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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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3 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

During the past four and a half years we have seen Labour's sitting on the fence, trying to appear to be pro-remain to the champagne socialist metropolitan elite and pro-leave to their traditional heartlands red wall seats. They were prepared to back the Bill in the House proposed by that idiot Benn to scupper our negotiating position by declaring that we would not accept no deal, no matter how bad the deal would be. Half the Party, led by their current leader was in favour of holding a second referendum, before the first one had been enacted, hopeful that this would return the decision that should have been returned in the first one.

I therefore have to have a good belly laugh at your assertion that Labour puts the country before politics. They have little idea of what is best for the country as they prove time and time again.

I thought we were talking about Labour abstaining, you've just thrown in a load of surplus bollocks.

Whilst you've bought it up, the threat of a no deal is over exaggerated, everyone on the EU side knew we wouldn't go down that path. If there is one consensus in all of this, is that is no one in the UK wanted a no deal. Apart from the very small group of Brexit purist and their keyboard followers.

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1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

I would be quite ambivalent about the Scots gaining independence, quite frankly. Without their 58 MPs able to vote in our Parliament against zero English MPs able to vote in theirs, the Government would almost certainly be Conservative from then on. Naturally I would prefer for the Union to continue for the benefit of the UK, but if the Scottish electorate voted in a referendum to leave the UK, then I would have no objection for the reason above. They'll be welcome to lose the Barnett formula payments from us, to raise their own taxation to pay for their socialist utopia, to have the Euro as their currency and all of the border problems trading with us, the main market for their products.

And of course as a democrat I will be equally supportive of the results of a referendum vote by Orkney and Shetland to leave Scotland.

If I was Boris I’d call Krankies bluff & give her one (a referendum that is, I wouldn’t wish the other on anyone). Independence when both in the EU is entirely different from now. Previously the sweaties argued that the opt out of The Euro & Schegen applied to them as part of the UK, whilst that was debatable, it’s not now. Krankies pronouncements on the Irish border can be thrown back at her, as we now know what the border will look like. The final icing on the cake is that Labour, being a unionist party, will have to campaign that Boris’ deal is better for Scotland than being in the EU. A remain vote can be sold as being delivered because of the deal Boris struck. Personally, I’d like to see the sweaties fuck off, but I don’t think they will in a million years. 

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1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

I thought we were talking about Labour abstaining, you've just thrown in a load of surplus bollocks.

Whilst you've bought it up, the threat of a no deal is over exaggerated, everyone on the EU side knew we wouldn't go down that path. If there is one consensus in all of this, is that is no one in the UK wanted a no deal. Apart from the very small group of Brexit purist and their keyboard followers.

The "surplus bollocks" is the background to Labour's confused stance on Brexit, which is still now influenced by them not knowing whether to suck up to their metropolitan elite remoaner base, or their leave supporting red wall former support. If the former, then they would still be bashing the deal and coming up with something a lot less derisory than Dodds claiming that Starmer could have brought about a better deal, but unable to say what it would be. If the latter, then they will have to bide their time and hope that the Tories allow some deterioration of workplace conditions below EU levels, which is unlikely given that they are currently higher than the EU's in most areas. The Tories will be happy to invest in those areas to level up the regions and keep that support. Under these circumstances, Labour's best hope is to continue as before; fudge, fudge, fudge.

As for your assertion that the EU were certain that we would not leave without a deal, it was their sheer panic that we would go WTO as the deadline grew close, that caused them to buckle and give us more or less what we wanted. The EU hadn't until quite late in the day realised that now they weren't dealing with May or Rogers any longer, our resolve had hardened considerably. Boris and Frost played a blinder and the EU blinked first. Boris is faced with a weak opposition pretty powerless to do anything about the deal. The EU side on the other hand is badly damaged politically along the Germany/France axis because Macron had to be put firmly in his place by Merkel for nearly bringing about no deal. This deal is not the punishment deal that the EU wanted to give us to deter others leaving, but had it been, I'm sure that Boris would not have accepted it.

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1 hour ago, benjii said:

A good analysis of the deal for those interested in cutting through the government propaganda.

I hope Wes doesn't read that thread, he thinks we held firm on our "red lines" and at the last minute the EU "buckled" and "gave us more or less what we wanted". Of course if he does read it, it will turn out to be complete bollocks, at least in his eyes.

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1 hour ago, benjii said:

A good analysis of the deal for those interested in cutting through the government propaganda.

Thanks. Interesting reading. Little wander the EU states approved it unanimously. 

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2 hours ago, benjii said:

A good analysis of the deal for those interested in cutting through the government propaganda.

Yes I trawled through that on twitter earlier, interesting stuff especially about the wins on the "defensive" issues for both sides, but at the expense of more valuable wins in "offensive" areas.

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Economists are being forced to revisit doom-laden forecasts for Brexit because they were so wrong first time around, laughably so in the case of the Treasury. In May 2016 – a month before the referendum – it claimed that a vote for Brexit would, within the space of two years, cause the economy to shrink by up to six per cent relative to its performance if we voted to remain, and unemployment to grow by up to 800,000. In the event, the economy grew and unemployment fell to its lowest level in 45 years.   

The Treasury wasn’t alone, though. Virtually every think tank forecast a grim outcome from Brexit. It is little surprise that they did because their forecasts were built on the assumption that there could be no positive outcome from Brexit, except for the government saving a few billion on its contributions to EU coffers. What about the possibility of a post-Brexit UK benefitting from smarter regulation or from trade deals with non-EU countries? These never even entered the equation. Model after model merely measured the cost of greater friction in trade between the UK and the EU.

 

Now would be a good time to admit I was right all along, you losers.

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1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

Now would be a good time to admit I was right all along, you losers.

You were not right, you didn't contribute an original thought to the starting post of this thread, ( as with almost anything you post ), and you couldn't even spell correctly;

From the last line of the OP - "For any miners out there, ignore the name of the centre publishing the paper.."

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3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

I hope Wes doesn't read that thread, he thinks we held firm on our "red lines" and at the last minute the EU "buckled" and "gave us more or less what we wanted". Of course if he does read it, it will turn out to be complete bollocks, at least in his eyes.

I did read his thoughts. Policy lead at Tony Blair Institute - check.  FT leader writer - check. Former Civil Servant - check

If you don't mind, I'll wait and see what the conclusions are from the Brexit legal experts when they have had time to go through it line by line, instead of paying too much attention to the views of some remoaner economist Blair lackey. 

If they conclude that the deal falls short in any serious way, they will soon say so.

By the way, another trade deal rolled over by the useless Liz Truss, this time Turkey. I understand that the CANZUK deal preparations are going well too.

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3 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

By the way, another trade deal rolled over by the useless Liz Truss, this time Turkey. I understand that the CANZUK deal preparations are going well too.

As I said earlier on the thread, rolling over trade deals to maintain existing arrangements is hardly exhibiting advanced negotiating skills - my 6 year old grand son could do it.

Edited by badgerx16
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3 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

 

If you don't mind, I'll wait and see what the conclusions are from the Brexit legal experts when they have had time to go through it line by line, instead of paying too much attention to the views of some remoaner economist Blair lackey. 

If they conclude that the deal falls short in any serious way, they will soon say so.

No they won't, it'll be spun to make BoJo out to be a great national hero, beating those pesky eurocrats into submission. The "deal" falls short of what we were promised, is padded out with caveats and areas yet to be agreed, contains almost nothing to address financial services, and the fishing industry says it is a sell-out.

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9 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Now would be a good time to admit I was right all along, you losers.

The president of the CBI seems to be one that’s admitting it. Praising Boris and stating that the deal is a springboard for growth. Previously a rabid remainer that had called for a second referendum. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The president of the CBI seems to be one that’s admitting it. Praising Boris and stating that the deal is a springboard for growth. Previously a rabid remainer that had called for a second referendum. 

No he's not, he's just relieved that it's not no deal and that it's over, he knows that the window for a second referendum is well gone. In the year of covid, businesses are desperate for any springboard.

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Nice to see that the "deal" is right on the ball in keeping up with technological developments:

 

"References to decades-old computer software are included in the new Brexit agreement, including a description of Netscape Communicator and Mozilla Mail as being "modern" services."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55475433

 

I hope that the rest of the agreement has been better constructed.

 

Edit: WSS pipped me by a few seconds

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7 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Nice to see that the "deal" is right on the ball in keeping up with technological developments:

 

"References to decades-old computer software are included in the new Brexit agreement, including a description of Netscape Communicator and Mozilla Mail as being "modern" services."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55475433

 

I hope that the rest of the agreement has been better constructed.

Page 201-207 talks about supporting British Leyland exports to the Soviet Union

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55 minutes ago, aintforever said:

So your hero PM makes more U turns than an Italian tank battalion and tells a lie every twenty seconds, yet you pick up on some nobody MP. :lol:

And equally Starmer has been all over the shop. His backside must be covered from splinters from the number of different fences he has sat on 

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24 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

We could have been out years ago but for Rory Bremner;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424

 

"Honestly, who'd have thought that without a spoof phone call, a group of Eurosceptic backbenchers might have forced the prime minister to resign and taken us out of the EU. What are the chances of that?"

It really is a giant leap of imagination to believe for one minute that we could have been out of the EU years ago, had it not been for Bremner's jolly little jape, and it suggests that you have little realistic grasp of the historical political situation of that time. Even had Major been ousted as party leader, who do you think the Euro-sceptic replacement would have been? The chief candidates were Clark and Heseltine, both dyed in the wool EU fanatics. Maastricht had already been signed by Major in February 1992 and was due to come into effect in November 1993. Major had decided that we plebs should not be allowed a referendum on it. And whoever had taken over from Major, what were their chances of beating laughing boy Euro-fanatic Blair in that following election?

The essence of this sort of historical "what could have been" musing relies heavily on an element of reality. Maybe the BBC are planning a comedy programme with this as the theme, but I don't think that anybody over the age of 40 will find it even mildy amusing.

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28 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

It really is a giant leap of imagination to believe for one minute that we could have been out of the EU years ago, had it not been for Bremner's jolly little jape, and it suggests that you have little realistic grasp of the historical political situation of that time. Even had Major been ousted as party leader, who do you think the Euro-sceptic replacement would have been? The chief candidates were Clark and Heseltine, both dyed in the wool EU fanatics. Maastricht had already been signed by Major in February 1992 and was due to come into effect in November 1993. Major had decided that we plebs should not be allowed a referendum on it. And whoever had taken over from Major, what were their chances of beating laughing boy Euro-fanatic Blair in that following election?

The essence of this sort of historical "what could have been" musing relies heavily on an element of reality. Maybe the BBC are planning a comedy programme with this as the theme, but I don't think that anybody over the age of 40 will find it even mildy amusing.

Is being supercilious your defining personal attribute ? Is slinging insults your default position ? Do you truly, totally, lack a sense of humour ? I am well beyond 40 and I would find it very amusing.

( Now, is there an emoji that is sticking it's tongue out ? )

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On 27/06/2016 at 13:55, Guided Missile said:

A Washington based conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation, published a paper on the best option for the UK, should we leave the EU, focusing on free trade deals. To me, this is the most important thing to get right. (" It's all about the economy, stupid"). In summary, the report states:

  1. The U.S. and the U.K. should negotiate a free trade area based on the principles of national sovereignty and economic freedom.

It bears repeating. Who would have thought the first objective would take four and a half years to accomplish with the EU. Still, better late than never. This and the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which took only a year to accomplish, will both be the successes that I will be celebrating on New Years Eve. On that note, best wishes to ALL posters on this site. Let's hope for a prosperous, happy and healthy New Year. We may have European football to look forward to!!

Oh and thanks to Steve Grant and all the mods. Best footie site by far and all down to their very modestly rewarded efforts.

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What a damp squib. The UK predictably folded when it came to the crunch - the EU is very pleased with itself (from sources close to the negotiations).  I agree with JP Morgan’s assessment: “The good news is that a disruptive and acrimonious ‘no deal’ has been avoided. The bad news for the UK, in our view, is that the EU appears to have secured a deal which allows it to retain nearly all the advantages it derives from the UK while giving it the ability to use regulatory structures to cherry pick among the sectors where the UK had previously enjoyed advantages in the trading relationship.  That applies to services sector in particular, but to parts of the goods sector too”.

I wonder where all those infamous cards went - maybe they got lost and jumbled in with the xmas post by accident.

Seasons greetings!

#bigfisheatslittlefish

Edited by shurlock
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Main points from the FTA with the EU:

  • It provides for zero tariffs and zero quotas on all goods that comply with the appropriate rules of origin.
  • It reflects the fact that the UK is leaving the EU's ecosystem of common rules, supervision and enforcement mechanisms.

Or, in the words of the OP:

Quote

The EU and the U.K. should negotiate a free trade area based on the principles of national sovereignty and economic freedom.

God, I love the fact that we don't live in the occupied territories of Europe anymore from Friday.

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20 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

God, I love the fact that we don't live in the occupied territories of Europe anymore from Friday.

Do tell, which geo-political / military power 'occupies" Europe ?

 

Oh, of course, you can't. You're just playing the pompous tit again.

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4 hours ago, shurlock said:

What a damp squib. The UK predictably folded when it came to the crunch - the EU is very pleased with itself (from sources close to the negotiations).  I agree with JP Morgan’s assessment: “The good news is that a disruptive and acrimonious ‘no deal’ has been avoided. The bad news for the UK, in our view, is that the EU appears to have secured a deal which allows it to retain nearly all the advantages it derives from the UK while giving it the ability to use regulatory structures to cherry pick among the sectors where the UK had previously enjoyed advantages in the trading relationship.  That applies to services sector in particular, but to parts of the goods sector too”.

I wonder where all those infamous cards went - maybe they got lost and jumbled in with the xmas post by accident.

Seasons greetings!

#bigfisheatslittlefish

Where you been Shurlock?

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Despite Brexit:

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UK technology companies attracted a record $15bn (£11.2bn) in venture capital funding in 2020, including the creation of seven “unicorn” firms valued at more than $1bn. The firms raised more money from VC investors than the rest of Europe combined, according to research by the data provider Dealroom. The $15bn total compares with the previous record of $14.8bn in 2019. The investments helped create seven unicorns – : the electric vehicle startup Arrival, the recipe box company Gousto, the green energy provider Octopus Energy, the e-commerce platforms Gymshark and Cazoo, and the cloud communications platform Infobip.

Project Fearless...

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22 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Is being supercilious your defining personal attribute ? Is slinging insults your default position ? Do you truly, totally, lack a sense of humour ? I am well beyond 40 and I would find it very amusing.

( Now, is there an emoji that is sticking it's tongue out ? )

Yes, yes and yes.

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It is a mark of the situation that we have now arrived at, that in a few hours we will be out of the Implementation Period of the WA, and all that the resident remoaners here can do, is call Farage names in an act of childish, frustrated, foot-stamping defiance. Still, if it makes you lot feel better, then go ahead, but I don't see that Farage is going to be much bothered by insults from a football forum. His place in history for beginning and then leading the campaign for our exit from the EU has earned him his place in history, and Boris will also be remembered down the years as the PM that brought about a successful FTA following our departure, against the predictions of many who said that such a deal was impossible.

It has been a truly awful year due to the Chinese virus, but at least there is much to be optimistic about for our future now that we are liberated from the EU's tentacles.

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24 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

It has been a truly awful year due to the Chinese virus, but at least there is much to be optimistic about for our future now that we are liberated from the EU's tentacles.

Lol. Very clear you haven’t read it. There are going to be years of negotiations where the EU has the whip hand because Johnson in his infinite wisdom didn’t want a resolution process based on concrete terms overseen by judiciary but instead thought we’d be better off sanctioning each other. The fun part will be watching your temple veins explode with anger

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