Should Saints sack Tonda?

[Challenger]

Sack him, he's caused a lot of shit.

Keep him, it will piss off Boro and the EFL.

Wait for the FA to potentially decide for us.

[LaptopSaint]

27 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

It’s one thing watching training  that is just running round cones, it’s another to watch close to a game when drills, set-pieces and who is fit are concentrated on.

That’s why the 72 hour rule is there and that’s why Tonda sent his minions to watch Oxford, Ipswich and Boro in that timescale.

If it’s so important why isn’t it a rule in the premier league? Or the bundesliga? Or la Liga? Or serie A? I could go on but you get my point. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, LaptopSaint said:

If it’s so important why isn’t it a rule in the premier league? Or the bundesliga? Or la Liga? Or serie A? I could go on but you get my point. 

No idea why it isn’t and irrelevant 

[Wade Garrett]

7 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

If it’s so important why isn’t it a rule in the premier league? Or the bundesliga? Or la Liga? Or serie A? I could go on but you get my point. 

Couldn’t give a shit.  We play in the EFL.

[LaptopSaint]

4 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Couldn’t give a shit.  We play in the EFL.

Not your strongest argument, but do carry on. The evidence suggests nearly all serious leagues in the world don’t think spying on/scouting your opponents in the 72 hours before a match makes any discernible difference. Which is why our punishment was massively disproportionate. And why we should take a strategic view of whether we should keep Tonda or not. If either a) he gets a long FA ban or b) the players make it clear they won’t play for him, the answer is not. But we’re not there yet. 

[grezz]

Voted for a reluctant sacking but to be honest there are so many fors/against in my mind. I think he knew, he did it anyway and he was pretty ruthless with the kids about it, but then it was all so amateurish one wonders if he really understood the potential consequences. I can't imagine he's said "And whatever you do, don't get caught." based on how young Will was rumbled.

In the end though, he cheated and as much as I'd like to keep him I don't think we can.

[MarkSFC]

Did he Cheat? Or did he simply break tbe rules? Or was it a combination of those things? 

As per regulation 127 observing another teams training session within 72 hoirs of a match with them is prohibited. Doing so outside of this time period is not specifically prohibited. 

Taking a throw-in and stepping over the touchline "breaks the rules". Is that cheating? Does that potentially have more of an impact than observation? 

Pulling someone's shirt is breaking the rules. Or is it cheating? 

Diving is breaking the rules. Is that cheating? Is that worse? 

Grabbing hold of opponents at a corner is breaking the rules. Is that cheating? 

Pulling soneone down very blatantly when they are through on goal is breaking the rules. Is it cheating? Normally it is regarded as so and a simple red card is normally advised. Is this worse? 

Most if not all managers and coaches, and players will break certain rules to attempt to gain an advantage on tbe field of play. Are any of them.worse than another? Is observing the worst of them all? 

Im not so sure it is. If the players can work with him then keep him. Hes the best we have had for quite a while. Other clubs will give us stick whoever the manager is so we may as well have one who has a good chance of getting us promoted. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

Not your strongest argument, but do carry on. The evidence suggests nearly all serious leagues in the world don’t think spying on/scouting your opponents in the 72 hours before a match makes any discernible difference. Which is why our punishment was massively disproportionate. And why we should take a strategic view of whether we should keep Tonda or not. If either a) he gets a long FA ban or b) the players make it clear they won’t play for him, the answer is not. But we’re not there yet. 

Well it is. What happens in the Premier League is neither here nor there regarding the rules of the game we agreed/signed up to.

That is why we are taking it on the chin, that is why we appealed and little/nothing was said that it is fine to do so in another competition. 

That is why, despite a few on here saying we would, have not 'gone legal' on it.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[Willo of Whiteley]

If Saints are waiting for the FA so they don’t come off as the bad guy - just get on with it. 
We already look incompetent.

[saintant]

9 hours ago, OzzySaint said:

If we had got a fine and not the ott punishment we got then would fans call for his sacking??

Exactly and the point I made earlier. He is being vilified because the EFL bowed to a public outcry which was akin to a modern day lynch mob. If we had received an appropriate punishment few would be calling for his sacking. We've taken the excess hit on the chin. Lets now move on and with Tonda if it's in any way possible. Why punish ourselves when we've been hammered enough? Eckert or Dyche - come on!

[Southner]

Even if the current squad is fully behind him and happy to play for him again, it's possible that potential new signings will be deterred.

If the current squad were fully behind Tonda, does that sense of confidence project when speaking with new players?

[sadoldgit]

35 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Couldn’t give a shit.  We play in the EFL.

That’s not the point, as you know full well. The point is that it is a ridiculous rule and although rules shouldn’t be broken, some transgressions are worse than others. Do you honestly think what we have done is worse than diving for a penalty or rolling around on the ground trying to get an opponent set off?

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

That’s not the point, as you know full well. The point is that it is a ridiculous rule and although rules shouldn’t be broken, some transgressions are worse than others. Do you honestly think what we have done is worse than diving for a penalty or rolling around on the ground trying to get an opponent set off?

does not matter if it ridiculous. Lots of rules and laws are ridiculous, like eating cake and losing your job, but you know....

[sadoldgit]

9 minutes ago, Southner said:

Even if the current squad is fully behind him and happy to play for him again, it's possible that potential new signings will be deterred.

If the current squad were fully behind Tonda, does that sense of confidence project when speaking with new players?

Why would the prospect of challenging for promotion deter anyone from signing for us? If he stays the practice will not continue. Eckert has proved that he is a very good coach and has turned players fortunes around. I don’t think it will be an issue. We are talking about footballers here after all!

[beatlesaint]

FFS Southampton, if you are sacking him or keeping him issue a bloody statement either way......the silence since last Wednesday night is deafening.

 

I assume there have been no sighting of the lesser spotted Tonda in the past few days. Possibly gone back to Germany for a while, dont know if hes married and has kids but if so might be best to get them out the way for a few weeks.

Edited 4 hours ago by beatlesaint

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

does not matter if it ridiculous. Lots of rules and laws are ridiculous, like eating cake and losing your job, but you know....

If you are referring to Boris Johnson, then this just might qualify for the dumbest post of the thread.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

If you are referring to Boris Johnson, then this just might qualify for the dumbest post of the thread.

Just saying, lots of laws and rules are ridiculous. Maybe we should have publicly protested as such earlier on in the season.

 

[sadoldgit]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Just saying, lots of laws and rules are ridiculous. Maybe we should have publicly protested as such earlier on in the season.

 

He wasn’t sacked for eating cake.

The issue here is not whether a rule was broken, it is the lack of proportionality to the crime.

Break a very important rule, get a big punishment.

Break a minor rule, get a minor punishment.

Get it yet?

[Southner]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

Why would the prospect of challenging for promotion deter anyone from signing for us? If he stays the practice will not continue. Eckert has proved that he is a very good coach and has turned players fortunes around. I don’t think it will be an issue. We are talking about footballers here after all!

It shouldn't at all really, especially if we can offer decent wages.

Would help if we manage to avoid a mass exodus this summer.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

He wasn’t sacked for eating cake.

The issue here is not whether a rule was broken, it is the lack of proportionality to the crime.

Break a very important rule, get a big punishment.

Break a minor rule, get a minor punishment.

Get it yet?

I look forward to our appeal for potential losses on the grounds that the club feel that particular rule/law that we have admitted to breaching multiple times, is "ridiculous"

Or, the line that we must keep Tonda because the indiscretion was centred around a 'ridiculous' law/rule, and that any junior member of staff moaning about it at the time or since, are also "ridiculous"

Can see it falling into place any day now.

[Wade Garrett]

45 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

Not your strongest argument, but do carry on. The evidence suggests nearly all serious leagues in the world don’t think spying on/scouting your opponents in the 72 hours before a match makes any discernible difference. Which is why our punishment was massively disproportionate. And why we should take a strategic view of whether we should keep Tonda or not. If either a) he gets a long FA ban or b) the players make it clear they won’t play for him, the answer is not. But we’re not there yet. 

Fucking hell, he knowingly broke the rules to try and get a sporting advantage.  It's irrelevant what rules other organisations have.  

The fact you think it makes little difference makes it even more wrong that Tonda risked our clubs future on spying.

I really don't get where you're coming from.

[Wade Garrett]

21 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

That’s not the point, as you know full well. The point is that it is a ridiculous rule and although rules shouldn’t be broken, some transgressions are worse than others. Do you honestly think what we have done is worse than diving for a penalty or rolling around on the ground trying to get an opponent set off?

It is very much the point,as you know full well.  

 

[sadoldgit]

7 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

It is very much the point,as you know full well.  

 

The point is that the punishment should fit the crime.

[Scummer]

13 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

It is very much the point,as you know full well.  

 

The point is, if saints feel the rule is stupid and the punishment disproportionate (and we've publicly said as much), then sacking our manager would be equally disproportionate.

If we do want to sack him, we've tied ourselves up in a bit of a knot as we can't go down a misconduct route if we don't think it's that serious.

Edited 3 hours ago by Scummer

[Willo of Whiteley]

@L1Minus10

Glen summed it up perfectly yesterday, any other business this is an issue, the club has been brought into disrepute because of his and potential others actions.

It should be a no brainer.

Tonda Eckhart shouldn’t be at the club anymore, his career here is over.

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Scummer said:

The point is, if saints feel the rule is stupid and the punishment disproportionate (and we've publicly said as much), then sacking our manager would be equally disproportionate.

not just about breaking the rules, it is the systemic will to go about doing it, and the apparent 'pressure' applied to those who raised that flag and suggested this is wrong.

Edited 3 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[trousers]

Why do people react to 'putting things into context' with: "that's not the point"...?

Somewhat ironically, they're missing the 'point' of the concept of putting things into context...

 

Edited 3 hours ago by trousers

[Southner]

Just now, trousers said:

Why do people react to 'putting things into context' with: "that's not the point?"

Somewhat ironically, they're missing the 'point' of the concept of putting things into context...

 

What's your point?

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, Scummer said:

The point is, if saints feel the rule is stupid and the punishment disproportionate (and we've publicly said as much), then sacking our manager would be equally disproportionate.

If we had been given a large fine along with a suspended points deduction but had been allowed to play in the final, would we even be having this discussion?

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The point is that the punishment should fit the crime.

You’ve consistently demonstrated that you’re totally unable to accept the severity of the ‘crime’ and what we’ve done. You don’t spy on another team’s training sessions so you can steal 10 yards at a throw in. You do it to completely subvert their game plan, formation, set pieces and starting XI. You do it to win a game, not a penalty.

If you win and get caught, you don’t get to then say, "ah well all the cheating we did didn’t really affect the outcome of the match."

Formula 1 drivers get a five second penalty for speeding in the pit lane. In 2007 McLaren were disqualified from the entire championship for spying on Ferrari technical data. That’s how it is, you don’t get to keep your winnings and just pay a token fine.

[saintwbu]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve consistently demonstrated that you’re totally unable to accept the severity of the ‘crime’ and what we’ve done. You don’t spy on another team’s training sessions so you can steal 10 yards at a throw in. You do it to completely subvert their game plan, formation, set pieces and starting XI. You do it to win a game, not a penalty.

If you win and get caught, you don’t get to then say, "ah well all the cheating we did didn’t really affect the outcome of the match."

Formula 1 drivers get a five second penalty for speeding in the pit lane. In 2007 McLaren were disqualified from the entire championship for spying on Ferrari technical data. That’s how it is, you don’t get to keep your winnings and just pay a token fine.

Premier League teams might beg to differ

[kitch]

1 hour ago, MarkSFC said:

Did he Cheat? Or did he simply break tbe rules? Or was it a combination of those things? 

As per regulation 127 observing another teams training session within 72 hoirs of a match with them is prohibited. Doing so outside of this time period is not specifically prohibited. 

Taking a throw-in and stepping over the touchline "breaks the rules". Is that cheating? Does that potentially have more of an impact than observation? 

Pulling someone's shirt is breaking the rules. Or is it cheating? 

Diving is breaking the rules. Is that cheating? Is that worse? 

Grabbing hold of opponents at a corner is breaking the rules. Is that cheating? 

Pulling soneone down very blatantly when they are through on goal is breaking the rules. Is it cheating? Normally it is regarded as so and a simple red card is normally advised. Is this worse? 

Most if not all managers and coaches, and players will break certain rules to attempt to gain an advantage on tbe field of play. Are any of them.worse than another? Is observing the worst of them all? 

Im not so sure it is. If the players can work with him then keep him. Hes the best we have had for quite a while. Other clubs will give us stick whoever the manager is so we may as well have one who has a good chance of getting us promoted. 

Good post.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

does not matter if it ridiculous. Lots of rules and laws are ridiculous, like eating cake and losing your job, but you know....

These same rules also state that the playoff final is contested by the two winners of the semi-finals.

[LegalEagle]

49/51 in favour of him staying

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve consistently demonstrated that you’re totally unable to accept the severity of the ‘crime’ and what we’ve done. You don’t spy on another team’s training sessions so you can steal 10 yards at a throw in. You do it to completely subvert their game plan, formation, set pieces and starting XI. You do it to win a game, not a penalty.

If you win and get caught, you don’t get to then say, "ah well all the cheating we did didn’t really affect the outcome of the match."

Formula 1 drivers get a five second penalty for speeding in the pit lane. In 2007 McLaren were disqualified from the entire championship for spying on Ferrari technical data. That’s how it is, you don’t get to keep your winnings and just pay a token fine.

Because spying is not a severe crime.

Edited 2 hours ago by Whitey Grandad

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Premier League teams might beg to differ

You're not allowed to compare with other leagues FFS! Keep up...

[johnnyboy]

As to the premier league doesn’t have the no spying 72 hours before rule , I read somewhere that they (premier league)have a kind of acting in good faith to other teams kind of thing which if needed could be used to cover the spying thing ?? 

[trousers]

Just now, johnnyboy said:

As to the premier league doesn’t have the no spying 72 hours before rule , I read somewhere that they (premier league)have a kind of acting in good faith to other teams kind of thing which if needed could be used to cover the spying thing ?? 

Yep, much the same rule as the EFL relied upon back in Bielsa's day...

[Baird of the land]

keep, unless FA decide we can’t. We’ve a good young manager and a club with a terrible record at appointing managers. Ripping it up and starting won’t lead anywhere good. This whole movement to self flagellate is weird to me.

 

[saint michael]

It is really a difficult one because it’s emotional with the cheating language being used. As a lot have stated rules are broken every match played and the right punishment is issued…usually ie yellow and red card, leading to bans.
 

The consequence of these rules being broken we’re not clearly spelt out and we’re then applied to be very very punative. That is now done. 
 

Clearly Tonda is not the only manager who can manage a team to success but the fact he has done exceptionally well makes it difficult to accept the loss, because we haven’t seen this success for a long time. The additional bit is the complete lack of trust in the ownership and board to then replace him with the manager capable of creating success, so better to keep the devil you know?

i think whether we would accept Tonda staying is immaterial as I’m sure the players wouldn’t. I’m sure their pain of being denied possible promotion and all that goes with it will make it impossible for him to stay anyway. 
 

it then makes it really hard to decide who could replace him and who we would want and trust. There in lies the issue for me. Tonda goes but who replaces…..

Edited 2 hours ago by saint michael

[sadoldgit]

33 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve consistently demonstrated that you’re totally unable to accept the severity of the ‘crime’ and what we’ve done. You don’t spy on another team’s training sessions so you can steal 10 yards at a throw in. You do it to completely subvert their game plan, formation, set pieces and starting XI. You do it to win a game, not a penalty.

If you win and get caught, you don’t get to then say, "ah well all the cheating we did didn’t really affect the outcome of the match."

Formula 1 drivers get a five second penalty for speeding in the pit lane. In 2007 McLaren were disqualified from the entire championship for spying on Ferrari technical data. That’s how it is, you don’t get to keep your winnings and just pay a token fine.

You constantly demonstrated that you have overblown the severity of the “crime” in the same way Steve Gibson did.

All of the things you mention are available to scrutinise on every match that the opposition play on video. Every throw in, every free kick, every corner, everything.

If it was such a heinous crime, as has been pointed out endlessly on here, it would be banned around the world. The only reason it is banned in the EFL is that Leeds did it and they had to do something in response. If Bielsa hadn’t done it we would not be having this conversation and SFC would probably be back in the EPL. If it then came to light that Eckert had been spying on the opposition in those circumstances, how would you react?

[saintant]

Not sure why so many want to pile more punishment on ourselves. We've suffered enough. If we can keep Eckert it would be mad not to. He's proved himself. The spying had absolutely no bearing on our results. Some players will leave - mostly those who are good enough to play at a higher level. Those who stay would be daft not to knuckle down and get behind Tonda. Lets not dismantle everything just because we're angry. It's a big call so let's do it with calm heads.

[DellBlockH]

53 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

@L1Minus10

Glen summed it up perfectly yesterday, any other business this is an issue, the club has been brought into disrepute because of his and potential others actions.

It should be a no brainer.

Tonda Eckhart shouldn’t be at the club anymore, his career here is over.

Ah, but what about Tonda Eckert?

[DellBlockH]

19 minutes ago, trousers said:

You're not allowed to compare with other leagues FFS! Keep up...

But we are allowed to compare with Formula 1, apparently. How about netball? Or rounders?

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

But we are allowed to compare with Formula 1, apparently. How about netball? Or rounders?

Or tiddlywinks. Are you allowed to watch the other player practising?

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, LaptopSaint said:

If it’s so important why isn’t it a rule in the premier league?

I think rule B15 will be used,similar to the way Leeds got done. If people think Premier league clubs can go round streaming opponents tactical shape, set piece drills and other stuff before matches, and not get any sanction,  they need to give their head a wobble. 
 

“In all matters and transactions relating to the League each Club, Official and Director shall behave towards each other Club, Official and Director and the League with the utmost good faith." 
 

 

[trousers]

I reckon the key factor with all this is going to be how the FA interpret and deal with the "bullying" allegations.

In the eyes of the FA, this is essentially what differentiates Eckert's case and Bielsa's (and, I repeat for the umpteenth time... no, it shouldn't matter to the FA that one of the governing body's they oversee have a 72 hour rule on spying and others don't...)

So if they sanction Eckert, it'll be due to the additional "bullying" aspect.

Regarding that, whilst not wishing to underplay bullying (it's an awful thing to partake in), I do wonder if there's a cultural element at play here. We deal with customers from many nations at my company and when you're dealing with Germans (and the Dutch, and South Africans, to name a few), they typically come across as very terse and even 'rude' in their conversations. But you get used to it because it's 'just the way they are' culturally. 

Could it be that Tonda's "bullying" is a misinterpretation of him being 'matter of fact' and un-nuanced (a 'lost in translation' kinda thing?) Maybe, maybe not, but it *could* be a mitigating factor, if only partially....

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

If we had been given a large fine along with a suspended points deduction but had been allowed to play in the final, would we even be having this discussion?

Dear god, what a Karen. 
 

So the punishment for cheating in a play off game worth £200 million is……. A fine, and a suspended points deduction. That’ll definitely stop anyone else from doing it 🤣🤣

Edited 2 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Did god, what a Karen. 
 

So the punishment for cheating in a play off game worth £200 million is……. A fine, and a suspended points deduction. That’ll definitely stop anyone else from doing it 🤣🤣

The punishment waa clearly way over the top. Far too much self flagelation on here. We've been excessively dealt with so ffs start fighting back instead of meekly submitting and ac epting more pile on.

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

The punishment waa clearly way over the top. Far too much self flagelation on here. We've been excessively dealt with so ffs start fighting back instead of meekly submitting and ac epting more pile on.

What does "fighting back" actually entail?