#Spygate

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

Surely it’s not up to boro to build a case. They are not the ones prosecuting this. They give evidence of what happened at the training ground and that’s it

They submit all the evidence they have to the independent bloke of systemic cheating. They believe it's compelling but it doesn't mean that the independent board will agree. 

[die Mannyschaft]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

Boro saying whistelblower is an analyst who we sacked in December - they claim he approached Boro when this whole sorry saga started and has provided them with details of other clubs we spied on.

Anyone know if we sacked an analyst in december?

Unlikely as Saints could just of made statement before 1st leg that spy not on pay roll and went in Dec. Saving all the Boro frenzy and EFL keeling over.

[DellBlockH]

25 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

As my Cousin who has close working experience of the EFL - said last night “they can and will do what they want”. As for  precedents there was no rule when Leeds got caught, they got a fine, and rule was put in place - which we are alleged to have broken. 
When Saints were going down the drain in the Championship with not much more than a button in our wallet. Rupert Lowe cited Derby County as an example of a team who had wiggled out of a similar financial position without too harsh a penalty. But due to Derby being clever whatsits the EFL introduced new rules to prevent teams playing fast and loose financially in the same way. Saints obviously didn’t read the whole memo and, tried to be clever dicks - The EFL threw the book at us as an example to others

Just have to hope lightening doesn’t strike twice. 

Lightning. 😉

[Zorba]

1 minute ago, DellBlockH said:

Lightning. 😉

Enlightening.

[Willo of Whiteley]

Plot Twist 538,539,129:

Saints get kicked out but Middlesbrough don’t get reinstated as they’ve technically lost the tie.

Hull go up by default.

Steve Gibson sues the EFL and the fans headloss explodes some more. 😂

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

As it stands, there are clearly two issues at hand:

1. The original incident against Middlesbrough last week - We are clearly guilty, it's widely known that we won't contest it and the punishment won't be expulsion for an isolated incident and a first offence

2. Have Saints been cheating throughout the season? - If this is provable and can be traced back to orders from on high, then the gloves are off and our entire season is called into question

Gibson already knows that we are not contesting Point 1 but he also knows that it won't lead to us not being allowed to have the chance to carry on and win the playoffs and return to the Premier League. So now he has been frantically building a case around Point 2, trying to submit as much permissible and substantial evidence to prove that Saints have been up to no good all season and simply cannot be allowed to win the playoffs by the EFL

I am not concerned by Point 1 but Point 2 is concerning, especially with the reports re: the whistleblower and being confident in having significant evidence that will lead to our removal from the playoffs

There is no way they can build any solid evidence, and a response from us, by Tuesday on point 2. It's impossible. Trying to whip up feedback from all other Championship teams is a desperate attempt by Middlesbrough, because they have now realised that in isolation what we did at Boro was stupid, yes, but it really isn't the crime of the century and it won't provide them the free passage to the final they so clearly want. 

We've had so many variations of this story. 

1) Someone was hiding in the bushes

2) They'd broken into the Middlesborough training ground to film sessions.

3) Someone was in a field with high tech surveillance and spying equipment, microphones to pic up audio from meters away.

4) The actual picture, showing a kid behind a tree with an IPhone on a public right of way and nothing else.

So why did they make up 1, 2 and 3? It's because they're desperate, they wanted to use this to create an advantage and they have used all of their tools and contacts to rile up any media contacts they have to pump the journo's with it. 

If Boro are shown up to have blown this up and tried to 'exaggerate things', including digging up personal info, dragging someone's career through the mud and the clubs name through the gutter to make it seem worse than it was, then I hope both the Intern and ourselves sue the fuckers to the hilt for deformation and reputational damages.

[CSA96]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

There is no way they can build any solid evidence, and a response from us, by Tuesday on point 2. It's impossible. Trying to whip up feedback from all other Championship teams is a desperate attempt by Middlesbrough, because they have now realised that in isolation what we did at Boro was stupid, yes, but it really isn't the crime of the century and it won't provide them the free passage to the final they so clearly want. 

We've had so many variations of this story. 

1) Someone was hiding in the bushes

2) They'd broken into the Middlesborough training ground to film sessions.

3) Someone was in a field with high tech surveillance and spying equipment, microphones to pic up audio from meters away.

4) The actual picture, showing a kid behind a tree with an IPhone on a public right of way and nothing else.

So why did they make up 1, 2 and 3? It's because they're desperate, they wanted to use this to create an advantage and they have used all of their tools and contacts to rile up any media contacts they have to pump the journo's with it. 

If Boro are shown up to have blown this up and tried to 'exaggerate things', including digging up personal info, dragging someone's career through the mud and the clubs name through the gutter to make it seem worse than it was, then I hope both the Intern and ourselves sue the fuckers to the hilt for deformation and reputational damages.

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactic from the club and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

Edited 1 hour ago by CSA96

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

I hope both the Intern and ourselves sue the fuckers to the hilt for deformation and reputational damages.

Yes, I would imagine we would be seeking significant damages if anyone at the club ended up deformed as a result of their actions.

[LeBizzier69]

One positive that some of us can take from this saga is that is gives grounds to up the alcohol content until this deeply stressful situation is resolved. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

Cannot believe the EFL would risk a sanction that involves removing Saints from the competition - would be completely unfair and open to legal challenges. Precedence IF found guilty after looking at the full evidence would be a fine commensurate with the issue. Adding some form of points deduction, even delayed, would be disproportionate too. 

My feeling is there are two key unknowns that will have a bearing on the outcome - was the lad in full employ of Saints and under instruction, and secondly, has convincing evidence been provided that any training information gained was substantive enough to gain an advantage. That’s why Saints have insisted they need to investigate ‘context’ rather than just admitting to the charge as Leeds/Bielsa did. I guess we can all speculate - the next couple of days will reveal much.

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Unlikely as Saints could just of made statement before 1st leg that spy not on pay roll and went in Dec. Saving all the Boro frenzy and EFL keeling over.

It's not the 'spy' that was allegedly sacked, but the supposed whistleblower....

Edited 1 hour ago by trousers

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Just now, CSA96 said:

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactics since the summer and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

The alleged spying didn't much good when Still was here.

[ooh it's a corner]

1 minute ago, CSA96 said:

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactic and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

if the instruction from Spors is "we intend to watch the training of each team the week before we play them", we have broken no rules.

If the instruction from Spors is "we must watch the training of each time 24 hours before we play them", we have broken the rules.

All of it, is utter speculation. The KC will read the information provided by Boro and simply ignore anything that cannot be factually proven. Some sacked employee's verbal statement will be very hard to prove unless he is bringing smoking gun evidence with him - it would just be his word against the club's otherwise. 

[Toadhall Saint]

3 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactic from the club and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

A sacked employee - no axe to grind there no sireee.

[John Boy Saint]

8 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

Lightning. 😉

Thank you 

applemakeyoulookatitautocorrect obviously at play 🙄😁

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

Right, I've just wiped out my Betfair account laying Middlesbrough at 7.2 to get promoted because that ain't happening.

Now we need to knock some reality sense in to those making the decisions. SFC have gone on the silence and let's delay proceedings and hope everything blows over tactic but surely we have our own media team that can present a more balanced reasoning to everyone out there. I sense there's a general feeling among neutrals that the tide is moving towards this is a mountain made out of a molehill and we need to fuel this feeling.

[James]

Also, in case anyone cares Norwich paper has confirmed they aren’t assisting Boro so all that ITK stuff on the Boro forum is BS it seems. 

[RedArmy]

As the EFL have already acknowledged in their statement there will be appeals processes. 
 

These could take weeks and even months. 
 

How can they possibly think anything other than the game has to go ahead as planned next Saturday is a realistic option? 

[CSA96]

Just now, Toadhall Saint said:

A sacked employee - no axe to grind there no sireee.

That will obviously be considered but if they genuinely do have the receipts in terms of communications from Spors to the analysis team (which he pointed out he was assuming responsibility for when he was appointed) then it's fair evidence

[sfc4prem]

4 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactic from the club and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

If we'd systematically been spying, the fact that Still's Saints were up shit's creek without a paddle suggests that it wasn't giving us any sort of sporting advantage 😅

[HarvSFC]

Wouldn't the sacked person have to sign an NDA, like managers and players leaving clubs have to these days? Or does it not go down that far in the food chain. 

[Pamplemousse]

Could Middlesbrough appeal if they're not happy with the outcome?

[Toadhall Saint]

3 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

That will obviously be considered but if they genuinely do have the receipts in terms of communications from Spors to the analysis team (which he pointed out he was assuming responsibility for when he was appointed) then it's fair evidence

Really does depend on the words of said instruction. 

[Miltonaggro]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

True. How do you see it playing out? Simon Jordan had spoken to Gibson and suggested we do a private deal with Middlesbrough but it seems things have progressed past that point. 

I think the clubs and EFL / panel have been in 'talks' for the past week.  Middlesbrough's sole action is to make the complaint, the censure comes from the panel. Let's assume that Saints will say that the 'spy' is a young kid not reporting directly to the coaching team or Board. If the situation can be resolved via internal disciplinary action and a fine of circa £500k (most likely), Saints will pay it to get rid off the problem.  Points deduction plus a fine may stick in the craw but that call is on the Board in terms of appealing or moving on.  If the panel goes further (which would surprise me) and am certain Saints will litigate as per the previous post.  In large scale commercial litigation it's rather like poker in that the person with the deepest pockets usually wins, and that is Solak.  To paraphrase the great jurist William Wonka, Gibson 'get's nothing!'*

*and if he does I very much doubt we will hear about it.

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

Could Middlesbrough appeal if they're not happy with the outcome?

Probably

[sadoldgit]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

That will obviously be considered but if they genuinely do have the receipts in terms of communications from Spors to the analysis team (which he pointed out he was assuming responsibility for when he was appointed) then it's fair evidence

But if the alleged “spying” took place within the allowed timeframe elsewhere?

[CanadaSaint]

2 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

Could Middlesbrough appeal if they're not happy with the outcome?

Yes, and they probably will. But the horse will be out of the stable and many fields away, and nobody (other than them) will care.

If Saints appeal, it could stop the horse from going anywhere until things are resolved, and there will be a mayhem of uncertainty.

[Maggie May]

EFL chief executive is ex Portsmouth administrator Trevor Birch.

[Morse]

4 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

Could Middlesbrough appeal if they're not happy with the outcome?

Good question, but i think not. They are not the ones on trial. It would be like a victim of burglary appealing if a burger gets off. That doesn't happen. 

[trousers]

11 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Well it's being claimed there is a written statement from a former Saints employee that spying was a mandated tactic from the club and that there's a paper trail leading back to Johannes Spors, so that would be pretty solid if it can be put in front of the committee...

 

6 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

A sacked employee - no axe to grind there no sireee.

 

5 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

That will obviously be considered but if they genuinely do have the receipts in terms of communications from Spors to the analysis team (which he pointed out he was assuming responsibility for when he was appointed) then it's fair evidence

 

1 minute ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Really does depend on the words of said instruction. 

Indeed... The instruction could have been: "Go and watch Middlesbrough training this week but make sure you don't stray into the 72 day embargo period"

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Miltonaggro said:

I think the clubs and EFL / panel have been in 'talks' for the past week.  Middlesbrough's sole action is to make the complaint, the censure comes from the panel. Let's assume that Saints will say that the 'spy' is a young kid not reporting directly to the coaching team or Board. If the situation can be resolved via internal disciplinary action and a fine of circa £500k (most likely), Saints will pay it to get rid off the problem.  Points deduction plus a fine may stick in the craw but that call is on the Board in terms of appealing or moving on.  If the panel goes further (which would surprise me) and am certain Saints will litigate as per the previous post.  In large scale commercial litigation it's rather like poker in that the person with the deepest pockets usually wins, and that is Solak.  To paraphrase the great jurist William Wonka, Gibson 'get's nothing!'*

*and if he does I very much doubt we will hear about it.

Is it the efl who set the penalty or the independent panel? What do you make of the random rumour that there's a paper trail back to spors and we've been engaging in it since the summer? 

[benjii]

1 hour ago, Oisin said:

 

Paradoxically, if we are shown to be serial offenders it actually weakens Boros case for replacing us in the final as all other clubs would have been impacted so it’d have to be a points deduction, otherwise Boro are the only wronged party to get any recompense.

This. It would mean not just Boro have a grievance and any action should not be limited to playoffs.

So if we get a retrospective points deduction that means we wouldn't have finished in the top 6, then Boro should have to play a semi against Wrexham, not get a bye to the final.

If we got a smaller deduction than that it would mean no reason for Boro to be reinstated as no reason why they should get special treatment.

Plus an investigation spanning multiple games over the whole season needs much longer than about 10 days to conclude.

 

 

[CSA96]

Just now, trousers said:

 

 

 

Indeed... The instruction could have been: "Go and watch Middlesbrough training this week but make sure you don't stray into the 72 day embargo period"

You would assume Middlesbrough wouldn't be telling all and sundry that they have strong evidence and feel confident if that was the case, but then I remember the photo of Inspector Gadget and his high tech surveillance equipment, so who truly knows

[James G]

It's not mandated spying. He was spying the wrong training pitch, using a phone and very visible

I think it's just going to be a case of, based on what was posted earlier, this is what analyst interns do as part of our education, it's generally accepted by clubs. Salt could get other interns in to corroborate this. The panel will probably decide this activity needs to stop. New guidance will be issued to clubs.

It'll be deemed unsporting, but we gained very little from it. We'll get a slap on the wrist in some way

We then move on, but Gibson will continue his press barrage and try and sue us

I do think action should be taken against Boro just for all this nonsense, but just based on what people have posted here, it's probably not worth the bother. He seems a bit unhinged and it'll be the equivalent of poking a tiger

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

EFL chief executive is ex Portsmouth administrator Trevor Birch.

Keep up Maggie me ol' mucker...

 

[coalman]

8 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

Could Middlesbrough appeal if they're not happy with the outcome?

There is no appeal process to the EFL for this. Middlesbrough would have to take it to court if they disagreed that much. As would we.

[saintant]

24 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Unlikely as Saints could just of made statement before 1st leg that spy not on pay roll and went in Dec. Saving all the Boro frenzy and EFL keeling over.

You've not read my message properly 🙂

[hypochondriac]

I must say I'm quite surprised Middlesbrough haven't just been really quiet about all this until the case is over. All the leaking and all the headlines are obviously being done to maximise the pressure and not any sign of confidence on their part. 

[CSA96]

 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, coalman said:

There is no appeal process to the EFL for this. Middlesbrough would have to take it to court if they disagreed that much. As would we.

Which we would clearly. 

[scumbag]

I cant imagine any rational person would even consider the possibility of expulsion as being remotely proportonate if the internet didnt exist. It's a ridiculous world - madness of crowds etc. 

I know the rule came in after the 200k Leeds fine, but to go from that (and all the journalists that found it funny at the time), to being potentially expelled from a competition is a level of absurdity totally fitting of the age in which we live.  This seems like a real test of due process, and a related assessment of materiality.

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, benjii said:

This. It would mean not just Boro have a grievance and any action should not be limited to playoffs.

So if we get a retrospective points deduction that means we wouldn't have finished in the top 6, then Boro should have to play a semi against Wrexham, not get a bye to the final.

If we got a smaller deduction than that it would mean no reason for Boro to be reinstated as no reason why they should get special treatment.

Plus an investigation spanning multiple games over the whole season needs much longer than about 10 days to conclude.

 

 

And Saints could possibly also counter-accuse other teams for doing the same thing... 

 

[The Wyvern]

1 hour ago, Saint Troy said:

It’s not the same though. He called for tighter rules, they were brought in, that’s what we have/haven’t broken. I’m not saying we should be kicked out but I don’t think he’s basing his option fully on propaganda 

Clearly a very different tone from Winter here compared with what he’s used with us. 

[badgerx16]

"All options ar4e on the table".............

Yes, I know you're only accused of shoplifting a mars bar, but the death penalty is still availiable.

Edited 1 hour ago by badgerx16

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I must say I'm quite surprised Middlesbrough haven't just been really quiet about all this until the case is over. All the leaking and all the headlines are obviously being done to maximise the pressure and not any sign of confidence on their part. 

I still remain convinced that all the media rubbish was a build up to try to gain an advantage, both in advance of their home and away legs. Ironically they could have actually gained more of an advantage with that approach than we did with our alleged iPhone behind a tree. So equally, I'd say they've been quite unsportsmanlike too.

It's all quietened down a little from their side now I've found, no more leaks about the incredible surveillance equipment or the route he took to change coming into the press.

They can't gain a sporting advantage themselves now, so what we are seeing now are the final throws of the official process that Middlesbrough started with the EFL.

[coalman]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Which we would clearly. 

That's more interesting. The EFL could organise this in such a way that we could appeal but we'd wind up being liable for everyone's costs if we lost. For example - we'd have to pick up the bill for lost revenue from the match.

By the same token if we took them to court and demonstrated any punishment was completely disproportionate the EFL would have a similar liability plus liability for our losses. 

Nobody wants to go to court. This whole dance is, in some ways, a piece of performative art around every seeming to get something out of it without anyone having to exercise the nuclear option.

[Gloucester Saint]

32 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

This has boiled my piss. The cunt has gone in fucking hard on us, helping the media pile-on in vilifying our club. Now his hypocrisy is revealed for all to see.

Daily Telegraph - what do you expect. Cunt of a newspaper. Guardian, Mail no better either. 

[CSA96]

 

[sadoldgit]

38 minutes ago, saintant said:

Boro saying whistelblower is an analyst who we sacked in December - they claim he approached Boro when this whole sorry saga started and has provided them with details of other clubs we spied on.

Anyone know if we sacked an analyst in december?

Version of events #3,768

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, coalman said:

That's more interesting. The EFL could organise this in such a way that we could appeal but we'd wind up being liable for everyone's costs if we lost. For example - we'd have to pick up the bill for lost revenue from the match.

By the same token if we took them to court and demonstrated any punishment was completely disproportionate the EFL would have a similar liability plus liability for our losses. 

Nobody wants to go to court. This whole dance is, in some ways, a piece of performative art around every seeming to get something out of it without anyone having to exercise the nuclear option.

Yeah I agree and Simon Jordan has said as much and he's spoken to Gibson.