Guided Missile Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 It may be the end, but I can't see it, myself. I am sure that there will be someone, somewhere, with enough money, plus affection, for the club, who will rescue it. There must be one special memory that every Saints fan has, that will demonstrate just what a great club we have/had. Maybe if we post what it means to us, someone will understand what the club is about and step in to keep it alive. My greatest memory was my first ever visit to the Dell. My twin brother and I were about six and as was usual in our house in Weston Lane, at the time, Mum gave us money for the bus and sent us on our way. As my Mum had never gone to the Dell herself, she thought is must be just like the County Ground, where we often went during the summer and she gave us picnic seats to take with us. We carried these into the ground and quickly found out that with 25,000 fans, there was little room to put them and even standing up and seeing anything was going to be a problem. As soon as we were in the ground though, we were lifted up by the people in front of us and passed from shoulder to shoulder, until we were at the front, our heads level with the running track. Our folding seats followed and were left in front of us, on the cinder track. I cannot remember the game, the score or the opponents. All I remember is being passed from fan to fan, floating forward to a position where we could see every kick and thinking, this is the club for me. It took me in as a child and looked after me and my brother. The fans, that's all the club has ever meant to me. They are the only constant and the best fans in the world....and anyone that comes in will find the same. Look after the fans and everything will follow...they looked after me and will look after others that need it. Ask Ron Davies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 It may be the end, but I can't see it, myself. I am sure that there will be someone, somewhere, with enough money, plus affection, for the club, who will rescue it. There must be one special memory that every Saints fan has, that will demonstrate just what a great club we have/had. Maybe if we post what it means to us, someone will understand what the club is about and step in to keep it alive. My greatest memory was my first ever visit to the Dell. My twin brother and I were about six and as was usual in our house in Weston Lane, at the time, Mum gave us money for the bus and sent us on our way. As my Mum had never gone to the Dell herself, she thought is must be just like the County Ground, where we often went during the summer and she gave us picnic seats to take with us. We carried these into the ground and quickly found out that with 25,000 fans, there was little room to put them and even standing up and seeing anything was going to be a problem. As soon as we were in the ground though, we were lifted up by the people in front of us and passed from shoulder to shoulder, until we were at the front, our heads level with the running track. Our folding seats followed and were left in front of us, on the cinder track. I cannot remember the game, the score or the opponents. All I remember is being passed from fan to fan, floating forward to a position where we could see every kick and thinking, this is the club for me. It took me in as a child and looked after me and my brother. The fans, that's all the club has ever meant to me. They are the only constant and the best fans in the world....and anyone that comes in will find the same. Look after the fans and everything will follow...they looked after me and will look after others that need it. Ask Ron Davies.... My greatest memory is MLT's last goal at the Dell v Arsenal but unfortunately that memory lost a bit of its sparkle on Saturday morning just gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 It may be the end, but I can't see it, myself. I am sure that there will be someone, somewhere, with enough money, plus affection, for the club, who will rescue it. . Yes I agree very pleased that it wont be Pinnacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmysaint7 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 My greatest memory is MLT's last goal at the Dell v Arsenal but unfortunately that memory lost a bit of its sparkle on Saturday morning just gone. maybe you should try not to get involved with everything saints related then. a reason why fans should never know too much about there club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 My greatest memory is MLT's last goal at the Dell v Arsenal but unfortunately that memory lost a bit of its sparkle on Saturday morning just gone. The greatest memory I have is driving up the M3 on cup final day totally convinced we were going to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysaint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 The greatest memory I have is driving up the M3 on cup final day totally convinced we were going to win 1976 or 2003 sounds good to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 It may be the end, but I can't see it, myself. I am sure that there will be someone, somewhere, with enough money, plus affection, for the club, who will rescue it. There must be one special memory that every Saints fan has, that will demonstrate just what a great club we have/had. Maybe if we post what it means to us, someone will understand what the club is about and step in to keep it alive. My greatest memory was my first ever visit to the Dell. My twin brother and I were about six and as was usual in our house in Weston Lane, at the time, Mum gave us money for the bus and sent us on our way. As my Mum had never gone to the Dell herself, she thought is must be just like the County Ground, where we often went during the summer and she gave us picnic seats to take with us. We carried these into the ground and quickly found out that with 25,000 fans, there was little room to put them and even standing up and seeing anything was going to be a problem. As soon as we were in the ground though, we were lifted up by the people in front of us and passed from shoulder to shoulder, until we were at the front, our heads level with the running track. Our folding seats followed and were left in front of us, on the cinder track. I cannot remember the game, the score or the opponents. All I remember is being passed from fan to fan, floating forward to a position where we could see every kick and thinking, this is the club for me. It took me in as a child and looked after me and my brother. The fans, that's all the club has ever meant to me. They are the only constant and the best fans in the world....and anyone that comes in will find the same. Look after the fans and everything will follow...they looked after me and will look after others that need it. Ask Ron Davies.... I take it GM you weren't at last season's home game against Doncaster. In line with FF's post above it's time to forget the past and build new memories with those who can still be bothered to carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Also my first match - 1977 I think, we drew with Hull City 2-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 1976 or 2003 sounds good to say that. Takes a while to get to Cardiff on the M3. For me, it would have to be those 3 goals in 6 minutes against Brum 3 years ago. They were top of the table at the time and were on top of the match until that point. I went nuts when the third went in. Just couldn't believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 When we thrashed spurs in the FA cup 4-0. Was great to get one over on Hoddle and we actually won live on TV too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Also my first match - 1977 I think, we drew with Hull City 2-2. 24th September 77. Missed that one as I was getting married that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 maybe you should try not to get involved with everything saints related then. a reason why fans should never know too much about there club Exactly. I don't want to know if Mother Theresa was secretly a kleptomaniac or Elvis mimed. Every one of the people we admire has every day human faults. Enjoy what they achieved and how they brightened your life - not what they might have done elswhere. So MLT was rude to you when you stated his friend was a fraud - good for him. You may or may not have been right but that isnt the point. MLT trusted his friend and thought he was doing good for the club. He didnt want to hear someone debase him. MLT may have been naive but he has given an immense amount to the club in the past and was trying to do more for the future. He wasnt trying to stiff us, just help, and a little naivete is totally forgivable from that man in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Saints 4 Liverpool 1 during Nichol's 4-2-4 days when the scousers were European champs. Le Tiss, Shearer, Rideout, Wallace n co murdered them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Shango Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 The whole 2003 cup run really. Starting with the amazing 4-0 win against Spurs, one of the best Saints performances I've ever seen. The win against Watford at Villa Park is most probably my favourite game I've ever attended. Obviously losing in the final was a big disappointment, but the whole build up to the game and the day itself were amazing. I was so convinced we would win that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchi Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Armstrong goal in 3-2 win over Man U - absolutely great set up and slow waltz through the area to put it away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 My greatest memory is MLT's last goal at the Dell v Arsenal but unfortunately that memory lost a bit of its sparkle on Saturday morning just gone. I am sorry to hear that Duncan, the old adage of never meet your heroes and all that. I don't proclaim to know what went on but I am sure the sparkle will return fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysaint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Takes a while to get to Cardiff on the M3. Trust me, the heat is obviously getting to me. Amongst my best memories must be Steau Bucherest away, the atmosphere from the home fans was amazing, the ground a tip, never got so wet in my life but a great trip, cant see us playing in my lifetime again in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offix Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 1980 thru 1982 is when I have my best memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 I am sorry to hear that Duncan, the old adage of never meet your heroes and all that. I don't proclaim to know what went on but I am sure the sparkle will return fella. I doubt it, it never did for Rupert Lowe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exit2 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 One of my best memories was 1984 at Hillsbourough we walked up the hill after a 0-0 to find our coach number 84 or something silly and there was just hundreds of coaches. others include Meeting Keegan as a boy, and my idol at the time Austin Hayes (dont ask why as I dont know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysaint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 others include Meeting Keegan as a boy, and my idol at the time Austin Hayes (dont ask why as I dont know) Austin was one of my hero's as well and a good friend a sad loss and along with Steve Mills will always be special to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
instinct Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Saints 6 Man U 3 Getting Le Tiss's autograph on a programme for my 12th bday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Taking my boy to his first game a few years ago and seeing the wonder in his eyes. Sadly, never got to take him to a Premier League game.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaramanga Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 for shear drama, has to be camara's late goal against norwich a few years back. some how ended up about 5 rows in front of my seat and still to this day have no idea how i got there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoSaint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Friday night game against Liverpool, live on BBC in `1984 We murdered them 2-0. Danny's first goal won goal of the season and he outjumped Alan Hansen for goal number 2. Was the most electric atmosphere i could remember at the Dell. Number 2 had to be the 1-0 win at P**tsmouth in the Cup that year too. Amazing finish and pretty interesting walk back to the car. Semi Final loss to Everton was probably the most gutted i ever felt at a game. What a season 83/84 was. The terminal decline has been witnessed at a distance of about 4000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evo Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 It would have to be my first game, at the age of 7ish, my Dad's company had some hospitality deal at the Dell. Frustratingly I can't remember who we played but I still have the program somewhere in the loft with signatures on it that we got from some of the players in the bar afterwards. I think the cover is a very young looking Benali. In second place would have to be the time we beat Man U for the second time in a row - 6-3 in '96? Ostenstad hat-trick if I remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Of all the hundreds of games I've been to nothing will top Villa Park for many moons to come. I knew we were going to win and I wanted so badly to get back to a cup final as some sort of homage to my dad, a true die hard saint, who had did the year before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le Tissier Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Going on a school tour of the dell and getting a lovelly blow job in the disabled toilets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denzil Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Evening games at The Dell were pretty special, Le Tissier's 2 goals against Newcastle in '93. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le Tissier Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 oh thats second to matts goal at the dell v arsenal..last match...it was on my birthday so was nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Hearing 'The Manchester United players aren't even bothering to celebrate' after Beckham scored against us, and 'The party isn't over for Saints' on Radio Solent as we became the first (and so far only) club to ever put six past Manchester United in one match. Ostenstad did score a hat trick Evo, but the last one was later taken away by the dubious goals committee because it was deflected in, despite the fact it was clearly going in anyway :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestSaint Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 i wil never forget my first game with my Grandfather when I was very young - almost 45 years ago The 1976 cup final was very special - and the testimonial that followed The 6-3 victory against Man Utd will not be forgotten either !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saints_is_the_south Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 As a relativley young fan, the game that will stick in my mind more than any will always be the 4-3 game Vs Norwich at SMS in the relegation season. Ultimatley it meant nothing in the end but it was just simply one of the most compelling games of football i have ever seen & been involved in as a supporter in the stadium, i have never heard SMS erupt as loud as it did when Camara's goal went in 2 minutes from time. A game i'll never forget as long as i live. Actual best moment is the 3-0 win against the skates in 03/04 season - just brilliant, especially Marian's goal to make it 2 infront of the Northam. I pray these days will return, as most of my life as a Saint have been doom & gloom, for now its just staying in existence that matters though. Saints til i die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 (edited) 1997 Derby away at the Baseball Ground. First time to drive to a midweek game (with my younger brother in cahoots)- indeed, first time to drive at night fullstop, having just got my licence. Balmy april evening- they were flying high and partying we were solemn and battling against the drop. We were absolutely hammered first half - dean sturridge tore us to shreds but somehow a combination of maik taylor and doddy kamikazes on the line kept them out. Second half was a complete transformation as we attacked in wave after wave: Berkovic, Magilton, Egil - each pass, run and attack building off the intensity and momentum of the fans. Out of the blue, however, they score. Our heads didnt drop though. We continued to come agonisingly close -I believe Berko hit the crossbar. Alas, in the 90th min, a final, dribbly shot comes in and deflects off Darryl Powell's shin and bobbles over the line. Pure carnage, a completely different buzz to anything I had experienced before at a game. Edited 1 July, 2009 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TijuanaTim Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 All the really fantastic things we've done and yet still strangely cling to '84 as the pinnacle (sorry) and the crowning glory was watching Steve Moran unceremoniously shaft the skates from my viewpoint in the fartton End....magic, pure magic FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Right sider Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Old Trafford when we beat them on Penaltys in 92. Flowers running the length of the field to greet us. Fratton Park after Alan Knights testimonial, the lock in was magic. Barry Horne against Bolton. My first game against Bristol Rovers in 1977. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 For some reason the game when we beat Wolves 4-1 when we were both in the Premiership stands out. Perhaps it was the interesting walk back to the coach and being followed by about 1000 angry Wolves fans throwing anything they could find. Happy days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 The 6-3 win against ManUre, the 3-1 Victory against Newcastle having been 1-0 down virtually on the 90 minutes, the MLT goal against Arsenal at the Dell last match, the 40+ coaches of fans taken to play Wimbledon in the great escape year with the Kachloul kazoos and the 2003 Cup Final. All golden memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster Cornelius Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Loads of fantastic memories, most of which have been mentioned above. Just to chuck another one in the pot, ****erill's brilliant mazy goal in the '86 quarter final at Brighton (and being 16 at the time, the mixture of fear and youthful excitement after the game.....and anyone who was there would know what I'm on about!) However, the main memory that springs to mind is on the motorway, in a minibus, on the way back from Cardiff. Us in the middle lane (jam) and Micky Channon on the inside lane. We kept passing each other, and after the usual thumbs up stuff and Micky Channon songs, we all wound the windows down and gave it the Channon windmill next time we passed him. Next time the inside lane moved and Micky passed us, he gave us the windmill out his window. So, we got our very own Channon windmill. Tragic to most, beautiful to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Richard of Woolston Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Having been fortunate enough to be at allthe recent Cup Finals from 76 onwards, and seen some great football, it seems strange to confess that my greatest Saints Memory is the promotion season in the late 70s. In particular the away win at Luton when I really thought for the first time we could get back. Good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
instinct Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 The 6-3 win against ManUre, the 3-1 Victory against Newcastle having been 1-0 down virtually on the 90 minutes, the MLT goal against Arsenal at the Dell last match, the 40+ coaches of fans taken to play Wimbledon in the great escape year with the Kachloul kazoos and the 2003 Cup Final. All golden memories. That 3-1 was amazing, think Jim Magilton got a couple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draino76 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 THE Chris Marsden goal at Ipswich. THE Russel Osman goal at Maine Road where he shouted 'Leave it' and duly volleyed home from outside the area. The 4-2-4 formation of the early nineties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 That 3-1 was amazing, think Jim Magilton got a couple That's not the one I'm talking about. Newcastle were either top, or somewhere near it. We, as usual, were in danger of relegation. Most were starting to file out of the ground, consoling themselves that it was no shame to have held Newcastle to just the one goal advantage. All of a sudden, within 3 or 4 short minutes, some of it into injury time, we had scored three goals by Le Tiss (of course), Shipperley and Flash Gordon Watson, I think it was. If I recall correctly, those last two had only just joined the club a short while before. It was an object lesson to all those who leave the ground early and who kicked themselves for missing a famous victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Dellhurst takes some beating, the roar when those two goals went in was deafening. I can still remember the lads up the pillar in the stand and Covent Garden taken over by Saints fans. No way was there only 10,000 of us in that ground. Spurs 4-0 in the Cup IMO is the best Saints performance since 1983/4. I loved that WGS side, we came from 2-0 down regularly, particularly against Fulham. A side with Saints spirit but also quality and fitness. Any number of great goals from MLT 1989 win V Liverpool, a young right-back by the name of Dodd made a name for himself. I remember the Family Open Days of the mid-80s and meeting Ted Bates, Andy Townsend, Mark Wright, Peter Shilton. Steve Moran scoring an excellent hat-trick V Ipswich 1984/5 I remember finishing us second in 1983/4, a feat surely never to be seen again. Of course, I was only young at the time and didn't know this! Sadly I also remember the semi-final defeats at Highbury & WHL, plus 1987 in the League Cup and Dalglish scoring a peach against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeem Hardison Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 I remember finding a pube in a sausage roll when we played Liverpool at The Dell in 1988. Can't remember the score. Great days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 That's not the one I'm talking about. Newcastle were either top, or somewhere near it. We, as usual, were in danger of relegation. Most were starting to file out of the ground, consoling themselves that it was no shame to have held Newcastle to just the one goal advantage. All of a sudden, within 3 or 4 short minutes, some of it into injury time, we had scored three goals by Le Tiss (of course), Shipperley and Flash Gordon Watson, I think it was. If I recall correctly, those last two had only just joined the club a short while before. It was an object lesson to all those who leave the ground early and who kicked themselves for missing a famous victory. I remember that. Newcastle murdered us in the first half, their full-back Hottiger tore us to shreds with these solo runs. Kitson scored with an overhead kick and Bruce made a couple of stunners to keep it at 1-0. Charlton hit the bar for us and then with 20 minutes a tannoy announcement was made telling the Archers to sit down. This roused us in defiance and Newcastle panicked and gave the ball away as the Dell roared Saints on. When MLT equalised with about 4 minutes to go, you just knew - and so did the Toon Army - what was happening next. Even I didn't expect Newcastle to cave in quite like that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 maybe you should try not to get involved with everything saints related then. a reason why fans should never know too much about there club This message has blown me away in its stupidity - have another look at what you wrote (see below) "a reason why fans should never know too much about there (sic) club" Have a real think Jimmy, how much blind loyalty do you want to give, when will you say enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 Exactly. I don't want to know if Mother Theresa was secretly a kleptomaniac or Elvis mimed. Every one of the people we admire has every day human faults. Enjoy what they achieved and how they brightened your life - not what they might have done elswhere. So MLT was rude to you when you stated his friend was a fraud - good for him. You may or may not have been right but that isnt the point. MLT trusted his friend and thought he was doing good for the club. He didnt want to hear someone debase him. MLT may have been naive but he has given an immense amount to the club in the past and was trying to do more for the future. He wasnt trying to stiff us, just help, and a little naivete is totally forgivable from that man in that situation. I give up. If he ****ged your wife/boyfriend I presume you would still think that OK? No wonder we are where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 I give up. If he ****ged your wife/boyfriend I presume you would still think that OK? No wonder we are where we are. But he didnt **** either my wife or yours. He was trying to do good. His efforts may have been misplaced, but they were almost certainly well intentioned. Unless and until you can show he deliberately deceived us then MLT deserves continuing thanks, goodwill and the benefit of any doubt. Club historian isnt the same role as being investigator, prosecutor, judge, jury and hangman combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 1 July, 2009 Share Posted 1 July, 2009 I remember that. Newcastle murdered us in the first half, their full-back Hottiger tore us to shreds with these solo runs. Kitson scored with an overhead kick and Bruce made a couple of stunners to keep it at 1-0. Charlton hit the bar for us and then with 20 minutes a tannoy announcement was made telling the Archers to sit down. This roused us in defiance and Newcastle panicked and gave the ball away as the Dell roared Saints on. When MLT equalised with about 4 minutes to go, you just knew - and so did the Toon Army - what was happening next. Even I didn't expect Newcastle to cave in quite like that though. I was in the Archers. Srnicek had a nightmare and completely messed up 2 crosses. Seem to recall him dropping one that even Neil Heaney couldn't miss. My favourite moments: Matty's last goal at the Dell. Monkou's winner in the 5-4 at Norwich. Bucharest away. Benali's header. Rasiak's "winner" at Derby in the play offs. The stand was shaking. Curse the play offs and their crazy goal aggregate rules. No need for penalties when one team scores more away goals than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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