The Spygate Saga

[sfc4prem]

3 minutes ago, KingInDaSouf said:

Quite clear that we're going to be used by the FA to show that they shouldn't be messed with, whilst simultaneously ignoring the 15 billion charges against Man City

Money is king. Always will be.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

12 months football ban would be properly mental. When Bielsa got nothing.

You're not allowed to compare it with Bielsa FFS! How many more times...?

[saintant]

3 minutes ago, KingInDaSouf said:

Quite clear that we're going to be used by the FA to show that they shouldn't be messed with, whilst simultaneously ignoring the 15 billion charges against Man City

So they are to be messed with but not if you are only a small club that doesn't generate fortunes for the FA's coffers - those expense accounts don't pay for themselves.

[trousers]

2 hours ago, richardc said:

We should threaten to withdraw from the EFL and FA - they couldnt survive without their whipping boys 

 

1 hour ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

Are we close enough to France to join their leagues? Valenciennes could be the new local derby…….

At least we wouldn't have to travel to shit holes such as Middlesbrough...

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, sotonjoe said:

They won't have to look very far. The two blokes in that picture are immediate family of one of the current Echo writers.

I knew it 

[bugenhagen]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Clutching at straws but what are the chances of the club having a hitherto unpublished 'dosier' of other clubs that have done the same thing, which they e been keeping up their sleeve if they felt a nuclear reaction was ever warranted?

After all, the did state in it's original response to the EFL verdict that they were 'offering to help set up a commission to investigate the wider implications' (or words to that effect)... Why would they have said that if they had zero evidence of anti e else doing it, anecdotal or otherwise...?

I don’t really have a problem with the club watching other teams training, more the fact that they broke it in such amateurish manner and then defended themselves in an equally embarrassing manner… that’s just me. 

But I really hope we don’t go to the point where we try to drag other clubs down with us. Fight our cause, but not like that. 

[Saint Pete]

42 minutes ago, egg said:

It's how I'd argue it. The Canada ban was 12 months, but in a situation where 8-12 games were likely to have been played.

Replicating the 12 months in domestic football puts the ban at 50+ games, which equates to 5 - 6 years of female international matches. 

That's how I see the Canadian precedent should be applied fairly. 

Let's hope our guys are switched on enough to argue it that way if FA start using the Canada precedent and talking 12 months as if that is fair. 

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Money is king. Always will be.

That banging sound is the nail being hit firmly on the head. Everything within the FA including the punishments they do or don't dish out revolves around filthy money.

[Toussaint]

3 minutes ago, KingInDaSouf said:

Quite clear that we're going to be used by the FA to show that they shouldn't be messed with, whilst simultaneously ignoring the 15 billion charges against Man City

I do feel we are a bit of an easy target, a smallish provincial club, probably not a great deal of good will towards us generally, having stunk out the premier league, and burned through 11 temporary and permanent managers since SR took over. 

[Teamsaint1]

34 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

No, I'm saying that crying after the event about how unfair or stupid the rules are, that were clear for everyone to see, is a total waste of time and totally missing the point. 

Whether the punishment fits the crime is a separate issue entirely. 

But whatever. Knock yourselves out. 

The club has been punished hard.

the rules that the FA charged him with are the exact same ones that Leeds didn’t even get charged under.

It is entirely reasonable to suggest that further punishment should be limited to a token gesture that makes the point that individuals are responsible for their actions. Punishment and deterrence for our rule breaking have been satisfied. 

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, bugenhagen said:

I don’t really have a problem with the club watching other teams training, more the fact that they broke it in such amateurish manner and then defended themselves in an equally embarrassing manner… that’s just me. 

But I really hope we don’t go to the point where we try to drag other clubs down with us. Fight our cause, but not like that. 

Nah, play dirty. It's what works in football.

[EssEffCee]

Still think people are missing the point that this rule wasn't implemented unilaterally by the EFL board.

It's all well and good saying it's a nonsense rule since we were caught doing it but the fact remains clubs wanted it put in place. And given that there's been no attempt to bin it since it suggests clubs are still happy with it?

If the majority view in the EFL was that it's a silly rule then it's a bit weird that it wasn't tabled at this year's AGM.

[LordHester]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

You're not allowed to compare it with Bielsa FFS! How many more times...?

 

[Winnersaint]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

At least we wouldn't have to travel to shit holes such as Middlesbrough...

Not sure if Valenciennes is much of an improvement.😁

[Lord Duckhunter]

57 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

If the rule was sound why is it only the EFL who has it?

Not this fucking pony again. There are catch all “bringing the game into disrepute“ rule which would apply. If you really think Premier league clubs would be ok with one of its members spying on the others, that they would shrug their shoulders & say “there’s no rule against it”, you’re a radish….

[Nordic Saint]

No specific FA rule was broken by watching a training session so all they've got is: "Bringing the game into disrepute"

VAR and poor officiating, cheating on the pitch and deliberately injuring players, rich clubs poaching young players from other clubs' academies, the obscene amounts of money spent on transfer fees and players' wages, trophies bought with dodgy money from Russia and the Middle East...... the lltany of things that bring the game into disrepute far more than someone watching a training session goes on and on.

 

A referee like Mike Dean brought the game into disrepute more than Tonda Eckert ever has.

Edited 1 hour ago by Nordic Saint

[RedArmy]

1 minute ago, Winnersaint said:

Not sure if Valenciennes is much of an improvement.😁

So we bought the French Portsmouth? 
 

Great. 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, LordHester said:

 

Looks like a key meeting of the old duffers in the FA.

[sfc4prem]

4 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I do feel we are a bit of an easy target, a smallish provincial club, probably not a great deal of good will towards us generally, having stunk out the premier league, and burned through 11 temporary and permanent managers since SR took over. 

Lots of football folk probably remember us as a club that circled the 1990s PL drain, a small club with a small fanbase. Even in the Championship after PL relegation, a club that produced young talent but was seen as generally shite. 

Sandwiched between the 1990s relegation battles and our most recent spell of PL embarrassment were the years of promotion and European nights, a time now forgotten to all but Saints fans.

So yeah, I agree - most other clubs see us as a bit of a bland, success-starved, nondescript provincial club with an average fanbase. 

Ripe for the taking in the eyes of the EFL or FA. Low-hanging fruit to allow them to retain the visage of integrity.

[saintant]

The Spygate Saga - you know there's going to be a movie made with that as the title. Probably by those two herberts at Wrexham.

[Saint86]

37 minutes ago, egg said:

I think there's similar pre planning here. Our offence looks more amateur than using drones, but the similarities are there - observing without being seen, and attempting to record. 

The scouting team forgetting to send someone on the correct day and sending the intern up a day late is the same thing as hiring a drone (and sourcing associated licences) to provide a real time overhead recordings of a rivals world cup pre match training?

Edited 1 hour ago by Saint86

[hypochondriac]

If Alfie house has anything about him he will be ringing up Tonda to get the exclusive

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Saint86 said:

The scouting team forgetting to send someone on the correct day and sending the intern up a day late is the same thing as hiring a drone (and associated licences) to provide a real time overhead recording of a rivals world cup pre match training?

Kind of although one sounds a tad more sophisticated than the other.

[Saint86]

38 minutes ago, trousers said:

Clutching at straws but what are the chances of the club having a hitherto unpublished 'dosier' of other clubs that have done the same thing, which they e been keeping up their sleeve if they felt a nuclear reaction was ever warranted?

After all, the did state in it's original response to the EFL verdict that they were 'offering to help set up a commission to investigate the wider implications' (or words to that effect)... Why would they have said that if they had zero evidence of anti e else doing it, anecdotal or otherwise...?

Because, "parsons"? 😄

Edited 59 minutes ago by Saint86

[Window Cleaner]

9 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

So we bought the French Portsmouth? 
 

Great. 

Far far worse. More like downtown Baghdad.

When I was based in Belgium I missed a train connection at Valenciennes once and had to wait 5 hours for the next one.

A truly desolate place.

Edited 1 hour ago by Window Cleaner

[WinglessWonder]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a little embarrassing to create a fake twitter account and pretend to be a respected journalistwith a "scoop" on Tonda Eckert? If people don't notice the terrible spelling first they'll probably see the fact that they generally have around a dozen followers... 🙄

[Saint Fan CaM]

So if the intern had followed Eckhert’s instruction and got up there a day earlier, would that have been outside the 72 hours and therefore NOT breaking rules?  Eckhert only needed to know if their key player was fit and likely to play.

Is that a valid defence…”the coaching team didn’t follow my instructions due to a cancelled flight and by the time I knew it was too late”?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

So if the intern had followed Eckhert’s instruction and got up there a day earlier, would that have been outside the 72 hours and therefore NOT breaking rules?  Eckhert only needed to know if their key player was fit and likely to play.

Is that a valid defence…”the coaching team didn’t follow my instructions due to a cancelled flight and by the time I knew it was too late”?

Give it up.

[Saint86]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Not this fucking pony again. There are catch all “bringing the game into disrepute“ rule which would apply. If you really think Premier league clubs would be ok with one of its members spying on the others, that they would shrug their shoulders & say “there’s no rule against it”, you’re a radish….

A rule Bielsa wasn't charged under - so to jump to a huge sanction for it would be ludicrous and wide open to a challenge.

He'll get 2-4games tops.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

12 months football ban would be properly mental. When Bielsa got nothing.

It will never be 12 months.

Parsons will speak up again, making it 24 at least, on the back of his other disrepute confessions. 🙂

[pingpong]

22 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Not this fucking pony again. There are catch all “bringing the game into disrepute“ rule which would apply. If you really think Premier league clubs would be ok with one of its members spying on the others, that they would shrug their shoulders & say “there’s no rule against it”, you’re a radish….

It's not unknown for some prem teams to live stream their training on the Friday before the game.

[qwertyell]

Irrespective of the outcome (whenever that may be, after all the appeals, posturing, and impotent rage have been exhausted), my opinion (for what it's worth) hasn't changed since May: everyone involved in this amateurish debacle should've been punted into the sun. 

This wasn't one man's "mistake" - numerous people were in on it (even those that no longer worked for us), endorsed it, reportedly joked about it. All watched over by a Sporting Director who was either completely oblivious to the goings on at the club he's supposed to be watching over, or has worked hard behind the scenes to keep his name out of the scandal, and a CEO, who is at least credibily ignorant, given that he appears to know fuck all about anything at any given moment. 

A culture of cheating, arrogance, and incompetence blew up spectacularly in our faces, caused enormous damage to the club on and off the field - and continues to do so. A hard reset should've been the most obvious way of drawing a line in the sand and trying to move forwards: cut out the rot, start again afresh. Yes, it would've been challenging, and we'd be losing some decent people, but we would've had two months to settle things down before the season commenced and we could concentrate on the football alone. Now we're facing a mid-season upheaval, stalked by a perpetual cloud of uncertainty. We could've knocked it all on the head months ago. 

Protecting the club should've been the board's priority. Not getting promoted last season was damaging. Not getting promoted this season will be even more damaging. Prioritising instead protecting the guy whose actions were the reason we didn't get promoted, knowing full well that there were further charges impending that would almost certainly have significant negative effects on this season's promotion push was a reckless gamble that seems destined to fail, like everything else they do. Allowing the issue to spill over into this season, beyond the points deduction, and imagining we'll just power through it and acheive our goals anyway is pure hubris. 

Whether Tonda is a promising manager or not, the rules are silly or not, the punishment excessive or not, we're the real victims or not, is neither here nor there. We're in a crappy situation of our own making, and the decisions that needed to be made to claw our way out of it have only burrowed us deeper into the mire. 

Ironically, appointing Tonda is about the only good decision Sport Republic have ever made - but even that has ended up with us in a worse position than where we started.

They really can't do right for doing wrong. 

 

[Winnersaint]

14 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

So if the intern had followed Eckhert’s instruction and got up there a day earlier, would that have been outside the 72 hours and therefore NOT breaking rules?  Eckhert only needed to know if their key player was fit and likely to play.

Still reckon the bank holiday played a part in the mistiming.

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Depressingly it’ll probably be like this. Chelsea get away with absolutely nothing for a decade of crime that won them titles, and the whole world including the media just shrugs. Little old Southampton watch some training and we get the book thrown at us, writing off two seasons. 

Spygate is something tangible FA and EFL can punish, where as Man City and Chelsea are just accountancy mistakes that won't ever get the same sanctions. No one cares about clubs cooking the books in media. Other dont care either I haven't seen any other club complain or create a media hate campaign about City. We dont have £250bn either

[West end Saints]

Also worth remembering,

People say Tonda hasn't been punished yet, this is about him, it also applies to a lesser degree the other way around for any mitigation, this is only about his actions.

He is clearly the one at fault, but any punishment will only be for his direct involvement - anything he didn't personally condone / instruct , anyone taking anything further to impress etc can't be included.

I don't know whether that will help him in the slightest, as it maybe it's 100% his fault, but just a thought.

Also, I notice people getting set on Canada's example - why is this more relevant than Bielsa? 

 

Edited 31 minutes ago by West end Saints

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

The scouting team forgetting to send someone on the correct day and sending the intern up a day late is the same thing as hiring a drone (and sourcing associated licences) to provide a real time overhead recordings of a rivals world cup pre match training?

Forgetting, my arse. However you cut it, we, as per Canada, spied on training to gain an advantage, and filmed or tried to film it surreptitiously. The similarities are clear as day... unless you're a Saints fan who refuses to acknowledge them. 

 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Spygate is something tangible FA and EFL can punish, where as Man City and Chelsea are just accountancy mistakes that won't ever get the same sanctions. No one cares about clubs cooking the books in media. Other dont care either I haven't seen any other club complain or create a media hate campaign about City. We dont have £250bn either

It's not a sexy story that captures the imagination in the way that spygate does. 

[hypochondriac]

At least when this is done and dusted we can stop talking about how it wasn't really his fault when you look at it from a different angle.

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, Winnersaint said:

Still reckon the bank holiday played a part in the mistiming.

How does this make a difference?

[Winnersaint]

26 minutes ago, Window Cleaner said:

Far far worse. More like downtown Baghdad.

When I was based in Belgium I missed a train connection at Valenciennes once and had to wait 5 hours for the next one.

A truly desolate place.

Yes NE France and NE England have a lot in common. Both very post-industrial. You can still see coal mining spoil heaps from the motorway.

Edited 41 minutes ago by Winnersaint

[Winnersaint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

How does this make a difference?

Its kind of tongue in cheek to be fair, but the Monday was May Bank Holiday. Maybe the Intern forgot about the extra day?

[Window Cleaner]

6 minutes ago, Winnersaint said:

Yes NE France and NE England have a lot in common. Both very post-industrial. You can still see coal mining spoil heaps from the motorway.

Terrils, les montagnes du Nord.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Window Cleaner

[Saint86]

18 minutes ago, egg said:

Forgetting, my arse. However you cut it, we, as per Canada, spied on training to gain an advantage, and filmed or tried to film it surreptitiously. The similarities are clear as day... unless you're a Saints fan who refuses to acknowledge them. 

 

Respectfully no. If Eckert actually instructed them to scout within the rules, but then they cocked it up and went a day late and breached the window off of their own backs, then its obviously very different to eckert deliberately instructing them to break the rules and having a plan in place to actively cheat (as per canada and their drone). None of us know the truth, but it would perhaps explain the stories about it being a lone employee who had breached the rules. And a young lad with a mobile phone down the wrong end of a training ground does fit the narrative of a junior employee cocking up and trying to get his work done however he can to make it up.

This is a hearing about Eckert's conduct ultimately - If he instructed the scouting for Middlesbrough within the legal time period, and not in a period that breached the rules, it is relevant - The FA need actual evidence that he egregiously broke the rules to give him a significant punishment. Or at least, that is how it should work.

Edited 26 minutes ago by Saint86

[Window Cleaner]

2 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Respectfully no. If Eckert actually instructed them to scout within the rules, but then they cocked it up and went a day late and breached the window off of their own backs, then its obviously very different to eckert deliberately instructing them to break the rules and having a plan in place to actively cheat (as per canada and their drone). None of us know the truth, but it would perhaps explain the stories about it being a lone employee who had breached the rules. And a young lad with a mobile phone down the wrong end of a training ground does fit the narrative of a junior employee cocking up and trying to get his work done however he can to make it up.

This is a hearing about Eckert's conduct ultimately - If he instructed the scouting for Middlesbrough within the legal time period, and not in a period that breached the rules, it is relevant.

Eckert said he didn't know that rule so....

[gallaghert366@yahoo.com]

This reminds me of an old advert on TV where a customer wants to know when his order will be ready. The shopkeeper said to his assistant, "Tell him Thursday but don't tell him which Thursday'.

[Toussaint]

38 minutes ago, pingpong said:

It's not unknown for some prem teams to live stream their training on the Friday before the game.

Yes, but if your the opposing team you wouldn’t be allowed to watch it. That would be disreputable. 

[jrobsbigshorts]

26 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

 

Prioritising instead protecting the guy whose actions were the reason we didn't get promoted, knowing full well that there were further charges impending that would almost certainly have significant negative effects on this season's promotion push was a reckless gamble that seems destined to fail

I enjoyed your post and agree it was a gamble but I see it as them prioritising the guy who nearly got us promoted and was best placed to do it this season , I've been firmly in the keep Tonda camp and I was pleasantly surprised when Dragan backed him , it was a bold / arrogant move , let's see , IF we get to keep him it will be the genius ballsy move from the owner if we don't then Tonda goes to Germany and gets the Bayern job by the time he's 40 and our club are punished again by losing their manager mid season 

[benjii]

10 minutes ago, Window Cleaner said:

Eckert said he didn't know that rule so....

It doesn't matter.

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Respectfully no. If Eckert actually instructed them to scout within the rules, but then they cocked it up and went a day late and breached the window off of their own backs, then its obviously very different to eckert deliberately instructing them to break the rules and having a plan in place to actively cheat (as per canada and their drone). None of us know the truth, but it would perhaps explain the stories about it being a lone employee who had breached the rules. And a young lad with a mobile phone down the wrong end of a training ground does fit the narrative of a junior employee cocking up and trying to get his work done however he can to make it up.

This is a hearing about Eckert's conduct ultimately - If he instructed the scouting for Middlesbrough within the legal time period, and not in a period that breached the rules, it is relevant - The FA need actual evidence that he egregiously broke the rules to give him a significant punishment. Or at least, that is how it should work.

You mean this junior employee who "cocked up", costing us what it did, and then given a contract. That junior employee? The optics of that are terrible...if he cocked up, he should have been binned, and his evidence would have been that of a scorned employee. 

As you say though, you don't actually know what happened, me neither. 

One breach being a mistake, barely believeable, but okay let's roll with it, but we admitted 3 breaches. Three.

And let's not forget that this EFL found (and we can't go behind that finding) that this was a top down instruction, and given that Tonda is in the FA dock, it's reasonable to assume that's the source of the top down instruction. 

Let's see what the FA say, but that it hasn't been done and dusted before now suggests that there's been a bit going on behind the scenes. 

 

[Lighthouse]

54 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

So if the intern had followed Eckhert’s instruction and got up there a day earlier, would that have been outside the 72 hours and therefore NOT breaking rules?  Eckhert only needed to know if their key player was fit and likely to play.

Is that a valid defence…”the coaching team didn’t follow my instructions due to a cancelled flight and by the time I knew it was too late”?

I’m not convinced that arguing one of our interns missed his flight up to Eastleigh is going to have them convinced TBH.