The Spygate Saga

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

The timescale thing is a red herring. We knew what we'd done, we knew the rules, we knew the case against us. Our only decision was what to accept, what to fight, and what mitigation to put forward.

We then messed up some more.

Evidence against us included from the kid himself. My understanding is we called him to give evidence. That lad should have been so upset that he couldn't possibly give evidence, not ponied up to point the finger at the club andTonda. 

We then took the whole "it ain't serious, it only warrants a fine" line. 

Pissing off the investigation team, hiring non specialist lawyers, calling the kid to throw us further under the bus, then pissing the panel off some more with an unrealistic stance, then ditching our counsel after the hearing (presumably as she was shit) giving the new bloke 5 minutes to prepare, etc, etc. 

But yeah, let's just focus on some 12 hour point. 

Throw in the CEO or whatever position Parsons is in mouthing off in front of Gibson.

Amateurs.

[egg]

Just now, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Throw in the CEO or whatever position Parsons is in mouthing off in front of Gibson.

Amateurs.

Indeed. 

And doing it to begin with. 

[Bob60]

Last post, it depends if you believe that everyone in the club knew what was going on, I don't think they did. From what I read the did what they could in the very limited timescale. 

A football club is a large business we should have been given enough time to fully investigate what had happened before having to reply. Or mistake was not pushing back on the timescales. 

But different opinions are allowed I believe, this is just my view from conversations I have had.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Bob60 said:

Last post, it depends if you believe that everyone in the club knew what was going on, I don't think they did. From what I read the did what they could in the very limited timescale. 

A football club is a large business we should have been given enough time to fully investigate what had happened before having to reply. Or mistake was not pushing back on the timescales. 

But different opinions are allowed I believe, this is just my view from conversations I have had.

The tribunal hearing was not fixed at 12 hours notice.

The appeal was quick, if that's what you mean. 

In law, urgent appeals, sometimes same day, are common. You shouldn't need time to prepare for them. Appeals are based on the court/tribunal getting it wrong, and the legal team will have known how they say the decision was wrong. 

The difficulty we had is we got it wrong. We acknowledged that by sacking counsel and bringing someone else. He wasn't on the hearing, won't have known every detail, and was playing catch up. 

It was a disaster from the club from the off. That's undeniable. 

[LiberalCommunist]

My elderly, easily confused dad told me the case punishment had dropped yesterday.

 £10m fine and given a suspended ban from registering new players for two transfer windows for breaching rules. 

Suspended six-point deduction.

Thanked for being forthcoming with information regarding the breach.........

It was at this point, half way through an air punch of celebration I realised he'd heard the Chelsea non-punishment.

Fuck my life. 

Edited Saturday at 14:46 by LiberalCommunist

[Saints4Prem]

21 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

My elderly, easily confused dad told me the case punishment had dropped yesterday.

 £10m fine and given a suspended ban from registering new players for two transfer windows for breaching rules. 

Suspended six-point deduction.

Thanked for being forthcoming with information regarding the breech.........

It was at this point, half way through an air punch of celebration I realised he'd heard the Chelsea non-punishment.

Fuck my life. 

Seriously you thought we would get off lightly 😇

[Bob60]

13 hours ago, egg said:

The tribunal hearing was not fixed at 12 hours notice.

The appeal was quick, if that's what you mean. 

In law, urgent appeals, sometimes same day, are common. You shouldn't need time to prepare for them. Appeals are based on the court/tribunal getting it wrong, and the legal team will have known how they say the decision was wrong. 

The difficulty we had is we got it wrong. We acknowledged that by sacking counsel and bringing someone else. He wasn't on the hearing, won't have known every detail, and was playing catch up. 

It was a disaster from the club from the off. That's undeniable. 

I was not talking about the appeal, in his first comments Dragon started that we were told off Boros complaint and given hours to reply just before the first leg, even at the first meeting we admitted what had happened.

[benjii]

It's remarkable that Parsons still has a job, never mind Tonda.

[IFHP]

14 minutes ago, benjii said:

It's remarkable that Parsons still has a job, never mind Tonda.

Have to agree, his handling of this whole thing has been amateurish from the start. 

[beatlesaint]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

It's remarkable that Parsons still has a job, never mind Tonda.

Yes totally agree, and on top of it he somehow gets an award from the University ffs

[SaintsLoyal]

7 hours ago, benjii said:

It's remarkable that Parsons still has a job, never mind Tonda.

 i think Solak is fed up with the whole process of staff coming and going, but Parsons should resign, hes a dead man walking and must look a right div when the FL have their meetings.  

 

[SouSaint]

7 hours ago, benjii said:

It's remarkable that Parsons still has a job, never mind Tonda.

Hopefully the vacuum salesman gets some grief at the fan forum. 

[Badger]

33 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

 i think Solak is fed up with the whole process of staff coming and going, but Parsons should resign, hes a dead man walking and must look a right div when the FL have their meetings.  

 

Several articles and reports indicate he’s done well on the commercial side of things. That should possibly have remained his remit. But heading up a football club operation is a step beyond that. 

[HarvSFC]

 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

15 minutes ago, HarvSFC said:

 

Interestingly he didn't deny that everyone does it...

[Toussaint]

They’ll be spying on league one sides next season, two demoralising batterings from us will destroy their goal difference and their confidence. They shall be destroyed. 

[LiberalCommunist]

I'm going to long remember how the media handled this, as well as the governing bodies. Some of the shit I've listened to from these two faced chancers.

And the deafening silence when its one of their fancy clubs. Yeah, real journalism shining through. 

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Interestingly he didn't deny that everyone does it...

That was basically an admission that everyone does it... to be Pompey manager and not put the boot in over that question is actually quite staggering.

[hypochondriac]

56 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

That was basically an admission that everyone does it... to be Pompey manager and not put the boot in over that question is actually quite staggering.

Bit of a missed opportunity. If I were pompey manager -perish the thought- I'd be currying favour and milking it.

[Willo of Whiteley]

Why does anyone care what he thinks?

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Why does anyone care what he thinks?

Not sure anyone does?

[LiberalCommunist]

7 hours ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Why does anyone care what he thinks?

A manager of a rival team, in the same league as us, answering with honesty and integrity rather than just taking a cheap shot like every other observer has done over the last four months. 

I care. In fact I'm holding out for a hero. One day someone is going to break the seal, and confirm how normalised the spying had become before our subsequent persecution. 

I care. 

[M271]

11 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

I'm going to long remember how the media handled this, as well as the governing bodies. Some of the shit I've listened to from these two faced chancers.

And the deafening silence when its one of their fancy clubs. Yeah, real journalism shining through. 

It’s still really suspicious, that within hours of Middlesbrough ‘catching’ the spy in the act behind the tree, it was all over the media and they had found evidence and details of instances with Oxford and Ipswich. It’s like they knew in advance that it was going to happen but did nothing to prevent it but were there ready to catch him in the act and had contacted other clubs for evidence.

[Willo of Whiteley]

We all know it was a set up. The fact that that J Taylor (who was let go by Saints) went into hiding screams volumes.

[Fabrice29]

Acting like catching someone for doing something is some big conspiracy 😂

[Graffito]

13 hours ago, HarvSFC said:

 

That’s a yes then. They’re all at it.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Acting like catching someone for doing something is some big conspiracy 😂

Entrapment. Set- up. Take your pick.

[Fabrice29]

7 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Entrapment. Set- up. Take your pick.

I’m not even sure what you’re suggesting tbh. Are you saying the Saints staff didn’t organise to do the spying at their own free will?

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m not even sure what you’re suggesting tbh. Are you saying the Saints staff didn’t organise to do the spying at their own free will?

No he's saying that the ex Middlesbrough intern we got rid of tipped off Middlesborough that Mr Salt was going to be there. I suspect that he did but even if he did it doesn't make it entrapment let's not be ridiculous.

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No he's saying that the ex Middlesbrough intern we got rid of tipped off Middlesborough that Mr Salt was going to be there. I suspect that he did but even if he did it doesn't make it entrapment let's not be ridiculous.

So someone grassed on us doing something bad when they found out about it? Still not seeing anything to be outraged about tbh. This whole thing has made people lose their minds just because the allegiance to the club 😂

[James]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

No he's saying that the ex Middlesbrough intern we got rid of tipped off Middlesborough that Mr Salt was going to be there. I suspect that he did but even if he did it doesn't make it entrapment let's not be ridiculous.

The point is that Middlesbrough saw an opportunity to use something which, in my opinion goes on throughout the league week in week out and is done by most other clubs, to their advantage if they couldn’t beat us on the pitch which is what they did to great effect.
 

Doesn’t make it right that we did it and doesn’t make it any less stupid but if Boro were waiting ready to gather evidence then it does show they were ready to use it to their advantage and it wasn’t something they just happened to notice on the day.
 

They were perfectly entitled to do what they did btw, any club would do the same.

[Fabrice29]

14 minutes ago, James said:

The point is that Middlesbrough saw an opportunity to use something which, in my opinion goes on throughout the league week in week out and is done by most other clubs, to their advantage if they couldn’t beat us on the pitch which is what they did to great effect.
 

Doesn’t make it right that we did it and doesn’t make it any less stupid but if Boro were waiting ready to gather evidence then it does show they were ready to use it to their advantage and it wasn’t something they just happened to notice on the day.
 

They were perfectly entitled to do what they did btw, any club would do the same.

This whole every other club does it theory is perfectly fine but does actually seem to lack any evidence of it actually happening other than assumptions and hearsay. It also doesn’t disregard the fact that we did it, got caught, admitted it and even have someone at the top saying they didn’t know we couldn’t do it which is a terrible look for more than one reason and goes against any kind of stitch up argument.

Edited 4 hours ago by Fabrice29

[Nordic Saint]

30 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No he's saying that the ex Middlesbrough intern we got rid of tipped off Middlesborough that Mr Salt was going to be there. I suspect that he did but even if he did it doesn't make it entrapment let's not be ridiculous.

We might just as well call him the Middlesbrough spy. The information he reported back to Middlesbrough was far more useful than anything Saints gathered.

[obelisk]

17 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

This whole every other club does it theory is perfectly fine but does actually seem to lack any evidence of it actually happening other than assumptions and hearsay. It also doesn’t disregard the fact that we did it, got caught, admitted it and even have someone at the top saying they didn’t know we couldn’t do it which is a terrible look for more than one reason and goes against any kind of stitch up argument.

None of that counters the fact that the whole saga has been totally overblown with the EFL getting caught up in a media campaign and then getting a dodgy looking panel to hand down a ridiculously severe punishment. Of course nobody is publicly going to admit to widespread scouting after looking at what was inflicted on Saints.

[CB Fry]

Not going to lie I was expecting something to be announced by now. Surely if they have an intent to ban the guy (even if just for a few games) the FA are not going to let Tonda lead the team out on Saturday? Seems mad to me. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Not going to lie I was expecting something to be announced by now. Surely if they have an intent to ban the guy (even if just for a few games) the FA are not going to let Tonda lead the team out on Saturday? Seems mad to me. 

Had a chat with someone about it today. It's clear that there is no written punishment for this and therefore any punishment Tonda gets is the subjective opinion of the committee. The committee will be fully aware of the timings of this, that a lengthy ban will force us to sack him immediately before or just after the start of the season. They will know presumably that we will seek to appeal and throw what we can at it and make some lives uncomfortable. I think they will want to seek some middle ground in order to prevent all that drama and a headache that they don't need. Obviously they still could do something draconian but given how long this has dragged on that really does feel like giving themselves a bit of a problem.

[westmidlandsaint]

Normally when charged by the FA you have the opportunity to either appeal or attend the disciplinary hearing (if you wish for the panel to take mitigating factors into consideration). Otherwise the panel will decide on a sanction based on the evidence that led to the charge.

The hearing is usually heard within 2 weeks of the charges. I am guessing that with a decision not being published as yet and with Tonda being in Germany last week that it sounds like Tonda/legal reps have asked to attend the hearing. Which you would have thought would be the start of this week. The results of the hearing are usually communicated to the person/club within 24 hours. So hopefully it has to be imminent.

[James]

50 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

This whole every other club does it theory is perfectly fine but does actually seem to lack any evidence of it actually happening other than assumptions and hearsay. It also doesn’t disregard the fact that we did it, got caught, admitted it and even have someone at the top saying they didn’t know we couldn’t do it which is a terrible look for more than one reason and goes against any kind of stitch up argument.

Don’t disagree with any of that but you can infer from the reaction of the wider footballing community (outside of the talking heads and twitter wind ups) that this isn’t the kind of one off heinous crime that Boro and the EFL whipped it up to be. All of your points can be true at the same time as acknowledging that Middlesbrough were well prepared to take full advantage of the situation, given they likely knew it was about to happen, which is exactly what they did. 

Edited 3 hours ago by James

[Fabrice29]

49 minutes ago, obelisk said:

None of that counters the fact that the whole saga has been totally overblown with the EFL getting caught up in a media campaign and then getting a dodgy looking panel to hand down a ridiculously severe punishment. Of course nobody is publicly going to admit to widespread scouting after looking at what was inflicted on Saints.

Overblown media campaign sure but it was in lead up to a pretty big game so hardly a shock. Nor was the punishment given teams being kicked out of cup competitions for breaking cup competition rules which is reasonably in line with quite a lot of football up and down the country especially given the time frame involved. I do think people are massively overreacting to this whole thing which is a pretty cut and dry case of breaking rules and being punished for them and now waiting for the individual punishment to be handed out ( which Saints have known about since last week but that pesky Chelsea case is still in the way I assume)

Edited 3 hours ago by Fabrice29

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

But, but, but….no one likes a grass.

Gobby Gibbo and the Teeside Squealers, bunch of wrong”uns imo

[Willo of Whiteley]

The fact this is still rumbling on is just incredible funny and weak from the FA now.

They know everyone does is but the fact the EFL sanctioned us in some form means they have to make just as big an example. 😂

[AlexLaw76]

36 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

The fact this is still rumbling on is just incredible funny and weak from the FA now.

They know everyone does is but the fact the EFL sanctioned us in some form means they have to make just as big an example. 😂

I agree. It is getting totally daft now

[westmidlandsaint]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

The fact this is still rumbling on is just incredible funny and weak from the FA now.

They know everyone does is but the fact the EFL sanctioned us in some form means they have to make just as big an example. 😂

Makes you think though doesn't it how the EFL managed to investigate, disciplinary hearing and appeal so quickly yet the FA have had 3 months and still no decision!!