#Spygate

[trousers]

Just now, danjosaint said:

It's just been suggested by a well respected journalist that Tonda could face a lengthy ban , wonder if its just click bait or there other things out there but not made there way into the public 

Which jouno?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Also, I think it's relevant to remember that Tonda has continually maintained that he is desperate to have a say on this. I don't know the guy personally but he doesn't strike me as someone who would say this if the info he wants to make public isn't significant. He would more likely just say he can't comment. 

There are a few things for me that don’t stack up. The fact the photo of Salt was taken from the opposite side to where their security was and from inside the grounds, that suggests someone knew he was there. The very amateur nature of it, a kid stood in a public place with his phone not some well hatched plan to stakeout with high tech equipment. There are also trees much closer to the pitch he could have hidden in rather than stand by a gate in full view of the security and gold club house. The whistleblower that has suddenly appeared is another odd thing. Of course it could well be that we’ve done it and everyone was in on it but there if it was we really couldn’t have done a much worse job of spying. 

[Saint NL]

If Tonda is out for a year, maybe one of our ex-managers like Russell Martin or Will Still could fill in? 

 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Which jouno?

All the journalists have ever said is the range of sanctions available if we are found guilty of various things. If it is found that Tonda orchestrated things then yes of course he would be subject to a length ban. Doesn't mean that's the reality or that they have found anything like that. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Saint NL said:

If Tonda is out for a year, maybe one of our ex-managers like Russell Martin or Will Still could fill in? 

 

What a beautiful thing, you know, getting the players to train like beasts again.

 

[LegalEagle]

3 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

It's just been suggested by a well respected journalist that Tonda could face a lengthy ban , wonder if its just click bait or there other things out there but not made there way into the public 

Who? Where?

[skintsaint]

[johnnyboy]

Just now, LegalEagle said:

Who? Where?

Was on talk sport just now , i think they said Martin Ziegler ? Could be wrong though as it was on in the background!

 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

Here is an appropriate response

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think what the club should be arguing is that Boro and Steve Gibson are not acting in the spirit of the game by manipulating the media to influence the narrative. Henry Winter has totally changed his opinion on how serious spying is since the Leeds affair in 2019. This looks suspiciously like Middlesbrough intervention. Perhaps the offering of a few future scoops....

[AlexLaw76]

If Tonda gets expelled...here he comes

[Toadhall Saint]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

Did we break the rules? Yes, almost certainly 

What level of sporting advantage did we gain from breaking the rules? Debatable

Is the level of punishment determined on what level of advantage we gained? Probably?

Hope your right as we did not gain any in my book - especially looking at the stats and watching the match.

But

 

from what I can see in the rules there is no mention of gaining an advantage. The assumption would be that we had but that would need to be proven one way or another as it’s just an assumption. I’m just not sure how you prove it one way or another. 

[Saint NL]

I reckon Russell could get 100+ passes per game out of Cam Bragg. Mainly short sideways ones, but think of the stats

[Sheaf Saint]

19 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

He is representing the club and filming the training session.

Yes but how does it prove we gained an advantage?

[LegalEagle]

1 minute ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

I think what the club should be arguing is that Boro and Steve Gibson are not acting in the spirit of the game by manipulating the media to influence the narrative. Henry Winter has totally changed his opinion on how serious spying is since the Leeds affair in 2019. This looks suspiciously like Middlesbrough intervention. Perhaps the offering of a few future scoops....

As I said yesterday, noise from the media should be ignored. The only people talking to them are Boro. They hate us because we’re feeding them nothing so they will adopt the Boro narrative. It’s not complicated. We could play the same PR game but we’re not a bunch of chippy northern whinging losers.

[saintant]

Assuming we are kicked out and Boro get the go ahead to face Hull in the final what happens if Hull beat them? Presumably Gibbo will come out and say, 'But surely, it's best of three games isn't it!'

[obelisk]

13 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

a well respected journalist

🤣

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

40 minutes ago, Bobsmith said:

 

This guy just seems like a massive troll. If it wasn't for the 3k posts I'd assume he was a middlesborough fan

Thanks BobSmith I don't just post what I want to believe. I post hoping that somebody might respond with something that puts my fears at rest.

[sadoldgit]

5 minutes ago, saintant said:

Assuming we are kicked out and Boro get the go ahead to face Hull in the final what happens if Hull beat them? Presumably Gibbo will come out and say, 'But surely, it's best of three games isn't it!'

Or claim that Will Salt passed on his in depth analysis to Hull as well as us so they had an unfair advantage as well?

[saintant]

23 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

It's just been suggested by a well respected journalist that Tonda could face a lengthy ban , wonder if its just click bait or there other things out there but not made there way into the public 

It's a quiet news day for the journos. Nothing new coming out of spygate so they have to invent something for clickbait. Today the Times journo has decided to fill his column with a story stating the bleeding obvious - in other words 'Tonda Eckert could face a ban'

Getaway! Tell us something we didn't know.

Lazy journalism.

[rallyboy]

Boro have clearly won the media war, we need to politely but firmly dismiss most of the crap they've been making up and the ridiculous demands they've been making.

No sensible legal mind is going to look at the allegation and believe that removal from the whole season and a potential £200m loss of income is a proportionate punishment.

 

 

[Arjen Robben]

If you look at Rockcliffe on Google maps, there are pitches behind the hotel with what look like advertising boards , this looks a more safe and secluded spot to practice secret manoeuvres than where Salt was alledgedly filming 

[Leighsterrr]

Didn't the EFL release the play off final on their official page Fri morning? I'm sure I saw that posted somewhere, and the tickets then continued to go on sale...

 

What's the betting they were asked to hold off until Middlesbrough's accusations were handed in, then laughed and said, release the Play Off final details, its a load of bolony!

[saintant]

A Boro fan is now blaming us for Tommy Conway's injury on the basis that he's lost out on an opportunity to play in the World Cup in a game that shouldn't have gone ahead. He says if we are found guilty and kicked out at their expense it makes the injury absolutely pointless and avoidable.

Tin hats on and prepare for another incoming lawsuit against us.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Boro have clearly won the media war, we need to politely but firmly dismiss most of the crap they've been making up and the ridiculous demands they've been making.

No sensible legal mind is going to look at the allegation and believe that removal from the whole season and a potential £200m loss of income is a proportionate punishment.

 

 

They only won the media war by default because we didn't enter. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

38 minutes ago, trousers said:

Anyone got any ideas on how to celebrate the upcoming 100 page mark? 

I've none of my own. Which is why I'm outside your window filming you having ideas. 🙂

[Badger]

20 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Yes but how does it prove we gained an advantage?

Does there need to be an advantage ?

The charge is breaching a regulation re spying on an opponent. Are we guilty of that, yes, or no ? Perhaps some “context” as we phrased it to be taken into account.

But it doesn’t seem  it’s a two stage test, a)did we do it ? b) what advantage was gained ?  The tribunal may reflect on that, but doesn’t seem to me that they need to. 

[Toadhall Saint]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Does there need to be an advantage ?

The charge is breaching a regulation re spying on an opponent. Are we guilty of that, yes, or no ? Perhaps some “context” as we phrased it to be taken into account.

But it doesn’t seem  it’s a two stage test, a)did we do it ? b) what advantage was gained ?  The tribunal may reflect on that, but doesn’t seem to me that they need to. 

Hallelujah 

[Reggie Dunlop]

Has it been confirmed anywhere that the individual, is in fact Will Salt or just someone that’s according to AI Looks like a member of the SFC employees?

Also mentioned that he used a card to pay for a coffee, when you pay for something on a card, does it record your name, or just the number details?

[Saintinnot]

No it doesn’t record your name 

[Saintinnot]

With a chip and pin or contactless the merchant does not have access to your name 

[Saint_lambden]

Would be the most Saints thing ever that we still play in the final and lose it. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just had a quick look on the Boro forum, seems they are doing the same here 🤣

For those from Boro reading this, surely we can agree that the Ref (at St Marys) was f-ing shite. You should have had at least 1, possibly 2 penalties, and Saints should have had a least 1 (shirt pull on Stewart). Who knows how the game would have gone had any of them been given. 

The ref was tragic as he did not have VAR to bail him out. 

 

On another note, -6 points is a huge, given Leicester got that for knowingly gained a sporting advantage for well over an entire season (and some), and also did everything they could to fiddle the process in being inspected.

As for the sanctions, The EFL have a a range to use, which does leave it to the imagination a bit. Clearly you want us thrown out and Tonda to burn in Hell. We clearly don't want us thrown out and intrigued to know the extent (or not) this took place and who, if anyone, was involved.

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Badger said:

Does there need to be an advantage ?

The charge is breaching a regulation re spying on an opponent. Are we guilty of that, yes, or no ? Perhaps some “context” as we phrased it to be taken into account.

But it doesn’t seem  it’s a two stage test, a)did we do it ? b) what advantage was gained ?  The tribunal may reflect on that, but doesn’t seem to me that they need to. 

The context must be relevant to some extent or there wouldn't be much need for a long panel. Unless we are challenging the charge of spying which I haven't seen much indication that we are. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Reggie Dunlop said:

Has it been confirmed anywhere that the individual, is in fact Will Salt or just someone that’s according to AI Looks like a member of the SFC employees?

Also mentioned that he used a card to pay for a coffee, when you pay for something on a card, does it record your name, or just the number details?

Don't be silly. We know it is him.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, LegalEagle said:

They are not kicking us out and cancelling the biggest game in the EFL calendar only 96 hours before kick off.

Who, the independent panel sitting in judgement? 
 

I imagine the logistics of the final won’t play any part of their decision. They’re independent for a reason, and this is one of the reasons. We would actually been better off with the EFL sitting in judgement imo, I’m sure that would have played a part with them. 

[millsy]

14 minutes ago, Arjen Robben said:

If you look at Rockcliffe on Google maps, there are pitches behind the hotel with what look like advertising boards , this looks a more safe and secluded spot to practice secret manoeuvres than where Salt was alledgedly filming 

You're 100% right there would be no view at all of the single pitch on the right, as the buildings would obscure it. If the first team were using the pitches on the left, then you would have a clear line of sight. 

[badgerx16]

I think the thing with the coffee was that the hotel's CCTV recorded him in the cafeteria and somebody, between the football club and the hotel staff, joined the dots.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who, the independent panel sitting in judgement? 
 

I imagine the logistics of the final won’t play any part of their decision. They’re independent for a reason, and this is one of the reasons. We would actually been better off with the EFL sitting in judgement imo, I’m sure that would have played a part with them. 

I assume they seek the opinion of the efl though for sanctions which I assume will play some part in the process. 

[Saintinnot]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who, the independent panel sitting in judgement? 
 

I imagine the logistics of the final won’t play any part of their decision. They’re independent for a reason, and this is one of the reasons. We would actually been better off with the EFL sitting in judgement imo, I’m sure that would have played a part with them. 

How independent is this though ? There must be some off the record discussions about what the EFL want out of this and also possibly some element of plea bargaining from Saints hence Gibson so wound up that he can’t be there 

[Badger]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who, the independent panel sitting in judgement? 
 

I imagine the logistics of the final won’t play any part of their decision. They’re independent for a reason, and this is one of the reasons. We would actually been better off with the EFL sitting in judgement imo, I’m sure that would have played a part with them. 

No idea how this will work, but won’t the panel make findings or recommendation on whether ‘guilty’ or otherwise ?
Any sanctions might then be at the discretion of the EFL as governing body.

[Badger]

12 minutes ago, Reggie Dunlop said:

Has it been confirmed anywhere that the individual, is in fact Will Salt or just someone that’s according to AI Looks like a member of the SFC employees?

Also mentioned that he used a card to pay for a coffee, when you pay for something on a card, does it record your name, or just the number details?

Clearly, Boro had cloned Will Salt to stage the whole thing… 

[MB]

I’ve said all along Tonda is involved, sadly 

[Badger]

Latest :

“Hey, Gibbo, let’s sort this, you and me in the car park …. NOW”

(Only to spoof for it, not to suggest anything untoward..)

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, MB said:

I’ve said all along Tonda is involved, sadly 

Possibly but can it be proved and are we going to admit to that (and he was eager to have his say so clearly there's more to it than black and white.)

[Matthew Le God]

28 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Boro have clearly won the media war

Not if the independent commission doesn't consider starting a 'media war' a good thing; if anything, it isn't acting in good faith! The sensible approach is to stay quiet in public and let the process sort itself out behind the scenes.

[Toadhall Saint]

3 minutes ago, MB said:

I’ve said all along Tonda is involved, sadly 

Proof?

[Pamplemousse]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I assume they seek the opinion of the efl though for sanctions which I assume will play some part in the process. 

Yes, hence Gibbo's statement on Friday i.e. push for the maximum sanction or we sue

[LegalEagle]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

No idea how this will work, but won’t the panel make findings or recommendation on whether ‘guilty’ or otherwise ?
Any sanctions might then be at the discretion of the EFL as governing body.

Correct Badger. That’s my understanding.

[AlexLaw76]

Some legal bod on the Boro forum giving his opinion and interpretation of what is known (not the noise) believes we will not be expelled but there is risk for Saints of the first game being awarded 3-0 to Boro, as there is precedent between Celtic and Legia Warsaw which resulted in the same thing, plus a nod to the Swindon situation.