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Thread: Saints 1-2 Burnley - Reaction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I don't normally post instant reactions, but here goes.

    I understand why Vestergaard started, but it was wrong. I don't believe his height makes him a better counter to high balls than Bednarek, who is better in every aspect of defending. Hope the lesson has been learned. Would say Vestergaard was a major culprit for the second goal.

    KWP had to be given a chance and was mainly decent. But shouldn't he have been covering the near post for the goal from the corner? Edit: now seen the replay and Ings certainly got it wrong. JWP is better, but we need him in midfield too. And, btw, thought he had an excellent game.

    Losing first Redmond, then Boufal (who was having one of his best games) was critical.

    Face it, playing creative football in those conditions is a nightmare, and defending balls pumped up into the wind a battle. Why the f*** do we always play Burnley in a rain-sodden gale? I'm convinced that on a dry, warm, calm day we would tear them apart.

    We had good performances today. Armstrong was always looking for the killer pass and was so close several times. Ings was great. Not Long's best game and maybe Obafemi earlier would have been good. Djenepo didn't have Boufal's urgency or commitment. Stephens good on very difficult conditions. Hojbjerg and Bertrand ok.

    Ref was poor. There were plenty of fouls that got nothing and cards weren't given. I thought the VAR pen was nailed-on.

    But the real winner was the weather. For next week we need it dry and calm, Ralph to forget the Vestergaard experiment, Redmond and/or Boufal to recover and KWP to have learned from today

    Bad day, but mainly the weather won. Conditions like today are a real leveller. We are way better than Burnley. If we get another day like today, we need to do a Man City and identify a crowd safety issue and get the game postponed to a decent day.

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    There's a little bit of "Pollyanna" in your "instant reactions". Yes, the conditions were a leveller - yet intensity and commitment are possible and necessary in all conditions and SFC were short on both, particularly in the second half. Armstrong excellent? JWP excellent? I don't think so - I also don't think we would "tear them them apart on a dry day". It's been quite a while since the side tore any team apart.

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    Vestergard really needs to consider going back to acting and giving up football. I thought he did a pretty good job playing Jaws in the James Bond movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harvey View Post
    I think when Djenepo first came here he looked raw but effective, but he's now been 'Saints' trained to be raw but ineffective.
    Didn't hardly take a player on that I can remember ,?

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    I could sort of see where Ralph was coming from starting Vest but as soon as Wood went off & witnessing the countless mistakes, Ralph should have reverted back to Bednerak at half time.

    Cant see why Stephen's is getting a hard time on here...thought he was one of the better players today.

    Djenpo was a disgrace. Played the easy ball at every opportunity.

    What is wrong with Redmond?

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    Quote Originally Posted by austsaint View Post
    There's a little bit of "Pollyanna" in your "instant reactions". Yes, the conditions were a leveller - yet intensity and commitment are possible and necessary in all conditions and SFC were short on both, particularly in the second half. Armstrong excellent? JWP excellent? I don't think so - I also don't think we would "tear them them apart on a dry day". It's been quite a while since the side tore any team apart.
    We recently beat Leicester, Palace and Spurs playing good football.

    I simply don't agree with your comments about intensity and commitment. Don't think there was anyone in the team who didn't give everything. And your assessment of Armstrong and JWP is simply bizarre.

    And yes, I do always look for the positives. I can't see any point in constantly running down individual players and the team as a whole. But if you read my posts regularly, you'll see I don't avoid criticism if I think it's warranted - playing Vestergaard today being an example.

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    Last edited by Shroppie; 15-02-2020 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warsash saint View Post
    I could sort of see where Ralph was coming from starting Vest but as soon as Wood went off & witnessing the countless mistakes, Ralph should have reverted back to Bednerak at half time.

    Cant see why Stephen's is getting a hard time on here...thought he was one of the better players today.

    Djenpo was a disgrace. Played the easy ball at every opportunity.

    What is wrong with Redmond?
    Don't know what Redmond has done but someone posted that he'll be out a month or two, do nothing minor. Hope Boufal isn't bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warsash saint View Post
    I could sort of see where Ralph was coming from starting Vest but as soon as Wood went off & witnessing the countless mistakes, Ralph should have reverted back to Bednerak at half time.

    Cant see why Stephen's is getting a hard time on here...thought he was one of the better players today.

    Djenpo was a disgrace. Played the easy ball at every opportunity.

    What is wrong with Redmond?
    Hojberg has made a living off this

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    Vester**** took being **** to a new level
    Hojturd wasn’t far behind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    We recently beat Leicester, Palace and Spurs playing good football.

    I simply don't agree with your comments about intensity and commitment. Don't think there was anyone in the team who didn't give everything. And your assessment of Armstrong and JWP is simply bizarre.

    And yes, I do always look for the positives. I can't see any point in constantly running down individual players and the team as a whole. But if you read my posts regularly, you'll see I don't avoid criticism if I think it's warranted - playing Vestergaard today being an example.

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    It's not bizarre to say Armstrong was sloppy and ineffective - nor bizarre to offer that JWP, though steady, did not have an excellent game. We did play very good Football in beating Leicester, Palace and Spurs...but we didn't "tear them apart"!

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy Saint View Post
    Bit of a strange game - there were moments when the game sort of stopped but carried on. The first goal viewed from the far end looked really weird as not only we searingly stopped but Burnley did likewise except one person.
    We did look like a team that had set themselves in their heads for the break after Liverpool but then found themselves having to play at Spurs when they hoped to be on a beach. Burnley are just one of those teams that our game doesn’t suit playing against, that Vidra(?] who scored was probably their smallest player on the pitch.
    Didn’t think KWP looked as bad as some made out, he was a bit rusty to start but soon got into the game, certainly didn’t look like a fish up a tree like Danso did the other week. Played himself out of trouble against “the bigger boys” with a neat bit of skill a couple of times.

    Now I know I have different view from row EE to that of McCarthy the amount of times today he had players showing for the ball left and right with acres of Hampshire to run into but more often than not he just stood with the ball dithering about what to do.
    I stand to correct myself - (having now seen it) that first goal was flippin bizarre - whilst Ings looked to be trying to avoid deflecting it into the net and giving Alex a clean catch, McCarthy looked to be unprepared for any aspect of the corner - no wonder it all looked weird from the opposite end of the ground.

  11. #111

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    Typical Saints home game, first goal was a joke but then again should have been retaken as the ball was clearly outside the corner lines when placed. Still no excuse for what Ings did.

    We had a chance to get involved in Euro places but believe that has been extinguished now. Good to see as well we have another RB who lives to commit and dive in on that 2nd goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skintsaint View Post
    Typical Saints home game, first goal was a joke but then again should have been retaken as the ball was clearly outside the corner lines when placed. Still no excuse for what Ings did.

    We had a chance to get involved in Euro places but believe that has been extinguished now. Good to see as well we have another RB who lives to commit and dive in on that 2nd goal.
    thank god for that

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    Quote Originally Posted by austsaint View Post
    It's not bizarre to say Armstrong was sloppy and ineffective - nor bizarre to offer that JWP, though steady, did not have an excellent game. We did play very good Football in beating Leicester, Palace and Spurs...but we didn't "tear them apart"!
    You obviously didn't see the game in the same way that I did. We'll agree to differ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWillie View Post
    Crap from the kick off. No excuses. Our home form is woeful
    Comfortably bottom of the league on home form, I look around me at St Mary's and no one seems to be enjoying themselves, it's a real problem for the club, they must realise that from low ticket sales.

    Massive game next week, if Villa pick up 3 points against us we'll be in real trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Rooney View Post
    Hojberg has made a living off this
    But to be fair that's his job … Djenpo job is to beat players, create chances, get a ball in the box, score!

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    Pretty unenjoyable as a whole that one. We did everything to play into Burnley’s hands, starting off with a nice freak goal in the 2nd minute. Good platform for the mm straight away.

    the weather was pretty chaotic and you could really see it effecting there game, however thought at half time we were looking much the better side and would go on to win. Second half though was absolutely terrible, never got going and ran totally out of ideas. Fair play to Vydra as he took his goal brilliantly. And that was always going to be enough in the end.

    We had to do more after that but never threatened. Wouldn’t say Burnley can say with confidence they deserved all three points but their game plan certainly suited the conditions better than ours.

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    Never looked like we believed we could win, or even equalise towards the end. Some weren't even trying to in my opinion. Ralph needs to kick some arse again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    The manager went back to his early season tinkering broke up the centre back pairing and brought in the nearly mobile lighthouse, FFS why did he think that would work. it's not just his immobility it's his passing 5 forward and 43 sideways. McCarthy must take some of the blame his distribution is hopeless.

    We had 64% possession and lost again. In the second half we were awful, negative and even in the last five minutes chasing the game we were passing sideways and backwards and still giving the ball away.

    Most of these players and the manager/coaches are thick, thick overpaid multi millionaires but thick. What the hell was Ings thinking when he ducked out of the way. McCarthy totally unready for that. Great equaliser. We have only managed 11 points at home all season. The problem is the back four and midfield trying to slowly work the ball upfield or worse make ten passes to get it back to McCarthy.

    Especially today we need to get the ball into the last third quickly, sod the accuracy, win the ball and pressurise the defenders. We were mugged by a really poor team because of our attempts at slow possession football which has punished us all season. FFS even our goal we lost the ball, Ings won it back and shot. Burnley had 6 shots on target, we had 2.
    Djenepo had no idea, receive the ball, byeline clear, turn away inside and go backwards.

    It's no good having quick forwards if the defenders are going to monopolise the ball. The players with the most passes from both sides were JWP, Vestergaard FFS and I think Stephens enough said. Until we cut out this stupid slow play at the back and put it into the forwards we are going to keep getting results like this. Unless it was a joke Leicester dodged a bullet with Vestergaard. That didn't mean Ralph had to pick him.
    Agree with all of this. We looked promising in spells when Boufal was pulling the strings, but when he went off injured we lacked imagination and creativity. Like you, this p*ssing about at the back does my head in, as does the lack of urgency during the last quarter of an hour when we are chasing the match. When Boufal went off, I thought that Djenepo would mean more of the same, but like the Redmond of old before he became more direct in his attacking play, Djenepo held up play and then passed backwards, or cut in to midfield, instead of making attacking runs up the wing to get the ball behind the Burnley defence. With Redmond, there is an understanding between him and Bertrand and they often overlap to good effect, but Bertrand and Djenepo had no connection at all. The Burnley first goal was a shocker by both Ings and McCarthy. Ings did well to get us level, but when Burnley went ahead, we had neither the imagination nor the inclination to respond positively.
    God only knows why Vestergaard got the nod ahead of Bednarek.
    A couple of little cameos about Ings; His running to close down their player on the touchline, forcing a throw in, was impressive and summed up his total commitment. He often makes these runs to rush the goalkeeper too. And then when we were pressing high in the Burnley defence, he made a lovely pass through their lines which J W-P totally misread, the ball going out for a goal kick. I thought that J W-P was one of our more intelligent players,so he needs to be on the same wavelength as our strikers after all the time they have played together.

    As an aside, the referee was very poor. Burnley players pushed our players in the back several times and went unpunished, but when Long did it, it was a foul. A bit of consistency would be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I don't normally post instant reactions, but here goes.

    I understand why Vestergaard started, but it was wrong. I don't believe his height makes him a better counter to high balls than Bednarek, who is better in every aspect of defending. Hope the lesson has been learned. Would say Vestergaard was a major culprit for the second goal.

    KWP had to be given a chance and was mainly decent. But shouldn't he have been covering the near post for the goal from the corner? Edit: now seen the replay and Ings certainly got it wrong. JWP is better, but we need him in midfield too. And, btw, thought he had an excellent game.

    Losing first Redmond, then Boufal (who was having one of his best games) was critical.

    Face it, playing creative football in those conditions is a nightmare, and defending balls pumped up into the wind a battle. Why the f*** do we always play Burnley in a rain-sodden gale? I'm convinced that on a dry, warm, calm day we would tear them apart.

    We had good performances today. Armstrong was always looking for the killer pass and was so close several times. Ings was great. Not Long's best game and maybe Obafemi earlier would have been good. Djenepo didn't have Boufal's urgency or commitment. Stephens good on very difficult conditions. Hojbjerg and Bertrand ok.

    Ref was poor. There were plenty of fouls that got nothing and cards weren't given. I thought the VAR pen was nailed-on.

    But the real winner was the weather. For next week we need it dry and calm, Ralph to forget the Vestergaard experiment, Redmond and/or Boufal to recover and KWP to have learned from today

    Bad day, but mainly the weather won. Conditions like today are a real leveller. We are way better than Burnley. If we get another day like today, we need to do a Man City and identify a crowd safety issue and get the game postponed to a decent day.

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    Just about how I saw it so thanks for saving me the effort.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    Just about how I saw it so thanks for saving me the effort.
    + 1

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    When the tinkerman tinkers then expect a stinker.

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    Ref and linos shocking. VAR shocking in giving the pen. Hojberg head is elsewhere already...half the player of last season. We lack talent in the final third apart from Ings and especially now Redmond is out. Long will get a contract because Obifemi and Adams are equally inept. Boufal and Djenpo could be better if only they knew when to release the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Fan CaM View Post
    Ref and linos shocking. VAR shocking in giving the pen. Hojberg head is elsewhere already...half the player of last season. We lack talent in the final third apart from Ings and especially now Redmond is out. Long will get a contract because Obifemi and Adams are equally inept. Boufal and Djenpo could be better if only they knew when to release the ball.
    * not giving pen *

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    I was watching him warm up. He was hitting lofted passes to two guys in a triangle, about 40 yards apart. He skanked it straight out of play two or three times. It's amazing he is actually a footballer.


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    He isn't. I played with much better players than him, coached much better players than him, who could have easily played league football but were in good jobs and chose not to.It's our scouting and management that should be under the mcroscope for their appalling judgement with a whole series of misfits.

  25. #125

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    Ralph needs to up his game because whilst his basic method high pressing, quick attacking makes sense his passive acceptance of the back four passing and slowing the game makes no sense at all. Yesterday we had 64% possession/passes and managed two shots out of nine on target. In comparison against Leicester a much better team, we had 43% possession, twenty shots, most on target, Schmeicle saved seven, Leicester had five shots.

    It is almost that he is unaware what he has to do at home. Playing Vestergaard because he allegedly is better on the ball because he is expecting us to be allowed more possession is an indictment on his judgement.

    We have won three games at home all season, the worst home record in the division. Most against teams that played on our inbuilt weakness at home. Burnley is only the latest debacle. Ralph looks like he has no idea how to convert our high energy, highly successful away performances into success at home.

    We are best with about 40% possession. Picking Vestergaard was compounding the problem. It put a centre back in who sees his answer to his unsuitability to pass it around at the back where most of the passes he made and received were to and from Stephens who also easily reverts to this time wasting possession. Three players had the most passes in the match, JWP, Vestergaard with 48 and surprise, surprise Stephens with 48. Of course they were becausing they were passing to each other. Ralph needs to put a rocket under the centre backs because they are directly losing us games. Not as you would think their sometimes poor marking like letting Vydra getting in between the two centre backs without a direct challenge on the cross.

    The reason they are losing us games, they are effectively destroying our high energy, high pressing, harrassing game centred around four quick mobile aggressive forwards. The ball has to be delivered quickly, directly from the keeper, back four into the channels or quickly through the midfield as for Ings goal yesterday. If the full backs support then the midfield has to hold as they do away. Defence is important to keep enough players to stifle attacks. The quick delivery is paramount. Against Leicester we had 43% possession but we lost the ball 49% of those passes. Possession statistcs are based purely on the number of passes each team makes.

    We don't need lots of possession if our game is based on recovering the ball in ten seconds with heavy pressing. Therefore the defenders have to pass the ball forward short or long but always forward. Up to the forwards as quickly as possible. Increasing our possession at the back by 25% guarantees the the opposition have a complete team in position to outnumber our press. Furthermore because working the ball around short and sideways sucks our players forward and isolates the defence leaving space for the opposition to put the ball into attackers with space to manoeuvre as per Vydera yesterday. The back four have to stop using each other as comfort blankets, if there isnt an immediate forward pass available to a forward hit it straightaway into the channels and we can press it or win it. Just cut out the sideways and backwards and McCarthy passing it out short.

    We then are not playing the way the opposition have planned for and they are going to make mistakes under the high pressing, quick delivery. We may then win a few home games.

  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    Ralph needs to up his game because whilst his basic method high pressing, quick attacking makes sense his passive acceptance of the back four passing and slowing the game makes no sense at all. Yesterday we had 64% possession/passes and managed two shots out of nine on target. In comparison against Leicester a much better team, we had 43% possession, twenty shots, most on target, Schmeicle saved seven, Leicester had five shots.

    It is almost that he is unaware what he has to do at home. Playing Vestergaard because he allegedly is better on the ball because he is expecting us to be allowed more possession is an indictment on his judgement.

    We have won three games at home all season, the worst home record in the division. Most against teams that played on our inbuilt weakness at home. Burnley is only the latest debacle. Ralph looks like he has no idea how to convert our high energy, highly successful away performances into success at home.

    We are best with about 40% possession. Picking Vestergaard was compounding the problem. It put a centre back in who sees his answer to his unsuitability to pass it around at the back where most of the passes he made and received were to and from Stephens who also easily reverts to this time wasting possession. Three players had the most passes in the match, JWP, Vestergaard with 48 and surprise, surprise Stephens with 48. Of course they were becausing they were passing to each other. Ralph needs to put a rocket under the centre backs because they are directly losing us games. Not as you would think their sometimes poor marking like letting Vydra getting in between the two centre backs without a direct challenge on the cross.

    The reason they are losing us games, they are effectively destroying our high energy, high pressing, harrassing game centred around four quick mobile aggressive forwards. The ball has to be delivered quickly, directly from the keeper, back four into the channels or quickly through the midfield as for Ings goal yesterday. If the full backs support then the midfield has to hold as they do away. Defence is important to keep enough players to stifle attacks. The quick delivery is paramount. Against Leicester we had 43% possession but we lost the ball 49% of those passes. Possession statistcs are based purely on the number of passes each team makes.

    We don't need lots of possession if our game is based on recovering the ball in ten seconds with heavy pressing. Therefore the defenders have to pass the ball forward short or long but always forward. Up to the forwards as quickly as possible. Increasing our possession at the back by 25% guarantees the the opposition have a complete team in position to outnumber our press. Furthermore because working the ball around short and sideways sucks our players forward and isolates the defence leaving space for the opposition to put the ball into attackers with space to manoeuvre as per Vydera yesterday. The back four have to stop using each other as comfort blankets, if there isnt an immediate forward pass available to a forward hit it straightaway into the channels and we can press it or win it. Just cut out the sideways and backwards and McCarthy passing it out short.

    We then are not playing the way the opposition have planned for and they are going to make mistakes under the high pressing, quick delivery. We may then win a few home games.
    "We are best with about 40% possession". What a thing to post. We're best when we keep the opposition away from our goal as much as possible, and create & score more goals. There's no optimum possession stat.

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    Ralph needs to up his game because whilst his basic method high pressing, quick attacking makes sense his passive acceptance of the back four passing and slowing the game makes no sense at all. Yesterday we had 64% possession/passes and managed two shots out of nine on target. In comparison against Leicester a much better team, we had 43% possession, twenty shots, most on target, Schmeicle saved seven, Leicester had five shots.

    It is almost that he is unaware what he has to do at home. Playing Vestergaard because he allegedly is better on the ball because he is expecting us to be allowed more possession is an indictment on his judgement.

    We have won three games at home all season, the worst home record in the division. Most against teams that played on our inbuilt weakness at home. Burnley is only the latest debacle. Ralph looks like he has no idea how to convert our high energy, highly successful away performances into success at home.

    We are best with about 40% possession. Picking Vestergaard was compounding the problem. It put a centre back in who sees his answer to his unsuitability to pass it around at the back where most of the passes he made and received were to and from Stephens who also easily reverts to this time wasting possession. Three players had the most passes in the match, JWP, Vestergaard with 48 and surprise, surprise Stephens with 48. Of course they were becausing they were passing to each other. Ralph needs to put a rocket under the centre backs because they are directly losing us games. Not as you would think their sometimes poor marking like letting Vydra getting in between the two centre backs without a direct challenge on the cross.

    The reason they are losing us games, they are effectively destroying our high energy, high pressing, harrassing game centred around four quick mobile aggressive forwards. The ball has to be delivered quickly, directly from the keeper, back four into the channels or quickly through the midfield as for Ings goal yesterday. If the full backs support then the midfield has to hold as they do away. Defence is important to keep enough players to stifle attacks. The quick delivery is paramount. Against Leicester we had 43% possession but we lost the ball 49% of those passes. Possession statistcs are based purely on the number of passes each team makes.

    We don't need lots of possession if our game is based on recovering the ball in ten seconds with heavy pressing. Therefore the defenders have to pass the ball forward short or long but always forward. Up to the forwards as quickly as possible. Increasing our possession at the back by 25% guarantees the the opposition have a complete team in position to outnumber our press. Furthermore because working the ball around short and sideways sucks our players forward and isolates the defence leaving space for the opposition to put the ball into attackers with space to manoeuvre as per Vydera yesterday. The back four have to stop using each other as comfort blankets, if there isnt an immediate forward pass available to a forward hit it straightaway into the channels and we can press it or win it. Just cut out the sideways and backwards and McCarthy passing it out short.

    We then are not playing the way the opposition have planned for and they are going to make mistakes under the high pressing, quick delivery. We may then win a few home games.
    So basically when we have the ball we should give it back to opposition straight away?

  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadhall Saint View Post
    So basically when we have the ball we should give it back to opposition straight away?
    No, but don't worry if we do as long as we are pressing the recipient hard. Just don't pass it around allowing the opposition to form up goalside. pass it forward like Ings goal v Burnley or play it into the channel like Stephens quick ball for Ings goal against Spurs.

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by skintsaint View Post
    Typical Saints home game, first goal was a joke but then again should have been retaken as the ball was clearly outside the corner lines when placed. Still no excuse for what Ings did.
    VAR doesn't get involved with the position of the ball at free kicks or corners. Besides, the part of the ball on the ground is so very close to the line that the ball must have been overhanging the line which is all that is required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skintsaint View Post
    Typical Saints home game, first goal was a joke but then again should have been retaken as the ball was clearly outside the corner lines when placed. Still no excuse for what Ings did.
    Again, clutching at straws, there was nothing wrong whatsoever with the placement of the ball.

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  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    "We are best with about 40% possession". What a thing to post. We're best when we keep the opposition away from our goal as much as possible, and create & score more goals. There's no optimum possession stat.
    Its the way we play. Any more than about 45% and we are playing the ball across our own box. The higher the number the more aimless slow passing in the back four. If the possession was increased by incisive forward movement there would be a point in it. We, with the players we have and the style we play are only productive when we strike quickly. The fewer passes we make the higher the tempo. Which is what we are trying to achieve. Our best results have been with lower possession. It is only against the best teams that play attacking possession football that we usually don't get our best results. Against Spurs we had a good result with more possession but scored with a long pass from Stephens to Ings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    Its the way we play. Any more than about 45% and we are playing the ball across our own box. The higher the number the more aimless slow passing in the back four. If the possession was increased by incisive forward movement there would be a point in it. We, with the players we have and the style we play are only productive when we strike quickly. The fewer passes we make the higher the tempo. Which is what we are trying to achieve. Our best results have been with lower possession. It is only against the best teams that play attacking possession football that we usually don't get our best results. Against Spurs we had a good result with more possession but scored with a long pass from Stephens to Ings.
    Yes but you don't seem to see how ridiculous you sound. What do you think we should do, give the ball away to get the possession down. You can't play low possession against some teams. What you say is undoubtedly true, we get better results when it is us counter attacking, but you can't make the opposition play to our strengths. That's why Dyche has us sussed.

  33. #133

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    Not much point in having more possession if it's being spent farting around in our own half. I think the point being made here is that at home there's often not much in the way of chances being created. Neither is there much in the way of urgency. Opponents know how to play us at St Mary's so something needs to change. The statistics don't lie. A game at SMS never has a confident feel about it, even when Saints manage to get a 2 goal lead.

  34. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I don't normally post instant reactions, but here goes.

    I understand why Vestergaard started, but it was wrong. I don't believe his height makes him a better counter to high balls than Bednarek, who is better in every aspect of defending. Hope the lesson has been learned. Would say Vestergaard was a major culprit for the second goal.

    KWP had to be given a chance and was mainly decent. But shouldn't he have been covering the near post for the goal from the corner? Edit: now seen the replay and Ings certainly got it wrong. JWP is better, but we need him in midfield too. And, btw, thought he had an excellent game.

    Losing first Redmond, then Boufal (who was having one of his best games) was critical.

    Face it, playing creative football in those conditions is a nightmare, and defending balls pumped up into the wind a battle. Why the f*** do we always play Burnley in a rain-sodden gale? I'm convinced that on a dry, warm, calm day we would tear them apart.

    We had good performances today. Armstrong was always looking for the killer pass and was so close several times. Ings was great. Not Long's best game and maybe Obafemi earlier would have been good. Djenepo didn't have Boufal's urgency or commitment. Stephens good on very difficult conditions. Hojbjerg and Bertrand ok.

    Ref was poor. There were plenty of fouls that got nothing and cards weren't given. I thought the VAR pen was nailed-on.

    But the real winner was the weather. For next week we need it dry and calm, Ralph to forget the Vestergaard experiment, Redmond and/or Boufal to recover and KWP to have learned from today

    Bad day, but mainly the weather won. Conditions like today are a real leveller. We are way better than Burnley. If we get another day like today, we need to do a Man City and identify a crowd safety issue and get the game postponed to a decent day.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    we are better than Burnley?
    have you seen the table?
    i would think they will finish ahead of us this season
    but we are still better. Really?

  35. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by obelisk View Post
    Not much point in having more possession if it's being spent farting around in our own half. I think the point being made here is that at home there's often not much in the way of chances being created. Neither is there much in the way of urgency. Opponents know how to play us at St Mary's so something needs to change. The statistics don't lie. A game at SMS never has a confident feel about it, even when Saints manage to get a 2 goal lead.
    WE don't seem to actually GET AT THEM in the way we do when we're away. They seem to get a nosebleed in the final third, instead of actually trying to beat their man, get a cross in, or attack the penalty box as they should. Does Ralph caution them too much against getting suckered by a break away? We lost basically when Boufal went off, as every time he got the ball he tried to do what none of the others do - beat his man and make something happen. Djenepo is a cut-price Boufal who forgets to take the ball with him. All the others just think that possession football brings points (at home). Strikes me it's a managerial issue, as he's not setting them up right (Vestergard as ball player? Really?), can't change things mid-game, and only has an 'away' strategy based on breakaways. At home he's completely confused. What's Redmond's injury? Seems a bit mysterious.

  36. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    WE don't seem to actually GET AT THEM in the way we do when we're away. They seem to get a nosebleed in the final third, instead of actually trying to beat their man, get a cross in, or attack the penalty box as they should. Does Ralph caution them too much against getting suckered by a break away? We lost basically when Boufal went off, as every time he got the ball he tried to do what none of the others do - beat his man and make something happen. Djenepo is a cut-price Boufal who forgets to take the ball with him. All the others just think that possession football brings points (at home). Strikes me it's a managerial issue, as he's not setting them up right (Vestergard as ball player? Really?), can't change things mid-game, and only has an 'away' strategy based on breakaways. At home he's completely confused. What's Redmond's injury? Seems a bit mysterious.
    Perhaps controversillay, I actually think Vestergaard IS a better ball player than Bednarek, in the sense that he generally has better ball control and passing range. However, the same could be said about Hoedt, and like good old Wesley, Vestergaard seems to also have his moments of tripping over the ball or making a hospital pass. Added to the fact that he is so slow, positioning is poor and nowhere near the presence in the air that he should be, then I think it was a mistake to start him. However, I don't actually think the basic assessment of him being better on the ball than Bednarek is wrong.

    Perhaps you've highlighted the main issue we have at home in that Boufal (perhaps also Ings and Redmond) is one of only a few players who are adept in matches where the defence sits deep and we are forced to work in tight spaces. You have to find a way of playing around a side like Burnley if you're not going to go toe to toe with them in the 'battle' (which we aren't, lets face it). The likes of Long, Hojbjerg and Armstrong are well suited to our counter attack approach but not exactly the ideal personnel to play "in triangles" When our not-so-technical players are having to try and do it in horrendous conditions, it's just not going to happen (though I accept this game is hardly a one off).

    The question is then, what team and tactics would have worked against Burnley? I'm struggling to think. Counter account doesn't work. Quick passing game is not achievable. Long ball and crosses = Burnley bread and butter. Maybe we should have sat deep as well but that's then playing to their strengths too.

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Yes but you don't seem to see how ridiculous you sound. What do you think we should do, give the ball away to get the possession down. You can't play low possession against some teams. What you say is undoubtedly true, we get better results when it is us counter attacking, but you can't make the opposition play to our strengths. That's why Dyche has us sussed.
    We allowed Burnley and about seven other teams to beat us by getting us to keep possession at the back allowing them plenty of time to compact and crowd out our attacks at the same time pulling us onto them and leaving ourselves wide open to counter attack. Bournemouth, Wolves, Burnley just for example. We have to deny opponents the time to get ten players into their own half, the only way to to that is play the ball quickly out of defence to our forwards, play it out, or break quickly but like Liverpool regularly do hit the ball deep into the opponents half for our forwards to win it. The slower we play, the more meaningless passes we have and the easier it is to stifle our attacking.

    Another problem with our defenders keeping possession is the danger element to us. Whilst we can't entice their defenders and midfield forward whatever we do, opponents strikers eventually close down our centre backs and we either make a mistake or pass it to McCarthy who under pressure often slices a clearance, or just kicks it into centre of the congested midfield. If the defenders haven't an immediate forward ball it is far better than McCarthy being brought in, to just put the ball into the channels for our forwards to win it or press the defence deep in their half.
    Last edited by derry; 18-02-2020 at 11:33 AM.

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