding cell at SMS, Dragan is about to send him on a Serbian holiday, no return journey has been booked at this time. 

[trousers]

43 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I think the truth is somewhere in between. From what we've read from people with insight into how analysts work, they assemble the data which is then presented to the manager/coaching team to use in preparation for the game. It isn't marked with "this was seen in training today" or "they did this in a game V Norwich". 

So the analyst department may be culpable as a whole but that doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the club were aware.

The trouble is, if Tonda finds a post-it note on his desk that says: "Hayden Hackney isn't going to play tomorrow" it doesn't take a genius to work out how that information was likely gleaned... Ye olde 'ignorance is not a defence'...?

[Mozz]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'd also like to know the answer to this question too.

What is the remit of this 'independent panel'... Is it:

(a) To simply adjudicate whether or not we're in breach of the two EFL regulations in question? 

(b) To adjudicate as per (a) but also to decide the severity of the breach(s)?

(c) Both the above, and also to decide upon the punishment(s)?

 

All of the above, though it seems A unlikely to be required as reported unlikely we contest breach.

I know it’s lengthy, but the Swindon case linked on the previous page is very much worth a read to understand how the process works and the considerations that go into deciding the sanction.

[GDog07]

Merely just posing the thought about whether this could be a ‘timing’ mistake by the analyst, not outwith the 72hr window, other than anything more sinister and dramatic as has been described?

Pardon my ignorance if the way this analyst was viewing Middlesbrough at their training ground is not normal analyst behaviour.

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

The trouble is, if Tonda finds a post-it note on his desk that says: "Hayden Hackney isn't going to play tomorrow" it doesn't take a genius to work out how that information was likely gleaned... Ye olde 'ignorance is not a defence'...?

That's not how information is presented to them from the analyst team though. Also, I wasn't keeping track at the time but I imagine his injury wasn't a complete secret before the game? Did he get injured in training or during a previous game?

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

Quick. Get Tonda on TV crying how hard he's worked for Saints last 20 games and how he misses his family....

[Saint Troy]

6 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Propaganda really does work,  been incredible coordinated approach 

You've had hypocritical cunts like Henry Winter piling in on Saints when he was playing quite a different tune for Leeds a few years back. 

It’s not the same though. He called for tighter rules, they were brought in, that’s what we have/haven’t broken. I’m not saying we should be kicked out but I don’t think he’s basing his option fully on propaganda 

[Zorba]

28 minutes ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

Me too!

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Zorba

[John Boy Saint]

6 minutes ago, Hodds37 said:

Is there a president of what's happened to teams when they have broken EFL rules?

We know Leeds got a fine. 

Albeit different rules but surely theres quite a few times a rule has been broken? What have the punishments been?

Can't start having 2 tier punishments starting now with a first expulsion?  

As my Cousin who has close working experience of the EFL - said last night “they can and will do what they want”. As for  precedents there was no rule when Leeds got caught, they got a fine, and rule was put in place - which we are alleged to have broken. 
When Saints were going down the drain in the Championship with not much more than a button in our wallet. Rupert Lowe cited Derby County as an example of a team who had wiggled out of a similar financial position without too harsh a penalty. But due to Derby being clever whatsits the EFL introduced new rules to prevent teams playing fast and loose financially in the same way. Saints obviously didn’t read the whole memo and, tried to be clever dicks - The EFL threw the book at us as an example to others

Just have to hope lightening doesn’t strike twice. 

[do i not like fizzy pop]

This whole thing is just "throw enough sh!t at it and see how much sticks." 

 

[jamesfp1]

31 minutes ago, LeG said:

Dragan / the board are fuming. 

At the EFL? At Tonda? Ridiculous thing to post without clarifying in this atmosphere. 

[Weston Super Saint]

10 minutes ago, Saint Troy said:

It’s not the same though. He called for tighter rules, they were brought in, that’s what we have/haven’t broken. I’m not saying we should be kicked out but I don’t think he’s basing his option fully on propaganda 

They brought in new rules, but 'forgot' to link any sort of punishment to them.  Almost as if they knew everyone would break them anyway!

Imagine them saying there would be a 3 point deduction for anyone breaking the rules.  Games would be played, losing team would claim the opposition were spying and the independent tribunal would sit five times a week!

[Willo of Whiteley]

Just for balance, not all journos are bellends following a narrative:

 

[coalman]

1 minute ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Just for balance, not all journos are bellends following a narrative:

 

Nonsense. The only event that may come close is the persecution of a small group in Western Europe last century and, even then, it's a close run thing.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

As my Cousin who has close working experience of the EFL - said last night “they can and will do what they want”. As for  precedents there was no rule when Leeds got caught, they got a fine, and rule was put in place - which we are alleged to have broken. 
When Saints were going down the drain in the Championship with not much more than a button in our wallet. Rupert Lowe cited Derby County as an example of a team who had wiggled out of a similar financial position without too harsh a penalty. But due to Derby being clever whatsits the EFL introduced new rules to prevent teams playing fast and loose financially in the same way. Saints obviously didn’t read the whole memo and, tried to be clever dicks - The EFL threw the book at us as an example to others

Just have to hope lightening doesn’t strike twice. 

They won't do what they want. Our lawyers won't let them. 

Edited 5 hours ago by hypochondriac

[James]

Few of the more sensible journalists are starting to point out how ridiculous this all is. Gibson mouthpieces still frothing at the mouth and screaming

[Football Special]

15 minutes ago, Saint Troy said:

It’s not the same though. He called for tighter rules, they were brought in, that’s what we have/haven’t broken. I’m not saying we should be kicked out but I don’t think he’s basing his option fully on propaganda 

He is the propaganda 

[Miltonaggro]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

They won't do what they want. Our lawyers won't let them. 

Neither will theirs.

[die Mannyschaft]

3 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

As my Cousin who has close working experience of the EFL - said last night “they can and will do what they want”. As for  precedents there was no rule when Leeds got caught, they got a fine, and rule was put in place - which we are alleged to have broken. 
When Saints were going down the drain in the Championship with not much more than a button in our wallet. Rupert Lowe cited Derby County as an example of a team who had wiggled out of a similar financial position without too harsh a penalty. But due to Derby being clever whatsits the EFL introduced new rules to prevent teams playing fast and loose financially in the same way. Saints obviously didn’t read the whole memo and, tried to be clever dicks - The EFL threw the book at us as an example to others

Just have to hope lightening doesn’t strike twice. 

Saints will be the precedent for an example to clubs that you'll get removed from final or semi or QF or large points deduction if get caught.  Which after this no one will get caught.  It just just lead to other snooping or hacking into data to grab traing videos or insider to e mail for a brown envelope.  

[Zorba]

Can someone tell be why it’s not a £200k fine, as with Leeds the last time this alledgedly happened. Or did the EFL get it wrong last time? I don’t see the difference and all this other media nonsense is just that.

Hurry up and get the fucking tickets on sale!

[HarvSFC]

Recently Leicester cheated an entire season by playing by different financial rules than the other 23 teams in the league, assembling a team that was well paid for, allowing them to win the league. They got a six point deduction two years later, which to be fair did relegate them, but could have also had little to no impact on them.

Surely that's the base. Six points for having an advantage over an entire season, Leicester were a clear level above us and we also won promotion. Or, expulsion, fine and points deduction for watching a training session?

[hypochondriac]

All a bit different now. Reports saying that boro think they have built a compelling case to have us kicked out. That's rather different from some of the reporting over the last few days and is surely subjective. 

[trousers]

47 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Blimey I agree with soggy! 

 

[bender]

So if the play off final is definately on the 23rd, Hull can start selling tickets.

What a nightmare for either Boro or Saints though.  Shifting all their tickets in a few days.  Tickets will be easy to come by too as a lot of people would have already made other arrangements.

[Harry_SFC]

Just now, HarvSFC said:

Recently Leicester cheated an entire season by playing by different financial rules than the other 23 teams in the league, assembling a team that was well paid for, allowing them to win the league. They got a six point deduction two years later, which to be fair did relegate them, but could have also had little to no impact on them.

Surely that's the base. Six points for having an advantage over an entire season, Leicester were a clear level above us and we also won promotion. Or, expulsion, fine and points deduction for watching a training session?

Exactly.

It's like purposely murdering someone and getting a year in jail, but committing manslaughter gets you life.

It wouldn't be proportionate at all. 

[James]

22 minutes ago, Saint Troy said:

It’s not the same though. He called for tighter rules, they were brought in, that’s what we have/haven’t broken. I’m not saying we should be kicked out but I don’t think he’s basing his option fully on propaganda 

He called for tighter rules but called talk of a touch line ban for Bielsa “disproportionate”. The morality of the conduct is the same and he wasn’t calling for Leeds to get a points deduction or to be thrown out of the league or that the saga was a stain on the club’s reputation. Rules have changed but there are still no set punishments. This time he seems to have decided that the same conduct should carry a fine that is essentially 1000 times larger than that which was levied on Leeds.

[Jimmy_D]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

All a bit different now. Reports saying that boro think they have built a compelling case to have us kicked out. That's rather different from some of the reporting over the last few days and is surely subjective. 

That’s the same reporter that was claiming high tech equipment was being used to spy.

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Neither will theirs.

True. How do you see it playing out? Simon Jordan had spoken to Gibson and suggested we do a private deal with Middlesbrough but it seems things have progressed past that point. 

[saintant]

Boro saying whistelblower is an analyst who we sacked in December - they claim he approached Boro when this whole sorry saga started and has provided them with details of other clubs we spied on.

Anyone know if we sacked an analyst in december?

[The very right reverend]

My take on it is its so close to the Final it will have some bearing (subliminally or otherwise) on the decision.

If we're thrown out, we appeal and that means the Final may not be played for weeks in which Hull can say they're being hugely disadvantaged and the EFL in turn open themselves up to another dispute, right now there'll be backchanneling between serial court room specialist Gibson, the EFL and us to work out a package, and even more cynically if we do get promoted it will be more than if we don't which shows how opportunistic Middlesbrough and Gibson have been.

Edited 5 hours ago by The very right reverend

[CSA96]

As it stands, there are clearly two issues at hand:

1. The original incident against Middlesbrough last week - We are clearly guilty, it's widely known that we won't contest it and the punishment won't be expulsion for an isolated incident and a first offence

2. Have Saints been cheating throughout the season? - If this is provable and can be traced back to orders from on high, then the gloves are off and our entire season is called into question

Gibson already knows that we are not contesting Point 1 but he also knows that it won't lead to us not being allowed to have the chance to carry on and win the playoffs and return to the Premier League. So now he has been frantically building a case around Point 2, trying to submit as much permissible and substantial evidence to prove that Saints have been up to no good all season and simply cannot be allowed to win the playoffs by the EFL

I am not concerned by Point 1 but Point 2 is concerning, especially with the reports re: the whistleblower and being confident in having significant evidence that will lead to our removal from the playoffs

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

All a bit different now. Reports saying that boro think they have built a compelling case to have us kicked out. That's rather different from some of the reporting over the last few days and is surely subjective. 

Surely it’s not up to boro to build a case. They are not the ones prosecuting this. They give evidence of what happened at the training ground and that’s it

[tisspahars]

41 minutes ago, tisspahars said:

Huge move on Boro in the Betfair market in the last hour - 10/1 into 4/1 having been steady all day up to then....

Easing back out a bit now.

[RedArmy]

Get them fucking tickets on sale and stop worrying. 

[ooh it's a corner]

Steve Gibson is a wanker,
He wears a wanker's hat, 
And when we go to spy on him, 
We'll see he's just a twat.
He'll threaten legal action, 
Just to try his luck,
And when we win at Wem-ber-ly, 
We won't give a flying fuck.

[sfc4prem]

37 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Propaganda really does work,  been incredible coordinated approach 

You've had hypocritical cunts like Henry Winter piling in on Saints when he was playing quite a different tune for Leeds a few years back. 

This has boiled my piss. The cunt has gone in fucking hard on us, helping the media pile-on in vilifying our club. Now his hypocrisy is revealed for all to see.