Burnley 1 Saints 1 - Match & Reactions Thread

Of course they would and if they did its because they haven't watched them play enough.

 

Anyone who doesn't realise that, with the exception of Bertrand and Lemina, our squad is ****ing average is deluded.

Deluded just about sums Foggy up.

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In all fairness you should have mentioned that McCarthy handled outside the box but maybe that wasn’t shown on MOTD ?

I am overseas so didn’t see the highlights!

Ah, forgot that. It was shown.

McCarthy didn't handle outside the box, imo - it was very close, though. He dropped it just level with the edge, as far as I could tell. Would've been harsh to give it against him.

However... MotD did show that the Burnley forward tried to kick the ball out of McCarthy's hands at the time (which is why he dropped it), so would've been a free kick to Saints. I was surprised it wasn't given.

Ah, forgot that. It was shown.

 

McCarthy didn't handle outside the box, imo - it was very close, though. He dropped it just level with the edge, as far as I could tell. Would've been harsh to give it against him.

 

However... MotD did show that the Burnley forward tried to kick the ball out of McCarthy's hands at the time (which is why he dropped it), so would've been a free kick to Saints. I was surprised it wasn't given.

Wasn’t judging the incident per se, just thought that it was worth adding to your list of pertinent points !

Wasn’t judging the incident per se, just thought that it was worth adding to your list of pertinent points !

You're quite right - I'd meant to put it in, but forgot in my haste to moan about Dyche . Thanks for the reminder.

Of course they would and if they did its because they haven't watched them play enough.

 

Anyone who doesn't realise that, with the exception of Bertrand and Lemina, our squad is ****ing average is deluded.

You are deluded! Give me a list of players from West Brom, Swansea, Stoke etc that you would rather see in a Saints shirt to replace that we already have?? I will tell you, NO ONE

You are deluded! Give me a list of players from West Brom, Swansea, Stoke etc that you would rather see in a Saints shirt to replace that we already have?? I will tell you, NO ONE

Shapiri, Joe Allen, Ndiaye.

Dawson,

That's about it for me.

Shapiri, Joe Allen, Ndiaye.

 

Dawson,

 

That's about it for me.

Go and support Stoke then. You seem to love their players more than ours

Go and support Stoke then. You seem to love their players more than ours

Perhaps I should have read previous posts before answering what I thought was a simple question.

Btw, I don't love any footballers, in fact I dislike a big majority.

Perhaps I should have read previous posts before answering what I thought was a simple question.

 

Btw, I don't love any footballers, in fact I dislike a big majority.

Sorry Saint Billy. I'm just in a bad mood with the current state of our club, so bloody frustrating with this idiot in charge. Or should I say 'idiots'

Sorry Saint Billy. I'm just in a bad mood with the current state of our club, so bloody frustrating with this idiot in charge. Or should I say 'idiots'

No worries, I'm feeling it too.

I think most of us are in a filthy mood, because this mess was so bloody avoidable and the result of so many ****ing stupid decisions.

In five+ years in charge, Dyche has very very rarely brought an extra defender on to hold on to what he's got. Sometimes he's brought an extra defender to play as a sort of stopping midfielder, but he doesn't go flat back five. Anyway, we didn't have any centre halves on the bench - he could have brought on a third full back, but that would be a strange sort of tactic!

He has been known to bring on an extra forward and switch to 4-4-2 if he thinks the opponents are putting us under too much pressure. Evidently he didn't think that applied yesterday. There wasn't a lot form Southampton after the shot which Pope tipped onto the post, IMO. It took a helpful intervention by the ref to put us off our stride and give you the chance to score - if that hadn't happened and it had finished 1-0, it would have been just like so many other home games where those tactics have worked. Barnes is a very good forward for holding the ball up and stopping the opposition playing, better than Vokes for that, and Wood hasn't played for weeks; NKoudou is more an attacking winger than a defensive winger, and Marney (midfield) hasn't played for over a year. Obviously bringing on no subs didn't work, but I don't think it wasn't a wrong tactic.

However you look at it, Dyche isn't clueless.

Dyche isn't clueless.

Of course they would and if they did its because they haven't watched them play enough.

 

Anyone who doesn't realise that, with the exception of Bertrand and Lemina, our squad is ****ing average is deluded.

This. A thousand times this.

In five+ years in charge, Dyche has very very rarely brought an extra defender on to hold on to what he's got. Sometimes he's brought an extra defender to play as a sort of stopping midfielder, but he doesn't go flat back five. Anyway, we didn't have any centre halves on the bench - he could have brought on a third full back, but that would be a strange sort of tactic!

 

He has been known to bring on an extra forward and switch to 4-4-2 if he thinks the opponents are putting us under too much pressure. Evidently he didn't think that applied yesterday. There wasn't a lot form Southampton after the shot which Pope tipped onto the post, IMO. It took a helpful intervention by the ref to put us off our stride and give you the chance to score - if that hadn't happened and it had finished 1-0, it would have been just like so many other home games where those tactics have worked. Barnes is a very good forward for holding the ball up and stopping the opposition playing, better than Vokes for that, and Wood hasn't played for weeks; NKoudou is more an attacking winger than a defensive winger, and Marney (midfield) hasn't played for over a year. Obviously bringing on no subs didn't work, but I don't think it wasn't a wrong tactic.

 

However you look at it, Dyche isn't clueless.

 

Dyche isn't clueless.

Thanks for giving us your point of view.

The ref didn’t do anything, he just stood still where he was which is what he should do. You can’t accuse him of doing something because he didn’t do anything. A ref is like a wooden post in the middle of the field. It’s up to the players to play around him.

A helpful but accidental intervention. He didn't do anything, but he still intervened. I'm not blaming him - well I am, but I don't think he was at fault. It was just sod's law - a law that hasn't done us any favours in the last few minutes this season.

A helpful but accidental intervention. He didn't do anything, but he still intervened. I'm not blaming him - well I am, but I don't think he was at fault. It was just sod's law - a law that hasn't done us any favours in the last few minutes this season.

I think you need to look up the meaning of ‘intervene’. It’s not as though he rugby-tackled anybody. It was a bright day, surely the players can see a big lump in the middle of the pitch?

Anyway, how can you blame somebody who was not at fault?

A helpful but accidental intervention. He didn't do anything, but he still intervened. I'm not blaming him - well I am, but I don't think he was at fault. It was just sod's law - a law that hasn't done us any favours in the last few minutes this season.

Yeah, the ref didn't DO anything to intervene (it wasn't like that ref that tripped the player up and then sent him off), the Burnley player turned and almost ran into him. He couldn't get out of the way. Anyway, that was 30 seconds before the goal. A lot happened after that.

Has anyone else taken issue with Barnes charging our keeper and then handling the ball into the goal. How did that stand? After the Decoure (Watford) handball goal, we seem to be the team getting the rough end of the stick.

However, I like Burnley, good to see a team of low value assets working so well and getting results. And we'd like Jack Cork back, and the Southampton born Sam Vokes as well please..

A helpful but accidental intervention. He didn't do anything, but he still intervened. I'm not blaming him - well I am, but I don't think he was at fault. It was just sod's law - a law that hasn't done us any favours in the last few minutes this season.

Dyche was highly critical of the ref in his after match comments. For some reason he left off his list of failings that the ref failed to spot Barnes handled the ball into the net for Burnley’s “goal”.

I'm a football fan. You want me to be fair and rational as well? I can't do both.

OED definition 1.1 of intervene: "(of an event or circumstance) occur as a delay or obstacle to something being done.

‘Christmas intervened and the investigation was suspended’ "

The referee occurred as an obstacle to Burnley defending properly!

The referee literally stood still, the Burnley player ran into him.

And, irrespective of that, they simply didn’t defend well enough at that moment.

For a team that prides themselves on grit, steel and determination, what a bunch of whingers.

A helpful but accidental intervention. He didn't do anything, but he still intervened. I'm not blaming him - well I am, but I don't think he was at fault. It was just sod's law - a law that hasn't done us any favours in the last few minutes this season.

You don’t need to complain to us about Sod’s law. We virtually invented it

Had a goal punched in against us this season costing us 2pt (Watford). Last minute goals to Arsenal and City. Goal ruled out in last year’s league cup final that VAR would have given us this year. The list goes on but I’m boring you and depressing myself so I’ll stop.

In five+ years in charge, Dyche has very very rarely brought an extra defender on to hold on to what he's got. Sometimes he's brought an extra defender to play as a sort of stopping midfielder, but he doesn't go flat back five. Anyway, we didn't have any centre halves on the bench - he could have brought on a third full back, but that would be a strange sort of tactic!

 

He has been known to bring on an extra forward and switch to 4-4-2 if he thinks the opponents are putting us under too much pressure. Evidently he didn't think that applied yesterday. There wasn't a lot form Southampton after the shot which Pope tipped onto the post, IMO. It took a helpful intervention by the ref to put us off our stride and give you the chance to score - if that hadn't happened and it had finished 1-0, it would have been just like so many other home games where those tactics have worked. Barnes is a very good forward for holding the ball up and stopping the opposition playing, better than Vokes for that, and Wood hasn't played for weeks; NKoudou is more an attacking winger than a defensive winger, and Marney (midfield) hasn't played for over a year. Obviously bringing on no subs didn't work, but I don't think it wasn't a wrong tactic.

 

However you look at it, Dyche isn't clueless.

 

Dyche isn't clueless.

Neither is our manager. Actually he's even better. Honest. Care to swap?

I’m not fussed about the referee getting in the way for the tying goal. After that, it still required Redmond to do a good job carrying the ball to the penalty area (he looks decent in a central role), distribute it to Sims, who played a lofted ball to Carrillo at the far post, who played it (a little behind) to Gabbiadini, who came back to the ball and finished after getting tangled with Long. There were many opportunities for Burnley to intervene after the ref got in the way.

After Decoure, I don’t think we need to apologize for strokes of good fortune that occur in our favour this season.

It appears to be lost on some that Sims was already getting ready to come on before they scored, meaning MP had already opted for a change.

He would have come on if that ball had have gone out of play no matter what. Unfortunately it went in the net instead.

Still very much in the Pellegrino out camp obviously, but it's clear he's going nowhere until the end of the season.

If then.

After Decoure, I don’t think we need to apologize for strokes of good fortune that occur in our favour this season.

Quite. A phrase often used in football is “these-things-even-themselves-out-over-a-season” (though I’ve never seen any stats to back it up). It was about time we got a lucky break. Of course, the referee providing an assist is way, way different from Decoure’s deliberate cheating but we must take what crumbs come our way.

it's clear he's going nowhere until the end of the season.

 

If then.

Season tickets are going to fly off the shelves.

Quite. A phrase often used in football is “these-things-even-themselves-out-over-a-season” (though I’ve never seen any stats to back it up). It was about time we got a lucky break. Of course, the referee providing an assist is way, way different from Decoure’s deliberate cheating but we must take what crumbs come our way.

What’s everyone’s obsession with 4-4-2 it’s like everyone has got Merringtonittis. Our issue isn’t not playing 2 up front it’s zero goals and support from the 3 behind the 1. Tadic, Redmond, Boufal, Davo & JWP goal scoring record is woeful & their chances created are just as bad. They also rarely get behind the 1 & break from midfield. It worked yesterday because we had nothing to lose and were getting men into the box, you can get just as many men into the box with a 4-2-3-1 as was proved when we played similar systems under previous managers. If we play a 4-4-2 with these players and this manager, we will lose control of the ball, get out numbered in the centre of midfield and will leave our top 2 isolated up front. One change could be Gabbi in the 10, but I’m not sure how he’d do in that system, another way could be a diamond in midfield, although the forum experts derided that last season.

 

 

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Compare and contrast that with Pellegrino's 451. It is relentlessly defensive because it treasures possession over everything else. Possession football is all good but it is inherently reliant on a level of speed and technique with the ball that we simply don't have to create space. As a result there is very little pressure put on the opposition defense of any kind, the 'one up top' is hopelessly isolated so that, regardless of what style of forward they are, the majority of the time they are up against 3 of the 4 defenders. When we play wide forwards (primarily Redmond), they don't behave as such, compressing rather than stretching the backline by cutting in and back across the middle of the pitch.

I'm not sure 442 is (necessarily) 'the answer' because, given the manager's approach, I think we'd just end up with two isolated forwards instead of one. But i suppose the logic is that if we played two attacking players with complementary characteristics, it would give them half a chance of at least troubling the opposition backline.

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throw in the ref not blowing up when McCarthy handled the ball outside the box

Did he? What makes you think that?

The 'problem' with 451 is that it can be either very aggressive or very defensive, depending on what your forward midfielders do. When we played 451 under Poch it was arguably closer to a 433. Mane was never truly a midfielder, nor was Rodriguez, they were wide forwards. We looked to turn the ball over high up the pitch and use speed of movement (both players and the ball) to overload where the other team looked defensively weak. Both Lambert and Pelle were just as effective feeding the wide forwards on the overlap as they were converting chances as the 'point of the spear'.

 

Compare and contrast that with Pellegrino's 451. It is relentlessly defensive because it treasures possession over everything else. Possession football is all good but it is inherently reliant on a level of speed and technique with the ball that we simply don't have to create space. As a result there is very little pressure put on the opposition defense of any kind, the 'one up top' is hopelessly isolated so that, regardless of what style of forward they are, the majority of the time they are up against 3 of the 4 defenders. When we play wide forwards (primarily Redmond), they don't behave as such, compressing rather than stretching the backline by cutting in and back across the middle of the pitch.

 

I'm not sure 442 is (necessarily) 'the answer' because, given the manager's approach, I think we'd just end up with two isolated forwards instead of one. But i suppose the logic is that if we played two attacking players with complementary characteristics, it would give them half a chance of at least troubling the opposition backline.

 

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And the answer is exactly as you say. When we were doing well, the three behind the striker always included one, or usually two players who could be considered strikers in their own right - Do Prado, Lallana, Mané, Rodriguez, etc.

And they were all capable of rotating across the three, and even as striker. When Ricky was playing, he often drifted out to the wing to pull the opposition around and open up central space for someone else.

It's my view that all our current AMs lack the flexibility and all-round game to do that. Boufal and Redmond both tend to cut in, can do something effective with the ball but then don't connect with the striker. Tadic isn't a finisher. JWP has shown he can finish and has got into scoring positions this season, but his prime function is ball retention, not opening up defences.

In the last few minutes on Saturday I finally became hopeful that Carrillo and Sims can fill the roles of creative, goal scoring attacking MF. Sims does seem to have the all-round game - pace, guile and he can shoot. I know we bought Carrillo as a striker, but I'm wondering if he can be more effective behind Austin or Gabbiadini. And I think another key player we need to develop into this role is Hesketh. His career seemed suddenly to stall, but I'm still hopeful that he can be a goal scoring 10.

It's a shame that we're not comfortably mid table. Whilst we're fighting relegation there's an obvious nervousness about trying something different, but I'm running out of patience with Redmond, Tadic and Boufal.

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Did he? What makes you think that?

think what?

think what?

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think what?

That McCarthy had handled outside the box.The only eveidence that we have (TV) apears to show that he took his hands away at the last moment.

Looked pretty clear that he handled outside the box to me.

That McCarthy had handled outside the box.The only eveidence that we have (TV) apears to show that he took his hands away at the last moment.

the Canadian stream clearly show him handling the ball well outside the box6

Agreed, Clear as daylight.

the Canadian stream clearly show him handling the ball well outside the box6

If the ref, from his position, is not sure then he can't give it. It doesn't matter what Canadian TV showed.

Looked pretty clear that he handled outside the box to me.

His hands were a couple of inches away from the ball at the time the ball went outside the box.

Agreed, Clear as daylight.

Photo? Video?

There is now way that you can be certain from TV. On MOTD you could see that his hands were releasing the ball.

If the ref, from his position, is not sure then he can't give it. It doesn't matter what Canadian TV showed.

All the p1ssing and moaning about the contentious Burnley goal (I personally didn’t see much wrong with it) doesn’t change the fact that this result won’t singularly relegate us - only add to the succession of inept performances and sh1te results that preceded it.

I think even Burnley fans would admit they’re a bit fragile at the moment and this was a perfect opportunity to have a real go... but alas, not with this pr1ck in charge

All the p1ssing and moaning about the contentious Burnley goal (I personally didn’t see much wrong with it) doesn’t change the fact that this result won’t singularly relegate us - only add to the succession of inept performances and sh1te results that preceded it.

 

I think even Burnley fans would admit they’re a bit fragile at the moment and this was a perfect opportunity to have a real go... but alas, not with this pr1ck in charge

I agree. I've just wasted some more of my time by looking at the MOTD 'highlights' and from what little you can see if looks as if Barnes's goal cones off the point of his shoulder, of the very top of his sleeve and above the flesh. Poor goalkeeping in my opinion but McCarthy can't be criticised these days.

As for his 'handling outside the box' again, not clear or obvious . If you accept that he has both hands on the ball then the attempt to kick the ball is a foul on the goalkeeper.

All minor points in a long season.

All the p1ssing and moaning about the contentious Burnley goal (I personally didn’t see much wrong with it) doesn’t change the fact that this result won’t singularly relegate us - only add to the succession of inept performances and sh1te results that preceded it.

 

I think even Burnley fans would admit they’re a bit fragile at the moment and this was a perfect opportunity to have a real go... but alas, not with this pr1ck in charge

Burnley's last home result on Feb 3rd was 1-1 with Man City whic IMHO shows they're a pretty tough nut to crack at home

they were there for the taking by anyone with some attacking gumption and balls. we would have won with just about any other manager on earth

Looked pretty clear that he handled outside the box to me.

He had two hands on the ball, and was fouled by the Burnley player tbf. Its irrelevant after that.

they were there for the taking by anyone with some attacking gumption and balls. we would have won with just about any other manager on earth

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Any idea how many Saints fans were at the game?.

Understand the reasons for people not going but the away end looked very sparsely occupied on the TV

Any idea how many Saints fans were at the game?.

 

Understand the reasons for people not going but the away end looked very sparsely occupied on the TV

It always does (unless you fill whole allocation, which when it's a standard trip to Burnley, you won't) as they pack you in at the back of the stand.

It always does (unless you fill whole allocation, which when it's a standard trip to Burnley, you won't) as they pack you in at the back of the stand.

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