Saints Charged With Spying on Mboro Training

[Hussar Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

You could argue that the use of professional recording equipment- if that is what it is and not hyperbole- constitutes the same crime as breaking into the training ground. I agree though, if it's just an intern stood near the training ground with a mobile phone and clip on mic and that's the end of the matter then that's a different matter. It's not like Middlesborough is round the corner though, this will have had to have involved a fair bit of planning and logistic to pull off so it appears to be a bit more than being a touch opportunistic. 

Its entirely feasible that in 2026 we could have an analyst based and working remotely in the north. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Hussar Saint

[skintsaint]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

That only covers one of the charges... We'd still be in breach of the other charge (i.e. "acting in good faith")...

 

Seeing as they can shorten the regulated 14 days to respond, we can just shorten the regulated 72 hours to 24 hours before a game. Job done.

[Saint Pete]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd be annoyed about it but I'd be asking the club to use it as fuel to motivate the players to win on the pitch. The fact that many of their fans are so desperate to get us kicked out makes it seem like they don't believe they can beat us on Tuesday. 

Yep, feels like their fans and media see their best opportunity of getting through is us getting expelled from playoffs post match rather than beating us at St Mary's! Although logically it shouldn't matter, I think it would help us particularly in the crazy media circus if we could smash them by as many as possible as the narrative would switch slightly to "well, they would have won anyway!" 

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

The more I think abut it though it's incredibly unlikely that a young intern would be travelling all round the country (if that is what happened) surveilling our opponents with no one knowing. Maybe it was just an opportunistic thing because he was aware that the Boro training ground was exposed.

If it's William Salt (if - his name has only been leaked by unnamed Boro sources), then I think it's very unlikely we have commissioned him (intern / graduate) to go traipsing all over the country by himself to do covert surveillance. Imagine he has an accident driving for work and the club needs to explain why he's driving to/from Coventry's training ground 2 days before a game for example.

When it broke, I don't think the club knew what had happend (possibly still don't), and so they just tried to ignore it and focus on the footy. Which is the correct approach.

And thinking about it more recently, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well - as it would only have added fuel to the story if we went up there and comfortably beat them. Rock and a hard place really... Could explain why he was delighted with how the game went... All according to plan? Take away any threat from Gibson about us having a sporting advantage?

Edited 3 hours ago by Saint86

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Saint Pete said:

Yep, feels like their fans and media see their best opportunity of getting through is us getting expelled from playoffs post match rather than beating us at St Mary's! Although logically it shouldn't matter, I think it would help us particularly in the crazy media circus if we could smash them by as many as possible as the narrative would switch slightly to "well, they would have won anyway!" 

Win 4-0 then push for the punishment to be a retrospective 3-0 loss in the first leg...

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint86 said:

If it's William Salt (if - his name has only been leaked by unnamed Boro sources), then I think it's very unlikely we have commissioned him to go traipsing all over the country by himself to do covert surveillance. Imagine he has an accident driving for work and the club needs to explain why he's driving to/from Coventry's training ground 2 days before a game for example.

When it broke, I don't think the club knew what had happend (possibly still don't), and so they just tried to ignore it and focus on the footy. Which is the correct approach.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well - as it would only have added fuel to the story if we went up there and comfortably beat them. Rock and a hard place really... Could explain why he was delighted without the game went... All according to plan? Take away any threat from Gibson about us having a sporting advantage?

It could be like one of those MI5 missions where the agent is working for the big bosses but if anything goes wrong he's on his own, they deny all involvement and the mobile spontaneously combusts. 

[rallyboy]

We have no facts yet, and I'm not sure there will be many.

Perhaps we should send a couple of players to kickabout outside their hotel then accuse them of looking out of the window at us....

#storminteacupgate 

[hypochondriac]

I think we may learn a lot about how confected or otherwise this is if we ever get any cctv footage or a picture of this professional recording equipment. If this does turn out to be a spotty student loitering in a bush with an iphone then we can safely assume that Boro have been playing the media to confect a lot of this and make it appear worse than it is. If however they manage to find the shots of the boom mic, 4K camera and a photo of all the coaching stuff in the command centre during the livestream with Tonda tweaking his tactics board in real time in response to Hellberg's instructions then some of that reporting might have some validity. 

Edited 3 hours ago by hypochondriac

[Saint86]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It could be like one of those MI5 missions where the agent is working for the big bosses but if anything goes wrong he's on his own, they deny all involvement and the mobile spontaneously combusts. 

Hah..

I think it's plausible (as others have said) that we've paid an analyst to do some work for us, and they're remote and we haven't asked how they do it 🤷. But fundamentally we still don't know for certain who is allegedly involved. And it would still be a 1 off that delivered us no shooting advantage (evidently). So hard for the efl to justify too much of a punishment.

If the club have routinely had someone going to every single team's training grounds all season then I think we are in a whole different ball game and will land a significant punishment. I would be more worried about that than any blow back from the Boro game - they dominated us for 45min and can only have themselves to blame for not winning, we very clearly had no advantage due to any alleged spying 🤷

Edited 3 hours ago by Saint86

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Agree but this complex belongs to the multi-millionaire Steve Gibson. Having splashed out all that money to build the place you have to wonder why he couldn't find a few bob down the back of a sofa for some high fencing and decent security to keep prying eyes out. He obviously didn't see it as a priority so I'm inclined to agree with the view that he's brought some of this on himself. I bet there is plenty of security at his private homes.

I saw online that they were cost cutting and sodidnt think the fence etc was important

[Dman]

41 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

If it's William Salt (if - his name has only been leaked by unnamed Boro sources), then I think it's very unlikely we have commissioned him (intern / graduate) to go traipsing all over the country by himself to do covert surveillance. Imagine he has an accident driving for work and the club needs to explain why he's driving to/from Coventry's training ground 2 days before a game for example.

When it broke, I don't think the club knew what had happend (possibly still don't), and so they just tried to ignore it and focus on the footy. Which is the correct approach.

And thinking about it more recently, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well - as it would only have added fuel to the story if we went up there and comfortably beat them. Rock and a hard place really... Could explain why he was delighted with how the game went... All according to plan? Take away any threat from Gibson about us having a sporting advantage?

what a daft thing to think. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, obelisk said:

Allow me to be the first that I really couldn't give a monkey's if the boot was on the other foot.

Ditto. I think it's a storm in a tea cup, but it's impossible to justify by any team. 

[SaintsRoyalty]

Is it just me or is the idea to spy absolutely nonsensical? Like Charlie Austin said the other day, there are 40+ games for you to watch to get an idea of how a team plays. Not to mention during a game you can sus out their tactics pretty early on and adapt. 

The whole thing lit a fire under Boro which as made these games very difficult now. Not to mention that the club and fans are now tainted for many years as cheats. 

Whoever is behind all this should be sacked immediately. Will go some way to placate the EFL.

[64saint]

Just now, Saint86 said:

 

And thinking about it more recently, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well - as it would only have added fuel to the story if we went up there and comfortably beat them.

Seriously !!!  That's possibly the daftest comment I've seen on this whole sorry saga.  

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, obelisk said:

Allow me to be the first that I really couldn't give a monkey's if the boot was on the other foot.

Absolutely this. I am more agitated by players constantly grappling each other at corners, diving, trying to get others sent off etc. than “spygate.” No, it shouldn’t happen, but there are far worse examples of cheating going on during actual games by players. I’m sure most of us can remember “Fergie time” which was basically intimidation of refs to keep playing until United scored. Where was the outrage about that? It just became a bit of a joke but it probably had more of an affect on their results than sending a kid off to look at a training session.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Ok you're saying its relevant and I am telling you it is irrelevant. Utterly irrelevant.

Ok. Consider myself chastised, I'm totally wrong. Your word is law in these parts as many of us have come to know 🙂

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

Hah..

I think it's plausible (as others have said) that we've paid an analyst to do some work for us, and they're remote and we haven't asked how they do it 🤷. But fundamentally we still don't know for certain who is allegedly involved. And it would still be a 1 off that delivered us no shooting advantage (evidently). So hard for the efl to justify too much of a punishment.

If the club have routinely had someone going to every single team's training grounds all season then I think we are in a whole different ball game and will land a significant punishment. I would be more worried about that than any blow back from the Boro game - they dominated us for 45min and can only have themselves to blame for not winning, we very clearly had no advantage due to any alleged spying 🤷

We won't have because most well-run clubs in the Championship take care of security at their training grounds to avoid prying eyes.

[OldNick]

Are we cursed, just as things seemed to be turning good that we get this! Marcus came and again we looked to be on the real up but he was snatched away beofre his time just another instance ofhow cruel it can be being a Saints fan

[LegalEagle]

I think that even with the limited amount of information as to what went on here, we are going to be found guilty of breaching at least one of the two rules.

The question is therefore, what is the punishment? There is no precedent (ignore the Leeds case for reasons stated). The punishment will depend upon the following:

1. Was this a lone wolf or was it authorised by the Club? If the Club authorised it then go to q2.

2. What did he film or record and how? On specialist equipment then not good. Supports intention.

3. How much did he film or record and for how long? For the club, shorter the better.

4. Was the recording/film passed on to the club? If so, was it used by the coaching staff? If yes and yes and the answers to 1, 2 and 3 are bad for us then we are deep in it and could potentially face expulsion from the play offs.

Everything here will revolve around the facts. The tribunal have the powers here to seek a statement from the person involved. If this ends up in court then we have cross examination of witnesses etc and the club will be asked if they did it before. No covering up in this scenario unless you want to face charges of perjury.
 

I think that this is very much up in the air here but my bet is that the club will be desperate to do a deal with the EFL. Massive fine and points deduction next season that we’re in the championship. 

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well

I'm sorry what?

Who by - Jordan Sibley? 

[AlexLaw76]

Have we been kicked out of English Football yet?

[Midfield_General]

8 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Are we cursed, just as things seemed to be turning good that we get this! Marcus came and again we looked to be on the real up but he was snatched away beofre his time just another instance ofhow cruel it can be being a Saints fan

That was tragic bad luck though - this is entirely self-inflicted by the club.

Overall, some of the mental gymnastics going on in this thread (not you Nick, just generally) trying to concoct a scenario to justify it just because it's our club who did it is really quite funny. 

There are rules, we obviously broke them. They've obviously got plenty of evidence of that (the spy in question choosing to hide and change his clothes in a hotel owned by the chairman of the football club he was spying on is hilariously inept - put it all together and they'll have security footage coming out of their ears), and that evidence will be why the EFL charged us pretty much immediately and why by all accounts we're not fighting the charges. 

The only question now is the story we put forward to try and minimise the punishment. 'Pay off the intern to take the fall and protect the top brass' coming in 3, 2, 1... 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Those EFL charges are quite funny, they are so wishy-washy. How do you define “not in good faith”?

Did a twelve year old write these rules?

[Saint NL]

I just saw that West Ham want to lodge an official complaint about the disallowed goal yesterday. If they start legal proceedings about getting relegated, and the playoff situation is still unclear, it could be a blockbuster summer in the court houses 😂

[Winnersaint]

21 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Have we been kicked out of English Football yet?

Only on social media

[Midfield_General]

14 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Those EFL charges are quite funny, they are so wishy-washy. How do you define “not in good faith”?

Did a twelve year old write these rules?

Agree with you there. 

Since when have football clubs ever behaved 'with the utmost good faith' towards each other? 

Diving, timewasting, tapping up, tactical injuries, grappling at corners, pressurising referees, selling assets to themselves and circumventing financial constrictions... the entire sport is built on teams trying everything to get an unfair advantage.

We've obviously transgressed but the notion of that rule and all the faux moral outrage is comical 

In a cut-throat, multi-billion industry that rule would have about as much applicable value if it was written as 'Pwomise to always be nice to each other, ok?'

Edited 1 hour ago by Midfield_General

[Saint In Cornwall]

hackney will play no part tomorrow

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/middlesbrough-fc/middlesbrough-fc-boss-kim-hellberg-provides-update-on-hayden-hackney-ahead-of-southampton-play-off-second-leg-8516602

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Saint In Cornwall

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, Saint In Cornwall said:

hackney will play no part tomorrow

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/middlesbrough-fc/middlesbrough-fc-boss-kim-hellberg-provides-update-on-hayden-hackney-ahead-of-southampton-play-off-second-leg-8516602

 

 

Or is he???

[Willo of Whiteley]

Just woken up, Jesus Christ the state of the timeline in regards to Boro fans.

I have honestly never known a bunch of fans so unhinged.

The bit they can’t seem to fathom is that punishment for us does not mean an award for them. 
The delusion is so funny, it’s the ultimate headless.

[Midfield_General]

3 minutes ago, Saint In Cornwall said:

hackney will play no part tomorrow

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/middlesbrough-fc/middlesbrough-fc-boss-kim-hellberg-provides-update-on-hayden-hackney-ahead-of-southampton-play-off-second-leg-8516602

 

 

I could have told you that (*taps nose*)

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Just woken up, Jesus Christ the state of the timeline in regards to Boro fans.

I have honestly never known a bunch of fans so unhinged.

The bit they can’t seem to fathom is that punishment for us does not mean an award for them. 
The delusion is so funny, it’s the ultimate headless.

They have gone absolutely mental online. Not “furious” mental but genuine mental derangement kind of mental

Edited 1 hour ago by AlexLaw76

[sockeye]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have gone absolutely mental online. Not “furious” mental but genuine mental derangement kind of mental

They know they won’t be beating us and if both of us fail to get promoted they know we will be a massive threat for promotion next year

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have gone absolutely mental online. Not “furious” mental but genuine mental derangement kind of mental

You've got one calling for police raids of our board room and forensic investigations of all electronic devices. Absolutely barmy. 

[Turkish]

15 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

During covid, didnt Newcastle skive off a game against Saints, citing the illness as an excuse and then waited till their players got better?

I thought they were cunts at the time but cant recall Saints fans asking for points deductions and sporting sanctions, unless I missed it.

Yes they did. I seem to remember the rule was something along the lines of if you had 5 positive covid tests in the squad you could postpone the game but you never had to prove that they had them. They were really struggling at the time got the game postponed and signed a load of players in the January window who were all them available to play against us.

[obelisk]

26 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

How do you define “not in good faith”?

Good question but I'd say Saints acted in good faith by putting up our alleged spy in Gibson's own hotel. Can't say better than that really.

[obelisk]

10 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

I have honestly never known a bunch of fans so unhinged.

Brexit and Nigel Fagash supporters. Says it all really.

[bender]

What no one has said is; if we spied on them to gain a tactical advantage then quite clearly it didnt work.  They tactically won the first leg.   The only reason the tie isn't over is because they couldn't finish.  We've climbed the league since January because we've played brilliantly compared to pre January.  No tactical master class.  The last time Boro were in the prem, they were a joke.  As Paul Merson said at the time "it's like they've gone to the biggest party in the world and just sat at the bar drinking coke"  F**k off Boro. 

[DT]

Someone just texted me ( la mate) incredulous that we have been deducted nine points. My heart sank. I went to the BBC and here and find no evidence of that. But the scary thing is it didn’t seem completely unbelievable. Think they’ll do anything to get their beloved Wrexham back in! 

[Dman]

12 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

 

I have honestly never known a bunch of fans so unhinged.

 

excluding all of the spy drama - did anyone else notice the weird siren they had going on when Peretz took a goal kick. 

I thought the skate bell was annoying... how on earth could you sit next to that each week. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Saint86 said:

And thinking about it more recently, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tonda was told not to go for it too much in the first leg as well - as it would only have added fuel to the story if we went up there and comfortably beat them.

In a thread that contains more than its share of pony, you have managed to reach the peak of absolute bollocks. 
 

If that is the theory you’ve come up with after “thinking about it”, may I suggest thinking less maybe your best option going forward. 

[Badger]

3 hours ago, kwsaint said:

I thought it was some kit they had been given from Mossad/IRGC/GRU?

 

3 hours ago, Dman said:

I'm told its an adapted version. Peretz brought it from his former IDF days. 

If and when Gibson or Hellburgs mobiles explode next to them, this is probably a link worth investigating. 

[Disco Stu]

18 minutes ago, Saint In Cornwall said:

hackney will play no part tomorrow

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/middlesbrough-fc/middlesbrough-fc-boss-kim-hellberg-provides-update-on-hayden-hackney-ahead-of-southampton-play-off-second-leg-8516602

 

 

Hopefully not. But we were meant to have a clean bill of health last Saturday according to Tonda so I'll take it with a pinch of salt 

Edited 1 hour ago by Disco Stu

[Badger]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Ditto. I think it's a storm in a tea cup, but it's impossible to justify by any team. 

 

1 hour ago, SaintsRoyalty said:

Is it just me or is the idea to spy absolutely nonsensical? Like Charlie Austin said the other day, there are 40+ games for you to watch to get an idea of how a team plays. Not to mention during a game you can sus out their tactics pretty early on and adapt. 

The whole thing lit a fire under Boro which as made these games very difficult now. Not to mention that the club and fans are now tainted for many years as cheats. 

Whoever is behind all this should be sacked immediately. Will go some way to placate the EFL.

It seems that the potential costs of being rumbled and damage to the club far exceeds any benefit we’d gain. Foolish in the extreme 

[Saint Pete]

50 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Are we cursed, just as things seemed to be turning good that we get this! Marcus came and again we looked to be on the real up but he was snatched away beofre his time just another instance ofhow cruel it can be being a Saints fan

Thing is, sadly this time if it's true we have done (and planned) this, the situation is all down to the club (or it's staff's) own stupidity. I still can't believe they thought it was worth the risk given the massive importance of these games and that we were favourites to beat them anyway. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

8 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Brexit and Nigel Fagash supporters. Says it all really.

Scummiest of people.

[Patrick Bateman]

3 hours ago, Dman said:

The EFL know better than to mess with Steve 'el chapo' Gibson.

(as derby found out when he tried to claim for 40m and wound up with about 3m. NEVER MESS WITH STEVE GIBSON)

TBF, we can joke with gallows humour (as fans) as to how silly this is, but I think most fans of most clubs would have loved a few decades of a Steve Gibson type. Local lad done good, saved 'Boro from liquidation in the mid 1980s, then got them a new ground and better revenue streams. Their fans have seen Juninho, Ravanelli and a few others and they've enjoyed several cup finals.  I think his only "fault" is hanging on to managers too long (i.e. Robson). 

I think at least he tries for the club - the 'missing 3 points' of the late 90s and I have to be honest with the Debry thing, WE would've kicked off too.

No idea how this current crap will play out but in an era where there are so many corrupt or just crap owners, he's the last of one of the genuinely decent ones. Easy right now to become the next Sheffield Wednesday, or Leicester, sadly. 

 

[James G]

I understand the whole spygate thing is not good, but they're getting a bit desperate with this whole public press pile on and trying to get other clubs to check their cctv.

Why not let the independent panel investigate, see what the findings are, then take it from there

I find all the noise and this whole trial by media probably worse than the spygate thing itself. 

[Mattio]

I would be happier with a verdict before the game tomorrow. I don't want potential punishment (however unlikely) hanging over us if we win.

[hypochondriac]

Look like a bit of reality might have started to penetrate slightly: 

 

"Hate to say it chaps... But I think we're in a bit of a bubble here.

The general consensus I can gather from other fan forums, social media, talksport etc is that they're more on Southampton's side than ours. As in they're more like 'Bit naughty you got caught! Small fine it is' rather than thinking this is some massive cheating scandal.

Only my observation and gut feel... But anyone thinking they'll be kicked out the play offs is away with the fairies. It's probably going to fire their players/fans up if anything."

[Toadhall Saint]

6 minutes ago, James G said:

I understand the whole spygate thing is not good, but they're getting a bit desperate with this whole public press pile on and trying to get other clubs to check their cctv.

Why not let the independent panel investigate, see what the findings are, then take it from there

I find all the noise and this whole trial by media probably worse than the spygate thing itself. 

Commonly known as a witch hunt