Norwich 2-1 Saints - Match Thread

[die Mannyschaft]

3 minutes ago, Mboto Gorge said:

This is coming home to roost as a lot of us expected, masked by some decent results at home where our far better players have blown teams away for 20 minutes in each game: Overall there is no real strategy or effective game management. Other than the Charlton game, every single away game under Eckert has been fucking dreadful 

Its turning out to be Russell Martin plus v2

[Big M]

2 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Yep. Are central defenders are so weak they let themselve be bullied by some kid who was playing League 1 football last year. None of them are dominating in anyway. Wood is an absolute unit yet he's so physical weak its pathetic.

I think it comes down to a lack of bottle. 

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, Morse said:

The problems were there and obvious in the second half v WBA. They got in our faces, put crosses in we couldn't deal with and very nearly turned around a 3 goal deficit. Norwich did the same. Our inability to stop crosses or deal with them is inexcusable.  

At least today showed (as did WBA for this that watched) that it is not the substitutions causing the issues per se. Something is happening at the half time break, motivation or something. We weren't brilliant first half,.but neither were we awful. We should have had 2 goals before HT. But the change at HT is difficult to comprehend.

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

They don’t have the manpower

Staff, workforce or resources are the correct terms

tut tut

[James G]

4 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Why are Saints only lasting out 45 mins on average? Why do other teams play the same pace all game. Saints are so inconsistent. The defending is too slow, its not dynamic, we play like its a pre season walk about. Too slow to read danger and close down. 

Will Still said the players weren't fit when he joined. There's an interview somewhere. So that's maybe an issue.

When you watch the games, you'll hear the defenders names in and around the opposition box. Then they are sprinting back, over and over. Come the second half, it looks different. Russ, to be fair to him used to engineer fake injury breaks, you'll maybe remember 

The next game, just watch where everyone is the first half, then the same second half. They are generally out of position and puff second half. It becomes difficult for the subs because there is no shape. Everyone is a random scatter, and they are trying to contain the game, badly, so they don't have to run. That's how it feels anyway.

Think about it logically, if you are losing you chase the game, but today, did you see any element of us chasing the game in the last 20 minutes. There was nothing 

[Mboto Gorge]

1 minute ago, VectisSaint said:

At least today showed (as did WBA for this that watched) that it is not the substitutions causing the issues per se. Something is happening at the half time break, motivation or something. We weren't brilliant first half,.but neither were we awful. We should have had 2 goals before HT. But the change at HT is difficult to comprehend.

Yep hence me asking earlier just what on earth is he saying to them at half time. I get the feeling he’s praising them far too much, and telling them to go out there and keep doing what they’re doing. Would figure. Problem is, it’s resulting in a huge drop off in performance levels and intensity , and a lot of this lot need no second invitation for the opportunity to relax and down tools a bit 

[saintant]

Whether we deserved anything from the game or not it's tough when neither the ref nor lino can spot a guy flicking the ball into the net with his hand. 

[VectisSaint]

28 minutes ago, Mboto Gorge said:

Yep hence me asking earlier just what on earth is he saying to them at half time. I get the feeling he’s praising them far too much, and telling them to go out there and keep doing what they’re doing. Would figure. Problem is, it’s resulting in a huge drop off in performance levels and intensity , and a lot of this lot need no second invitation for the opportunity to relax and down tools a bit 

But if he's praising them and telling them to keep doing what they're doing why don't they do it? Both today and Tuesday they completely stopped doing what they were doing, OK today they weren't doing it so well, but it was OK. Instead they came out, sat back started passing it (badly) around the back. I'm baffled.

[qwertyell]

Last four seasons we've shipped 67, 73, 63, and 86.

We're on course to concede 65 this season. 

It's been years since we've been competent defensively - and the wait goes on. 

If we want to be successful in any way, this is obviously not sustainable. 

We have some crap individuals, but we also don't seem to be defensively well balanced as a team. Lightweight, small, slow.

Not sure what the answer is other than raiding the transfer market again. We've tried multiple configurations, across multiple seasons, under multiple different managers, and the results are the same: we give up an inordinate amount of shots on our goal. 

That's not ideal when you've got a keeper who doesn't save much. 

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

They don’t have the manpower

If we had VAR then our goals will be ruled out for some reason. Also get more red cards.

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, Mboto Gorge said:

This is coming home to roost as a lot of us expected, masked by some decent results at home where our far better players have blown teams away for 20 minutes in each game: Overall there is no real strategy or effective game management. Other than the Charlton game, every single away game under Eckert has been fucking dreadful 

Bit harsh.

 

6 wins in 8 since he came in. Refreshed the whole team. Would have got a point today if the ref had seen the handball.
 

We are not good enough to win every single week. 
We looked very good first half, and I have to say I am starting to think that Will Still fucked up pre-season fitness training.  

[vectraman]

3 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

Last four seasons we've shipped 67, 73, 63, and 86.

We're on course to concede 65 this season. 

It's been years since we've been competent defensively - and the wait goes on. 

If we want to be successful in any way, this is obviously not sustainable. 

We have some crap individuals, but we also don't seem to be defensively well balanced as a team. Lightweight, small, slow.

Not sure what the answer is other than raiding the transfer market again. We've tried multiple configurations, across multiple seasons, under multiple different managers, and the results are the same: we give up an inordinate amount of shots on our goal. 

That's not ideal when you've got a keeper who doesn't save much. 

You are spot on, the defence is and has been poor for several years. The individual players are ok as championship defenders. Collectively they are all over the place, terrible positionally, can’t stop a cross, can’t mark anyone consistently - which is unforgivable in the championship. Either they are not being coached properly, they are but they don’t listen, or the lack of on pitch organisation isn’t there and it’s every man for himself. 
 

We are crying out for a wise head in central defence to sort them out and organise them during the game. 
 

Should we go up this season, every single one of our defenders who played today would need replacing in the prem. THB is the only one who maybe could be coached to a better standard. 
 

In fact of the starting side today IMO, Jander, Scienza, Azaz and possibly THB are the only ones who would be good enough in the Prem. Add Fellows to that who was injured and the extent of the required rebuild is clear. 
 

Fast, strong, fit as butchers dogs players are required. We don’t have many of those currently.

[skintsaint]

Just seen the highlights and knew AA will put the penalty that way, think thats 4 in a row going that way now. Vary it up man.

[St Louis]

2 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Its our default mode when we are in front. Rather than keep attacking we sit back, getting deeper and deeper, not giving the opposistion any problems at all. The mentality of the players is weak and passive. That includes the manager as well. 

This isn’t true since Tonda has been in. We’ve scored 21 goals in his 7 games up until today. That isn’t being passive and stopping attacking, it’s not easy to score 3 a game every week at this level! Second halves we’ve been more passive, as we’ve been managing games and ‘trying’ to not lose a comfortable lead.

As others have said, an off day today, but could so easily have been 2 or 3 up before halftime. On to the next one, which we probably will lose as Cov have been flying and beating everyone, so won’t mean we are complete sh*t again!

[Mboto Gorge]

13 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Bit harsh.

 

6 wins in 8 since he came in. Refreshed the whole team. Would have got a point today if the ref had seen the handball.
 

We are not good enough to win every single week. 
We looked very good first half, and I have to say I am starting to think that Will Still fucked up pre-season fitness training.  

Possibly, a bit harsh yes overall, but there are worrying trends in our performances . For example if we aren’t comfortably ahead by half time or 60 min, we don’t seem to have the fitness, desire, strength, whatever it is, to finish a game strongly. You can’t win enough games to get into the playoffs if you’re only capable of scoring for 2/3rds (at best) of a match and are fading ridiculously badly for the final 20-25 min.

 

It needs sorting and if he wants to be taken seriously long term as manager he needs to start being ruthless. Good start yes, but Still being absolutely woeful, and the ability of our superior players like Scienza , is making him seem better than he is in my opinion .

Also doesn’t help that he seems to absolutely love playing out from the back, which is something we were all hoping to move away from after the trauma of the Martin era, but there we go. Admittedly we haven’t made any mistakes leading to goals from it, and we seem to be a bit more sensible about when to clear our lines , but the final part of this game was painful seeing us dawdle out from the back when we needed a goal.

Edited 1 hour ago by Mboto Gorge

[James G]

13 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

Last four seasons we've shipped 67, 73, 63, and 86.

We're on course to concede 65 this season. 

It's been years since we've been competent defensively - and the wait goes on. 

If we want to be successful in any way, this is obviously not sustainable. 

We have some crap individuals, but we also don't seem to be defensively well balanced as a team. Lightweight, small, slow.

Not sure what the answer is other than raiding the transfer market again. We've tried multiple configurations, across multiple seasons, under multiple different managers, and the results are the same: we give up an inordinate amount of shots on our goal. 

That's not ideal when you've got a keeper who doesn't save much. 

Stephens has been good historically. He knows how to defend. Today he almost scored an own goal. He should know what worked for him in the past. Communicate, what works for him. Harwood Bellis played for England. He is talented. What works, what doesn't work. Communicate. Woods has done OK this season, again, communicate. 

The manager has figured out some stuff, but he's young. He's going to listen. We have three at the back, but we don't because they are everywhere. For everywhere defenders we are not fit for 90 minutes. 

A goalie will forever be as good as his defenders

Little flicks are working going forward. There is something there. It's just tailoring everything so we don't get tired.

If anyone here does shift work, when you get tired, driving a car is hard. Management is that, figuring out the solutions to everything.

We know Armstrong, Azaz, Leo and Fellows works. Make them run less. Jander is good too

 

 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 minutes ago, St Louis said:

This isn’t true since Tonda has been in. We’ve scored 21 goals in his 7 games up until today. That isn’t being passive and stopping attacking, it’s not easy to score 3 a game every week at this level! Second halves we’ve been more passive, as we’ve been managing games and ‘trying’ to not lose a comfortable lead.

As others have said, an off day today, but could so easily have been 2 or 3 up before halftime. On to the next one, which we probably will lose as Cov have been flying and beating everyone, so won’t mean we are complete sh*t again!

But it is true. Exactly the same happened against West Brom. We nearly threw away a three goal lead with a shite second half performance. We seem to think if we are leading at half time the match is won. 

[benjii]

15 minutes ago, vectraman said:

You are spot on, the defence is and has been poor for several years. The individual players are ok as championship defenders. Collectively they are all over the place, terrible positionally, can’t stop a cross, can’t mark anyone consistently - which is unforgivable in the championship. Either they are not being coached properly, they are but they don’t listen, or the lack of on pitch organisation isn’t there and it’s every man for himself. 
 

We are crying out for a wise head in central defence to sort them out and organise them during the game. 
 

Should we go up this season, every single one of our defenders who played today would need replacing in the prem. THB is the only one who maybe could be coached to a better standard. 
 

In fact of the starting side today IMO, Jander, Scienza, Azaz and possibly THB are the only ones who would be good enough in the Prem. Add Fellows to that who was injured and the extent of the required rebuild is clear. 
 

Fast, strong, fit as butchers dogs players are required. We don’t have many of those currently.

Can't see Azaz being any use in the Prem.

[St Louis]

1 hour ago, Mboto Gorge said:

Other than the Charlton game, every single away game under Eckert has been fucking dreadful 

Do you really think that? Or are you just annoyed after today? Because the majority of fans I know, and this I don’t (Total Saints Podcast for example) have been pretty unanimous in saying the last two months have seen some of the best football we’ve played in many years. We lose one game (to a handball, after missing a penalty, etc), and suddenly we are complete shit, play shit football and have a shit manager 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

[Mboto Gorge]

5 minutes ago, St Louis said:

Do you really think that? Or are you just annoyed after today? Because the majority of fans I know, and this I don’t (Total Saints Podcast for example) have been pretty unanimous in saying the last two months have seen some of the best football we’ve played in many years. We lose one game (to a handball, after missing a penalty, etc), and suddenly we are complete shit, play shit football and have a shit manager 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

I didn’t say that didn’t I? Let’s not change what I’ve actually said. Not once have I said we are complete shit, play shit football and have a shit manager, so let’s get that straight for a start.

I said all the away performances under Eckert have been dreadful other than Charlton. If you disagree with that, that’s fine. If you’d like to tell me which other away game we played well in, I’m all ears too.

I am more worried about the fact we are a non existent entity for pretty much the entire second half of every match under him, and am wondering why this is. Can’t deny that he’s made us far better than previously, be stupid to say otherwise , but the bar was very low there, still credit where it’s due he has improved us from where we were, particularly in an attacking sense and got the best out of almost all of our forward players. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mboto Gorge

[macca155]

That 2nd goal summed up all the issues. It was right in front of us, so no hiding.

Manning completely out of position allows their guy to get a cross in. Stephens loses his man, and then Bazunu is beaten easily at the near post.

You can have all the Scienzas you want up front, but if the basics aren't being attended to at the back ... then this shit happens.

Has Martin returned as a coach by the way.

[Miltonaggro]

Lots of us have been talking about the need to specifically build / rebuild a strong and reliable spine of the team for about five or six years. No fucking around in terms of keeper, centre back, central midfield or striker - build around these positions. Not about speculating, but buying quality and nous in the 25-29 age bracket and let the youngsters develop alongside these players. Harwood-Bellis would likely look a very different player alongside a Fonte or a Svennson for instance. It’s not rocket science, but our board seem determined to kill our club and their investment playing hipster Russian Roulette. Frustrating, tedious and preventable! 

[Roger]

28 minutes ago, James G said:

Stephens has been good historically. He knows how to defend. Today he almost scored an own goal. He should know what worked for him in the past. Communicate, what works for him. Harwood Bellis played for England. He is talented. What works, what doesn't work. Communicate. Woods has done OK this season, again, communicate. 

The manager has figured out some stuff, but he's young. He's going to listen. We have three at the back, but we don't because they are everywhere. For everywhere defenders we are not fit for 90 minutes. 

A goalie will forever be as good as his defenders

Little flicks are working going forward. There is something there. It's just tailoring everything so we don't get tired.

If anyone here does shift work, when you get tired, driving a car is hard. Management is that, figuring out the solutions to everything.

We know Armstrong, Azaz, Leo and Fellows works. Make them run less. Jander is good too

 

 

Stephen’s been here the whole 4 years he’s the worst defensively are you joking? 

[gallaghert366@yahoo.com]

28 minutes ago, benjii said:

Can't see Azaz being any use in the Prem.

That's why he's in the Championship.

[Stowmarket Saint]

The last 2 games I've watched live in the flesh have been Blackburn and today, so I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a curse.

A few points I took on board from today...

(sorry I haven't read back so I'm sure a lot may have been repeated)

Without a genuine winger on that right hand side, Leo has to to do so much of the work on his own on the left!  It's as if the defence didn't want to pass the ball to Fraser as they knew he'd just pass the ball straight back to them, thus killing any forward momentum down one side of the pitch! So for however many minutes Ryan Fraser was on the pitch (60 odd) we effectively only had 1 route of attack down the left.

Norwich when they did attack played "old school" get the ball in the box early from crosses football and our defence just allowed that to happen! Both their first and second goals came from not shutting down the cross. Honestly I could have banged balls into the box the amount of "pressure" Manning and Wood put on their wingers today. Pathetic!

 

Final point before I order my Chinese takeaway. Why the f*ck did we spend about what was the combined total of 10/15 minutes passing the ball amongst the back 3 and the goal keeper when we were 2-1 down! I know it may be seen as a bit basic, but why the hell didn't we knock long balls into AA or Robinson when he came on, on the right, get the Norwich defenders turning having to chase the ball under pressure. We played like we were 4 nil up in that 2nd half and honestly it was baffling/infuriating.

 

Norwich must have come away from that game laughing at the fact their defenders had nothing to do in the whole 2nd half, whilst watching our lot knocking it about like we'd won the game!

This league is a basket case this season, and other than maybe Coventry, promotion is up for anyone's taking, but games like that remind me why we certainly don't have a devine right to be one of those sides! 

Edited 1 hour ago by Stowmarket Saint

[James G]

9 minutes ago, Roger said:

Stephen’s been here the whole 4 years he’s the worst defensively are you joking? 

Longer back historically 

[VectisSaint]

36 minutes ago, James G said:

Stephens has been good historically. He knows how to defend. Today he almost scored an own goal. He should know what worked for him in the past. Communicate, what works for him. Harwood Bellis played for England. He is talented. What works, what doesn't work. Communicate. Woods has done OK this season, again, communicate. 

The manager has figured out some stuff, but he's young. He's going to listen. We have three at the back, but we don't because they are everywhere. For everywhere defenders we are not fit for 90 minutes. 

A goalie will forever be as good as his defenders

Little flicks are working going forward. There is something there. It's just tailoring everything so we don't get tired.

If anyone here does shift work, when you get tired, driving a car is hard. Management is that, figuring out the solutions to everything.

We know Armstrong, Azaz, Leo and Fellows works. Make them run less. Jander is good too

 

 

It's not 'getting tired'. You don't 'get tired' after a half time cup of tea. I don't know what the answer is, but it's not tiredness or fatigue, it is more to do with switching off after the break, demotivation.

[James G]

7 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

It's not 'getting tired'. You don't 'get tired' after a half time cup of tea. I don't know what the answer is, but it's not tiredness or fatigue, it is more to do with switching off after the break, demotivation.

Honestly, watch the next game. Look at the players, all of them. What happens in the second half. Then reply again. 

We're not running, there are occasional bursts rather than the constant of the first half 

Edit: look at the shape of the team, how it is supposed to be

Edited 1 hour ago by James G

[James G]

8 minutes ago, Stowmarket Saint said:

The last 2 games I've watched live in the flesh have been Blackburn and today, so I'm beginning to think I'm a bit of a curse.

A few points I took on board from today...

(sorry I haven't read back so I'm sure a lot may have been repeated)

Without a genuine winger on that right hand side, Leo has to to do so much of the work on his own on the left!  It's as if the defence didn't want to pass the ball to Fraser as they knew he'd just pass the ball straight back to them, thus killing any forward momentum down one side of the pitch! So for however many minutes Ryan Fraser was on the pitch (60 odd) we effectively only had 1 route of attack down the left.

Norwich when they did attack played "old school" get the ball in the box early from crosses football and our defence just allowed that to happen! Both their first and second goals came from not shutting down the cross. Honestly I could have banged balls into the box the amount of "pressure" Manning and Wood put on their wingers today. Pathetic!

 

Final point before I order my Chinese takeaway. Why the f*ck did we spend about what was the combined total of 10/15 minutes passing the ball amongst the back 3 and the goal keeper when we were 2-1 down! I know it may be seen as a bit basic, but why the hell didn't we knock long balls into AA or Robinson when he came on, on the right, get the Norwich defenders turning having to chase the ball under pressure. We played like we were 4 nil up in that 2nd half and honestly it was baffling/infuriating.

 

Norwich must have come away from that game laughing at the fact their defenders had nothing to do in the whole 2nd half, whilst watching our lot knocking it about like we'd won the game!

This league is a basket case this season, and other than maybe Coventry, promotion is up for anyone's taking, but games like that remind me why we certainly don't have a devine right to be one of those sides! 

Some players are Russballed

If you presented it to the Vatican, they would probably say it's harder to get rid of than demons. 

Overhaul needed. Un russballed players

[Viking Saint]

5 hours ago, Big M said:

We deserved that purely because having zero urgency with 10 mins left is unforgivable,yes we miss fellows but players need to get the basics right,slow passing, lack of running and bottling it against physical players is just crap.Too many individual players who are more interested in golf tomorrow and going out tonight I'm afraid,I've said for ages we needed a manager who'd tear them a new one when required, can Tonda do that, at 32...probably not and there in lies an issue, I'm not saying he's the wrong manager, I'm saying our dressing room probably has too much player power. 

Wish they'd exert some of that power and influence on the fucking pitch. Team of son-in-laws again

[Micky]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Can't see Azaz being any use in the Prem.

No problem. We're not going there. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Six wins in eight is very good. But these are the games we should be putting to bed, teams struggling at the bottom of the table.

Norwich just did the basics today, and that was enough. Players down the wing, low balls across, cheeky handball too.

After the penalty miss we looked totally lost. But the worrying trend is that we always look it after sixty minutes of a game.

Our squad depth is very horrific. There is a gulf in quality between the starting XI and the rest of the squad; and the inconsistencies from that starting XI are alarming.

No one that played today was any better than maybe a 5/10 rating, and that’s probably being generous.