For those who think can/will finish higher than 8th this season

In games that could have gone either way. In our turn we have beaten teams that they have lost or only drawn. That is how a league works.

Yep. Supposing our next game was someone like Chelsea away and we lost. We'd still be averaging 1.9 points per game, which would have put us 5th last year. More to the point it would still leave us 2nd or 3rd in this years table depending on what City get up to.

At the moment we're playing better than most of the teams listed in the OP, potentially with the exception of Utd. Based on the first 9 games I think we have about as much quality as Everton and Spurs, although Liverpool and Utd have the edge on us in terms of individual talent.

Chelsea and City will run away with it by January, but in the battle for the remaining European places we're absolutely a contender at this stage. We will inevitably hit a rough patch (City, Arsenal and Utd in just over a week across Nov/Dec will be tricky) but if we can cut out the errors from last season and maintain our level of performance people would be daft to count us out of Top 6/8 discussions imo.

Wow, I sure hope there are no Stokies reading this thread! We annoyed them enough when we were third!

Are we the only set of fans that complain we're too high? Spurs and Liverpool complain they're too low. Perhaps Wetspam?

Who of last seasons top seven do you think we can/will finish above and as such, where do you think that we can/will finish this season?

 

I'm a glass half-empty fella I'm afraid so I don't believe that realistically we will higher than 8th, but I suppose its not impossible that we *could* finish above Everton.

 

I'm afraid I simply can't see us finishing above anyone in the big six once all is said and done/once we've had a tougher fixture list/our fair share of injuries etc.etc.

 

I start this thread because with all this talk about league position and soundbites like 'teams that finish outside the top six don't win matches 8-0' and so on (not just on here, but from optimistic neutrals as well), very rarely has anyone been specific enough to say exactly at who's expense our top-6/5/4 finish will be.

 

So perhaps the optimists amongst us could let us know!

We could finish above Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Everton and Tottenham...

Whether we do is another story.

I certainly expect us to have a good bash at top 4 on current showing - we have a very solid and well balanced side with really scary attacking play.

Only Chelsea look better than us at the moment, and city you have to assume will get it sorted.

Arsenal are poor all over the shop compared to their usual standards, its not happening at Tottenham, and Liverpool will be lucky to get top 6 the way they are playing. They haven't come close to replacing Suarez and are struggling big time with European commitments.

We have the best squad and team we have had in my living memory and a real golden opportunity to do something amazing this season.

Whether we do is yet to be seen. But we are definitely in the mix for a place as high as 3rd, along with all of the above mentioned teams

Same as last year it will be the depth that is the huge difference between us and the likes of Spurs or Liverpool.

If Forster gets injured we have Davis, if Lloris does then Spurs have Vorm and even if he was too they have Friedel who is competent.

If Pelle missed a few matches it would have a big impact on us too.

I think we could aim for 6th or 7th and give it a good go but top 4 is nigh on impossible.

Also worthing remembering we have lost both matches against the best two teams we have played.

Alan Green was asked this an hour ago on R4. He singled out saints as playing terrific football, but concluded that the top 4 and probably top 6 as well will be filled by the usual suspects.

Same as last year it will be the depth that is the huge difference between us and the likes of Spurs or Liverpool.

 

If Forster gets injured we have Davis, if Lloris does then Spurs have Vorm and even if he was too they have Friedel who is competent.

 

If Pelle missed a few matches it would have a big impact on us too.

 

I think we could aim for 6th or 7th and give it a good go but top 4 is nigh on impossible.

 

Also worthing remembering we have lost both matches against the best two teams we have played.

If Forster gets injured, don't we have the ability to recall Boruc?

Spurs and Liverpool are in Europe and playing more matches as a result. Their depth of squad is because of that. We have a much deeper squad than last season and generally could replace injured/suspended players with quality alternatives.

Also worth remembering that we played Liverpool as the first match and the team ran them very close but weren't fully integrated. We would probably beat them playing them now. We also deserved a point at least against Tottenham. Worth noting too that both of them have lost matches to teams below us, if you're going to use that as part of your argument.

If Forster gets injured, don't we have the ability to recall Boruc?

 

Spurs and Liverpool are in Europe and playing more matches as a result. Their depth of squad is because of that. We have a much deeper squad than last season and generally could replace injured/suspended players with quality alternatives.

 

Also worth remembering that we played Liverpool as the first match and the team ran them very close but weren't fully integrated. We would probably beat them playing them now. We also deserved a point at least against Tottenham. Worth noting too that both of them have lost matches to teams below us, if you're going to use that as part of your argument.

Whilst you are right, charlie is too.

We are much much stronger as a squad (and possibly first 11) then we were last year however we are still vulnerable if Pelle or even Tadic gets injured. Of course they are now more replaceable then they were last year, however Pellè is a big part of how we play and realistically long or j rod, as much as they'd do a job will not replicate his effectiveness.

Tadic is just irreplaceable, not really anything we can do about that tbh

Im not moaning btw, for a club our size its excellent to only have a real hole in one reservist. I can see us finishing top 6, aslong as injuries are fair to us.

Again, December is our acid test.

We haven't lost to the 2 best teams we have played - we have lost to the 2 biggest names that we have played. You can't live on name alone or clubs like Leeds would still be in the Premier league. In theory, and on form, the best team we have played is West Ham and we did alright against them

We are where we are, 2nd can we stay there yes, but very unlikely, so what is likely. Top 8 at least as likely as Chelsea winning the title, top 6 more likely than Liverpool finishing top 4, top 4 more likely than MU finishing top 2. The oft repeated words of caution is that we haven’t played any of the big boys yet (Scouse and NLY excepted), so what, you get the same 3 points for beating QPR as you do for beating Chelsea. If we were to loose to all the top 6 H&A (who are they by the way? Chelsea, MC and Arse + ????) that still leaves 78 points up for grabs which is 5th based on last season, win 2/3rds and that’s 52 points plus 8 draws and you’ve got 60, still not enough for 7th last season, however convert 2 of the 12 games against top 6 to wins and you have 66 or 7th. Alternatively based on last season where we got 56 points for W15, D 11, L12, if we turn 4 loses and 4 draws into wins its 72 or 5th, I really believe this is achievable but top 4 needs another season, which is great as the journey to PL dominance continues and always enjoy the journey as much as arriving at a destination.

We have played two of the big boys this season, and lost. Some of you need to get some perspective - we are a mid table side, so long as we win that league, all is well.

I was sorry to see this post, especially if Micky is a Saints' fan. Two defeats away from home to teams expected to be top half sides, and each by a single goal, suggests we might do the same to them at home.

Some fans naturally feel that expecting success makes the disappointment greater if it doesn't come. Others take the more logical approach, that our squad might have 12 or 13 good players but that injuries and suspensions will weaken the team as the season goes on, leading to more defeats. But there is another view, which is to be optimistic. There were at least 4 players on the bench against Stoke, whose presence in the starting XI would not weaken the team at all. In addition. there are 2 or 3 others with first team experience. We have two quality players out injured who are expected to return in the New Year and there is a transfer window in January if the squad needs to be enhanced. And of course, we may not suffer the spate of injuries that some people fear whereas our opponents are faced with the same issues and some of them may suffer more than Southampton. If we are still in the top 4 at Xmas there is no reason why we shouldn't be at the end of the season but as Koeman would say, every game is difficult and it is always the next match that matters. As fans, we should take it one game at a time and enjoy the ride.

Davis

Toby yoshida Gardos Targett

Wanyama

JWP Reed

Long Mayuka Rodriguez

With the exception of Toby filling in at RB, none of these started at the weekend. Sure the GK/ST looks dodgy but I would personally be happy with any of those players filling in for a couple of games and theres a certain amount of flexibility eg Long could cover up top, S.Davis on a wing. Barring an Arsenal style fitness meltdown, we would have to be quite unfortunate to lose enough players to seriously dent our teams quality. If we keep the squad healthy til January I have confidence that we can have a good go of finishing in the top 4.

Our worst result of the season has been the West Brom game, we can afford to lose away at the traditional big teams if we don't drop silly points against the lesser ones. To be frank, it shows how far we have come that we are disappointed at dropping points to our rivals at Anfield and White Hart Lane

I remember threads like this last season - we need to quell exceptions slightly at the moment, because when we do start slipping a bit (which we will) then people will start getting a bit OTT over how we're doing.

At the end of the day, we've taken advantage of a very favourable fixture list at the start of the season. The next 3 months will really test our strengths and personally I'm very interested to see how we do, because this is where we fell away last season - so this is the acid test for the new lot.

Squad wise I think we have more, not just in terms of numbers, but options and ways to alter things. Jay isn't far away either, so you've then got Long, Mane and Jay competing for a role in the attacking 3 - it's a very good situation to be in.

The only concerns I'd have would be in 2 area's. Pelle is so fundamental to the way we play and the way we defend from the front, so losing him for any period of time will be a significant loss for us as we'd have to change the way we play. Fraser Forster has also had an excellent season so far, he gives the defence confidence in front of him and is strong and assured when coming for the ball - I don't think we've got a GK who can come in and dominate his area as much as him, so we kind of need him to stay with us all season...

But compared to last season when we were an injury away from Jos and Guly, we're stronger in the defence and midfield area's. But as has been said, the next 3 months are the acid test, so I'm not going to get too carried away right now.....will wait and see where we are after Christmas. If we can pull off some big results against the big boys, whilst still maintaining our ability to see off the lesser teams....then we have an opportunity to do something amazing, because the core 11 will give any team a game.

If Forster gets injured we have Boruc. I'd say that's pretty good.

 

Pelle is a big loss if injured, but Long can play there, and we have Rodriguez to come back. With Mane and Tadic around too, that's a lot of goal threat.

 

Not many sides have someone like Wanyama or Cork on the bench, Reed is a great prospect and wouldn't let anyone down, JWP will come back. We have huge depth in the 3 CM positions.

 

CB is stronger than ever, Gardos has looked good. Yoshi has done ok and do many have amazing 4th choice CBs?

 

Targett is a bit unknown but highly rated, and TA can cover right back.

 

BUT, the key is avoiding an injury crisis. We can cover 1 or 2, but lose 3 or 4 and we would be severely weakened. I'm pretty hopeful, most our squad is a good age, all very fit and no-one obviously injury prone.

We don't have Boruc, he cannot be recalled from his loan - and he'll leave on a free in January I reckon.

GK's are Davis, Cropper and Forster (Gazzaniga seems to have been sniffed out by Dave Watson as a poor imitation of a GK...)

Before a ball was kicked I thought Chelsea and City would be miles ahead of the rest. It looks like that is how it will pan out

So for me it will be these clubs fighting for 3rd and 4th place or 3rd-6th place

Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man United, Everton, Saints and possibly even West Ham but they might struggle with injuries to key players though

Bring it on!

We were undone last year by our first level of depth - the guys who come in as soon as we have our first or second injury. Losing Boruc or Lovren or Schneiderlin or Wanyama (never mind two or three of them at the same time) created a huge drop-off. We're far better off this year - not just with better players but with players who can dovetail-in much better to a team that can play several ways.

 

We're still light years behind Man City and Chelsea when it comes to the second level of depth, but so are everyone else.

 

So, Top 2 is unattainable for me, but we are much more competitive in the 3-8 group than we were last year. I'm confident we can finish above Spurs - Pochettino's an excellent coach but he needs a certain kind of player and he doesn't have enough of them, or (probably) a big enough budget to buy them. Liverpool need consistent goals from someone other than Sturridge. Arsenal need a Schneiderlin but hopefully won't get one. United need to drastically strengthen their central D. But I think Everton will get better as the season progresses.

I still don't get this "we're miles better off in terms of squad depth than last season" argument. We are at almost exactly the same level, give or take the improved quality of one or two players, and we're still exactly as susceptible to a massive goalkeeping injury calamity as we were last year too.

Yes we have Gardos instead of Hooiveld, and Alderweireld is more positionally flexible than Lovren, but Gardos/Alderweireld are also covering the left back/right back options just as Clyne covered left back last year with Chambers sitting on the right, and Targett is no kind of replacement at the moment.

We've got Tadic instead of Lallana, Pelle instead of Lambert, and Mane and Long instead of Guly and Ramirez. Mayuka was seen as surplus to requirements last season and he's made the bench this year, and the likes of Reed and Gallagher (if he wasn't injured) are still bench players with not much experience at the moment. We've already lost Rodriguez for as long as we did last season.

We are SLIGHTLY better off than last season, because basically Long is better than Guly and Mane more effective than Ramirez, but we probably can't even field both of them at the same time. We needed to add players, not change them, and come late November and December, that'll be a tired squad playing against the top sides, and the same problems as last year will probably still be there. Where we might be luckier is not losing the keeper for months on end, or key players (eg Lovren, Lallana and to a lesser extent Ramirez) for long periods.

Lol we can definately finish above everyone except Chelsea and City. The negativity on here is comical sometimes!

If Forster gets injured, don't we have the ability to recall Boruc?

He's on loan until January according to the Saints and Bournemouth websites, but a 93 day loan (which is the most an emergency loan outside the transfer window is allowed to go for) would mean he returned on 21st December, as he went on 19th September. You can recall an emergency loan at any time once the first 28 days have passed, which they have. The League allows an extension to the 93 day in extenuating circumstances, but not sure what those would be. Loans are allowed until 4th Thursday in November though, so I wonder if they plan on temporarily returning him when they don't have any matches and then loaning him for another couple of months before that period is up or something.

The recall period for a "season long" loan is only open during the transfer window.

Lol we can definately finish above everyone except Chelsea and City. The negativity on here is comical sometimes!

Pretty negative yourself, we CAN definitely finish above Chelsea and City too.

We just won't.

I still don't get this "we're miles better off in terms of squad depth than last season" argument. We are at almost exactly the same level, give or take the improved quality of one or two players, and we're still exactly as susceptible to a massive goalkeeping injury calamity as we were last year too.

 

Yes we have Gardos instead of Hooiveld, and Alderweireld is more positionally flexible than Lovren, but Gardos/Alderweireld are also covering the left back/right back options just as Clyne covered left back last year with Chambers sitting on the right, and Targett is no kind of replacement at the moment.

 

We've got Tadic instead of Lallana, Pelle instead of Lambert, and Mane and Long instead of Guly and Ramirez. Mayuka was seen as surplus to requirements last season and he's made the bench this year, and the likes of Reed and Gallagher (if he wasn't injured) are still bench players with not much experience at the moment. We've already lost Rodriguez for as long as we did last season.

 

We are SLIGHTLY better off than last season, because basically Long is better than Guly and Mane more effective than Ramirez, but we probably can't even field both of them at the same time. We needed to add players, not change them, and come late November and December, that'll be a tired squad playing against the top sides, and the same problems as last year will probably still be there. Where we might be luckier is not losing the keeper for months on end, or key players (eg Lovren, Lallana and to a lesser extent Ramirez) for long periods.

This, good to see that someone else sees the situation like this as well. Because we have been doing very well, people have continued to overlook the elephant in the room, the same problem as last season. We shipped out was it 18 or even 19 players in the summer in total (think it was 18 before we found out about Ramirez on deadline day), yet people seem to think we have more depth to the squad. We do admittedly have slightly stronger backups than we had, and its good to see that we probably have 16 players capable of coming into the team without serious disruption. But we already have 3 injuries (J-Rod, JWP and Gallagher), a few more to key players, especially GK and we would be fecked again.

Just how does one squad measure 'strength in depth' serious question, if all sides have the same squad size, 25, then they have the same depth. So how do you measure the strength element and what are the SI units of measurement. One of the areas we do well is to include genuine fresh home grown talent in the squad nearly every year, this has a significant effect on the perception of squad strength. At the beginning of last year a number of areas R and L back had a youngsters were the as backups, in mid-field a young skate was included. On the face of it this weakened our squad, yet the reality was that not only were they up to the Job 2 of them are now playing for traditional top 4 sides, have they weakened their squads? I often read on here how a number of players at Chelski and MC and others are bench warmers, and yet these are the self same players who provide the 'strength in depth'. The truth is all teams are vulnerable to injuries, Scouse and Sturridge have demonstrated that, Chelsea Costa or MC Aguero any one, they would cope but they would be lesser teams. Add to this the additional demands of the CL for the big boys and who knows what little old Southampton could pull off.

This, good to see that someone else sees the situation like this as well. Because we have been doing very well, people have continued to overlook the elephant in the room, the same problem as last season. We shipped out was it 18 or even 19 players in the summer in total (think it was 18 before we found out about Ramirez on deadline day), yet people seem to think we have more depth to the squad. We do admittedly have slightly stronger backups than we had, and its good to see that we probably have 16 players capable of coming into the team without serious disruption. But we already have 3 injuries (J-Rod, JWP and Gallagher), a few more to key players, especially GK and we would be fecked again.

I was saying we needed to add 6 or 7 players to last season's squad back in January in order to challenge the top 6, we did that in the summer, but as we also sold many of the best 6 or 7, and even though Pelle is now showing that he's a definite upgrade on Lambert and that mobile target man I'd been banging on about for 18 months beforehand, there's still not much more depth than there was. It's the same solid 15ish (you can add JWP and Rodriguez but it's reasonable to expect you'll be running without maybe 2 of the first 18 at any one time) with about 3 that would probably weaken the side (eg Reed, Targett, Yoshida at this point).

Why worry about 'what if xxSaints Playerxx gets injured'? That is the same for any club.

Why go about 'we haven't played anyone good yet'. Ask Man City how easy 'away to West Ham' & 'home to Stoke' are. We are right up there because we are mopping up points from those type of games.

Plus somehow I don't think 'away to Southampton' is currently seen as an easy 3 points for ANY team in this league. It ain't.

Enjoy it people. We are actually pretty good ya know.

I don't think we will but the longer the leagues, so called, big teams fail to get their s hit together the more I might start to dream we can upset the apple cart. With the exception of Chelsea (and perhaps Citeh) all the other traditional top of table clubs are punching way below their weight right now. I think it will have more to do with their poor form than our good form as to weather we can sneak a top 6 finish this season.

Just how does one squad measure 'strength in depth' serious question, if all sides have the same squad size, 25, then they have the same depth. So how do you measure the strength element and what are the SI units of measurement. One of the areas we do well is to include genuine fresh home grown talent in the squad nearly every year, this has a significant effect on the perception of squad strength. At the beginning of last year a number of areas R and L back had a youngsters were the as backups, in mid-field a young skate was included. On the face of it this weakened our squad, yet the reality was that not only were they up to the Job 2 of them are now playing for traditional top 4 sides, have they weakened their squads? I often read on here how a number of players at Chelski and MC and others are bench warmers, and yet these are the self same players who provide the 'strength in depth'. The truth is all teams are vulnerable to injuries, Scouse and Sturridge have demonstrated that, Chelsea Costa or MC Aguero any one, they would cope but they would be lesser teams. Add to this the additional demands of the CL for the big boys and who knows what little old Southampton could pull off.

Not sure your point here, but Chambers was a starting quality RB who is now playing there for Arsenal pretty regularly, and our left back cover last season was Clyne - who still plays for Saints. So yes, losing Chambers weakened our squad. It would have been much weaker had we not covered the position with a couple of signings who prefer to play elsewhere.

We strengthened it back up with Gardos and Alderweireld providing CB/LB/RB cover, and shed Hooiveld, leaving us with either Clyne, Gardos or Alderweireld potentially playing LB, and a non-first choice CB starting there to cover the others moving.

Suggesting that as all sides have a 25 man squad firstly isn't true to begin with, and ignores the simple fact that not all of those hypothetical 25 are of the same standard across clubs anyway. Chelsea's back up keeper is Petr Cech, ours is Kelvin Davis. They and Man City have an entire squad of established internationals and winners, with cover in all positions that might be weaker than their preferred starting side, but is still stronger than their opponents' starting side.

All sides are vulnerable to injuries, not all sides have reserves better than their opponents' best players.

Why worry about 'what if xxSaints Playerxx gets injured'? That is the same for any club..

The likelihood of injury is the same, the effectiveness of the replacement isn't.

I think ther squad depth is generally much better bar two areas - GK and RB. Toby could play there if Clyne got a knock but we don't know if he'd be as good as he is at centre back. Not having a recall clause on Boruc is risky though, must have had a huge falling out with Ronald. Hopefully Kelvin stays fit in the background and Cropper has developed.

I think people are reading the Gazzaniga situation right though, Watson seems to have found him out. He's on a long contract though, like Mayuka although at least Mayuka is getting on the bench and looked decent in his cameo v a demoralised Sunderland. What do you think Saints will do? Loan him out to somewhere in non-league? He did well at Gillingham when they were L2 but has gone backwards since then. I'd offer him an early settlement on his contract and take the hit otherwise he'll become Forecast MKII. Do we sign another back-up in January?

I think ther squad depth is generally much better bar two areas - GK and RB. Toby could play there if Clyne got a knock but we don't know if he'd be as good as he is at centre back. Not having a recall clause on Boruc is risky though, must have had a huge falling out with Ronald. Hopefully Kelvin stays fit in the background and Cropper has developed.

 

I think people are reading the Gazzaniga situation right though, Watson seems to have found him out. He's on a long contract though, like Mayuka although at least Mayuka is getting on the bench and looked decent in his cameo v a demoralised Sunderland. What do you think Saints will do? Loan him out to somewhere in non-league? He did well at Gillingham when they were L2 but has gone backwards since then. I'd offer him an early settlement on his contract and take the hit otherwise he'll become Forecast MKII. Do we sign another back-up in January?

He seems to be playing pretty much every u21 game, perhaps they are monitoring him to decide what to do. Just one of those that didn't work out, a shame because under Adkins he was the preferred No.1 when people were calling Boruc Mr Blobby! Always remember thinking he'd be one for the future after that 2-0 win over newcastle. Oh well, we'll probably find out in Jan/Next summer

The likelihood of injury is the same, the effectiveness of the replacement isn't.

Our replacements are probably better in some cases.

Who replaces (the injury prone) Aguero for Man City? Do you think Dzeko or Jovetic are anywhere near his level? Course they ain't.

Key injuries have the potential to screw up any team. Not just Saints.

If Forster gets injured we have Boruc. I'd say that's pretty good.

 

Pelle is a big loss if injured, but Long can play there, and we have Rodriguez to come back. With Mane and Tadic around too, that's a lot of goal threat.

 

Not many sides have someone like Wanyama or Cork on the bench, Reed is a great prospect and wouldn't let anyone down, JWP will come back. We have huge depth in the 3 CM positions.

 

CB is stronger than ever, Gardos has looked good. Yoshi has done ok and do many have amazing 4th choice CBs?

 

Targett is a bit unknown but highly rated, and TA can cover right back.

 

BUT, the key is avoiding an injury crisis. We can cover 1 or 2, but lose 3 or 4 and we would be severely weakened. I'm pretty hopeful, most our squad is a good age, all very fit and no-one obviously injury prone.

I thought that we could get Boruc back if Forster is injured. Somebody says not, but The9 confirms what I would have expected, that we would be stupid to let a GK as good as Boruc go out on loan without a recall clause allowing us to get him back if Forster is injured.

In my opinion we would have achieved 6th last season if not for the key injuries to Boruc, Wanyama, Lovren and Rodriguez. We are doing pretty well without Rodriguez currently and he is a bonus when he returns. We have an abundance of talent in the central midfield and could potentially weather a period of absence of one, even two from Davies, Cork, Wanyama, Schneiderlin, although Schneiderlin would be the biggest loss. Ditto Tadic would be hard to replace for what he brings us. If we had the equivalent loss of Lovren this season, that would be relatively easy to cover now. But just as we have a couple of key players like Schneiderlin and Tadic, the other top teams also have their equivalents, who will be just as prone to injury, maybe more so, given their increased fixture burden.

Not sure your point here, but Chambers was a starting quality RB who is now playing there for Arsenal pretty regularly, and our left back cover last season was Clyne - who still plays for Saints. So yes, losing Chambers weakened our squad. It would have been much weaker had we not covered the position with a couple of signings who prefer to play elsewhere.

 

We strengthened it back up with Gardos and Alderweireld providing CB/LB/RB cover, and shed Hooiveld, leaving us with either Clyne, Gardos or Alderweireld potentially playing LB, and a non-first choice CB starting there to cover the others moving.

 

Suggesting that as all sides have a 25 man squad firstly isn't true to begin with, and ignores the simple fact that not all of those hypothetical 25 are of the same standard across clubs anyway. Chelsea's back up keeper is Petr Cech, ours is Kelvin Davis. They and Man City have an entire squad of established internationals and winners, with cover in all positions that might be weaker than their preferred starting side, but is still stronger than their opponents' starting side.

 

All sides are vulnerable to injuries, not all sides have reserves better than their opponents' best players.

Chambers was not starting quality , or at least was not perceived as such at the beginning of the season. I did not suggest all sides had a 25 man squad only that that was the limit, neither did I assume that 25 are of the same standard across clubs , the opposite in fact. My point was how do you judge the whole squads strength when size is essentially the same. It is easy to identify individual positions where the backup or alternative is as or nearly as good as the first choice, however no team has two first 11’s.

Well, agree with RK, one day at a time, signs are positive though.

I still don't get this "we're miles better off in terms of squad depth than last season" argument. We are at almost exactly the same level, give or take the improved quality of one or two players, and we're still exactly as susceptible to a massive goalkeeping injury calamity as we were last year too.

You're misrepresenting what I said, which concerned "our first level of depth - the guys who come in as soon as we have our first or second injury". I never said "we're miles better off in terms of squad depth than last season".

But we are far better off on that first level - not just because they're better players but also because none of them is called Hooiveld or Gazzaniga (or the fruitcake Osvaldo or the "flatter to deceive" Ramirez). We're doing nicely without Rodriguez and Ward-Prowse, which adds to the point I was trying to make.

Sure, we'd take a hit if any of our starters were to encounter injury problems, but not to the same degree as last year IMO. The first level of depth hurt us a lot last season - not so much our overall squad depth.

Beyond that first level of depth I agree that we're no better off, which is certainly a concern.

It would be nice to see a bit more of Targett, McQueen and Reed etc get some first team game time, so when called upon its more of a seamless transition than an adjustment to accommodate for an absent first teamer.... Or perhaps the coaching staff feel they can step up regardless?

Last season's used squad;

Fonte - still here

Lallana - proved Tadic

Shaw - match (improved offensively)

Lambert - improved Pelle

Lovren - improved Toby

Schneiderlin - still here

Boruc - improved Forster

JayRod - still here

Davis - still here

Clyne - still here

Cork - still here

Wanyama - still here

Chambers - not first 11, replaced by Toby - improvement

Ward prowse - still here

Osvaldo - replaced Long, improved for us

Gazzinger -still here

Yoshida - still here

Ramirez - improved Mane

Gallagher - still here

Jos - improved Gardos

Fox - improved Targett

Davis - still here

Guly - isgrove / mayuka

Reed - still here

Toby being international RB, Gardos replace Jos etc, much stronger back up in defence.

Picking a forward 4 from Tadic, pelle, mane, long, Davis, jwp, jayrod, isgrove, Gallagher, isgrove and Gallagher shows depth and variation in options.

cm - two from morgan, Wanyama, cork. Reed, jwp - plenty of depth.

This is the best strength in depth we have had

Arsenal's record against top four sides is pretty ordinary and they seem to do ok.

2 points a game over a season gets you up there. So 25 wins and a draw gives you up 10 games to play with you. So you can lose a few against the big boys.

I've never really understood this mentality (the OP's). It assumes that season's outcome is predetermined, as if the players shouldn't be trying for wins, just get us to a safe position and coast.

 

I'm not saying we're going to win the league, I'm not saying we'll be relegated, I'm just enjoying the ride.

Hm?

Not really. Obviously you try and win every game that you can.

I'm just saying that finishing higher than we did last season will entail us finishing ABOVE a team or two that we didn't last season. (This is of course disregarding the possibility that we manage to finish, say, above Everton but below West Ham for instance, which I think is a fair assumption)

So like I say, who can we finish above? Its all well and good saying that we think we can finish 4th or whatever but to say that we'll be able to finish above ALL of Liverpool/Everton/Spurs AND one of United/Arsenal suddenly makes that task look an awful lot more difficult.

I'm simply saying that if we finish higher than we did last season, it'll be at someone's expense; who's?

At the end of October last year, after the ninth game of the season we had one point less than we have this year with the OS saying it was Saints' best start in The Prem, which makes this year's start even better. The team that played the ninth game included Boruk, Shaw, Lovren, Lambert and Lallana, all now elsewhere as well as our currently injured pair of JRod and JWP. Only four of the team that beat Fulham in October 2013 played against Stoke on Saturday but as Nick G has illustrated, the replacements: Forster, Aldeweireld, Bertrand, Steven Davis, Jack Cork, Tadic, and Mané were either already in the first team squad or can be seen as improvements on those they replaced.

Last year, results took a dramatic dip in November and December. At the end of October 2013 we had P9 W5 D3 L1 = 18 points, whereas this year at the end of Oct we have P9 W6 D1 L2 = 19points. In 2013, up to 31 Dec, the next 10 games produced P10 W2 D3 L5 = 9 points. It is because I simply don't believe that under Koeman, this year's team will produce such poor results over the next 10 games, as Pochettino's team did last year, that I feel we can stay in contention for a top 4 spot. Like this year, November and December last year did include some difficult games but last year's team lost two of the less difficult against Sunderland and Aston Villa.

In this so-called difficult spell this year, only 4 of the 10 games would you pick out as being any harder than what we have had so far, Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea but even 3 of those games are at home. Also, our opponents at the top of the table can't all pick up maximum points as in several games they play each other. I see all of this as reasons for optimism and if we are still in the top 4 at the halfway point of the season, then why not at the season's end?

Everton, spurs, liverpool and united all look shaky enough.

Its all well and good saying that we think we can finish 4th or whatever but to say that we'll be able to finish above ALL of Liverpool/Everton/Spurs AND one of United/Arsenal suddenly makes that task look an awful lot more difficult.

lol no it doesn't, it seems the same difficulty! Why are you so scared of Liverpool/Everton/Spurs AND one of United/Arsenal? Koeman eats Liverpool/Everton/Spurs AND one of United/Arsenal for breakfast!

There are many factors at play, and although I agree that potential injuries are a worry, it's the existing problems that need to be addressed. If J-rod comes back fit and firing, I think that we can solidify our top 4 place.

If J-rod comes back a shadow of himself or suffers a relapse, and we sign Bony, I think we can solidify our top 4 place.

If we sign Borini instead of Bony, I think we can cement a 6th-8th place finish.

It will be interesting to see if one of JWP/Reed/Isgrove will make the step up. A real push from any of them could make a real difference to our overall strength. Or they could prove to be Kevin Gibbens/Steve Basham Flash-in-the-pans.

There are many factors at play, and although I agree that potential injuries are a worry, it's the existing problems that need to be addressed. If J-rod comes back fit and firing, I think that we can solidify our top 4 place.

 

If J-rod comes back a shadow of himself or suffers a relapse, and we sign Bony, I think we can solidify our top 4 place.

 

If we sign Borini instead of Bony, I think we can cement a 6th-8th place finish.

 

It will be interesting to see if one of JWP/Reed/Isgrove will make the step up. A real push from any of them could make a real difference to our overall strength. Or they could prove to be Kevin Gibbens/Steve Basham Flash-in-the-pans.

Here is some things i think might **** us up:

• New import bros might hit a wall in winter cos not-accustomed to physical demands or whatever, Sam Allardyce was saying this bout his bros too.
  
• New Manager Bounce effect, and we will lose this at some point unless we sack Koeman + get new manager
  
• Bros might be under-estimating us a bit upto now, and also not adjusted to our new Tactics. But cat is out of bag!
  

Not sure we should worry too much about the bros as Wanyama came here from from Scotland and Mané from Austria. Even Holland has quite cold winters. Sounds like Big Sam might be barking up the wrong tree, or just barking....

It is true that St James' Park in January might be a bit on the chilly side but it is the same for both teams and Newcastle have to play there ever other week. When I played amateur football in mid-winter I managed to keep warm by running around and that was without stands keeping the wind off, 30,000 bodies surrounding the touchline and under-soil heating. I reckon they will cope.

Here is some things i think might **** us up:

 

• New import bros might hit a wall in winter cos not-accustomed to physical demands or whatever, Sam Allardyce was saying this bout his bros too.
  
• New Manager Bounce effect, and we will lose this at some point unless we sack Koeman + get new manager
  
• Bros might be under-estimating us a bit upto now, and also not adjusted to our new Tactics. But cat is out of bag!
  

Bear, why don't you just join Lawrenson giving handies under the desk to savage while he snipes from the sidelines. It's clear you share their London-Centric 'Big club' Bias.

All of your hypothetical 'issues' are addressed subliminally by Les Reed in the #wemarchon video, if you have the eyes to see. The 'Southampton way' has the following contingencies to counter your problems.

• A boat load of Scandi players, who sh*t ice for breakfast and make walls from it. This would contradict RK's comments about "Don't make ****" except...
  
• A fortnightly 'Sack up and ship out' policy, where an increasingly Psychopathic influx of recruits keep the new manager effect in place, and rule, albeit briefly, through sheer terror, on a fortnightly basis.
  
• All the new Scandi players, and the *New* Managers will wear Luchador masks, and their squad number will be determined by the number of umlauts in their name, so the opposition will have no advance warning of who they are or where they play.
  

Honestly Bear, if you spent more money on half season tickets, and less on replacing a ****y mattress after each game, we might have been able to give Hans Hofstetter something more than a reconditioned spoon, and a munch on a Kit-Kat as a going away present.

West Ham could do very well this season. They are only 3 points behind us and have already beat Liverpool and Man City. While we will soon be in a run of 9 fixtures, 7 against the teams that qualified for Europe (+ Man U) they now have a run of games where they will only play one of last season's top 4 between now and Boxing Day,

everyone keeps going on about the two games we lost against spurs and Liverpool. ignoring that, we have been consistently getting three points from the so called 'smaller teams' while Liverpool and spurs are dropping points to wham and Newcastle so doesn't that even out??

We have played two of the big boys this season, and lost. Some of you need to get some perspective - we are a mid table side, so long as we win that league, all is well.

This is not correct. We have played two top six sides - both away - and we have won both games. As ever our problems come when we are up against the lesser lights. One of our away defeats was against the hapless side currently occupying 11th place.

In order from most likely to least: Everton, Tottenham, Liverpool, Man Utd.

 

Any of them could stutter (already are, in fact) and while we would do very well to take full advantage and finish above them in 7th or 6th, it's absolutely possible.

This.

What's noteworthy is whilst we generally look very solid at the back these 4 teams have not.

Everton are showing their age I think at the back and Stones out for a while is a big miss.

Utds defensive problems are well known and well can't see it being solved until January even then they probably like Arsenal need a world class defensive midfielder and centre back at the least. (strikes me as very odd how West Ham managed to get a class DM in Song on loan when these big teams lack in this very area).

Liverpool lack leadership at the back, Lovren looks half the player we sold and without them threatening as much up front without Suarez and the injuries to Sturridge their faulty defense is under more pressure.

Spurs generally just look like a team strangers to me, bought far too many but I doubt if you asked 10 different Spurs fans they would tell you the same team.

Of course it's all early days but these 4, plus Arsenal not solving their midfield/defensive issues and Man City clearly not the team they should be.

We are just on a crest of a wave but our team at the moment seems good going forward and well balanced at the back. A few injuries and that could change but at the moment we and West Ham are the ones that are pushing the big boys and would you really be surprised on current form if one of those 4/5 mentioned dropped out of the top 7?

It'll be interesting to see the mentality of the club if we're still in and around the top 4 come January. Do they take a risk and invest some more money to push us on, and really go for it? That's when we'll find out what the real aims are in my opinion.

In terms of squad depth I think we're OK. Like for like backups for Clyne (Trippier?) and Pelle in Jan will make us look pretty solid.