VAR- What is it good for.........

[LiberalCommunist]

Absolutely nothing. Football is officially back. No more stunted celebrations. No more side line Mike deans. No more reverse decision crowd cheers.

Just football. Thank lordy lord for that.

(even a over zealous Bobby Madley couldn't spoil it)

[notnowcato]

Would the Wednesday goal been allowed in a VAR world? It would’ve certainly been looked at for a possible foul on Smallbone and a possible handball. 

[niceandfriendly]

The game flowed and we could actually celebrate the goals. What a difference. Do we really want to get promoted? 😜

[Lord Duckhunter]

Wait until we have a perfectly good winner ruled out but a useless Lino & then see the reaction. I doubt there will be many “football is back” posts then. 
 

I never wanted VAR, but you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 minutes ago, niceandfriendly said:

The game flowed and we could actually celebrate the goals. What a difference. Do we really want to get promoted? 😜

Pound to a penny it’ll be in the championship next season anyway. 

Edited 5 August, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[The Cat]

If they had VAR alongside the new direction of adding time which is wasted we could be looking at 15+ of time added on.

At some point we'll get a goal dubiously ruled out for offside but we had enough contentious decisions go against us with VAR anyway that I can accept the odd dodgy decision.

[AlexLaw76]

just wait till we have an injustice, that would have been corrected by VAR...

[niceandfriendly]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Wait until we have a perfectly good winner ruled out but a useless Lino & then see the reaction. I doubt there will be many “football is back” posts then. 

Yeah there will. VAR sucks, even when it goes in our favour. An impartial unbiased viewer realises that you’ll get decisions go against you and for you over the course of a season. That’s a price worth paying for a free-flowing game where you can actually enjoy the best part of football, scoring goals. 

[Elmore Saint]

2022 - We score, muted warm feeling, sharp intake of breath, checks watch, looks at referee with hand on earpiece, looks at screen, checks phone to see who is on duty at Stockley, wait some more, when/if it's given, the moment has passed, reaches for a gentle sip of beer....

2023 - We score, I cheer, cat goes mental, beer everywhere, dopamine flows, the excitement of sport stays real. 

I'll take the odd duff call as a cost of that.

[niceandfriendly]

9 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Pound to a penny it’ll be in the championship next season anyway. 

Very possible. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

just wait till we have an injustice, that would have been corrected by VAR...

We’ve also had injustices caused by VAR. On balance I think we’re a lot better off without it.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

We’ve also had injustices caused by VAR. On balance I think we’re a lot better off without it.

well, don;t get used to it, as it will be in this league very soon

[Saint_Tony]

I actually forgot about it, as Che wheeled of he had that look that he had just seen a flag or something. No need any more for that hesitancy every time a goal goes in. Some decisions will go against us but so what, they still get them wrong even with VAR.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

well, don;t get used to it, as it will be in this league very soon

And that is a serious concern. At least we can enjoy this season.

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, tillerp said:

2022 - We score, muted warm feeling, sharp intake of breath, checks watch, looks at referee with hand on earpiece, looks at screen, checks phone to see who is on duty at Stockley, wait some more, when/if it's given, the moment has passed, reaches for a gentle sip of beer....

2023 - We score, I cheer, cat goes mental, beer everywhere, dopamine flows, the excitement of sport stays real. 

I'll take the odd duff call as a cost of that.

They must have CGI’d in all these immediate goal celebrations last season then.

 

 

[niceandfriendly]

8 minutes ago, tillerp said:

2022 - We score, muted warm feeling, sharp intake of breath, checks watch, looks at referee with hand on earpiece, looks at screen, checks phone to see who is on duty at Stockley, wait some more, when/if it's given, the moment has passed, reaches for a gentle sip of beer....

2023 - We score, I cheer, cat goes mental, beer everywhere, dopamine flows, the excitement of sport stays real. 

I'll take the odd duff call as a cost of that.

Spot on. 

[AlexLaw76]

No VAR at Carrow Road... The below is the build up to the winning goal, for Norwich (apparently)

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

No VAR at Carrow Road... The below is the build up to the winning goal, for Norwich (apparently)

And what’s wrong with that? It’s quite possible that part of the ball is over part of the line and anyway, VAR has never been used or intended for the ball in or out of play. 
 

It’s football. Just get on with the game.

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

And what’s wrong with that? It’s quite possible that part of the ball is over part of the line and anyway, VAR has never been used or intended for the ball in or out of play. 
 

It’s football. Just get on with the game.

🤣

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

🤣

Like I said. Show me a shot looking along the line. This is a common preconception amongst people who don’t know what they are looking at. It is quite common for there to be a gap between the line and the ball when seen from certain angles. It’s one of the first things that you are taught on a refereeing course. So I ask again.

What’s wrong with that?

[aintforever]

40 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

No VAR at Carrow Road... The below is the build up to the winning goal, for Norwich (apparently)

To be fair, that looks similar to the one at the World Cup where one angle it looked miles over when it was in fact still in play.

As for VAR, it was refreshing yesterday not having it but I still think it’s a good thing for clubs our size in the Prem because it helps lessen the big club bias. In the Championship I think I prefer not to have it but there will be moaning when the absence of it goes against us. The one thing VAR has shown is the extent to which on field officials make the wrong call.

Edited 5 August, 2023 by aintforever

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

To be fair, that looks similar to the one at the World Cup where one angle it looked miles over when it was in fact still in play.

As for VAR, it was refreshing yesterday not having it but I still think it’s a good thing for clubs our size in the Prem because it helps lessen the big club bias. In the Championship I think I prefer not to have it but there will be moaning when the absence of it goes against us. The one thing VAR has shown is the extent to which on field officials make the wrong call.

That is subjective. 

[DrSuess1979]

Where would we be if we couldn’t argue about reffing decisions etc 

Var doesn’t eradicate that it just switches the “human error” somewhere else 

and for that fact it’s a pointless technology which slows the game down and removes that elation of scoring a goal.

 

[Lighthouse]

10 minutes ago, DrSuess1979 said:

Where would we be if we couldn’t argue about reffing decisions etc 

Var doesn’t eradicate that it just switches the “human error” somewhere else 

and for that fact it’s a pointless technology which slows the game down and removes that elation of scoring a goal.

 

2017 League Cup winners?

When was the last time a Lampard vs Germany or David Silva in 2014 wasn't corrected by VAR? We still have contentious decisions, just not howlers.

Weird, these guys look sort of happy, in a match with VAR. Shouldn't they be standing, waiting patiently and emotionless for a VAR check?

 

[Stud mark of doom]

Yesterday’s match - and our goals - were so much better with no VAR. The instant excitement of a goal is pretty much the best and most unique thing about football (given the uncertain frequency of goals). VAR ruins the most important moments, and ruins the game.

 

 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Yesterday’s match - and our goals - were so much better with no VAR. The instant excitement of a goal is pretty much the best and most unique thing about football (given the uncertain frequency of goals). VAR ruins the most important moments, and ruins the game.

 

 

 

Quite so. Much worse than coitus interruptus.

[redkeith]

After the Gabbiadini offside, I was all in favour of Var. 2 strangers in the same row at Wembley had a picture on their phones a minute later showing that he was onside.

However, the way it was implemented in the uk was mental. Danny Ings having that goal disallowed for a black armband ffs. 

It should only be for big errors, like Gabbi. Maybe a 20 second rule, if you can't prove an error in that time then hard luck.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, redkeith said:

After the Gabbiadini offside, I was all in favour of Var. 2 strangers in the same row at Wembley had a picture on their phones a minute later showing that he was onside.

However, the way it was implemented in the uk was mental. Danny Ings having that goal disallowed for a black armband ffs. 

It should only be for big errors, like Gabbi. Maybe a 20 second rule, if you can't prove an error in that time then hard luck.

I agree. Even the Gabbiadani effort involved an obvious offside from Bertrand.

[Viking Saint]

On 05/08/2023 at 10:11, Saint_Tony said:

I actually forgot about it, as Che wheeled of he had that look that he had just seen a flag or something. No need any more for that hesitancy every time a goal goes in. Some decisions will go against us but so what, they still get them wrong even with VAR.

And when he scored, the commentator said something like 'but hang on' and I thought 'FFS, not again', but he went on to say that there were still a lot of minutes left. It's just nice to be able to celebrate goals again!

Edited 6 August, 2023 by Viking Saint
Typo

[Toussaint]

My only reservation is I think our more skilful players are going to get kicked to crap this season and I’m not sure the refs are up to it or care that much. 

[trousers]

20 minutes ago, redkeith said:

Maybe a 20 second rule, if you can't prove an error in that time then hard luck.

Yep, there should defo be a time limit of some kind. If it takes over 20 seconds to work out if the on pitch decision was right or wrong then, by definition, it couldn't have been a "clear and obvious" error.

Alternatively, maybe there should be the equivalent of "umpires call" in cricket for fine margins of error?

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Yep, there should defo be a time limit of some kind. If it takes over 20 seconds to work out if the on pitch decision was right or wrong then, by definition, it couldn't have been a "clear and obvious" error.

Alternatively, maybe there should be the equivalent of "umpires call" in cricket for fine margins of error?

Just bin it

[Sunglasses Ron]

Oddly, I absolutely hate VAR when it’s Saints playing (I want a spontaneous experience) but don’t mind it when I’m a neutral, as it does add an element of drama.

Similar to the above, it should just be used once per call (in real-time) to check for gross errors and then crack on. 10 seconds per check tops.

[The Kraken]

VAR is fine when it gets implemented properly. English officials are just shit at implementing it. There’s a reason that no English VAR officials went to the World Cup, they’re absolutely useless at it.

[Fan The Flames]

The two goals scored yesterday wouldn't have bothered VAR at all, you could easily have instantly celebrated unhindered.

[Stud mark of doom]

19 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The two goals scored yesterday wouldn't have bothered VAR at all, you could easily have instantly celebrated unhindered.

That’s not how it works tho, is it. The whole point is that the moment is ruined because you’re not sure, even tho it all looks fine. 
 

Pretty sure there were a couple in back to back matches last season - was one Brighton away - where it only came up with VAR check being made (then ruled out) about 2 or 3 minutes later when the opponents were about to kick off. 

[DrSuess1979]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

2017 League Cup winners?

When was the last time a Lampard vs Germany or David Silva in 2014 wasn't corrected by VAR? We still have contentious decisions, just not howlers.

Weird, these guys look sort of happy, in a match with VAR. Shouldn't they be standing, waiting patiently and emotionless for a VAR check?

 

Hawk eye ? 
And did VAR checked for an offside for 5 mins for that Mbappe goal.

like others have said I prefer the joy of celebrating a goal, knowing that unless I’ve heard a whistle or seen a flag it’ll stand.

 

 

[SaintBobby]

I'm all for technology if it can be pretty much instantaneous. Goal line technology is great.

It's the delay that's such a bind. Might AI be able to give immediate off side calls before too long? If so, great. If not, let the game flow.

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, Stud mark of doom said:

That’s not how it works tho, is it. The whole point is that the moment is ruined because you’re not sure, even tho it all looks fine. 
 

Pretty sure there were a couple in back to back matches last season - was one Brighton away - where it only came up with VAR check being made (then ruled out) about 2 or 3 minutes later when the opponents were about to kick off. 

My point being specifically about those two goals, you could see with the naked eye in real time that there was no offside to worry about.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

3 hours ago, trousers said:

Yep, there should defo be a time limit of some kind. If it takes over 20 seconds to work out if the on pitch decision was right or wrong then, by definition, it couldn't have been a "clear and obvious" error.

Alternatively, maybe there should be the equivalent of "umpires call" in cricket for fine margins of error?

Umpire's call was my thought as well. There's no point worrying about someone being an inch offside, just get the howlers

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Umpire's call was my thought as well. There's no point worrying about someone being an inch offside, just get the howlers

It’s “umpires call” because ball tracking is used, nobody knows for sure whether the ball would have hit the stumps. They don’t use umpires call on line decisions, you’re either in or you’re out. Just as you’re either offside or onside. 

[Elmore Saint]

In their wonderful way - football has adopted technology without considering any of the wider usages, implications and ramifications of doing so.

Early VAR only served to highlight the shortcomings in the laws of the game  - which body part / armband / appendage is or isn't offside for an example. Add in ball in/out laws, goalie moving for a pen etc etc....The lawmakers never looked at the available technology and the laws in parallel. Hence we have an equal mess as frustration as before. 

Also, why haven't they brought the technology and applied it so it means something to fans in the stadium and at home? Why are the refs and Stockley not Mic'd up live - a la Rugby? Same for timing - you want a game with 60 mins of in-play ball? Have a definitive clock, not some arbitrary 19 mins of added time. 

With my tech-head on, I would be interested to see how AI might be able to analyse things in realtime to speed up the process.

Football needs it's spontaneity to be real to those who watch, but it needs a total rethink about how technology can help, and help at speed, eliminate the most glaring of errors. 

[positivepete]

23 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Absolutely nothing. Football is officially back. No more stunted celebrations. No more side line Mike deans. No more reverse decision crowd cheers.

Just football. Thank lordy lord for that.

(even a over zealous Bobby Madley couldn't spoil it)

When VAR was being developed and first trialled in the Dutch League, the proposal from Hawkeye was to use the “challenge system” similar to tennis. That would make it more interesting I think.

Interestingly in tennis the system has developed to an extent where the challenge system is no longer needed, and in many tournaments line judges have been replaced by Hawkeye and the line calls are made by Hawkeye and relayed to the umpire.

[positivepete]

4 minutes ago, tillerp said:

In their wonderful way - football has adopted technology without considering any of the wider usages, implications and ramifications of doing so.

Early VAR only served to highlight the shortcomings in the laws of the game  - which body part / armband / appendage is or isn't offside for an example. Add in ball in/out laws, goalie moving for a pen etc etc....The lawmakers never looked at the available technology and the laws in parallel. Hence we have an equal mess as frustration as before. 

Also, why haven't they brought the technology and applied it so it means something to fans in the stadium and at home? Why are the refs and Stockley not Mic'd up live - a la Rugby? Same for timing - you want a game with 60 mins of in-play ball? Have a definitive clock, not some arbitrary 19 mins of added time. 

With my tech-head on, I would be interested to see how AI might be able to analyse things in realtime to speed up the process.

Football needs it's spontaneity to be real to those who watch, but it needs a total rethink about how technology can help, and help at speed, eliminate the most glaring of errors. 

So, true.  Laws of the game could be reviewed in many sports with the adoption of technology, offside certainly being one of them.  As we are aware, it is the football authorities that slow down the obvious advantageous use of technology, especially in the stadium.

[EssEffCee]

11 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

2017 League Cup winners?

When was the last time a Lampard vs Germany or David Silva in 2014 wasn't corrected by VAR? We still have contentious decisions, just not howlers.

Weird, these guys look sort of happy, in a match with VAR. Shouldn't they be standing, waiting patiently and emotionless for a VAR check?

 

 

Pretty sure we do still get howlers. Didn't the league have to apologise to 2/3 clubs in the space of a fortnight last season due to blatantly wrong decisions?

 

[Whitey Grandad]

14 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

 

Pretty sure we do still get howlers. Didn't the league have to apologise to 2/3 clubs in the space of a fortnight last season due to blatantly wrong decisions?

 

Except that they weren’t.

So many decisions are ‘in the opinion of the referee’ which unfortunately seldom aligns with the opinion of the football fan.

[EssEffCee]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Except that they weren’t.

So many decisions are ‘in the opinion of the referee’ which unfortunately seldom aligns with the opinion of the football fan.

 

Pretty sure one of them related to an offside, want to say it was Arsenal involved? The league obviously felt they were wrong enough to publicly apologise. 

I agree with your point though, one of the reasons var doesn't work is because many of the sports rules are subjective and not factual. 

 

My mistake it was PGMOL not the league - https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-var-premier-league-apology-29203162?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Edited 6 August, 2023 by EssEffCee

[Saint86]

Absolutely no way we should be ditching var.

"Var gets some decisions wrong and we don't like it... so let's go back to a world where decisions were wrong all the time and huge errors were made on a game by game basis... it's okay really, we're happy gabbi's 3rd Wembley goal was incorrectly ruled out... the game flowed 🙄". 

Not to mention a plethora of other shocking decisions over the years that could have sent us down, Charlie austin's parklife rant, that doucoure hand of God goal for Watford etc. spring to mind. And those are just saints related. Which fan in the country doesn't remember our world Cup exit after lampard's goal was ruled not to have crossed the line vs Germany?

A refereeing error is a refereeing error, but choosing not to use technology that can help the refs is just idiotic.

The people asking for this are basically happy for us to lose the play off final due to a lack of var. The refs are the issue, not the technology. 

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

 

Pretty sure one of them related to an offside, want to say it was Arsenal involved? The league obviously felt they were wrong enough to publicly apologise. 

I agree with your point though, one of the reasons var doesn't work is because many of the sports rules are subjective and not factual. 

 

My mistake it was PGMOL not the league - https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-var-premier-league-apology-29203162?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Thanks for digging out the links. Most of the corrections seem to relate to a different set of officials coming to a different conclusion to the one actually on the field at the time. Again, most of these are subjective.

I’m not convinced of the process of sending the on field referee to look at a monitor. The very act of doing so suggests to him that he’s got it wrong and the more times that you look a5 an incident the more you will convince yourself that an action was deliberate and intentional. Slow motion is also a big culprit in misinforming.

[Fabrice29]

12 hours ago, redkeith said:

After the Gabbiadini offside, I was all in favour of Var. 2 strangers in the same row at Wembley had a picture on their phones a minute later showing that he was onside.

However, the way it was implemented in the uk was mental. Danny Ings having that goal disallowed for a black armband ffs. 

It should only be for big errors, like Gabbi.

12 hours ago, trousers said:

Yep, there should defo be a time limit of some kind. If it takes over 20 seconds to work out if the on pitch decision was right or wrong then, by definition, it couldn't have been a "clear and obvious" error.

Alternatively, maybe there should be the equivalent of "umpires call" in cricket for fine margins of error?

 

The time limit stuff is genuinely one of the worst theories out there about VAR. For a start not all camera angles are instantly available (which coincidently played into our favour when Djenepo handballed on the way to a goal once, the angle that showed it wasn't available for the VAR in time) and secondly I really don't think what Stuart Attwell needs when he's trying to look at a screen is a timer going down and the ref on field in his ear "time's nearly up Stu, come on mate, make a decision". He's clueless enough as it is. 

Anyway, it always makes me laugh when people moan about it ruining peoples celebrations and taking away "the point of the game which is to score goals ffs!!". VAR gave and led to plenty of goals last season, almost as nearly as much as it took away if you include penalties it gave. 

There are plenty of decisions that need correcting, you only need to watch that awful highlights show last night to have seen that, it's worth it's weight in gold if it only corrects one of those. The use of it can be better but the concept is rightly here to stay and we'll be cursing not having it at some stage because being punished by something the referee couldn't see or got hideously wrong isn't good for anyone even if it is "just proper football mate!"

Edited 6 August, 2023 by Fabrice29