All things Labour Party

What is great about this, is that anyone with three quid can participate and feel a part of the banishment of the Labour party to the political wilderness for the next 10 years. At last, this bunch of hypocritical career politicians and their union dinosaur chums will be able to demonstrate that they are all neo-Marxist ideology with no grounding in the new realities of the classless society we have in the UK, from a position where they can no longer do any further damage to the economy and society in general.

The Tories will set about representing the new, socially mobile, working/middle class and make a difference, if they have any sense and Jezbollah will be skewered weekly at PM's question time if we can get him elected leader. A slow death to this horrible political party that brought us financial ruin, child abuse in Rotherham and an uncontrolled immigration policy, is all they deserve.

they can no longer do any further damage to the economy and society in general..... A slow death to this horrible political party that brought us financial ruin, child abuse in Rotherham and an uncontrolled immigration policy, is all they deserve.

Paid off your insolvency debts yet?

So we have the laughable situation where anyone can pay £3 and have a vote and an mp on the ballot, looking like he's going to win, that only qualified because of " borrowed" nominations. To think some wanted these clowns to run the country, they can't even run a leadership race. A basic principle of political leadership is you have to carry the confidence of many MPs. Its why the Tories only sent 2 MPs to the membership , its why labour have this threshold . By manipulating JC onto the ballot they could end up with a leader with only a handful of MPs supporting him,and a vote that was gerrymandered for £3 . Did nobody realise this, are they that stupid? Its complete and utter incompetence, thank god they don't run the country.

The Tories will set about representing the new, socially mobile, working/middle class

..... the classless society we have in the UK,....

LOL

What is great about this, is that anyone with three quid can participate and feel a part of the banishment of the Labour party to the political wilderness for the next 10 years. At last, this bunch of hypocritical career politicians and their union dinosaur chums will be able to demonstrate that they are all neo-Marxist ideology with no grounding in the new realities of the classless society we have in the UK, from a position where they can no longer do any further damage to the economy and society in general.

The Tories will set about representing the new, socially mobile, working/middle class and make a difference, if they have any sense and Jezbollah will be skewered weekly at PM's question time if we can get him elected leader. A slow death to this horrible political party that brought us financial ruin, child abuse in Rotherham and an uncontrolled immigration policy, is all they deserve.

3/10.

Two words; Miliband. Ed.

 

The labour hierarchy know they're in for the long haul. Corbyn will do just fine as the next sacrificial lamb to the slaughter, then they'll probably get David Miliband to ride in on his white charger for the election after next.

I don't think so, that was Ed's job. All Corbyn will do is rip the party apart. Not sure it would recover.

I don't think so, that was Ed's job. All Corbyn will do is rip the party apart. Not sure it would recover.

I'm not sure it should. Britain desperately needs a proper social democratic party and the old duffers with their fingernails desperately clinging to the class war and the union "victories" of the seventies have been preventing it for far too long.

The Labour Party did it's job well 50 years ago. But we don't send children up chimneys or miners down pits any more.

I'm not sure it should. Britain desperately needs a proper social democratic party and the old duffers with their fingernails desperately clinging to the class war and the union "victories" of the seventies have been preventing it for far too long.

 

The Labour Party did it's job well 50 years ago. But we don't send children up chimneys or miners down pits any more.

We would if the Tories felt they could get away with it.

We would if the Tories felt they could get away with it.

Oi! We're not all stuck in the 1800's.......... Where did I leave my cane?

I'm not sure it should. Britain desperately needs a proper social democratic party and the old duffers with their fingernails desperately clinging to the class war and the union "victories" of the seventies have been preventing it for far too long.

 

The Labour Party did it's job well 50 years ago. But we don't send children up chimneys or miners down pits any more.

Wtf are you talking about.

About sums it up Trousers. I don't care what side of the divide you belong to, you have to expect an opposition to be just that and people like Kendall and Harman...well, they just appear gutless to me and clearly a lot of others and maybe Labour will be sidelined for a decade or so but at least they'll understand who they are and where they came from and stopped trying to be something they are not.

About sums it up Trousers. I don't care what side of the divide you belong to, you have to expect an opposition to be just that and people like Kendall and Harman...well, they just appear gutless to me and clearly a lot of others and maybe Labour will be sidelined for a decade or so but at least they'll understand who they are and where they came from and stopped trying to be something they are not.

What does that even mean? Sorry, the Jeremy Corbyn campaign does not have a monopoly on what the Labour party "is" or "is not".

People on the social democratic end of the party are just as much Labour as those on the far left. The shrill social media idiots screaming "Tory" to any Labour person not supporting Corbyn is pathetic beyond belief.

The "something" the Labour party is supposed to "be" is a political party representing working people and social justice. Some of us would like to see that Labour party in a position where it can actually put that world view into some kind of action, like actually being the government, and trying to improve the country and people's lives.

The fact that you are happy to see the party "sidelined" just to make a point just feels like walking away from those in need and condemning the country to 15 years of Tory-led government, for cosy simplicity of complaining from the sidelines.

Best not accuse other people of being gutless, when you are recommending the most gutless course of action of the lot. Let's not even try and change the country, but lets just complain and "work out who we are and where we came from". For the love of god.

Don't you dare try and call others gutless when you have just expressed such comfort at just chucking away the next election. Ridiculous.

What does that even mean? Sorry, the Jeremy Corbyn campaign does not have a monopoly on what the Labour party "is" or "is not".

 

People on the social democratic end of the party are just as much Labour as those on the far left. The shrill social media idiots screaming "Tory" to any Labour person not supporting Corbyn is pathetic beyond belief.

 

The "something" the Labour party is supposed to "be" is a political party representing working people and social justice. Some of us would like to see that Labour party in a position where it can actually put that world view into some kind of action, like actually being the government, and trying to improve the country and people's lives.

 

The fact that you are happy to see the party "sidelined" just to make a point just feels like walking away from those in need and condemning the country to 15 years of Tory-led government, for cosy simplicity of complaining from the sidelines.

 

Best not accuse other people of being gutless, when you are recommending the most gutless course of action of the lot. Let's not even try and change the country, but lets just complain and "work out who we are and where we came from". For the love of god.

 

Don't you dare try and call others gutless when you have just expressed such comfort at just chucking away the next election. Ridiculous.

I will call them whatever I like if they forget why they were voted out and repeat the mistakes they made before. Cobyn doesn't have a monopoly on the Labour party but his values are darnslight closer to the values of the Labour party than someone like Harman or Kendall who essentially say "ok, even though most Labour voters abstained because they didn't know what the heck we stood for, we'll pretend we got a battering and just allow the government to do what the heck it likes" now, in my opinion and clearly most others....maybe not yourself CB....But according to the current polling, most others...That is quite disgraceful and not what an opposition should be doing.

I will call them whatever I like if they forget why they were voted out and repeat the mistakes they made before. Cobyn doesn't have a monopoly on the Labour party but his values are darnslight closer to the values of the Labour party than someone like Harman or Kendall who essentially say "ok, even though most Labour voters abstained because they didn't know what the heck we stood for, we'll pretend we got a battering and just allow the government to do what the heck it likes" now, in my opinion and clearly most others....maybe not yourself CB....But according to the current polling, most others...That is quite disgraceful and not what an opposition should be doing.

The problem with this type of argument is that the next election won't be decided by committed ''labour voters'' but rather by swing voters in what are now Tory marginals. Standing on a hard-left platform of mass renationalisation, closer ties with Putin's Russia and support for Hamas I can't see Jeremy Corbyn winning many/any of these key voters around frankly. More importantly I don't hear any independent observer of the British political scene saying he's likely to either. The Labour Party is facing the political abyss.

Now as a 'old school' socialist you may well share his values and therefore support him. You may even be quite prepared to see the Labour Party reduced to a powerless 'talking shop' for decades to come as long as the party remains faithful to its founding principles. Ok then. Please accept however that others on here want to see the British people given a real choice at the next general election as to who they want to govern them. Indeed, the health of our democracy depends upon this.

I will call them whatever I like if they forget why they were voted out and repeat the mistakes they made before. Cobyn doesn't have a monopoly on the Labour party but his values are darnslight closer to the values of the Labour party than someone like Harman or Kendall who essentially say "ok, even though most Labour voters abstained because they didn't know what the heck we stood for, we'll pretend we got a battering and just allow the government to do what the heck it likes" now, in my opinion and clearly most others....maybe not yourself CB....But according to the current polling, most others...That is quite disgraceful and not what an opposition should be doing.

Harriet Harman isn't close to the values of the Labour party? Okay then. Just a lifetime of campaigning for social justice and just the small matter of shadowing or running pretty much all the departments of state. Nah, she's a Tory because some dribblers on Twitter said so.

And the person not only recommending we not only "just allow the government to do what the heck it likes" but also not being bothered about removing them from office in 2020 is you, not me. You.

I want the Tories out in 2020, you are prioritising the Labour party having a lovely chat.

The problem with this type of argument is that the next election won't be decided by committed ''labour voters'' but rather by swing voters in what are now Tory marginals. Standing on a hard-left platform of mass renationalisation, closer ties with Putin's Russia and support for Hamas I can't see Jeremy Corbyn winning many/any of these key voters around frankly. More importantly I don't hear any independent observer of the British political scene saying he's likely to either. The Labour Party is facing the political abyss.

 

Now as a 'old school' socialist you may well share his values and therefore support him. You may even be quite prepared to see the Labour Party reduced to a powerless 'talking shop' for decades to come as long as the party remains faithful to its founding principles. Ok then. Please accept however that others on here want to see the British people given a real choice at the next general election as to who they want to govern them. Indeed, the health of our democracy depends upon this.

Indeed. Some poor souls have seen 50 Labour activists clapping and cheering Corbyn at a Labour meeting in the back room of a Labour club and have decided that represents the UK electorate.

It's like a low budget version of Cleggmania.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11806571/We-Tories-are-in-a-state-of-disbelief-about-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

I was planning to watch Jaws for the first time tonight. Thanks a bunch.

I was planning to watch Jaws for the first time tonight. Thanks a bunch.

Read the book instead, there's more sex in it.

Read the book instead, there's more sex in it.

Yeah but Hooper dies and the shark doesn't explode (sorry Fry). The film is better IMO.

Read the book instead, there's more sex in it.

Sex between sharks is very short and very wet.

What is great about this, is that anyone with three quid can participate and feel a part of the banishment of the Labour party to the political wilderness for the next 10 years. At last, this bunch of hypocritical career politicians and their union dinosaur chums will be able to demonstrate that they are all neo-Marxist ideology with no grounding in the new realities of the classless society we have in the UK, from a position where they can no longer do any further damage to the economy and society in general.

The Tories will set about representing the new, socially mobile, working/middle class and make a difference, if they have any sense and Jezbollah will be skewered weekly at PM's question time if we can get him elected leader. A slow death to this horrible political party that brought us financial ruin, child abuse in Rotherham and an uncontrolled immigration policy, is all they deserve.

Erm, whilst I have little time for the Labour Party as you know, some factual inaccuracies there on the economic side of things. Firstly, whilst Labour deserve a lot of stick for their appalling lack of oversight of Fred the Shred and in particular self-certification mortgages (the UK's equivalent of sub-prime and there were numerous warnings 2003-7 about it), neither of the main parties has a great economic track-record. For every of Labour's numerous economic bloopers - and there are plenty to choose from (Wilson's delayed devaluation, the infamous 1975 budget by Healey leading to 83% top rate of tex and 98% on investments) - there is an equivalent Tory shocker (Barber and Heath's reckless credit boom after Jenkins had left a surplus by the 1970 election, Lawson shadowing the DM, late 1980s poor regulation of consumer credit).

Whilst I find the Tories more credible on the economy overall, facts get in the way of your partisan statements I'm afraid.

Secondly, CEO pay has been reported to be 166 times the average wage today. Whilst I'm all in favour of the best people being rewarded for high performance, that simply isn't sustainable if there is to be genuine social mobility during the hoped economic recovery. There has to be far more 'trickle down' than that for the economy to recover in a robust way, no point having a recovery built on huge amounts of consumer credit (see Thatcher and Blair eras). The recent move to spread the living wage is welcome but far more needs to be done.

Re: Rotherham, have a look at the discourse on the likes of Savile and Cyril Smith, not to mention the (hopefully untrue) allegations about senior conservatives. It was sickening but was a result of local and systematic failures at both local and national level by all parties.

What does that even mean? Sorry, the Jeremy Corbyn campaign does not have a monopoly on what the Labour party "is" or "is not".

 

People on the social democratic end of the party are just as much Labour as those on the far left. The shrill social media idiots screaming "Tory" to any Labour person not supporting Corbyn is pathetic beyond belief.

 

The "something" the Labour party is supposed to "be" is a political party representing working people and social justice. Some of us would like to see that Labour party in a position where it can actually put that world view into some kind of action, like actually being the government, and trying to improve the country and people's lives.

 

The fact that you are happy to see the party "sidelined" just to make a point just feels like walking away from those in need and condemning the country to 15 years of Tory-led government, for cosy simplicity of complaining from the sidelines.

 

Best not accuse other people of being gutless, when you are recommending the most gutless course of action of the lot. Let's not even try and change the country, but lets just complain and "work out who we are and where we came from". For the love of god.

 

Don't you dare try and call others gutless when you have just expressed such comfort at just chucking away the next election. Ridiculous.

Couldn't agree more CB. Whilst I have no love for Labour, it would be an appalling vista for democracy if the current administration have no effective challenge, especially with the LDs decimated and rebuilding completely. Dislike Gordon Brown but he made some good points yesterday and glad someone had the guts to point out Corbyn's hypocracy over his rappraochment with Hamas and Hezbollah.

We all saw what happened last time Labour drifted to the left and had a civil war - Thatcher squandered her initial few years' work which benefited the majority (taming the TUs) with increasingly extremist ideological policies (Poll Tax) which benefited no-one and cost billions of pounds to put right and billions more in uncollected monies. It's not healthy for anyone and hopefully Labour sort it out although quite how they managed to make the leadership election process so open and chaotic gives you a flavour of what a Miliband government might have been like.

I like Jeremy Corbyn and hope he wins - there's not much I've found to disagree with him over. I also think he stands a decent chance of attracting the majority of the non-tory vote, and certainly working with the non-tory MPs (except that UKIP one) so I don't think it would be electoral suicide to have him as leader although that would be a risk. Crucially though I don't see the other candidates as having any better prospects and if they do win then the malaise within the party will continue - you'd certainly see a large proportion of activists apathetic and unenthusiastic. Least with Corbyn it would be reinvigorated and more united.

I also think that Corbyn is the best chance of giving Cameron a hard time and being an effective opposition leader - as a debater rather than image he's been quite effective so far. Worst comes to the worst then Corbyn would probably be replaced as leader before the next election anyway - it's a long way off and by that time maybe somebody better will have come along. Gamble worth taking and in the meantime at least we're talking policies that it seems a lot of people who joined the Labour Party actually agree with. There's also the possibility that the whole political argument could swing back a bit to the left - I'm fed up with everyone trying to appear as extreme as UKIP or tory right-wingers.

Course it's all a matter of opinion. Each to their own and all that.

I like Jeremy Corbyn and hope he wins - there's not much I've found to disagree with him over. I also think he stands a decent chance of attracting the majority of the non-tory vote, and certainly working with the non-tory MPs (except that UKIP one) so I don't think it would be electoral suicide to have him as leader although that would be a risk. Crucially though I don't see the other candidates as having any better prospects and if they do win then the malaise within the party will continue - you'd certainly see a large proportion of activists apathetic and unenthusiastic. Least with Corbyn it would be reinvigorated and more united.

 

I also think that Corbyn is the best chance of giving Cameron a hard time and being an effective opposition leader - as a debater rather than image he's been quite effective so far. Worst comes to the worst then Corbyn would probably be replaced as leader before the next election anyway - it's a long way off and by that time maybe somebody better will have come along. Gamble worth taking and in the meantime at least we're talking policies that it seems a lot of people who joined the Labour Party actually agree with. There's also the possibility that the whole political argument could swing back a bit to the left - I'm fed up with everyone trying to appear as extreme as UKIP or tory right-wingers.

 

Course it's all a matter of opinion. Each to their own and all that.

This!

I have been warned that fellow left-wingers have been banned on this site for their views before (and well, if CB is left wing, let's just say he likes to take his biscuits and keep quiet about it lest they jump on him and call him a socialist...which, by the way is not a bad thing at all, this country owes a great deal to socialism.)

My point about Harriet Harman was this CB Fry, I previously had noticed both Cameron and Osbourne mocking her for being "richer and posher than them" but I ignored it, thought perhaps she'd gotten a conscience but then when she decided to roll over and essentially take it (the welfare bill) up the backside and the disgrace that was the abstaining....which even the Lib Dems did not do), I kinda got a bit cross.

I think her interptation of why Labour lost and how we should just except everything that comes before us is abhorrent and in my view and a lot of others if the polls are correct is that Labour voters essentially abstained from voting because they were sick of more of the same. I pointed out to another Labourite I know that they "lost Scotland, are losing the North and cannot win in the Tory heartland of London and the South East" so they NEED a rethink, they can't carry on the way they are because they'll lose...again and again. They'll be out in the cold for at least a decade so why no rediscover who they are? Also, if Corbyn's views on QE are so wrong why has the Financial Times just agreed whole-heartedly with them.

And finally, I may be a socialist (not an extreme left one I might add) but are you seriously OK with ignoring the treatment of the disabled and the young and working (poor and mininum wage who will now lose their tax credits so that work will definitely not pay?)...Oh yes, finally, GM? Classless society? You are taking the michael right?

Couldn't agree more CB. Whilst I have no love for Labour, it would be an appalling vista for democracy if the current administration have no effective challenge, especially with the LDs decimated and rebuilding completely. Dislike Gordon Brown but he made some good points yesterday and glad someone had the guts to point out Corbyn's hypocracy over his rappraochment with Hamas and Hezbollah.

I have to agree with this.

A strong and effective opposition leads to better government. A government that is held to account, with the threat of losing power, is far better than a government being opposed by someone who is completely unelectable

I have been warned that fellow left-wingers have been banned on this site for their views before

Did I just read that correctly?

Did I just read that correctly?

As have extreme right wingers, Dune springs to mind. But no, they are being oppressed for their political standing..... it suits their modus operandi.

Please Hockey-Saint, that kind of remark should be beneath you.

This is Hockey Saint. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11804199/How-to-speak-like-a-Corbynite-a-helpful-guide.html.

This is Hockey Saint. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11804199/How-to-speak-like-a-Corbynite-a-helpful-guide.html.

Uncanny

Uncanny

Is isn't it?

Right, I'll clear it up a bit:

I do not agree with his views on Trident. I think his quantitative easing suggestions are unproven (although, remember, banks make money out of thin air and if this is the case, it makes a so-called country's debt look a bit silly). He's old, maybe too old for leadership but compared to the other candidates his honesty shines through. I was actually a bit worried you might have found the link of me in the Guardian suggesting to Kendall that "if all she wants is power with no clear strategy or plan then she's doomed". I think Burnham would probably be the most sensible choice and the other one, well, maybe not.

I ask you this then, would prefer 2 parties so ideologically close together that you could barely tell the difference (i.e. the US system or the pre-war UK one where Churchill swapped between the liberals and the conservatives several times?). I enjoyed how he was the only one to have the bottle to suggest, when asked what he thought of Cameron taking all those kids out of poverty that Osbourne has done a superb job at moving the goal posts. I also think it's completely insidious to suggest that you wish to make work pay then remove working tax credits from those on the minimum wage whilst boasting about a "living wage" which essentially isn't really any different.

So no, it's not all smiley and happy faces in wonderland, not for many people it isn't and it certainly ISN'T a classless society Guided Missile.

Jeremy does appear quite popular doesn't he? Especially for someone so unelectable. All this attracting people to join the party, playing to packed out houses and stuff like that - well, it's just plain silly. No one wins elections by being popular.....

Jeremy does appear quite popular doesn't he? Especially for someone so unelectable. All this attracting people to join the party, playing to packed out houses and stuff like that - well, it's just plain silly. No one wins elections by being popular.....

Yeah, that's how you win elections. Being popular with grass roots Labour activists. Look out swing voters of Nuneaton and Worcester, the relentless Corbyn winning machine is coming for ya.

Jeremy does appear quite popular doesn't he? Especially for someone so unelectable. All this attracting people to join the party, playing to packed out houses and stuff like that - well, it's just plain silly. No one wins elections by being popular.....

Yeah, that's how you win elections. Being popular with grass roots Labour activists. Look out swing voters of Nuneaton and Worcester, the relentless Corbyn winning machine is coming for ya.

That's more like it. I think Scotland appears to be warming to him too (they should, his ideas are essentially theirs too....don't forget that young SNP MP who's opening speech in the commons was a Tony Benn quote).

As things stand at the moment he is unelectable. The only way a Labour Party run by him would get in is if the next bank crash happens before the next general election.

As things stand at the moment he is unelectable. The only way a Labour Party run by him would get in is if the next bank crash happens before the next general election.

Someone suggested something similar at work today actually....You know, a suggestion of something like a black Wednesday is it? Something that would show that they can't deal with the economy either. But as I've said before, they probably will not win the next election...They certainly won't staying on the new labour track.

Someone suggested something similar at work today actually....You know, a suggestion of something like a black Wednesday is it? Something that would show that they can't deal with the economy either. But as I've said before, they probably will not win the next election...They certainly won't staying on the new labour track.

They're not already (the Tories that is)

They're not already (the Tories that is)

Source?

Source?

Hmm. Haven't we had this debate with the green shoots thread? I think the British public have conclusively shown who they would prefer to be running the economy...

Hmm. Haven't we had this debate with the green shoots thread? I think the British public have conclusively shown who they would prefer to be running the economy...

Yeah, at the moment. They preferred Labour three elections in a row not long ago.

Source?

The fact that the debt has not been reduced and is still growing whilst punitive measures hitting those worst off are suggesting that doctrine has a higher importance than bringing the debt down trousers. Either way, neither party appears to be particularly good at it...What Gordon Brown selling off all our gold for virtually nothing and whilst promoting "prudence" as chancellor spending like crazy as PM.

(I've equalled that out for fairness)

The fact that the debt has not been reduced and is still growing

Debt will continue to grow whilst the country is in deficit.

Debt will continue to grow whilst the country is in deficit.

It will. But I think there are bigger savings to be made rather than sticking to conservative doctrine and hitting welfare.

Been a union member for over 20 years and a Labour voter for 27 years. If Corbyn wins, there is not a hope in hell that he will ever get my vote at a General Election.

Burnham just been on the news seemingly sucking Corbyn off. F*cking sickening.

Been a union member for over 20 years and a Labour voter for 27 years. If Corbyn wins, there is not a hope in hell that he will ever get my vote at a General Election.

Burnham just been on the news seemingly sucking Corbyn off. F*cking sickening.

So. as a Labour voter and union member...what puts you off about them you know.....turning to the left?...I mean, until Blair radically transformed them into essentially a liberal party in 97, that's what they've always been...or did you secret wish they'd turn to the right?

It's just odd to me as it's what it says on the tin. I mean, if I wanted conservative, that's what I'd vote for...wasn't that the moral of the election?

It will. But I think there are bigger savings to be made rather than sticking to conservative doctrine and hitting welfare.

I respect your point of view.

Yeah, at the moment. They preferred Labour three elections in a row not long ago.

The economy wasn't the main issue back then. It clearly was during this election.

So. as a Labour voter and union member...what puts you off about them you know.....turning to the left?...I mean, until Blair radically transformed them into essentially a liberal party in 97, that's what they've always been...or did you secret wish they'd turn to the right?

 

It's just odd to me as it's what it says on the tin. I mean, if I wanted conservative, that's what I'd vote for...wasn't that the moral of the election?

This could be quite symptomatic of Labour's future. While the initial principles of the party were founded in Union activity there is a generation that has only known a Blairite Labour Party and that does not identify with a more traditional left wing ethos. While there has been a large ground swell of membership in Labour it doesn't necessarily indicate a wider spread validation of the shift to their roots that now seems inevitable.