Saints 1-2 Stoke - Match Thread

[Crab Lungs]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

Haven't we totally overhauled it this year though? Sacked the lot of them, Spors brought in his own people. The contract renewal for Stephens and the two project signings do concern me though.

But let's see where we sit in a week, then we'll know for sure what the score is. (Southampton-Nill probably)

Fingers crossed we have!

[Gloucester Saint]

3 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Haven't we totally overhauled it this year though? Sacked the lot of them, Spors brought in his own people. The contract renewal for Stephens and the two project signings do concern me though.

But let's see where we sit in a week, then we'll know for sure what the score is. (Southampton-Nill probably)

They have a lot to prove, not least to Will Still, let alone us, and have backed themselves into a very tight corner time-wise. Hope they aren’t fixed on getting their 8 hours sleep every night - needs to be 5-6 incomings and 8-9 outgoings one way or another, hopefully more on the outgoings even if the club has the pay most or all of the wages to get them out of the environment for 12 months. 

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They have a lot to prove, not least to Will Still, let alone us, and have backed themselves into a very tight corner time-wise. Hope they aren’t fixed on getting their 8 hours sleep every night - needs to be 5-6 incomings and 8-9 outgoings one way or another, hopefully more on the outgoings even if the club has the pay most or all of the wages to get them out of the environment for 12 months. 

I don't see it being that much. 3-4 tops, no more than that incoming.

I can see BBD, Edozie, Taylor, Dibling, ABK, Aribo & Suguwara out of the door. We'll lose more than we bring in simply because we have to get the squad size to a manageable level, but they need to make sure those that are coming in are better than the collective leaving. (Shouldn't be too hard if we consider BBD/Edozie/ABK/Suguwara)

Edited 6 hours ago by S-Clarke

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't see it being that much. 3-4 tops, no more than that incoming.

I can see BBD, Edozie, Taylor, Dibling, ABK, Aribo & Suguwara out of the door. We'll lose more than we bring in simply because we have to get the squad size to a manageable level, but they need to make sure those that are coming in are better than the collective leaving. (Shouldn't be too hard if we consider BBD/Edozie/ABK/Suguwara)

I suspect Fernandes will be gone, we will likely soften our resolve and shift him. Just wait for Will Smallbone pieces SFC on social media, interviews etc.

[LGTL]

Very real possibility that we go into the derby below them. Losing to those wankers would sum up the SR period of ownership quite nicely I feel. And it’s looking increasingly likely as it stands. 

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't see it being that much. 3-4 tops, no more than that incoming.

I can see BBD, Edozie, Taylor, Dibling, ABK, Aribo & Suguwara out of the door. We'll lose more than we bring in simply because we have to get the squad size to a manageable level, but they need to make sure those that are coming in are better than the collective leaving. (Shouldn't be too hard if we consider BBD/Edozie/ABK/Suguwara)

Agree with most of that, quality over quantity and no more fucking ‘projects’ although Taylor contingent on Welington injury. Might get a regular game as Manning poor today.

Edited 6 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[pingpong]

We're 3 points clear, I don't know what you are all moaning about...

[CSA96]

Just back in from the game and I'm a bit surprised by the strength of reaction today, to be honest. Well, I am and I'm not at the same time...

Our midfield had an absolute stinker, I can't defend them and I can't recall seeing a midfield three where all of them are as bad as that all at the same time. So many sloppy, underhit and mishit passes all afternoon. They continually opened up the back three to be run at by Thomas and Manhoef especially. I actually thought the back three were fine, the wing backs were contributing and doing what they could. In front was just so stodgy

We are just painfully missing that way of adding variation and unpredictability to our game. There's such a heavy dependency on Manning and Fraser at present, whereas Manning and Fraser's deliveries (which I thought were pretty fine for the most part) should be part of an arsenal of different approaches, which include playing through the No 10, diagonal runs from the striker, getting the wingers in behind, forcing overlaps etc. Unfortunately, we don't yet have those players...

I'm not putting any blame on Stewart either, that ball was smashed across at thigh height and he did what you'd ask of a forward and that's get something on it. I've not seen the highlights yet so maybe I'll feel different later, but from my seat in the Kingsland (B35) it was a bloody difficult one

We hit the post twice, forced a couple of big saves and on a different day, we come away with a win. We were easily the better side (IMO) and on another day we win that and score three in the process. But goodness me... that midfield has to tighten up, it was honking. I'm hoping that once we flex into a 4-2-3-1 the roles will be simplified for Charles and Downes and they won't feel like they need to create, as well as hold the midfield, the issues come when they start running all over trying to do multiple jobs at once and leaving too much of an expanse or over-exerting themselves and rushing into bad passes or slack play

Clock is ticking on getting people in now though. I still feel like we'll get the four I've mentioned before in (No 10, winger x2, GK) and one of the wide men will be a loanee, but it will be interesting to see if we start chasing a midfielder if Smallbone or Fernandes exit before the deadline too

I can't quite make my mind up if the international break will do us a favour or not, but I certainly feel like that's when our season will actually feel to me like it's truly starting...

[die Mannyschaft]

6 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They have a lot to prove, not least to Will Still, let alone us, and have backed themselves into a very tight corner time-wise. Hope they aren’t fixed on getting their 8 hours sleep every night - needs to be 5-6 incomings and 8-9 outgoings one way or another, hopefully more on the outgoings even if the club has the pay most or all of the wages to get them out of the environment for 12 months. 

I guess the club's plan to get promoted must be in 2 to 4 seasons as the basic for any team is to score lots of goals first, unless the target is to avoid relegation then its a draw first and maybe a lucky break and get a goal. I'm completely baffled by our game plan, 1st vs 2nd half, run the last 10 mins, pass sideways even if last kick of game. The setup and thinking is just a mess. Its like the drinks and food self service looks good on paper but doesn't work

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

I guess the club's plan to get promoted must be in 2 to 4 seasons as the basic for any team is to score lots of goals first, unless the target is to avoid relegation then its a draw first and maybe a lucky break and get a goal. I'm completely baffled by our game plan, 1st vs 2nd half, run the last 10 mins, pass sideways even if last kick of game. The setup and thinking is just a mess. Its like the drinks and food self service looks good on paper but doesn't work

The manager has stated that the plan is for "promotion this season, if not then next"

Lets see..

Edited 6 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[SWLondon Saint]

Just watched the highlights, and to be fair to Still, he said we gave them both goals and we absolutely have. That ball into Downes is a complete hospital pass, and he should never be trying to turn there anyway. The other one we should have had numbers back or at least fouled the man breaking with the ball for a yellow. But we were also really unlucky with those 2 shots of the post and also Downes completely missing that header. Overall looks like we had the better chances and could easily have won, stats back that up too, but them's the breaks.

[scumbag]

The club just feels a bit 'rotten'. 

The level of decline in less than 10yrs seems pretty crazy really.  Didn't Puel get the boot for 8th in the prem and a cup final?! And now we're sat watching this shite!  And not to mention during that period we've also been completely surpassed by clubs down here that used to play in front of 5k like Brighton and the cherries...

I do like Still though, and wish him well.  But if I were him I'd be looking at this group of players and be nervous that my job relied on them.

 

[Gloucester Saint]

5 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Just back in from the game and I'm a bit surprised by the strength of reaction today, to be honest. Well, I am and I'm not at the same time...

Our midfield had an absolute stinker, I can't defend them and I can't recall seeing a midfield three where all of them are as bad as that all at the same time. So many sloppy, underhit and mishit passes all afternoon. They continually opened up the back three to be run at by Thomas and Manhoef especially. I actually thought the back three were fine, the wing backs were contributing and doing what they could. In front was just so stodgy

We are just painfully missing that way of adding variation and unpredictability to our game. There's such a heavy dependency on Manning and Fraser at present, whereas Manning and Fraser's deliveries (which I thought were pretty fine for the most part) should be part of an arsenal of different approaches, which include playing through the No 10, diagonal runs from the striker, getting the wingers in behind, forcing overlaps etc. Unfortunately, we don't yet have those players...

I'm not putting any blame on Stewart either, that ball was smashed across at thigh height and he did what you'd ask of a forward and that's get something on it. I've not seen the highlights yet so maybe I'll feel different later, but from my seat in the Kingsland (B35) it was a bloody difficult one

We hit the post twice, forced a couple of big saves and on a different day, we come away with a win. We were easily the better side (IMO) and on another day we win that and score three in the process. But goodness me... that midfield has to tighten up, it was honking. I'm hoping that once we flex into a 4-2-3-1 the roles will be simplified for Charles and Downes and they won't feel like they need to create, as well as hold the midfield, the issues come when they start running all over trying to do multiple jobs at once and leaving too much of an expanse or over-exerting themselves and rushing into bad passes or slack play

Clock is ticking on getting people in now though. I still feel like we'll get the four I've mentioned before in (No 10, winger x2, GK) and one of the wide men will be a loanee, but it will be interesting to see if we start chasing a midfielder if Smallbone or Fernandes exit before the deadline too

I can't quite make my mind up if the international break will do us a favour or not, but I certainly feel like that's when our season will actually feel to me like it's truly starting...

Thanks for sharing, that was interesting. We have a consensus about the urgent need for refreshing the front 3, and the absence of proper wingers with pace is hindering Still. I think we need another first team MC once Aribo goes (hurry up Joe) and whether Smallbone goes or not. 

[SWLondon Saint]

10 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Just back in from the game and I'm a bit surprised by the strength of reaction today, to be honest. Well, I am and I'm not at the same time...

Our midfield had an absolute stinker, I can't defend them and I can't recall seeing a midfield three where all of them are as bad as that all at the same time. So many sloppy, underhit and mishit passes all afternoon. They continually opened up the back three to be run at by Thomas and Manhoef especially. I actually thought the back three were fine, the wing backs were contributing and doing what they could. In front was just so stodgy

We are just painfully missing that way of adding variation and unpredictability to our game. There's such a heavy dependency on Manning and Fraser at present, whereas Manning and Fraser's deliveries (which I thought were pretty fine for the most part) should be part of an arsenal of different approaches, which include playing through the No 10, diagonal runs from the striker, getting the wingers in behind, forcing overlaps etc. Unfortunately, we don't yet have those players...

I'm not putting any blame on Stewart either, that ball was smashed across at thigh height and he did what you'd ask of a forward and that's get something on it. I've not seen the highlights yet so maybe I'll feel different later, but from my seat in the Kingsland (B35) it was a bloody difficult one

We hit the post twice, forced a couple of big saves and on a different day, we come away with a win. We were easily the better side (IMO) and on another day we win that and score three in the process. But goodness me... that midfield has to tighten up, it was honking. I'm hoping that once we flex into a 4-2-3-1 the roles will be simplified for Charles and Downes and they won't feel like they need to create, as well as hold the midfield, the issues come when they start running all over trying to do multiple jobs at once and leaving too much of an expanse or over-exerting themselves and rushing into bad passes or slack play

Clock is ticking on getting people in now though. I still feel like we'll get the four I've mentioned before in (No 10, winger x2, GK) and one of the wide men will be a loanee, but it will be interesting to see if we start chasing a midfielder if Smallbone or Fernandes exit before the deadline too

I can't quite make my mind up if the international break will do us a favour or not, but I certainly feel like that's when our season will actually feel to me like it's truly starting...

*If* (and it's a pretty big if) we keep Fernandes I think he has to play as part of the midfield 2 in front of the defence. He's just not really an out and out attacking midfielder, he's much more of a 8, it should be 2 from him, Charles and Downes, with someone ahead of them. Think that makes things much clearer. 

[Cabrone]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The manager has stated that the plan is for "promotion this season, if not then next"

Lets see..

Then games like Stoke at home have to be won.

Not good enough.

[Micky]

51 minutes ago, Andy Hill said:

When will one of AA, Stewart, Downs, Archer and BBD actually score a goal this season ??  

When you see our 'strike force' written down and listed like that it's bloody scary just how bad our options are up front.

[CSA96]

5 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

*If* (and it's a pretty big if) we keep Fernandes I think he has to play as part of the midfield 2 in front of the defence. He's just not really an out and out attacking midfielder, he's much more of a 8, it should be 2 from him, Charles and Downes, with someone ahead of them. Think that makes things much clearer. 

Agree, I know some like to think of him as a 10 or a creative midfielder but I think he's more of an industrious, workhorse midfielder than he is somebody who splits a game open or carves teams apart for the forward players, although he has flashes of it from time to time

[CSA96]

6 minutes ago, Cabrone said:

Then games like Stoke at home have to be won.

Not good enough.

We don't know how good Stoke will or won't be yet. On early showing, they're decent and they have a seasoned manager who has built top half sides pretty solidly. No promoted team wins every game at home, everyone is going to drop points

[Badger]

Midfield seemed non-existent at times despite efforts of Fernandes to try and drive things forward on occasion. Downes and Charles both poor.  But midfield a victim of his 3 CB selection.

Strikers woeful. Again. 

Their second  goal, in the ground I thought Stephens should have got a tackle in rather than just shepherd the bloke. Seeing highlights it looks another in the ‘could have done better’ file for Bazunu. Shot looked easier and softer than the one he saved v Wrexham. 
 

Credit their keeper though. Why we weren’t after him in the summer is another failure by our recruitment team. 

[SWLondon Saint]

After 9 games last year, Leeds were 8th or so on 16 points having lost to Burnley and drawn quite a few including to Pompey at home, so it would seem a little early to be wetting the bed....

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Badger said:

Midfield seemed non-existent at times despite efforts of Fernandes to try and drive things forward on occasion. Downes and Charles both poor.  But midfield a victim of his 3 CB selection.

Strikers woeful. Again. 

Their second  goal, in the ground I thought Stephens should have got a tackle in rather than just shepherd the bloke. Seeing highlights it looks another in the ‘could have done better’ file for Bazunu. Shot looked easier and softer than the one he saved v Wrexham. 
 

Credit their keeper though. Why we weren’t after him in the summer is another failure by our recruitment team. 

I don't think we can play Downes and Charles together, it's one or the other for me. I'd plump for Charles as he has a bit more mobility, but having them both in there keeps the game slow and there's a lack of drive.

Like you say, Fernandes was the only one really doing it, but he was coming quite deep to get the ball. He's not a 10 as some are suggesting, so if we get our 10, go to a flat back 4, I'd stick Fernandes alongside Charles (if he stays that is), with a 10 in front of them and two wide players either side.

[Coastal]

This result wouldn't have happened had we strengthened in the window accordingly.

The board are a shambles.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Coastal said:

This result wouldn't have happened had we strengthened in the window accordingly.

The board are a shambles.

Your dugouts need a clean.

[vectraman]

Having sat at St Mary’s and watched today’s match, here is my take on it…

 

As many have said Adam Armstrong is not a 9. Please stop trying to play him there.

If Stewart and Downs are our ‘proper’ 9s why are we not playing them there from the start? Why bother signing Downs if he isn’t good enough to start. My major gripe with SR is signing ‘ones for the future’ . If they aren’t first team starters just don’t bother signing them  Our squad is full of average championship players, that we now can’t get rid of.  Why oh why couldn’t you just sign Josh Sargent as a proper 9 and done with it? Cameron Archer - did he even touch the ball today?

Having said that, Downs was constantly asking for a ball over the top to run onto. Never ever did we try it. He wants space to run into, Christ sake play the ball through/over the top to him quickly. Our midfield was so slow and unadventurous. Our horrible CB to MF to CB to MF crab football was back.  Stoke were sat back, 10/11 behind the ball, having a cigar whilst we pissed about doing the square root of fuck all most of the game.  Only Robinson would risk taking anybody on 1:1  Not once in the entire game did our full backs take a man on to get past him.
 

2-1 down and it was back to Russell Martin pass ball. WTF is going on? Hopefully Will Still will read them the riot act and get some home truths into them. Turgid, slow, careless passing, pointless (literally) football.

Boy do we need a couple of pacy tricky wingers in the side. Ditch the wanky back 5 and start playing fast progressive football.

Stoke were masters of the dark arts, and we did not a thing about it. Their 2nd goal (a proper fast break (Saints take note)) should have seen Capt Jack haul him down and take a yellow. But no, they score.  Amateur time again. 
 

QUESTION - why do we piss about with these stupid goal kicks which achieve nothing, take an eternity to get going enabling the opposition to all get back behind the ball. Where keeper and 2 defenders are all in our 6 yard box.  Drives me insane watching the slow robotic play.

You’ve got some quality Saints, but by fuck are you not showing it. 
 

For Sports Republic - buy quality or just don’t bother please. 

 

 

[Patrick Bateman]

42 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Just back in from the game and I'm a bit surprised by the strength of reaction today, to be honest. Well, I am and I'm not at the same time...

Our midfield had an absolute stinker, I can't defend them and I can't recall seeing a midfield three where all of them are as bad as that all at the same time. So many sloppy, underhit and mishit passes all afternoon. They continually opened up the back three to be run at by Thomas and Manhoef especially. I actually thought the back three were fine, the wing backs were contributing and doing what they could. In front was just so stodgy

Exactly how I feel reading this thread. I came away annoyed at the midfield and the poor strike force, but it wasn't a bad match at all like is being made out. 

[saintant]

25 minutes ago, Micky said:

When you see our 'strike force' written down and listed like that it's bloody scary just how bad our options are up front.

Keep hearing other positions mentioned but surely a decent centre forward is a must - we'll get nowhere with what we have up front because none of them are good enough. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Great post @vectraman - our players love what WGS referred to as propaganda football.

Crowd should also give them a slow handclap when they slip into it.

[Osvaldorama]

2 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Exactly how I feel reading this thread. I came away annoyed at the midfield and the poor strike force, but it wasn't a bad match at all like is being made out. 

We lost to a team that had 10 men. For a large % of the game. 
 

How could it not be bad? To me that’s as bad as it gets 

[austsaint]

6 hours ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Charles and Downes are the same player sitting deep; and all Fernandes did was run and play deep too.

So we effectively had three holding midfielders not moving forward with three CB’s behind them.

I still have faith in a midfield setup of Downes Charles and Fernandes - mind you another Lavia would be handy with his half-turns, passing through the lines ability and box-to-box qualities.  We are badly missing a Stu Armstrong “type” with his strong, direct runs; a creative 10 which Fernandes isn’t, and presumably the never-to-be-seen again Armenian is.   You realise how good KWP was with his wing-back qualities which are largelymissing now.   While the sales of Sulemana and Edozie  were probably the right decisions; starting a season without fast , counter attacking wide players is an obvious problem.      Earlier in the transfer window there were people wanting SR to push the boat out for a proven striker even if it meant a Club record fee rather than relying on Armstrong, Archer, a fragile Stewart and the unproven Downs.   Let’s not even include BBD………it’s looking increasingly like that need is more important than ever.

[gio1saints]

5 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I suspect Fernandes will be gone, we will likely soften our resolve and shift him. Just wait for Will Smallbone pieces SFC on social media, interviews etc.

Agree. If I was him, playing and losing to ten men, at home, against Stoke bloody City I need no further encouragement to get the hell out. 
 

You simply cannot get beaten at home by a team plays with ten men for half an hour and not expect a big dose of career introspection in your star players.

Mat Fernandes does not get picked to play International football if he’s playing for a team loses at home to ten man Stoke City. He does not need his Portugal Manager to tell him that or his agent not even his barber or the guy who washes his car. If a final straw were needed - which in fairness it was not as it’s pretty clear he’s going (to me anyway) then this was it. 
 

PS : upset as we all are at the defeat- and manner of defeat more to the point - sometimes a result and performance like this are what’s needed to give everyone - obviously the fans but absolutely including SR- a reality check about this squad and its prospects. 

My Three word summary:

Better. Players. Required. 

Edited 59 minutes ago by gio1saints