Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[SaintLondon]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

These clubs have bounced back / ignore the noise. We need to do the same. This will quickly fade away, except perhaps on Teesside.

Problem with this is that aside from Swindon they all had money to rebuild and from what I hear the pot is empty. 

[Farmer Saint]

8 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The mental gymnastics are in play here, much like arguing this was a lad who travelled to Boro for his own enjoyment.

Tonda is done for, he was central to cheating and we have no idea if he is any good as a manager.

His excuse of not knowing is pure filth also, he was the Assistant Manager at Barnsley for nearly 2 years - who interestingly enjoyed their best spell in years whilst here was there...wonder why.

Why do we not know if he is any good as manager? 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, SaintLondon said:

Problem with this is that aside from Swindon they all had money to rebuild and from what I hear the pot is empty. 

I think there's a potential to be a little sensationalist with those sorts of things at this stage. 

We will certainly sell players, we still have a parachute payment, and we will still be one of the biggest revenue based teams in the league. So, we have more of a chance to bounce back from this than other teams - but at this stage it's really unknown  how that bounce back is going to look. We've got one chance to make this right.

[Wiggles31]

I hope over the summer we see lots of clubs identifying spying on their training facilities. Just to tie the EFL in litigation for years to come. As for Saints I’m having a long break from them. Even hope England lose the final on penalties I’m that anti football right now. 

[Sheaf Saint]

6 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

The latest video from Mark Dennis who will have genuine club connections is enough proof of how people feel about Tonda now.

Where has this been posted please?

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

2 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

Problem with this is that aside from Swindon they all had money to rebuild and from what I hear the pot is empty. 

Hearing from who?

Sports Extra?!

[Osvaldorama]

The notion that he can stay on now is fanciful tbh. 
 

When I thought it was a one off misdemeanour I would say back him. But the extra evidence that keeps dropping has shown it really was systemic cheating. 
 

There is simply no way back from that, unfortunately. He’s a good coach but he absolutely has to go. 

[Zorba]

12 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Do you remember Leeds as cheaters? Does anyone care?

Yes, and yes.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, SaintLondon said:

Problem with this is that aside from Swindon they all had money to rebuild and from what I hear the pot is empty. 

So. We survived administration and "League 1 minus 10". I've watched Saints in three different tiers of English football, playing at grounds ranging from Old Trafford to Morecambe, some teams of international stars, some of journeymen, and then there was the Mark Wotte interlude.

I was born to this, have lived it, and will die Red and White.

[SaintLondon]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Hearing from who?

Sports Extra?!

Friend at club. Unfortunately I think I'll be proved right by what happens over the summer. 

[bpsaint]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Where has this been posted please?

 

[macca155]

Losing a clearly talented manager is another blow, but clearly inevitable.

It's a harsh punishment but Saints put themselves there. The club's response has been dreadful, they've shafted their own fans and players.

Early door sackings to appease the vultures at the gate. Then they need to take their time and make some decent appointments for once.

There are are a lot of decent youngsters still on the books, so it's a good opportunity to bring them on. Add in some grizzled experienced pros, and above all else a manager like Dyche or Lampard who can rebuild us.

 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

It's because humans fucking love rules. Love them. That new little rule from the EFL now makes it rule-breaking and thus cheating. British hate cheats, queue jumpers, etcetera. Nowt as strange as folk.

Isn't it Rule 137 or something? That's a hell of a lot of rules to be aware of.

[so22saint]

3 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

Friend at club. Unfortunately I think I'll be proved right by what happens over the summer. 

Take the administration now then, rebuild in League one without minus 10

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, so22saint said:

Take the administration now then, rebuild in League one without minus 10

it wont be administration, but we will sell some top players and replace with the likes of Baz, Downs (or people equally shite).

[Toadhall Saint]

46 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Just one thought - do we really know Tonda instigated this practice? 
 

This slight doubt is how angry he got at the Boro manager and his comment that there was plenty he wanted to say but couldn’t. 
 

Would put a totally different spin on it if the practice was established at the club prior to his arrival and “all” he did was fail to say “we must stop doing this” when he came in as a very inexperienced manager. 
 

We may never know for sure - as saints would obviously not want to suggest the practice is long standing. 

I’ll await the full disclosure from the EFL/ disciplinary committee.

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, so22saint said:

Take the administration now then, rebuild in League one without minus 10

If you could guarantee me another Markus is out there to oversee such a rebuild, then that could well end up being the best long term path... Or... It might all blow over and we get promoted to the PL next season.... Who knows...?!

[do i not like fizzy pop]

What's Cortese up to these days?

I'm joking. I think. Maybe not?

[Patrick Bateman]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

If you could guarantee me another Markus is out there to oversee such a rebuild, then that could well end up being the best long term path... Or... It might all blow over and we get promoted to the PL next season.... Who knows...?!

Shoot me down or whatever, but my only hope (Obi-Wan) is that Katrina Liebherr has enough connections to take back full ownership and try to honour the work her Dad wanted to do. She's still got 20% for a reason, there must be some attachment there you'd think. With the right advisor (!!!!!!!!) that would work.

[AlexLaw76]

Had we lost to Hull (they did the double over us), we would have effectively got a -4 for systemic cheating, and no fine

Glass half full, yes?

Edited 5 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[West Dean FC Legend]

It's funny reading this conversation, I went to school in Stockbridge, so right in the middle of Hampshire, in the 70s and I hated Leeds United because all my school-mates supported them, some had school bags with the cub badge on and wore white kit for PE. Why? Because at the time they were a good team and beat everyone, that's the only reason. One mate told me how Yorkshire was the greatest county because Leeds were brilliant, Yorkshire CC were brilliant, the rugby team at Leeds were unbeatable too - he lived in East Tytherley and he still does!

Then I moved to Swindon for a long time - so I have a 'memorable' connection with these two clubs and I have supported Southampton my whole life - perhaps all of this is my fault?

But I did get 'Club Secretary of the Season' one season and runner-up in my first season, in the Swindon Sunday League when I stopped playing, so I know how to do admin at a football club properly.

Edited 5 hours ago by West Dean FC Legend

[BH_Saint]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Had we lost to Hull (they did the double over us), we would have effectively for a -4 for systemic cheating.

Glass half full, yes?

If we had lost to Boro over the 2 legs, we would of been hit for a lot harsher punishment than -4.

[RedArmy]

How is Parsons still an employee of Southampton Football Club? 
 

Get that thick grassing cunt out of this club. 
 

Never forgive, never forget. 

[TheSoundman]

I see someone earlier mentioned NDAs for outgoing staff. 
 

For the avoidance of doubt, I’m pretty sure you can’t use them to cover illegal (rule breaking) activity.
 

If our back room team want to plea-bargain with the FA to avoid personal sanction they will, assuming they’ve got more to tell. 
 

What’s probably equally relevant though and they probably realise, is such an act would make them equally unemployable in the game. What club would take that risk?

[SNSUN]

2 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

The -4 is even more of a kick in the teeth. With all the upheaval the best we could hope for is top 8. Even that's being optimistic next season I think. 

-4 points isn't the be all and end all, we effectively have to try to get promoted over a 44 game season. Although with management and player overhaul it remains to be seen how possible that will be.

[Hopper]

Yeah I have to agree -4 isn't the end of the world in this league with the squad we have (Be it they stay or we sell and recoup) plus parachute payments. After all it's less than the equivilent of dropping points in a loss and a draw.

But recruitment needs to be absolutely spot on and that's where I worry.

[sadoldgit]

50 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The mental gymnastics are in play here, much like arguing this was a lad who travelled to Boro for his own enjoyment.

Tonda is done for, he was central to cheating and we have no idea if he is any good as a manager.

His excuse of not knowing is pure filth also, he was the Assistant Manager at Barnsley for nearly 2 years - who interestingly enjoyed their best spell in years whilst here was there...wonder why.

He has proved himself to be an excellent coach, that much is certain. He broke a stupid rule, so what? It doesn’t mean he isn’t any good. Despite everything, it is what happens on the pitch that is important and he proved himself up to it no matter what.

i don’t know if it has been mentioned, but Thierry Henry has written a brilliant piece about this on X.

I have to be honest, this is a difficult one. Spying on another team’s training is wrong. Full stop. It crosses a line, it undermines the trust that should exist between clubs, and I understand why Middlesbrough are furious and why the EFL felt they had to act strongly. Integrity matters in this game.

At the same time, I find myself questioning whether expulsion from the play-offs is the right punishment. It feels… heavy. Almost like using a sledgehammer when a precise scalpel was needed.

Let’s be clear: this wasn’t match-fixing or doping. It was analysts pushing boundaries for tactical information, something that, sadly, has happened in different forms across the game for years. 

Marcelo Bielsa did it openly at Derby and Leeds, admitted it, and people called him a genius, not a criminal. Drones, analysts in trees, whatever, in the modern game with data and marginal gains everywhere, clubs push boundaries. 

Southampton admitted it, yes, and they deserve punishment. A heavy fine, points deduction, maybe even a ban for the staff involved. But kicking the entire club out after they earned their place on the pitch? That punishes players, coaches, and fans who had nothing to do with one or two analysts doing something stupid. 

What troubles me most is the collateral damage. The players who battled through a tough Championship season after relegation, who went to extra time and scored that late goal to beat Middlesbrough on the pitch, they earned their place in the final through merit. 

Now that achievement is being erased because of actions taken by a small number of staff members. That feels disproportionate to me. A significant fine, a points deduction for next season, and sanctions against the individuals responsible, those would be strong, meaningful punishments that address the breach without nullifying an entire season’s competitive work.

Sport has to balance two things: protecting fairness and recognising that human error and ambition sometimes lead people astray. If every rules breach in high-stakes moments leads to rewriting results, we risk turning the disciplinary process into something more powerful than the football itself. I’ve sat in dressing rooms where we prepared meticulously for opponents. Everyone does. The difference is getting caught.

I hope Southampton appeal and that the final decision finds a better equilibrium. Middlesbrough deserve respect, they were wronged but the players of Southampton also deserve not to have their legitimate efforts wiped away. Football is emotional, passionate, and imperfect. 

The response to this should reflect wisdom as much as outrage. We need clearer rules going forward so incidents like this become rare, but we must be careful not to let one mistake destroy what was built legitimately on the grass.

Edited 5 hours ago by sadoldgit
Added text

[SNSUN]

Gone 9am and no sign of any sackings on the SaintsFC homepage. There are, however, still highlights of our glorious but irrelevant Semi second leg vs Boro. So that's good.

[warsash saint]

Do we really think the players are completely innocent in all this & were not aware of what was going on??  During training are we saying coaches never said 'we know club X are going to play this way'?  If they did then maybe Stephens / THB should have stepped up ... maybe they did but i guess we will never know!

[Hopper]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

He has proved himself to be an excellent coach, that much is certain. He broke a stupid rule, so what? It doesn’t mean he isn’t any good. Despite everything, it is what happens on the pitch that is important and he proved himself up to it no matter what.

i don’t know if it has been mentioned, but Thierry Henry has written a brilliant piece about this on X.

Reputationally for the club and in the dressing room he's fucked. That's the long and short of it.

Edited 5 hours ago by Hopper

[TheSoundman]

Just now, Hopper said:

Yeah I have to agree -4 isn't the end of the world in this league with the squad we have (Be it they stay or we sell and recoup) plus parachute payments. After all it's less than the equivilent of dropping points in a loss and a draw.

But recruitment needs to be absolutely spot on and that's where I worry.

Spors did say in January that we weren’t blowing our whole transfer budget in case it took us two years to get back to the prem. 

[Osvaldorama]

4 minutes ago, BH_Saint said:

If we had lost to Boro over the 2 legs, we would of been hit for a lot harsher punishment than -4.

Leicester got minus six for financial fraud over multiple seasons…

 

I honestly think -4 is harsh. Based on the above a fine. Would be enough. 
 

Watching training isn’t a big deal at all for me 

[Lymington Saint]

 

[The very right reverend]

Out with Eckert and get Dyche, we'll need that steel next season, the players also. Break the bank.

Edited 5 hours ago by The very right reverend

[sadoldgit]

3 minutes ago, Hopper said:

Reputationally for the club and in the dressing room he's fucked. That's the long and short of it.

It doesn’t mean he is crap at his job though.

[Hopper]

What's big Ange up to?

[trousers]

59 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

The next competitive game is not for another 70 days or so. The footballing world will have moved on, as will we, as will most other fans. The first couple of games there might be the odd chants but it'll be largely forgotten by August.

The skates won't let us forget it but we can hit back at them with their own disgraces such as stealing from charities.

Yep, very much looking forward to the hypocritical pots-and-kettle posts / chants from our thick-as-mince friends down the road!

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, warsash saint said:

Do we really think the players are completely innocent in all this & were not aware of what was going on??  During training are we saying coaches never said 'we know club X are going to play this way'?  If they did then maybe Stephens / THB should have stepped up ... maybe they did but i guess we will never know!

I think there are probably mixed emotions internally. I'm sure the players, being closer to this than the rest of us, appreciate that 'spying' somewhat happens everywhere and I'm sure they've experienced it at past clubs, so hearing a few snippets in team interviews is probably par the course across most teams. So I'd suggest quite a bit of their anger will be at the EFL for ripping the world from underneath them for no fault of their own.

But equally, I think they have every right to be angry with the club in relation to how we've conducted ourselves throughout this. The stupidity and blatantness of it, getting caught, trying to worm out of it and allowing the club and players reputations to be dragged through the mud in the aftermath.

So my feel is that in the main the players anger will be with the EFL, as I'm sure they'll see this as hugely disproportionate as their careers have been damaged for no fault of their own, but also frustration and anger with their employers as to how they've dealt with it. 

It's an absolute mess.

Edited 5 hours ago by S-Clarke

[trousers]

Just now, Hopper said:

What's big Ange up to?

Busy preparing for a different leadership contest I'd have thought...

[Mboto Gorge]

36 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

Friend at club. Unfortunately I think I'll be proved right by what happens over the summer. 

I have unfortunately heard this too from someone I know who works close to the club. 

[Mr X]

Bravo to anyone brave/stupid/dedicated enough to get a season ticket next year is all I can say.... It's going to be carnage 

[Hopper]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

It doesn’t mean he is crap at his job though.

No it doesn't at all but it does make his position untenable sadly.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Mboto Gorge said:

I have unfortunately heard this too from someone I know who works close to the club. 

Yeah, but your source is made up, we know that.

[Mr X]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It doesn’t mean he is crap at his job though.

It makes you wonder though as most of our goals came from set pieces 

[LegalEagle]

33 minutes ago, so22saint said:

Take the administration now then, rebuild in League one without minus 10

Not sure what you are talking about. We’re about to get in over £100 million from the sale of 6 or 7 players over the next few weeks. We will rebuild with some of that money - not all but some of it.

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, warsash saint said:

Do we really think the players are completely innocent in all this & were not aware of what was going on??  During training are we saying coaches never said 'we know club X are going to play this way'?  If they did then maybe Stephens / THB should have stepped up ... maybe they did but i guess we will never know!

I floated that hypothesis yesterday, and was duly shot down in flames by the FTP (Forum Thought Police)

As I said then, if my boss suddenly starting passing on inside information on our competitors, I'd be naturally curious as to how and where he was getting his intel from...

[RedArmy]

50 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Tonda is done for, he was central to cheating and we have no idea if he is any good as a manager.

 

Jesus wept. You come out with some fucking shockers but that’s up there with the worst of them. 
 

You can give a manager all of the analysis in the world about a team (however that’s been obtained) but if he’s not a good manager he won’t know what to do with that information. 
 

He’ll be sorely missed when it comes to the football on the pitch. 
 

 

 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

Bravo to anyone brave/stupid/dedicated enough to get a season ticket next year is all I can say.... It's going to be carnage 

 

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, RedArmy said:

Jesus wept. You come out with some fucking shockers but that’s up there with the worst of them. 
 

You can give a manager all of the analysis in the world about a team (however that’s been obtained) but if he’s not a good manager he won’t know what to do with that information. 
 

He’ll be sorely missed when it comes to the football on the pitch. 
 

 

 

If he is as good as some suggest, time will tell once he has served his ban (if it extends beyond England).

One thing is for sure, we wont find out further

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

I floated that hypothesis yesterday, and was duly shot down in flames by the FTP (Forum Thought Police)

As I said then, if my boss suddenly starting passing on inside information on our competitors, I'd be naturally curious as to how and where he was getting his intel from...

Doesn't this sort of thing go on more than we realise?

What about those leaked teams to the media 24 hours before games, how have they been got hold of? You never hear the same sort of noise around those, just dealt with internally. There are snakes in football and clubs feed info between people all the time, I'm sure of it - just to try and gain a bit extra. Bit of money changing hands here and there for an inside scoop.

But it makes how we approached it even more crazy, a camera behind a tree ffs. We were literally asking to be caught and beaten to a pulp by Steve Gibson.

Edited 5 hours ago by S-Clarke