Watford 1-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Whitey Grandad]

49 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I think I know where you are coming from as this does sound rather like some modern football trends are not to your liking. A lot of people would agree with that including myself. Much of modern football makes me sick. I really really hate it. 

I am surprised though that you found the facts that contextualise what the OP said on our goalscoring ability bothersome. It was just ( I had hoped) helpful info to the original point 

Football analytics have always been around.  And I do not and would not ever claim they are the be all and end all of a game either.  Players are not computer programmes basically, thank goodness! 
 

However the kind of stats that you find bothersome CAN be helpful - and are just one way, of many, to assess a match or performance. 
 

You certainly must be aware Saints measure the heart rates of their players or km covered, top speed, position taken up on the pitch etc as a guide to their fitness/recovery/ability? They wear sophisticated GPS type trackers constantly  

 

And what’s more the date generated significantly informs the starting 11 every week as much - if not more than sometimes  - RM saying “ I fancy James Bree this week at LB”. 

If we want football to stop measuring stuff I think it’s too late. 

I understand the desire for such information but a cursory glance tells you how unreliable it is.

Fitness measurements are not in dispute as they are independent of external factors but the flow of a football match has too many independent variables to enable any meaningful analysis beyond so-and-so had a good game.

As to influencing the starting lineup, that would explain a lot. As a lawyer might say, “I rest my case”.

[gio1saints]

Im not sure what you mean by “unreliable” -most of the data is readily accessible on the internet and comprises simple (as much as possible) objective measurements.
 

Such as : How many forward passes did Saints attempt, how many were successful. That kind of thing.
 

It’s not really a question of reliability unless the tracker and the analyst is bias or asleep during the match. 
 

How people - especially coaches, managers and players and now TV USE this mine of new hitherto unknown information is a different subject altogether.  I think thats probably where most people’s antipathy probably lies ( dare I say VAR?) rather than in the tech itself. 
 

Incidentally if you ( like me) fondly recall days of yore before Expected goals and so on became the norm, measurements have always been involved- Even MLT had to step on a weighing scale you know. 😂

Edited 8 December, 2023 by gio1saints

[franniesTache]

The gamesworkshop crowd have really sucked the fun out of football, basically turned it into a bunch of spreadsheets. Sometimes i wonder if this lot would be happier supporting an accounting firm instead of a football team, because they seem to love numbers and spreadsheets more than the game.

Bloody nerds.

[Patches O Houlihan]

...

Edited 8 December, 2023 by Patches O Houlihan
talking bollocks again

[gio1saints]

At age 60 I think I just got called got called a nerd! 😂😂😂😅

I’m still surprised when posters start attacking the man rather than the argument. In logic talk it’s called an ad hominem attack.

Stats have a place in the game, I’m not a massive fan of them and the way tech has overwhelmed footie - you only have to read what I wrote to see that ( but I forgot most cant be bothered with that) but it is what it is. Ergo: I must be a spreadsheet loving nerd. 😳
 

Ion : Trying to have a somewhat intelligent conversation on here sometimes is like stabbing oneself in the eye. It’s really not a good idea. But I know there are some - a quiet minority or majority who knows- that appreciate a more informed and nuanced discussion than just the usual “ Manning  is shit” or “ legohead is a prick” kind of conversation taken as not out of the norm only a few weeks back. Ah well. 

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

At age 60 I think I just got called got called a nerd! 😂😂😂😅

I’m still surprised when posters start attacking the man rather than the argument. In logic talk it’s called an ad hominem attack.

Stats have a place in the game, I’m not a massive fan of them and the way tech has overwhelmed footie - you only have to read what I wrote to see that ( but I forgot most cant be bothered with that) but it is what it is. Ergo: I must be a spreadsheet loving nerd. 😳
 

Ion : Trying to have a somewhat intelligent conversation on here sometimes is like stabbing oneself in the eye. It’s really not a good idea. But I know there are some - a quiet minority or majority who knows- that appreciate a more informed and nuanced discussion than just the usual “ Manning  is shit” or “ legohead is a prick” kind of conversation taken as not out of the norm only a few weeks back. Ah well. 

its probably more the fact that every post you make is a sermon. 

Edited 8 December, 2023 by Turkish

[franniesTache]

12 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

At age 60 I think I just got called got called a nerd! 😂😂😂😅

I’m still surprised when posters start attacking the man rather than the argument. In logic talk it’s called an ad hominem attack.

Stats have a place in the game, I’m not a massive fan of them and the way tech has overwhelmed footie - you only have to read what I wrote to see that ( but I forgot most cant be bothered with that) but it is what it is. Ergo: I must be a spreadsheet loving nerd. 😳
 

Ion : Trying to have a somewhat intelligent conversation on here sometimes is like stabbing oneself in the eye. It’s really not a good idea. But I know there are some - a quiet minority or majority who knows- that appreciate a more informed and nuanced discussion than just the usual “ Manning  is shit” or “ legohead is a prick” kind of conversation taken as not out of the norm only a few weeks back. Ah well. 

Or you know you could just go to the game, have a laugh with your mates and family, hope saints win, enjoy it when we play well and not over analyse a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around a pitch.

All this xG bollocks is utterly meaningless, imagine if we'd be quoting stats when Le Tiss was around, football isn't meant to be perfect or over thought, it's meant to be a laugh, an outlet, with human f*ck ups and moments of inspiration.

Well that and pride in where you come from.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, franniesTache said:

Or you know you could just go to the game, have a laugh with your mates and family, hope saints win, enjoy it when we play well and not over analyse a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around a pitch.

All this xG bollocks is utterly meaningless, imagine if we'd be quoting stats when Le Tiss was around, football isn't meant to be perfect or over thought, it's meant to be a laugh, an outlet, with human f*ck ups and moments of inspiration.

Well that and pride in where you come from.

fuck of mate. I'm really looking forward to where we are in the Shot creating actions table come the new year. If we can nail that, increase our turnovers stats, Bednarek can increase his aerial dual stat by 0.4 per game we've got a great chance of being third on new years day.

[franniesTache]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

fuck of mate. I'm really looking forward to where we are in the Shot creating actions table come the new year. If we can nail that, increase our turnovers stats, Bednarek can increase his aerial dual stat by 0.4 per game we've got a great chance of being third on new years day.

Most aerial duels won in the middle third of the pitch by a player under 5' 11", you'll never sing that!

E I E I E I O, it's up the xG stats for away games in the midlands on a tuesday night in the second divsion stats table we go, and we use a median range on our statistical analysis this is what we sing, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Carl Friedrich Gauss is our king (well prince)

[trousers]

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

its probably more the fact that every post you make is a sermon. 

It's the sanctimony that I find most endearing...

[goodymatt]

Will be a tough test tomorrow, their style is one we could struggle against and they are in very good form. I’m going 1–1 for this one.

[Turkish]

Just now, franniesTache said:

Most aerial duels won in the middle third of the pitch by a player under 5' 11", you'll never sing that!

E I E I E I O, it's up the xG stats for away games in the midlands on a tuesday night in the second divsion stats table we go, and we use a median range on our statistical analysis this is what we sing, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Carl Friedrich Gauss is our king (well prince)

Your shot creating actions are so shit it's unbelievable 

Our XG, is better than yours, our XG is better than yours, we average 2.4 a game, our XG is better than yours

and it's oh southampton, oh Southampton FC, we're statisically the 3rd best team for turnovers, the championship has ever seen

Oh Mason Holgate, the one and only, they said he was shit when he came from Everton, but his defensive third interception stat is championship number one

 

[Turkish]

WHo was there for Shane Longs 7 second goal? I almost missed it, saw kick off, looked down, looked up again and he was in on goal, saw it but great to be at a game to see us set a record, for the right reason for once.

[SotonianWill]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

WHo was there for Shane Longs 7 second goal? I almost missed it, saw kick off, looked down, looked up again and he was in on goal, saw it but great to be at a game to see us set a record, for the right reason for once.

It was 7.69 seconds actually. HTH. 

[Appy]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

WHo was there for Shane Longs 7 second goal? I almost missed it, saw kick off, looked down, looked up again and he was in on goal, saw it but great to be at a game to see us set a record, for the right reason for once.

Was there for that, I remember the irony of Doucoure appealing for handball after his goal the previous year. 

[Turkish]

Just now, Appy said:

Was there for that, I remember the irony of Doucoure appealing for handball after his goal the previous year. 

they did that Rocketman thing before the game that was properly cringe.

[Wade Garrett]

55 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

At age 60 I think I just got called got called a nerd! 😂😂😂😅

I’m still surprised when posters start attacking the man rather than the argument. In logic talk it’s called an ad hominem attack.

Stats have a place in the game, I’m not a massive fan of them and the way tech has overwhelmed footie - you only have to read what I wrote to see that ( but I forgot most cant be bothered with that) but it is what it is. Ergo: I must be a spreadsheet loving nerd. 😳
 

Ion : Trying to have a somewhat intelligent conversation on here sometimes is like stabbing oneself in the eye. It’s really not a good idea. But I know there are some - a quiet minority or majority who knows- that appreciate a more informed and nuanced discussion than just the usual “ Manning  is shit” or “ legohead is a prick” kind of conversation taken as not out of the norm only a few weeks back. Ah well. 

Fucking geek

[JRM]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

they did that Rocketman thing before the game that was properly cringe.

Didn't they say it was for the movie trailer? Really odd, Saints fans sang over it , forgot I bumped into you in the pub after that game! 

[Fraser Spinney]

Spoke to a Watford journalist to get the lowdown on what to expect from them tomorrow. Interestingly identified a certain Wesley Hoedt as one of their key players!

https://www.southamptonfc.news/match-coverage/possession-based-watford-set-to-take-on-southampton-at-their-own-game/

[Maggie May]

4-2 Watford. 

[redandwhitey]

That's the spirit !

I'll go for the 1-2 away win

[Vancouver Saint]

Lots of banter, very few predictions. Think this is going to be a tough one. Could break our streak I'm afraid. Sorry, don't like it myself but something says we'll lose this 1-0 or 2-0.

On a more positive note my predictions are consistently crap. 😳

[notnowcato]

Different challenge for us tomorrow. Watford will fancy themselves against us, as did Leeds. I’d love us to sneak a goal early , then see how progressive we can be with the ball. 
 

I’d take a draw if offered it now, a point here could look good at the end of the season but I think we’ll win. 

[Andrew Watson]

4 points from the 2 away games would be good. Leeds and Ipswich both have 2 tough away games as well.

[Saint Fan CaM]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Watson said:

4 points from the 2 away games would be good. Leeds and Ipswich both have 2 tough away games as well.

Yep, and promotion candidates utilise these types of games to steal a March on their rivals. Are we good enough for the win and three points whatever the score?

[Dark Munster]

16 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I personally think we are good enough to be top of this metric in this league but, and this is just a guess, we’ve taken time to “ learn” the russball system and this is reflected in our current placing.

Or RM has taken time to unlearn his russball propaganda crab system and actually have the squad play to their strengths, which (almost) everyone and their dog could see was required ages ago.

We live in hope that Saturday wasn't another false dawn.

[Chewy]

I feel strangely confident for this one - nailed on that we lose, then. I’m going 2-0 to us. ArmA continues his form and one from an unlikely source (defender - not KWP - or Charlie maybe).

Edited 9 December, 2023 by Chewy
Typo

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

12 hours ago, Fraser Spinney said:

Spoke to a Watford journalist to get the lowdown on what to expect from them tomorrow. Interestingly identified a certain Wesley Hoedt as one of their key players!

https://www.southamptonfc.news/match-coverage/possession-based-watford-set-to-take-on-southampton-at-their-own-game/

If he's one of their key players, that's encouraging news.

[Yorkshire Saint]

4-1 Watford.... can't see any other result...

E i E i E i ..... oh 

Edited 9 December, 2023 by Yorkshire Saint

[The Cat]

Good to see the M3 closed for a junction today, ffs

[Osvaldorama]

4 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Good to see the M3 closed for a junction today, ffs

Trains are always a mess, roads are always closed… love England at the moment 

[gio1saints]

I’m not travelling to Watford but am just about to collect my wife from LHR after trip to Serbia using M3 so will report if it’s a travel mess. Good luck and safe driving all Saints fans! 

Score prediction: 1-3 Saints COYS!😇

[The Cat]

13 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I’m not travelling to Watford but am just about to collect my wife from LHR after trip to Serbia using M3 so will report if it’s a travel mess. Good luck and safe driving all Saints fans! 

Score prediction: 1-3 Saints COYS!😇

She made a trip to Serbia using the M3?

And there I was thinking it ran out just before Twickenham. 

[AlexLaw76]

going for 1-1....but we need to win, Leicester have a relatively easy game today.

Ipswich and Leeds have trickier games than Watford away to be fair

Edited 9 December, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[Whitey Grandad]

27 minutes ago, The Cat said:

She made a trip to Serbia using the M3?

And there I was thinking it ran out just before Twickenham. 

Perhaps it was Suburbia 

[austsaint]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Perhaps it was Suburbia 

I'm surprised she's returned.

[waylander]

Be aware the M3 IS CLOSED all weekend between J4 and J3 for bridge demolition and the diversion via the A30  has lots of traffic lights.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by waylander

[AlexLaw76]

better late than never....Watford Presser...

• Will Smallbone back in the squad, has trained well over the last few days.
• Jack back in the squad this week. Been surprised how good he is, has hit ground running.
• He has added an important voice. He wanted to be in the squad 2 weeks ago, and now he has been putting pressure on the guys in front of him
• Have played in-house games against U21s, he has been good. He is in a good place if/when he gets in the team
• We have been incredible in the last 11 games compared to the previous 8 in defence, plus Gavin and Flynn
• The aggression and intensity of the more forward players has been good and want to see that
• Taylor and Jan give us huge amount of aggression and they set us off, they take huge amount of pressure off the ball
• Jack knows he has a big task to get back into the team, but he is a leader and he may have to wait
• We want competition and we have top talent in that position, we may have to use 3 of them at times
• I think we have good competition all over, the lads are really competing, and it is getting better and better
• They are all very professional with each other, we just cannot be a nice team, we have to be horrible to play against
• Edozie for example has been unfortunate, he comes out of the team, and the team go on a good run
• Like Ryan and Joe (aribo), they are pushing hard. James Bree is another, gutted for him, but the shape was better for Manning
• Bree also has Kyle to contend with for start, and Kyle is the best in the league
• If Ryan Manning does not keep his performance high, he knows we have a good player waiting to come in
• We have lots of games, they will get on the pitch
• We have been flexible with shape during games, and all know they have a chance
• All know that from the Skipper to someone who has not played, all can get on the pitch
• We coached the players hard, both those in the start 11 and those not. We coached the u21s very hard, so they are ready if needed
• Watford will be toughest game of the season, given their form. They are in a really good place
• their manager has evolved a lot, they are direct, physical, and play good football with good player
• We are aware of their threats, they are an obstacle and we have to overcome them
• we play 3 teams this week who are clear in how they play 
• Coventry have consistency and Blackburn are settled and will be very tough
• Players are aware of what is coming the next week and ready to take them on
• There will no doubt be scary moments against Watford, we have to ride them out
• if we match their aggression we are confident we will get a result
• We are proud of our unbeaten run, currently longest in the country and off the back of 4 defeats
• it is incredible. 
• Our motivation is to hunt those above us. recent years, we would be top 2 with our points
• Top 2 have been outstanding, but we are in the hunt and proactive
• we will hunt them every days, it is not about defending an unbeaten run, it is getting into the top 2
• Joke with Colin Calderwood, happy he is getting recognised for his work
• we were never going to continue to concede chances and goals like we did
• Colin has had limited time with players, but has observed a lot, he has been liaising with us more than the players
• We speak to him a lot, and trust his thought process and observations, he will continue to grow his influence
• He finds some of the stuff we do completely mental, some he loves
• Dom Ballard has had surgery, gone really well, he is in lots of pain
• Such a shame, he is a big talent, brilliant for England U19s. 
• He has an incredible support network with a long road ahead of him
• Up to us to ensure when he does come back, he comes back stronger, there will be lots of ups and downs
• I spoke to him the night he had the injury, and he was devastated, but the op in done now it is recovery
• No way he will be back at any point this season, for any side
• we put no timeline on it, probably 9-12 months
• He will have a chance to strengthen other parts his physical nature
• Every player wants to play more and Sekou wants to play, he knows how I feel about him
• There is stuff he needs to improve on, but he has enormous potential he is powerful and athletic
• we see the improvement but he needs to be more consistent
• We will assess the next 3-4 weeks to see how he goes
• Happy with FA Cup draw, home is great, probably get lots of stick if Walsall as spent 8 bad weeks there
• Not really thought about the cup, lots going on before that
• Depending on the game and how we want to build up, will depend if Bree or Manning will play
• Saints have not seen the best of Ryan by a long shot. He was the best fullback in the league last season
• I am so comfortable with any of the defenders now, they all offer different things
• Bree has been brilliant since pre season, he was very low, but now is full of confidence and he is ready
• He will be back in the team very soon, depending who/how we want to play
• Ryan's performance against Cardiff was easily his best game for us. He really wanted to do it against Cardiff
• He has had a dip, he felt pressure on him, big changes as this is a big move.
• He was frustrated, but he worked hard. IF his performance drops, he knows there is someone just as capable
• Shea has been great, he is very powerful and very mature for his age. He is a very quick learner
• Fantastic technical ability, he has a huge future. He has to work hard, learn from mistakes. 
• He is playing a different role and is growing, we pushed to get him from Man City, and all know his potential is huge
• Flynn has been great with Shea. Shea will end up as a No.6 I am sure, and he is learning from Flynn on how to develop attacks.

 

Edited 9 December, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[davefizzy14]

2-1 to us today - Adam Armstrong and Fraser to score - COYR

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Perhaps it was Suburbia 

Or Surbiton maybe?

[Yorkshire Saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Perhaps it was Suburbia 

Surrey?

Edited 9 December, 2023 by Yorkshire Saint

[Saint Fan CaM]

I wonder if RM will turn tinkerman or resist the urge to bring Jack Stephens back in? He’s suggesting that he may have to go three at the back (to accommodate all three primary CB’s)…if that’s the case, who loses out and what will that do to the balance and harmony of the team? My view is he needs to stick with the pairing that has been very successful over so many games and wait until one the CB’s has a bad game before re-introducing JS.

[Saint Fan CaM]

And another thing. How can RM say he’s ‘gutted’ for Bree? The lad did brilliantly coming into the team for several games to replace Manning on the left - arguably outshone him - but then he loses his place at the first opportunity. Well gaffer, it’s you that chose your mate over a player that had been ‘low’ but fought hard to excel and be a part of the teams improved performances, so don’t be surprised if he falls back into a ‘low’ place again. 🙄

[notnowcato]

49 minutes ago, Yorkshire Saint said:

Surrey?

No need to apologise

[John B]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

better late than never....Watford Presser...

• Will Smallbone back in the squad, has trained well over the last few days.
• Jack back in the squad this week. Been surprised how good he is, has hit ground running.
• He has added an important voice. He wanted to be in the squad 2 weeks ago, and now he has been putting pressure on the guys in front of him
• Have played in-house games against U21s, he has been good. He is in a good place if/when he gets in the team
• We have been incredible in the last 11 games compared to the previous 8 in defence, plus Gavin and Flynn
• The aggression and intensity of the more forward players has been good and want to see that
• Taylor and Jan give us huge amount of aggression and they set us off, they take huge amount of pressure off the ball
• Jack knows he has a big task to get back into the team, but he is a leader and he may have to wait
• We want competition and we have top talent in that position, we may have to use 3 of them at times
• I think we have good competition all over, the lads are really competing, and it is getting better and better
• They are all very professional with each other, we just cannot be a nice team, we have to be horrible to play against
• Edozie for example has been unfortunate, he comes out of the team, and the team go on a good run
• Like Ryan and Joe (aribo), they are pushing hard. James Bree is another, gutted for him, but the shape was better for Manning
• Bree also has Kyle to contend with for start, and Kyle is the best in the league
• If Ryan Manning does not keep his performance high, he knows we have a good player waiting to come in
• We have lots of games, they will get on the pitch
• We have been flexible with shape during games, and all know they have a chance
• All know that from the Skipper to someone who has not played, all can get on the pitch
• We coached the players hard, both those in the start 11 and those not. We coached the u21s very hard, so they are ready if needed
• Watford will be toughest game of the season, given their form. They are in a really good place
• their manager has evolved a lot, they are direct, physical, and play good football with good player
• We are aware of their threats, they are an obstacle and we have to overcome them
• we play 3 teams this week who are clear in how they play 
• Coventry have consistency and Blackburn are settled and will be very tough
• Players are aware of what is coming the next week and ready to take them on
• There will no doubt be scary moments against Watford, we have to ride them out
• if we match their aggression we are confident we will get a result
• We are proud of our unbeaten run, currently longest in the country and off the back of 4 defeats
• it is incredible. 
• Our motivation is to hunt those above us. recent years, we would be top 2 with our points
• Top 2 have been outstanding, but we are in the hunt and proactive
• we will hunt them every days, it is not about defending an unbeaten run, it is getting into the top 2
• Joke with Colin Calderwood, happy he is getting recognised for his work
• we were never going to continue to concede chances and goals like we did
• Colin has had limited time with players, but has observed a lot, he has been liaising with us more than the players
• We speak to him a lot, and trust his thought process and observations, he will continue to grow his influence
• He finds some of the stuff we do completely mental, some he loves
• Dom Ballard has had surgery, gone really well, he is in lots of pain
• Such a shame, he is a big talent, brilliant for England U19s. 
• He has an incredible support network with a long road ahead of him
• Up to us to ensure when he does come back, he comes back stronger, there will be lots of ups and downs
• I spoke to him the night he had the injury, and he was devastated, but the op in done now it is recovery
• No way he will be back at any point this season, for any side
• we put no timeline on it, probably 9-12 months
• He will have a chance to strengthen other parts his physical nature
• Every player wants to play more and Sekou wants to play, he knows how I feel about him
• There is stuff he needs to improve on, but he has enormous potential he is powerful and athletic
• we see the improvement but he needs to be more consistent
• We will assess the next 3-4 weeks to see how he goes
• Happy with FA Cup draw, home is great, probably get lots of stick if Walsall as spent 8 bad weeks there
• Not really thought about the cup, lots going on before that
• Depending on the game and how we want to build up, will depend if Bree or Manning will play
• Saints have not seen the best of Ryan by a long shot. He was the best fullback in the league last season
• I am so comfortable with any of the defenders now, they all offer different things
• Bree has been brilliant since pre season, he was very low, but now is full of confidence and he is ready
• He will be back in the team very soon, depending who/how we want to play
• Ryan's performance against Cardiff was easily his best game for us. He really wanted to do it against Cardiff
• He has had a dip, he felt pressure on him, big changes as this is a big move.
• He was frustrated, but he worked hard. IF his performance drops, he knows there is someone just as capable
• Shea has been great, he is very powerful and very mature for his age. He is a very quick learner
• Fantastic technical ability, he has a huge future. He has to work hard, learn from mistakes. 
• He is playing a different role and is growing, we pushed to get him from Man City, and all know his potential is huge
• Flynn has been great with Shea. Shea will end up as a No.6 I am sure, and he is learning from Flynn on how to develop attacks.

 

THANK YOU

[Jack]

Leeds winning again, it’s relentless at the top. Would be happy with another 7 point week but not sure it’s enough at the moment 

[ChrisPY]

 

17 minutes ago, Jack said:

Leeds winning again, it’s relentless at the top. Would be happy with another 7 point week but not sure it’s enough at the moment 

Burnley were top on 38 points after 20 games last season. Assuming Leeds hold on and win, there’ll hopefully be 4 team already on 40+ by the end of today. 
Feels like it’s going to be like our League 1 promotion where at least 1 team is going to end up in the playoffs with a huge points total.

[saintant]

Could be any result today. Don't think it will define our season even if we lose as we look destined for the play-offs whatever happens.

[trousers]

[northam soul]

Downes out ill.